I'm anxious: Time to start with new parent coordinator, and ex is nutty

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Well, our story in a nutshell - I divorced uBPD exH last year, he's high functioning but imagines things, seems to shift from OK to angry/triggered.  He seems to do better when he thinks we might get back together. When he's triggered, he doesn't want our 2 toddlers to go to medical appointments, etc. and doesn't put them first.  He also gets revenge in little ways - calls me during work for info he doesn't really need... .and when we were married he put our baby girl on the edge of a high bed to scare me, then on the floor.  Anyway... .we got divorced and he has the kids every other weekend for one overnight and lives with his parents, and I always worry while they're with him alone, esp because they're so young.

I have always been nervous every time he comes to get them and take them - just worrying if one day he could get sad or suicidal while he has them, or hurt them to get my attention, or something else.  Shrinks have told me I worry about that too much, but I'm the mom and I can't help worry.  Even if his behavior hasn't gone as far as physical stuff, he does things he regrets later.  He was supposed to take the kids trick or treating two weeks ago and he kept talking about how much he was looking forward to it, then he never showed up to pick our son up at day care and meet me, because I think certain things triggered him.  He simply went back to his parents' house and never even called to say he wasn't going to pick our son up like he intended to.  Day care had to call me to get him.

Anyway, we had a parent coordinator for 6 months, she agreed with me on basically everything and saw right away that ex was mentally ill.  But our agreement with her was only 6 months.  I went to court and we got an agreement for a new PC.  We had to find one who's affordable and flexible in terms of time to see us.  ExH also put in that she can't contact his psychologist or psychiatrist, and stupidly I agreed to avoid court.  I am too scared of court, I realize.

Now we have to start with this new person and I called her and left a message.  Haven't heard back from her  yet (not even sure she can see us; if not, we'll keep looking.)  And I'm scared - scared she will take forever to understand what's going on, scared that she's also a mediator and will try to mediate instead of making recommendations in the best interest in the kids, scared that he'll just use this to engage me, and scared that I'll always be... .well, scared, as long as my ex has the kids unsupervised.  He favors our son over the younger daughter, and that bothers me.  He yelled at me a few pickups ago and it made her cry, and she still remembers it and says he's "too loud" to me.

I don't know what kind of advice I want.  Maybe I just want to vent.  maybe I'm beating myself up that I never got a psych eval or didn't demand he get counseling when I had chances.  He is supposed to report once a year that he is seeing his doctors.  I'd love it if the PC says he has to report more often. 

Part of me says I should take the chance, go to court, ask for things (he has to be in counseling and report that he's going, he has to get a psych eval if not), and skip the whole PC.  My big problem was, anything I do triggers him, and he's still going to be seeing the kids while triggered. 

I want to make our situation better, not worse.  I want to stop worrying about what he could do.  I want someone who can see clearly what is going on.  I am just hoping the new PC will make things better and not worse.

[momtara]

Well, our story in a nutshell - I divorced uBPD exH last year, he's high functioning but imagines things, seems to shift from OK to angry/triggered.  He seems to do better when he thinks we might get back together. When he's triggered, he doesn't want our 2 toddlers to go to medical appointments, etc. and doesn't put them first.  He also gets revenge in little ways - calls me during work for info he doesn't really need... .and when we were married he put our baby girl on the edge of a high bed to scare me, then on the floor.  Anyway... .we got divorced and he has the kids every other weekend for one overnight and lives with his parents, and I always worry while they're with him alone, esp because they're so young.

I have always been nervous every time he comes to get them and take them - just worrying if one day he could get sad or suicidal while he has them, or hurt them to get my attention, or something else.  Shrinks have told me I worry about that too much, but I'm the mom and I can't help worry.  Even if his behavior hasn't gone as far as physical stuff, he does things he regrets later.  He was supposed to take the kids trick or treating two weeks ago and he kept talking about how much he was looking forward to it, then he never showed up to pick our son up at day care and meet me, because I think certain things triggered him.  He simply went back to his parents' house and never even called to say he wasn't going to pick our son up like he intended to.  Day care had to call me to get him.

Anyway, we had a parent coordinator for 6 months, she agreed with me on basically everything and saw right away that ex was mentally ill.  But our agreement with her was only 6 months.  I went to court and we got an agreement for a new PC.  We had to find one who's affordable and flexible in terms of time to see us.  ExH also put in that she can't contact his psychologist or psychiatrist, and stupidly I agreed to avoid court.  I am too scared of court, I realize.

Now we have to start with this new person and I called her and left a message.  Haven't heard back from her  yet (not even sure she can see us; if not, we'll keep looking.)  And I'm scared - scared she will take forever to understand what's going on, scared that she's also a mediator and will try to mediate instead of making recommendations in the best interest in the kids, scared that he'll just use this to engage me, and scared that I'll always be... .well, scared, as long as my ex has the kids unsupervised.  He favors our son over the younger daughter, and that bothers me.  He yelled at me a few pickups ago and it made her cry, and she still remembers it and says he's "too loud" to me.

I don't know what kind of advice I want.  Maybe I just want to vent.  maybe I'm beating myself up that I never got a psych eval or didn't demand he get counseling when I had chances.  He is supposed to report once a year that he is seeing his doctors.  I'd love it if the PC says he has to report more often. 

Part of me says I should take the chance, go to court, ask for things (he has to be in counseling and report that he's going, he has to get a psych eval if not), and skip the whole PC.  My big problem was, anything I do triggers him, and he's still going to be seeing the kids while triggered. 

I want to make our situation better, not worse.  I want to stop worrying about what he could do.  I want someone who can see clearly what is going on.  I am just hoping the new PC will make things better and not worse.

[Swiggle]

It sucks knowing that doing the right thing will trigger him. I guess my thoughts are, if there is a good chance you could get what you wanted in court I would do it. I mean he is still acting out, playing games and that is always going to continue regardless of the situtaion. I would look at it in that if their was a light at the end of the tunnel and I knew that I could win full custody with limited visitation with my kids, i would deal with the fallout in the meantime. I look at it like ripping off a band aid, it can be done slow and painful or fast and efficient. If you fear he may harm them if he gets triggered that is is scary to think about, but he could harm them even if things are status quo.   it is never an easy decision when dealing with these people.

maybe you'll get a good laugh from a text exchange I had with my uNPex this morning.

Me: D didn't have her winter coat this morning so she had to wear mine. She mentioned that Sally wore it. I'll need someone to drop it off today at some point.

(sally is her dad's gf's daughter, but that isn't her real name)

Ex: No problem

then 10 min later

Ex: and by the way sally doesn't have it. It is hanging in grandmas closet with all the other coats! call grandma if you don't believe me. So maybe you can stop by and pick it up on your way home!

I was like wow someone is in a pissy mood this morning . His behavior lately has been so I don't know, all over the place. One day he is sending text in a happy tone with smileys then the next he is being a dick.   I can't keep up with his moods .

Swiggle

[momtara]

Oh brother.  Did you  need to even give him all that info?  I guess you did, or he would have started asking weird questions.

You might be right about court.  The thing is, I never know exactly what to ask for.  I think I could probably just threaten him with court and get the same thing - send a lawyer letter. 

I guess the main thing I want are reports every 3 months that he is going to therapy regularly. 

[david]

Not knowing what you want from court will probably be a waste of money. You really need a plan for court and also what you can expect. I spent a large sum of money the first few years and I wasted most of it because I wasn't focused on what was best for our kids. I was reacting to ex and the fears I had about her doing something.

I filed, as you probable seen in other posts, for a change in custody in Aug 2012. We have a hearing next month. Ex was very good at dragging things out as much as possible in the courts but her options are exhausted. I already have what I was asking for but it is a temp order. However, since the temp order our kids grades in school have improved and that was what was in my petition in 2012 so I am fairly certail the order will become permanent.

It wasn't until I was more focused that I could affect a positive change.

I still have worries for our two boys but 1) they are older now and have learned coping strategies with their mom 2) the extra time helped me gather overwhelming evidence, with the help of my ex's behaviors, to the point my atty and I feel things will work out

The pc could become another piece of the puzzle to help you. Stay focused on the kids and let ex do his thing to show who he really is. I used to think my ex would behave herself in front of pc's, mediators, etc but I trigger her and she reacts. I stay calm and am very careful not to point an accusing finger. I do not shy away from pointing out facts. She can't behave because it is who she is.

The fact that h would only agree provided the pc did not talk to any of his health care docs can be brought up. Asking why would put h in a difficult position where he may show his colors.

If you think it best that somehow there is a way to know if he is going to therapy on a regular basis than bring that subject up and ask why he doesn't think that is in the children's best interest. He will; either have a reason that makes sense to you and the pc (unlikely) or the pc will figure out he is hiding something. That combined with his behavior should be enough for an observant/qualified pc.

Also, is the current pc not allowed to communicate with the first pc ? Might be another way around the restriction.

I write things down and then put them in order. I read it and also have it with me so I don't forget things.

[momtara]

That's very helpful, David.  Thanks.  Yes, I will make that case.  The PC wants to meet with both of us individually first.

I talked to the PC today.  She is knowledgeable enough, but not as swift as the last one.  Every time my ex takes the kids, I am going to keep being scared.  But I've said that over and over here... .  I just have to stay vigilant about his moods, and if he does something bad, I withhold them. 

[david]

I was much more concerned when our boys were younger. When ex first left they were 4.5 and 8.5. Today they bare 16 and 11.

Some of the things I did in the beginning was to address my concerns with them. I did not say things about their mom. When a moment presented itself I would respond.

We used to go to the library a lot. There was a person with schizophrenia that also went. His behavior was different. The boys noticed it and we talked about that. I explained what schizophrenia was and how people would hear and see things that others would not. I explained that they were usually not violent but you still needed to be aware. It wasn't directly about their mom but it was discussions about what to do in such and such a situation. Some of those situations were what I was concerned ex would do.

I talked about how they are brothers and how it is good to stick together if they are ever in a difficult situation.

When the school talked about fire safety in a house I continued it with them. If they were someplace they felt unsafe what steps they could use to get away and contact the police or myself. I always stressed sticking together in those situations.

Slowly those things sank in and I think they helped.

Your kids are still very young and I understand the concerns. I had them too. It does get better. Don't forget that fact. You may not be able to completely protect them but you can guide them to make good decisions in the situations you are concerned about without blaming their dad. It is a delicate balance but I believe I did it pretty good.

The other plus to this is that my relationship with our boys is much stronger then it would have been had ex and I still been together. I learned different ways to parent and became a much better parent then before. I owe that to my ex as crazy as that sounds.

Nothing major ever happened with the boys and their mom. She did use alienation tactics a lot in the beginning. She still yells at them, blames them, ignores them, blames me when she is stressed, etc.

When I got past the fears and started looking for solutions I started finding them. I made mistakes along the way but I do believe I kept them to a minimum.

The last custody eval I went to I gave the evaluator evidence of things that happened that I would not be using in court since it would not be considered relevant in court. It was relevant to the kids best interests though and the evaluator would consider it important. I had solid proof. If you have recordings of h yelling etc you can let the eval hear them when h is not present. If you are documenting you can make a page as concise as possible with time, date, what happened briefly to show your concerns and that they are not a one time occurrence. They appear random to you so you have no way of knowing when and at what intensity they will occur. You can say that you believe you made a mistake about not wanting the pc to be able to talk to his docs but that you thought that was the only way you could get a pc. You've said that before on posts and there is nothing wrong with the facts.

[momtara]

Very helpful.  Thanks.  The PC really isn't an evaluator, but hopefully she will make some sort of recommendation that won't trigger him so badly that it all gets worse.  I am so full of anxiety today.  I don't want to look back and wish I'd done more.  Just don't know what to really do.  For now I guess I'll talk to the PC and see what happens.

[david]

I live in Pa. The state supreme court ruled last year that judges are the only ones that can change custody or the conditions of custody. Prior to that ruling pc's were allowed to make adjustments to the court order. Another thing pc's were allowed to do was talk to the judge and explain the situation. You could then go to court and have the pc as your witness to make major changes. I don't know if that is the case in your state.

If your state is similar than you can lay the groundwork with the pc to change things.

If the pc makes a recommendation that triggers him I would view that as a plus. You are able to establish through a court recognized credible witness that things need to be adjusted. If that happens then pointing it out to the pc and offering a reasonable solution will be beneficial. Courts prefer the parents making the decisions. It takes the responsibility away from them and also gives the parents the proper respect in making decisions for their kids. If one parent is reasonable and the other is not the courts will follow the reasonable parent.

I don't like the way the system operates by dragging things out but it does give the reasonable person time to make their case. The more evidence you have the more sure the court will be in it's decision. It took me a couple of years to adjust my way of thinking to get this outlook. That lowered my stress level which snowballed into me making better and clearer decisions. Now, when I believe I am right I don't back down like I used to. Now I have answers to the other sides objections. I have no problem compromising provided my compromise doesn't dismiss my concerns. That is the line you need to walk. If you don't like the compromise than ask how that helps remedy your concerns.

I have a video and an audio recorder with me whenever I am near ex. Ex does not like it and has brought it up many times. It is illegal in my state to record without a court order. My view has been that recording protects ex if I truly am the monster she portrays me to be and also protects me if I am not. I also have said that I have no issues with her recording me during those times. One judge appeared angry with my answer but did not tell me I wasn't allowed to continue recording. He did yell at me for several minutes in court but I had no other consequences.

[livednlearned]

and scared that I'll always be... .well, scared, as long as my ex has the kids unsupervised. 

Do you think that your fears would go away if visitation was supervised?

And

What would it be like if you got what you wanted in court. What is that scenario? How would you feel?

[momtara]

Yes, my fears would be assuaged (well, largely) if it was supervised.  I'd feel good if he was supervised until the kids were older.   However, that seems like a lot to go through if I'm just being unfairly anxious because he scares me.  I don't rightly know.  I almost think ex would like to be supervised too, if it was by his parents, who he lives with.  But he sure fought against that this summer when I briefly got supervised.

I have plenty of evidence that he is wacky and sometimes angry, but none that he is putting the kids in any imminent danger.  I am just going to keep monitoring.

If we had 50/50, obviously I would have a set goal.  But he has them rarely now as it is, so the next step really is supervised, not to further cut visitation.

Part of me wants to buy/lease a car for pickups and dropoffs.  I don't worry about them being at the house with him so much - for some reason, the rides scare me more.  I don't know.  

[momtara]

I emailed him to tell him we both have to make appointments now.  He responded with an email saying, "Remind her if there is any discussion of my past or present mental health, she'll be fired."  This isn't true.  I want to write back and tell him that.  It's going to trigger him and we don't have an appointment with her until after the holidays, so that's 2 weeks of him being triggered and taking the kids.  On one hand, I don't want to pussyfoot around and not respond to this email.  On the other hand, if we're not seeing her for a while, I don't want to necessarily set him off, either.  It's maniuplative to always have to bite my tongue.  I've done it too much.  I dunno, should I just not respond to those statements?

I see what's in his mind - he is afraid (he always has this fear) that this is a plot to take the kids away.  That's what was behind his scary behaviors two years ago when he put our infant on the edge of the bed to scare me.  Paradoxically, he thought i was going to leave with the kids, so he did wacky things that made me have to leave.  

It does say she's not allowed to discuss his medication or contact his docs.  It doesn't say she can't discuss his treatment or ask questions.  I think he wanted that in there and expected taht the point of a PC was to help us communicate better, nothing more.  I would have been fine with that, but now I want her to make sure he's getting the right treatment, too.

[livednlearned]

Hi momtara,

You're still really enmeshed with your ex. I think until you work through both your codependence and anxiety issues, you're going to circle this drain for years and years to come. A lot of people here have a learning curve as they go through the custody process. Most seem to detach and when the fog clears they become very clear about their goals. Your learning curve isn't doing that, at least it doesn't seem so from out here. You have the information you need to make good choices and stand by them, but your enmeshment and anxiety sabotages you. Maybe it would help if you spent some time on the Personal Inventory board, learning the lessons people have put together on this site to help people like you and me understand our role in the dynamic.

One thing I gather from following your story is that you mention again and again that your kids are young, and they're more vulnerable. Yes, kids are vulnerable when they're young, but kids who have mentally ill parents are vulnerable, period. No matter what age. Think about the kids whose BPD parents managed to alienate them. Or the ones who have to stay with BPD moms who have felon boyfriends, who have sex with their mom while the kids sleep in the same room. Imagine how vulnerable your kids would be if they lived with your ex in another state most of the year. When my son was 10 and I dropped him off at his dad's, he was just as vulnerable as he was when he was 3 or 4 or 5. He was so scared of his dad that he would do anything to appease him. That's a vulnerable child. I left him with a guy who drank to excess and took any kind of prescription pill he could get access to, who had psychotic episodes and guns in the house. And my story is nowhere near the worst.

Your ex is much better at manipulating you than you are at manipulating him. He is a bully. You can't appease or manipulate a bully. The whole point of them bullying you is to get you to back down and cower and appease and walk on egg shells.

You already know this, but when you email him, your messages need to have some kind of outcome or consequence attached to his non-compliance. "Please make an appointment to see the PC by day/date. If I do not hear back from you, I will assume you consent to this PC."

If he writes back a veiled threat, "Remind the PC that if she talks about my mental illness, she's fired" -- just ignore it. It's a threat, no more no less.

And then put together a plan to get supervised visitation if that's what you think is best for the kids. And don't cave when he starts acting erratically. That's how this works. You set a boundary, he steps it up. If you can't deal with that, then you aren't going to be able to change any of this. You'll go back to court and at the critical moment when you need to assert what you want, you'll back down. That's money and time wasted, and you just end up teaching him how much power he really has over you.

[david]

I agree that you need to ignore the email. It has nothing to do with the kids. I agree with lnl that you have not detached emotionally enough to see that. Don't beat yourself up about that. You need to figure out the reason why. Do you just need more time to process, do you still want to reconcile, is your confidence in raising the kids by yourself an issue, ... .I went to several T's until I found one that clicked for me. It took a few months after that to face the issues I was avoiding. It wasn't comfortable but my thought was if I didn't I would regret not doing my best for our kids. I also came to realize that if my ex ever did get the help she needed she would agree that I was doing what was best for our kids. If she didn't get help than I was still doing the best I could for our kids. Our boys are my bottom line.

If I received an email like that I would give it to the pc. It's in his words and he is showing that  a) he understands he has a problem  b) is using that to threaten you  c) and his threats are working to unnerve you. A solution I see is to get the court order spelled out in detail to leave no wiggle room and then to follow it. His threats are still affecting you and you need to address that yourself. No court order will "fix" that and no court order will "fix" him.

[momtara]

Gosh, you guys are smart.

Just tell him to make the appointment - precisely!  That should have been clear to me, but it wasn't.

And show her the email - that's a good idea too.

David and LnL, I think one of you (or both) have mentioned the enmeshment before, and it's true.  I guess part of me does hope deep down he can get better, and feels bad because I have seen such a good person who doesn't want his family taken away and for his whole life to end.  The other part of him is awful, and the good part of him doesn't understand the awful part.  It is frustrating that this disease robs someone of their ability to have the relationship they should have.  If he was a cheater or... .ok, I'm making excuses again, aren't I?  The whole "he's not so bad" thing.  Obviously he can be bad.  I did get divorced quickly from him and he was asking for one more chance and going to counseling consistently.  Even my therapists said, so what, give him a year and see if he can get better - and I wouldn't do it because I knew that if he tried really hard and was only 90 percent better, not 100 percent, I'd want to leave and wouldn't be able to get away.  He'd say "I tried so hard" and I'd never have the guts to get divorced.  I kind of had a chance to protect us legally and I took it.  But  the kids were so young and it was hard and I missed out on so much, like the kids (at least some of the time) having a dad around like their friends.  It might have ended even worse if I'd waited a year, but I'll never know.

Sorry, that's a waste of breath in a space where I should be worried about the kids, not him.  And he has had a year to do better if he wanted.  It's not like I'm remarried or anything.

It is helpful to know there is a learning curve and you all survived it.  I value your advice so much.

I do get very intimidated by him - but why not?  He has my kids.  It makes sense to avoid triggering him.

So I will respond but just stick to the facts.  Give him the phone number and that's it.  Thanks for being so clear to me when I needed it - the answer was obvious and I didn't even realize it.

As for asking for supervised, I still have to wait for a reason to justify it.  The pattern I have so far may just not be enough.  I guess the PC may help, as long as she understands a role to protect the kids, not just help us 'communicate.'  A PC's job is to keep us *out* of court. 

[momtara]

Here is my new reason for anxiety.  ExH said to me that I should make my appointment first, see if she's willing to comply with our order, and then he'll make his.  I'll tell him just to make one.  But his comment reminds me of a crucial detail:  He thinks I'm still on his side regarding seeing a PC just to work better together, one who will NOT contact his providers.  If I go see this woman and tell her I want her to disregard our mutual consent order (which says we would get a new PC who would not talk to his providers), then I have to go back and tell exH that she was against that part of the order and I agree with her.  He'll see it as a betrayal, because over summer I promised I'd find one who would agree with our order.  Or I can go and we can start working with her maybe she'll be fine not talking to his docs, but then I'm stuck in this situation where I've closed off that avenue.  Or I can just go to court now to ask them to change it, but that's going to also drive him crazy and I need good justification (I have this pattern of nutty behavior, but still).  My choices are:

1.  See PC and accept that she can't talk to his providers, but hope she can convince him to let her.  Then ex and I both have to sign a retainer agreement that will specify what she can and can't do.  May or may not work.

2.  See PC and tell her I want her to be able to talk to his providers and ask her advice.  Then I can go back to exH and tell him something to the effect that all PC's are going to insist on being able to communicate with his providers at certain intervals, and I'm sorry, but our agreement just won't hold up.

3.  Tell him I'm going back to court to revise the order.  Which is a betrayal because we just negotiated it this summer.  In the meantime, he still is taking our kids unsupervised while this is triggering him and leading him to believe he may lose them, which is a persistent irrational fear of his.

As LnL knows, I buckled under.  We had a PC who was communicating with his providers and I dropped her at exH's insistence and figured I'd give him a chance to do better without a PC.  But his behavior makes me nervous.  I can't control him, but I can have someone in place kind of monitoring the situation.

Need thoughts on how to proceed best.  Betrayals last with him and are the worst.  If I'd stuck to my guns in the beginning it would have been ok because we could have negotiated, or if we'd gone before a judge the judge could have decided.  Now we worked out this agreement over the summer to get a new PC but one who could not talk to his providers.  She can request info via exH, I suppose, but who knows if that will be enough.  So to take something we negotiated, and not hold up my end, will just piss him off and make him untrusting of me.

And he needs to trust me.  When I took him to court over the summer, he blamed our old PC for inspiring me to do that, so he's not really angry at me.   I don't want him to be angrier at me than he needs to be, because then it's worse for the kids.  Trust me, I don't want to make his trust issues of me any worse.

I guess maybe the best avenue is to somehow work this so it looks like it's coming from the PC.  Or maybe say no PC will work under these conditions and we should let a judge decide.

Our appointment won't be until December so I have a week or two to figure this out.

[livednlearned]

Do you know what your therapist is treating you for? Often therapists will use "anxiety adjustment disorder" if they think that your anxiety is based on some situation that will likely pass. There's usually a DSM code on your bill that will tell you.

If they use "generalized anxiety disorder," that usually means that they think the anxiety is more pervasive and while it may be worse during a particular circumstances, they have some reason to believe that the anxiety fuels your thinking no matter what the circumstance may be. 

I'm just guessing here, but I know in other posts you've mentioned you suffer from social anxiety (or maybe it was social awkwardness?), feeling very timid and tentative about things. You mentioned having a mentally ill parent, which could easily set you up to have generalized anxiety. I'm not a big fan of taking medication for anxiety because often anxiety is a habit of thought and reactions to uncertainty, and its better to address that stuff than take a pill and deaden your feelings. But I wonder if you would benefit from medication? I've never taken anti-anxiety medication, but I know people who have. One of my friends said it was the first time he realized how constantly panicked he had been. He had never known anything else and didn't even know what kind of state of mind he was going for. Taking a small dose of medication made it easier for him to get what he needed to get out of therapy, and he's not on meds anymore. I think he did CBT (cognitive based therapy).

Anyway, you're bound and determined to manipulate your ex, and to continue to walk on eggshells. You're asking people for advice on how to manipulate him and the PC to get what you want without triggering him. There is no way you can get what you want without triggering him. It's practically a math equation, that's how straightforward the logic is.

The PC is going to take one look at the order, which says he can't ask anything about your ex's mental illness, and come to what conclusion? That your ex is a healthy guy with no issues? You don't need to meddle. Your ex is going to deliver his behaviors on a silver platter.

Let it play out. See what happens if you just let things be uncertain. When you get that sensation that the sky is going to fall, sneak in a healthy habit like exercise or mindfulness. Something that will give you a feeling of calm. Pick up the phone and call a good friend or focus on being present with your kids.

[momtara]

Not sure what I'm treated for - I can ask him.  I've been seeing him since before the divorce, so I think it may have been general malaise. 

As for letting it play out - not a bad idea, but I think it's valid to worry that if we sign with this PC, she is locked into not talking to his professionals.  Then we're stuck like that for a year.   Do you think it's ok to go in there and tell her I really want her to be able to talk to his professionals, despite what the order says? 

Another question, he wants me to just make my appointment, and he'll make his after I report that I'm ok with her - which I thought at first is a bad idea, but maybe that's a way for me to see if things are really going to work with her.  If I go to the appt and she isn't working out, and exH still has an appointment, I may look like the one rejecting her.

I picked this one because way back when, she said she had worked with BPD people before, and understands that they're manipulative.  So she sort of understands.  She is foreign, which makes me nervous because sometimes she may be slow on the take, but I do want her to care about my children and my exH's issues.

[momtara]

I've been thinking about this a lot.  Here is what I want.  I want our PC to be able to talk to his doctors, so we know that he's seeing them regularly.

Here's the thing.  Our agreement says our new PC, whoever we pick, can't talk to his counselors.  I don't want to sign on for that for a year.  If I go see this one, I think she probably will say no to that.  I could use that to go back to ex and tell him.  He'll ask me to ask others.  I'll tell him they all want to talk to counselors.  It shifts the blame to them.  However, what if I go to this one says she says, "ok, we'll just stick to helping you coparent together?"  Then I'm the one lying.

I wonder if it makes more sense to have my lawyer just write to his lawyer with the things that have happened over two months, say we're concerned, and need to remove that part of the agreement or have a judge appoint us someone.  I don't think they want to deal with a judge.  This still will trigger him.

The thing is, I can't really get him on supervised visitation right now, and that seems extreme right now - but I don't like the idea of him taking the kids while we're having a legal battle.  (Although I guess he did while we were divorcing... .)

Maybe I go see this counselor, see if she has ideas, and then go back to him and also tell my lawyer.

[livednlearned]

An ethical PC will not disregard the order. It's a legal document. If you and your ex signed it, and it says she cannot contact his counselors, then she cannot contact his counselors. She could lose her license.

You have to see what this looks like from out here, momtara. You are trying to manipulate the PC and the legal system and your ex.

Why not go to the PC and say that you have a really hard time standing up to your ex because he is mentally ill and you fear triggering him, and how that could impact your young children. You were so afraid to trigger him that you agreed to the terms of the order. You think there should be supervised visitation, but because the way the legal system works, you don't think you can get that, not without something really bad happening.

Just tell the truth. 

[momtara]

OK.  We haven't technically picked her yet - I mean, we've picked her to try out, but haven't agreed on her via court order.  She won't disregard the existing order, but she may not want to work with us unless it gets changed, if I talk to her.  But if I go to her and she says she CAN work with us without it being changed, then maybe I'm locked into it and I have no excuse.

That's why I'm wondering if I should go to court before I even see the PC.  Or see her and pick her brain about the whole situation.

[livednlearned]

Why not just go and tell her what your situation is?

Often when we're anxious, we worry over this and that, and have a lot of hypotheses, but never test those hypotheses. My therapist calls it spinning. If you were trying to making a business deal, it would be called negotiating with yourself.

Go meet the PC and stick to the facts as much as possible. Let her ask questions, don't try and manipulate the situation. Your last PC saw that there was something wrong with your ex. Chances are this one will too.

You are convinced that in order for the PC to work, he or she must have access to your ex's mental health records. Maybe that hypothesis is wrong. Maybe the PC has enough experience to see that there is something seriously wrong with your ex, and becomes concerned based on her own professional assessment.

People don't like to be manipulated, momtara. And you are kidding yourself if you think people can't see it coming a mile away, especially a PC whose sole purpose is to work with two people who can't work things out in healthy ways. 

A lot of people can see mental illness and PDs very quickly. We're the ones who became enmeshed and make excuses for pwBPD, and are convinced that someone only has to be great 50% of the time for us to think that's perfectly fine. Not everyone thinks that way.

[momtara]

I'm sure she'll see it.  I will give her the documents from the last PC.  The last PC wrote a whole bunch of emails about his behavior. 

Thing is, if we go into this thing with her agreeing never to contact his professionals, what are her other recourses if she simply sees he's mentally ill?  Same as mine - just wait until he does anything REALLY bad.  Sure, maybe she'll ask him to give her documentation he's seeing his docs.  That's what I'd really want.  I want to make sure he is seeing his docs regularly so that he at least is getting talk therapy.

With the last PC, I saw his behavior changing.  I told the PC.  She called his docs and they talked to her and told her he had gone off his medicine. 

It's possible this new one will not be as aggressive and will just keep monitoring the situation but nothing much will change.  I really want to make sure he is seeing his docs as he said.  I can ask her to ask him to do so, but she may not see the need.

[momtara]

"and are convinced that someone only has to be great 50% of the time for us to think that's perfectly fine."

Funny but so true.

[livednlearned]

With the last PC, I saw his behavior changing.  I told the PC.  She called his docs and they talked to her and told her he had gone off his medicine. 

Did that make your situation any better?

Did your ex change his behavior?

I might not be remembering things correctly, but didn't the docs/med stuff lead to you going to your lawyer and then drafting up another PC order that became the current one you don't like?

It seems like your goal is to get your husband to take his medication, and try to get the PC and his doctors and maybe the lawyers to help you reach that goal.

[momtara]

Well, what happened is that we got an order getting him on supervised visitation and said he could come off once he was doing what his docs told him.  Then his docs wrote letters saying he was in compliance.  The letters weren't specific and didn't say he was taking his meds, so I was confused, because the PC had told me that his docs had told her otherwise.  Our PC's term had ended and she didn't say anything else to me when I asked about the contradiction.  I thought I'd have to drop the whole thing, but I wanted to get something out of it.  I got him to agree to a PC, but with the stipulation that she not contact his doctors.  He claimed his docs had said the PC was interfering with their work with him.  Now I am starting to doubt this.  I also got an agreement that he'd submit a letter once a year from his docs saying they are still working with him and he is following their recommendations.  It's pretty nonspecific but at least once a year they may have to give assurance.  That's a long time to wait, though.  I got intimidated and backed down.  I thought I was in a bad position because technically he hadn't done anyting dangerous and I thought a judge wouldn't drop the whole thing.  Looking back, I was in a better position (at least to ask for a PC and psych eval) than I thought.  Now he's unsupervised and I don't want to trigger him, but I do want to make sure he goes to both of his doctors 2x/month like he's supposed to.  I have no way of making sure he is.  I know that the talk therapy helps him - and that helps the kids.  I can't really force him to take his medication, but I can make sure he goes to his docs, and I think it's imperative that he does, especially as our kids get older and start talking back and such.

[Swiggle]

Even if you get notification via the PC that he is seeing his T and that doesn't mean he is making progress. Maybe you're focused on the wrong thing... .him getting the help he needs and taking his meds. If that is part of your CO and he is in violation if he doesn't (sorry I don't recall). I agree that the new PC may see him for who he really is, does it matter if she has access to his docs. I mean if she sees he is disordered she won't need a doc to tell her that, if she doesn't see it or doesn't see it in the manner you do, even the doc may not make her believe otherwise. My T calls this What if'ing everything, it took me a long time to see this as an issue that would trip me up. I would get caught and anxious over the things that may not have even mattered.

[momtara]

If his docs have a concern, it'd be good for her to know it, I think.  Under current laws, they obviously can't tell us anything unless it's life or death.  But if they were worried because he stopped seeing them, they'd have no way to let me or our pc know, esp if she can't check in with them.

I am SURE she'll see that he's mentally ill.  I have plenty of documentation to give her.  But what good would it be for her to simply see it?  I'd like to know if he stops seeing his docs.  Progress or not, it would be much worse if he stops seeing them and I don't find out until next summer.

I wonder if she could issue a recommendation that we get more frequent notifications from his providers? 

[david]

 

My ex had a family friend that was her doc right before she left. A few weeks after ex left the friend came over to get something she left at our house. She really came to talk to me about ex. The doc indicated that people that behave the way my ex was behaving are usually diagnosed with bi polar. This was before I knew anything about mental health issues.

We were in court a few months later and the doc testified in ex's bahalf. She denied ever saying anything to me at all as if I fabricated the entire thing. Once ex got what she wanted from her she cut her off and they are no longer friends.

My ex will start to get better when she decides she needs to get better and seeks proper help. The docs will not help until then. She can go to as many docs as she wants but no one is going to tell her she has a mental health issue and needs help. If they did ex would find someone else. The docs have a balancing act to perform with patients. They need to get the patients trust and can't do much more until that happens.

Trying to fix or manage ex will not work. When I stopped doing that things got a little crazy (extinction burst) but eventually things started getting better for the boys and I. I still get crazy threats and allegations. We just went to a co parent counseling meeting yesterday (our second). I found out that I am the problem, her first ex and her amicably divorced (that isn't even close to the truth), that I refuse to compromise with anything,   etc .

I changed and she did not.

If you meet the pc and can't do that with ex there too than say that. I had a pc and refused to meet with ex. I stood firm and I didn't suffer any consequences. I am allowed to feel safe.

[livednlearned]

But what good would it be for her to simply see it? 

Do you know what your PCs can and can't do in your state? There is probably a professional association that issued her a license, and you can find out what kind of testimony she can give, how much weight it carries (ie can she recommend changes in custody), whether she can order a psych eval, etc.

PCs have different levels of authority depending on what state you're in. In my state, they have an extension of judicial duties.

You could also just ask her. Tell her what your concerns are, how you got to this point, what she would recommend.

My PC had the authority to order a psych eval, was sworn in by a judge, and actually called for a special hearing because she was concerned about her safety, mine, and S13's safety. Maybe yours has the ability to do that too.

[momtara]

Mine can make the recommendation for a psych eval and such.  They can basically make recommendations.  If the parties disagree, parties can use those in court.

You are all being very helpful.  Thank you.  Any thought you give me is helpful.

My ex is actually seeing a psychologist every 2 weeks and a psychiatrist every 4 - or SUPPOSED to be.  He's being treated for bipolar and anxiety, I believe.  I can't control what he does, ultimately, but I would certainly not want him to get any less treatment than he is now.  That would constitute a change in circumstance from when custody was decided, for one.