first meeting with co parent counselor

[david]

The co parent counselor was court ordered since I filed for a change in custody over two years ago. Ex tried delaying and we finally saw a judge in Sept this year. Judge postponed because my atty had so much evidence that he figured it was going to be an all day affair and there wasn't enough time that day. He made a temp order giving me the extra time I was seeking and also ordered a co parent counselor.

I didn't say much and let ex take charge. I know ex's tactics well enough now that I thought this was the best course of action. Ex did not let me down. She blamed S11, S16, and me for all the problems. The counselor pointed out that the things she was saying were innuendos suggesting that I was causing these problems the she brought up. He got it so I let her talk. It was only an hour and I was watching the clock because I had to pick the boys up at school today. I was diplomatic and pointed out my interpretations of events. I made sure I also pointed out that all my interpretations could be verified by solid evidence if it was required.

Ex insisted the judge gave me extra time because I refused to budge. The counselor pointed out that even if that were true it probably would become a permanent thing when we did go in front of a judge. He even went so far as to imply that her atty wasn't doing a good job by permitting that to happen. Ex did not/ could not hear what he was saying. He then put her on the spot and asked her if she was against the extra time for me and the kids. Ex then stated that she didn't think that was the issue but rather that I was always sabotaging her parenting skills ? I remained calm. Ex got a little agitated but was pretty calm during the hour.

Ex lied so much it was incredible. She either believes what she is saying or has no clue that she is that transparent. I don't really care which one it is anymore so that is a non issue except for the fact that she simply is unable to be honest. That is my main point that I decided to focus on and that will be in the second or third meeting.

I think the biggest thing I have learned the last few years is to stay focused on our kids and become truely emotionally detached. As much as ex initially appears that way she can't help herself but attack.

It's that frog and scorpion fable again and again. The difference now is I am no longer choosing to be the frog.

[Ishenuts]

David - you are very lucky to have gotten a good parental coordinator. I haven't been so lucky. Ours entertains any and all complaints that my uNPDexH throws my way. He rages at me, calls me a horrible mother because I refuse to "parent" as he dictates, alienates the children, lies pathologically (I have written proof) calls me names... .and it goes on and on. She expects us to "get along" and co-parent, which is impossible. He calls meetings for the most ridiculous changes he wants to the parenting plan. She won't tell him, "No", so we meet and it cost me $75 every time. Nothing ever gets resolved unless I just throw in the towel in frustration.

He is very manipulative, and has control over our children (12yo b/g twins). Our son mirrors his behavior towards me.  Our PC recommends family therapy, with the uNBPexH! Thereby giving him the ammunition to further covertly manipulate our son. It's crazy!

I keep hoping she will see it. Still waiting, and its been 2.5 years. This whole existence stinks!

[ForeverDad]

Nothing ever gets resolved unless I just throw in the towel in frustration.

In years past I've complained about my ex's actions and often it's because I didn't set good boundaries, so my lawyer sometimes told me, ":)on't deviate from the order."

Your ex is playing a no-win game.  Maybe he'll never stop, but he certainly won't stop if he expects you to eventually "just throw in the towel".

[david]

FD is right. Until I stood up for our kids and myself nothing changed. Boundaries are crucial. I will not accept what I believe to not be in our kids best interest. When I stood firm I noticed the courts listened or at least gave me what I was seeking, ex sends nasty emails but nothing more, my atty does what I want and I make sure he understands where I am coming from.

The biggest take I got from the meeting the other day is ex is still blaming and taking no personal responsibility for her actions or behaviors. It's either my fault or one of the kids faults for anything "negative" that happens. She never has a solution or idea on how to repair/fix the negative things.

The only positive things she said at the meeting were about herself.

The big problem I have seen with co parent coordinators, counselors, custody evaluators is there are good ones and there are bad ones and no way for me to figure out which is which until you are actually dealing with them. My new atty has been good at helping me find good people to deal with and that has been the biggest plus for the kids and me.

We recently finished a custody eval. Ex actually threatened the evaluator with legal action at the last meeting when she realized it wasn't going well for her. I just sat there and let her show her true colors. She helped my position more than I could have done on my own. I never attacked her or her ideas. I did, however, state what I thought about whatever was being discussed. When I was challenged as to whether I thought ex was wrong or right I usually stated that ex was going to do what she was going to do in her residence and there was little I could do about it so it was a non issue as far as I was concerned unless she did something to the level that a court would be swayed. That seemed to satisfy the evaluator.

[ForeverDad]

Search on the phrase Extinction Burst I have linked here.  A short description is the overreaction of the other person trying to manipulate, pressure, even demand, a return to the old controller/appeaser and dictator/target dynamic.  If you appear reasonable ( = weak ) or you give in to the pressure, then it teaches the other that more pressuring will always get more rewards.

So although it is hard to set firm boundaries of what you will or will not do or agree with that is precisely what you must do.  Any indication of weakness or wavering will enable him to keep using this behavior since the other will know it still works.

Choose your boundaries well, decide which you will defend as important and which to let pass as mere pot shots and skirmishes and not battles.  After I got my final decree my major boundary was "My parenting time is MY parenting time."  She could guilt me all she wanted but I had to hold to that.  For example, when she wanted to trade time, I quickly learned to get my traded time first or else I might not ever get it.

There's a reason we're told not to feed the wild animals, if we do then they'll surely come back for more and more.

You have a choice, stick to your boundaries or be an enabler.  Yes, it is tough when the PC or mediator glibly says, "What's wrong with this?  It's such a small thing.  Why don't you two just get along?"  (Um, that's precisely why the other is the Ex!)  The problem is they don't understand the dynamic, that acquiescing only encourages and enables more unilateral boundary pushing.  That is, that the other always pushes for what the other wants but you never are able to get accommodation for what you want.  Be prepared with a list of items that you wanted but that the other snubbed, ignored, refused or whatever.  Likely the PC, mediator or court is just looking at issues separately, not as a whole that reveals his pattern of reality distortion.  In addition, you can state that the other is doing this to create more legal expenses for you.

[livednlearned]

I agree with david, that there are good PCs and bad ones. But sometimes you can make headway with a bad one, if you stick to an algorithm of sorts.

I used certain words to get my points across without having to look like I was the trouble maker (ie. blamer).

"Because this is a high-conflict divorce, setting and sticking to boundaries works best. That's why I prefer to not deviate from what the court ordered."

"Can you give me suggestions on how to communicate so that it does not dysregulate N/BPDx?"

"You alleged that I did not take our son to the pediatrician. Because the order does not state that it is necessary to notify the other parent, I took him on Friday to see Dr. Who because having him be seen and treated before the weekend was in the best interests of son."

I noticed that my PC started to take cues from me. If you still feel attached to your ex's reactive emotional state, the PC will likely mediate more, and that's not good. That means the PC thinks you lack skills to defuse the situation. What you want is a PC who believes you are the emotionally mature person at the table. That means detaching emotionally so that you and the PC (who is also emotionally detached) can see eye to eye. Everything is about 1. following the order; 2. doing what is in the best interests of your child; and 3. presenting reasonable solutions (either communication tools or enforcing boundaries).

If something falls outside of what the order states, you focus on what is best for the child, and you either suggest a solution that is best for your child, or you ask the PC to suggest something. If your ex makes false allegations, you refer to them that way. "The allegation that I did xyz is false for these reasons. I did abc because it was in the best interests of the child. Since this item is not listed specifically in the order, what is your proposed solution to avoid this conflict in the future?" If it is something you are not comfortable with, you can always say that it sounds like a major adjustment to the custody order and that you would like to either discuss it with your lawyer or take some time to think about it.

[david]

Lnl, I like use of the "words". I never thought of using dysregulate other then on this site before. It's another light bulb going off in my head. Thanks.

It made me laugh because I don't think ex would hear it and if she did it would dysregulate her right there. Let the counselor see what I am dealing with. When I went to the custody eval my ex got dysregulated when she realized things weren't going well. I knew what was happening and I said very little. It was an exchange between her and the evaluator so I stayed out of it. When she went into threatening mode I nearly burst out laughing because I knew she just exposed her true self. Honestly, I almost burst out loud laughing. I actually closed my eyes and focused on something completely different to keep from laughing. The evaluator handled her very well and within minutes she stopped her threats.

From this first meeting I didn't notice any change in her tactics. She really has a limited range so I didn't expect anything new. The thing I have become conscious of is that the more detached I have become the less affect she has on me and that only makes her more likely to dysregulate. I think I seen, on this site or somewhere else, about power struggles in dysfunctional relationships. My ex "feels" like she no longer has any power and that seems to trigger her.

[david]

I think what happened at the meeting started to sink into ex's head. I received 5 emails late yesterday evening and three very early this morning. I guess she didn't sleep.

The emails are full of veiled allegations and lots of confusion. She has now stooped to blaming my mother and S11. My mother has dementia so she can't defend herself and our S11 is still too young to fully defend himself from his mom's allegations. Of course, I was also included in the blame. I only really needed to answer two of them and I did that about 20 minutes ago when I checked my emails. I simply answered one with a no and the other I had to answer with six sentences. I try to keep it to about three sentences or less but this email was rather long and went all over the place.

I used to get about 40 emails a  month and that went down to about five a month around two years ago so this increase is significant.

Staying detached and only communicating through email really does help show what is going on.

[Nope]

Fresh evidence of distorted and disorganized thinking is always a good thing when you have professionals involved. It was another member who first said that it isn't so much that we win in these cases as it is that they lose for themselves by showing the court their own disordered behavior.

In my case the (I'm a step mom) the GAL was brought up to speed just in time for Mother's Day. We had sent the GAL a recording of the BPD mom screaming at DH during his court mandated phone call with the kids. the year before. It was clear from that recording that the children were present. We sent the BPD and the GAL an email asking to move the call date this year so as to avoid another triggering Mother's Day repeate episode. Right with the GAL included on the email, after the GAL put in her two cents agreeing that the call time should be moved, she flatly refused to move it. The GAL was livid. We just sat back and watched the BPD self destruct.

[david]

The funny thing is that what the counselor challenged her on is what she is repeating in the emails. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result... . 

The one email I actually replied to the most and actually asked a question (with a question mark) that needed an answer got this response, "Hmmmm interesting. Glad to hear." I have no idea what that means in relation to what I sent and I am quite certain no one else would understand it either.

When I used to get replies like that 7 years ago I was concerned because our boys were only 4 and 9 and the replies were too out there for my comfort. The boys are 16 and 11 now and I feel better because they see things more clearly and I believe are better able at dealing with her. There are others on this site that have much younger children and I understand why they get so anxious.

[Nope]

The one email I actually replied to the most and actually asked a question (with a question mark) that needed an answer got this response, "Hmmmm interesting. Glad to hear." I have no idea what that means in relation to what I sent and I am quite certain no one else would understand it either.

That sounds to me like a self-soothing comment meant to make her feel like she's taken back control. She left it at that in the hopes you'll think she means she's found some weakness in your position and now she can feel good because you will lose sleep trying to figure out what she's discovered. 

[livednlearned]

My ex is also a master of non sensical responses. I think it is a power thing like Nope said.

For ex, I don't know if it is self soothing, though. It was more like he wanted to keep things vaguely menacing so everyone would wonder what he meant and stay negatively engaged and focused on him. He would also answer my questions with a question all the time, probably for the same effect.

[Nope]

My ex is also a master of non sensical responses. I think it is a power thing like Nope said.

For ex, I don't know if it is self soothing, though. It was more like he wanted to keep things vaguely menacing so everyone would wonder what he meant and stay negatively engaged and focused on him. He would also answer my questions with a question all the time, probably for the same effect.

Yup, feeling like you are in a panic over something he said probably sooths him. Because being able to effect you means he is in control of you in his own mind. The reason I think this was more of a false self-soothing from David's ex is because she has no reason to even feel like it might have worked. She probably sat there deluding herself into thinking, "Ha! Now he's wondering what I know that he doesn't! I sure got him! Now he'll lose sleep tonight thinking about something to do with me."

With your ex, LnL, I think sometimes he may delude himself into thinking he said or did something to get under your skin, but sometimes he also doesn't need to because he definitely knows for sure he did. Either way, he feels in control and soothed.

[david]

It might be some kind of self soothing delusion that we are "co parenting" or some kind of power thing. I used to try to figure it out and eventually stopped because I realized I couldn't make sense of it. I used to give some emails to friends asking them what they thought. That was several years ago. I also gave some to my T. That was years ago too. I remember sitting there and seeing the T's face as she was reading it. That was all I needed to know it wasn't me.

I wasn't planning on bringing these emails to the counselor but I am rethinking that. I used some at the custody eval and they helped a lot. A co parent counselor is much different as far as what they are supposed to be doing.

One thought that often crosses my mind is that ex is deliberately sabotaging things to give me more time with the kids so she doesn't have to deal with it. As long as she has someone to blame for "her kids being taken away" she will "feel" okay.

[ForeverDad]

One thought that often crosses my mind is that ex is deliberately sabotaging things to give me more time with the kids so she doesn't have to deal with it. As long as she has someone to blame for "her kids being taken away" she will "feel" okay.

This is likely what many cases described here are all about.  The other parent just doesn't want to look bad and so has to posture for others.  I've even seen, rarely, a few mothers interviewed on TV saying they were okay with the father raising the children and so many other women berated them for it.  I mean, how can it be okay for fathers not to raise their children but if a mother doesn't raise her children then something has to be terribly wrong with her?  Society does have a bit of a double standard when it comes to parenting - a little is okay since men are not women and women aren't men - and consequently so do many people in society.

[livednlearned]

One thought that often crosses my mind is that ex is deliberately sabotaging things to give me more time with the kids so she doesn't have to deal with it. As long as she has someone to blame for "her kids being taken away" she will "feel" okay.

I came to that same conclusion with my ex, david. For N/BPDx, deliberate sabotaging seemed to go hand-in-hand with an increase in claims that he was being victimized. Even worse than that, after the judge awarded N/BPDx visitation, N/BPDx then insisted nothing in the order said that. Except it did. He actually made the argument in front of the judge and my lawyer that the order did not say anything about reinstating visitation. My T suspects he was experiencing psychosis. And then a few months later he filed a motion for contempt against me saying that I had denied him visitation. How could I deny him visitation if he believed it hadn't been reinstated? And how could I deny visitation if he never emailed to make arrangements to see S13?    You guys are the only people who can understand this.

It's magical thinking.