Projection: What did I project on him?

[Pingo]

Hi all, I have recently read through the workshop on projection and I'm still trying to understand it. You can read through it here if you're interested:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70931.0

I understand how he projected on me.  He accused me of lying, listening in on his conversations, keeping secrets, amoral behaviour, not caring about his feelings, being a bad parent, etc.  I didn't understand it in the beginning but as our r/s evolved I could really see how the things he was accusing me of doing/being were all him.  And especially since we split and I found out he was keeping some pretty big lies.  It made me so angry after all the accusations he laid on me.

What I am now trying to understand is what I projected on him.  Because everyone projects to a point.  After reading this board for months, I see how tormented r/ss were for so many people.  Most talk about red flags and crazy behaviour right from the start.  Mine was no different.  So how did we convince ourselves that these people were the ones we should be in a r/s with after all this crazy stuff? 

Did we project our own fantasy on them?  Project our best qualities?  This is what I'm trying to figure out.  These are the things I think I projected on him (in the first year anyways):

He had empathy (which he clearly did not)

He was kind (nope, not really, very selfish)

He had a good work ethic (was out of work for 3 yrs while I paid for everything)

He had good morals and values (I was completely delusional)

He wanted to share intimacy with me (he wanted to hook me and I mistook intensity for intimacy)

He believed in something greater spiritually (he believed he was that something greater I think)

He was open minded (he was black and white)

He would take care of me if our roles were reversed and I got injured/couldn't work (no evidence, more fantasy)

He loved his family/kids (he loved them if they allowed him to do what he wanted to do without any consideration of their feelings)

Some of this stuff he actually said early on and I wanted to believe it but as time went on his actions proved otherwise.  Some of it was hopeful thinking/fantasy on my part.  On our first yr anniversary I wrote him a "100 things I love about you" list.  Now when I look back at it it's laughable.  I was in la-la land.  When their actions clearly tell us how unstable they are, that we are not a priority, that they are self-centered and unkind, why do we stay?

Does anyone else have any insights on this whole projection thing?

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks for this Pingo! I have been thinking about some of these same things.

I feel like it was pretty easy for me to project my fantasies onto him. My fantasies were things like being in a relationship where both parties nurture the relationship. I always expected to have to work at a relationship and make sacrifices and not be selfish. I thought he felt the same way. Heck, he claimed to believe those things. We got married in his church and went through premarital counseling.

I don't consider myself an extrovert but I do like being with family and loved ones. I crave connection. I think I projected that craving onto him. He doesn't crave connection. He craves being left alone to do whatever he wants and that is why there are times when I am wanting to connect and he seems agitated. Connecting with me is too much work. I feel like I have been willing to do the work. Heck, we have been married for 16.5 years. I should have left a whole lot of different times over the years but I projected my own desires for forgiveness and second chances on him. I acknowledge that I make mistakes and the last thing that I want is for people to hold those mistakes against me because I feel like I am a truly caring person. I used to see him as a truly caring person too. The truth is that he isn't a caring person. He is very selfish and self centered. Yes, he may care on some level but not the level that I projected onto him.

I think the thing that I projected most onto him was ambition. I used to think of him as somebody that wanted to do better and get ahead. Nope, he has no ambition. He wants just enough to scrape by and that it is it. I used to "help" with his ambitions by helping him look for job postings because I knew he didn't have time to do it at work. I used to "help" him so much with so many things because I thought he wanted those things. He doesn't want those things. He just wants to be left alone to do his things. That reminds me of one other thing. I used to think he was open and honest because I am open and honest. That is what I wanted to see. I did not want to see that he would tell me whatever he thought I wanted to hear. I couldn't fathom a husband actively choosing porn and himself over his new bride. So, when he told me that he was doing it out of consideration for me, I bought it hook, line, and sinker because I couldn't fathom a person being like that. 

[Fluff]

As I see it, our projections on them are the assumptions we make based on previous interactions with people, how we ourselves are and the fantasy of how we hope them to be, because they're our soul mates right? In our idea of the world people don't cheat and crazy love you at the same time, so we assume this goes for them as well. We wouldn't cheat and crazy love at the same time, so we assume this. A soul mate wouldn't cheat and crazy love us at the same time, so we assume this. We paint these attributes upon them. Projection (kind of).

And then the evidence of the contrary start stacking up...

[Fluff]

Another type of projection, that I've become aware of through therapy, ties in with the Anima/Animus Blimblam has been talking about.

Hm, how to explain this... bare with me...

When I was 8 years old I read a comic book about a wolf-boy who was an outsider and a thief. No one loved him. He then met a cute purple wolf-girl who was the first to be kind to him and taught him how to read. He fell in love, but the wolf-girl was of a rich family and her parents wouldn't let him see her. He stood outside their house, longing for her and then ventured deep into the forest and became a villain. She would forever be his only love.

2 years later my parents divorce and I get separated from my mother. Images of this comic strip starts coming up. I'm starting to connect to it emotionally. I know this longing.

9 years later a woman in a fantasy novel I've read becomes like this ideal women that I'm longing for. I fall in love with a HPD-kinda girl and project/mix-up this fantasy woman on her. We become a couple and after a couple of months I breakup because she turned out to not be this magical fantasy woman. Just a regular girl... ^^

12 years later, after the breakup with my BPDex, these images of the purple wolf-girl pops up and I Google it to see where these images come from, and I find pictures from the comic book. When I later brought it up in therapy I realized it wasn't a coincidence that these images popped up again.

[Pingo]

That brings up another thought Fluff, we see movies or read (romance) stories about unlikely characters suddenly changing and falling in love with the other and living happily ever after, forever changed.  I think this feeds into the fantasy that this is possible, that people can become who we need them to be.  Maybe not consciously at first.

And Vortex, I also projected ambition on my ex, I forgot about that one.  What he told me in the beginning and who he ended up being are two very different people.  This helps me sort out how I was in love with the 'fantasy'.

[Fluff]

That brings up another thought Fluff, we see movies or read (romance) stories about unlikely characters suddenly changing and falling in love with the other and living happily ever after, forever changed.  I think this feeds into the fantasy that this is possible, that people can become who we need them to be.  Maybe not consciously at first.

For sure, all these things becomes part of our idea of the world and how people are. What's possible, what's not, what's valuable, what's not and so on. That sucks, but it gets worse. I think you could romanticize a person in a movie and then paint this dream character upon another person. Like i did with the woman above. And I even think some people will re-enact drama from say TV-shows they are watching. My ex was watching "Girls", I don't know why but I got the gut feeling that she was very influenced by what had happened in that weeks episode.

[vortex of confusion]

That brings up another thought Fluff, we see movies or read (romance) stories about unlikely characters suddenly changing and falling in love with the other and living happily ever after, forever changed.  I think this feeds into the fantasy that this is possible, that people can become who we need them to be.  Maybe not consciously at first.

Oh my goodness, the fairy tails where the woman falls in love with a nasty man and he becomes her savior are endless. Beauty and the Beast is the first one that comes to mind. Society tells us that you just have to love the badness out of them. If they aren't right, then you just haven't loved them enough or sacrificed enough. Love conquers all, blah, blah, blah!

And Vortex, I also projected ambition on my ex, I forgot about that one.  What he told me in the beginning and who he ended up being are two very different people.  This helps me sort out how I was in love with the 'fantasy'.

In my case, I had no reason to believe that he didn't have any ambition. When we met, he was working on a master's degree in Philosophy and then he went on to get a second master's degree. He was the typical all American boy that was an Eagle Scout, played high school football, was in the men's organization affiliated with his church, had been a monk for a couple of years, came from a "good" family, and so on. His credentials were so very different than the guy that I was with before him. I really thought I was "safe" because he seemed to have everything going for him. He made it so easy to project my own fantasy on him.

My first super serious relationship was with a guy that served 3 years in a military prison for drug charges. He had only been out of prison for a short time when we started dating (I was a high school senior). He was working for his parents' business and his credentials sucked.

[vortex of confusion]

For sure, all these things becomes part of our idea of the world and how people are. What's possible, what's not, what's valuable, what's not and so on. That sucks, but it gets worse. I think you could romanticize a person in a movie and then paint this dream character upon another person. Like i did with the woman above. And I even think some people will re-enact drama from say TV-shows they are watching. My ex was watching "Girls", I don't know why but I got the gut feeling that she was very influenced by what had happened in that weeks episode.

Very embarrassing light bulb moment. . .One of the first movies that my husband and I went to see in the theater together was Jerry Maguire. The character Jerry is the perfect example of somebody with BPD. At the beginning of the movie, he is at that bachelor party and all of those women are talking about how he is afraid of commitment and likes to play the field. Then along comes this nice and safe girl with a kid. They get married but he is checked out the whole time. She sends him off on some trip after giving him a big speech.

I had to go look up some of the quotes:

Dorothy: I love him! I love him for the man he wants to be. And I love him for the man he almost is.

Dorothy: On the surface, everything seems fine. I've got this great guy. And he loves my kid. And he sure does like me a lot. And I can't live like that. It's not the way I'm built.

Laurel: Dorothy, this is not a guy. It's a syndrome. Early mid-life. Hanging on to the bottom rung. ":)ear God, don't let me be alone or I call my newly-long-suffering-assistant-without-medical for company settlement." If now all you still want is him to come over, I'm not saying anything.

I found the dialogue that I was looking for. I think it is a perfect example:

Dorothy: I took advantage of you and worst of all, I'm not alone. I did this with a kid. I was just on some ride where I thought I was in 1ove enough for both of us. I did this. And at least I can do something about it now.

Jerry: Well -- I'm not the guy who's going to run. I stick.

Dorothy: I don't need you to "stick."

Jerry: What do you want from me? My soul?

Dorothy: Why not? I deserve that much.

Jerry: What if I'm just not built that way?

Dorothy: I think we made a mistake here.

Jerry: What if it's true? "Great at friendship bad at intimacy." I mean, come on. It's the theme of my bachelor party film --

Dorothy: I know. I watched it. I sort of know it by heart.

Jerry: I don't like to give up.

Dorothy: Oh please. My need to make the best of things, and your need to be what, "responsible"... .if one of us doesn't say something now we might lose ten years being polite about it. Why don't we call this next road trip what it is. A nice long break.

Jerry: What about Ray?

Dorothy: There's no question you'll be friends. Of course you'll be friends.

Jerry: So this break... .is a break-up.

Dorothy: Come on, Jerry. You know this isn't easy for me. I mean, on the surface, you'd almost think everything was fine. See, I've got this great guy who loves my kid -- and he sure does like me a lot. I can't live that way. It's not the way I'm built.

Later in the movie, he has that big thing where he comes home and is looking for his wife and says a bunch of cheesy crap about how she completes him and how he had this big happy moment and all he wanted to do was share it with his wife. Blech!    I think part of me has been hoping that my husband would make some kind of big gesture to show that he is interested, that he cares, that I am important. I think I got that idea planted in the back of my head from this movie. It is me projecting what I want to happen and what I want to see rather than what is real.

[Pingo]

So lots of movies depicting women saving ___ed up men, I'm interested in hearing from the men about movies with ___ed up women and the men who save them... .

I never liked that movie Jerry Maguire and now I know why!  I watched a movie not too long ago called "Hope Springs" where Tommy Lee Jones plays a complete jerk husband and magically transforms at the end after years of tormenting his wife he sees the light and they fall in love again... .It really triggered me! I got enraged watching it.  I don't think I'll be able to project that fantasy on another man again.  When I met my uBPDexh he was so much opposite to my first husband, I think that's why I fell so fast and hard.  I had the fantasy and he played right into it.  Turns out they are both giant children.

[Fluff]

I think this is the core issue with these relationships and the biggest thing we actually had in common with our exes. We all mixed up fantasies with reality. We tried to write romantic stories that then crashed against reality. And my guess is the harder it is for us to let go the earlier in our development the fantasies we're trying to realize were created. I think that's also why it's so easy for them to dump us, you were a cinema screen for their fantasy projection. Maybe you weren't a very good screen, maybe you had some bumps and scratches so the projection didn't look as intended. Ha! I think I thought highly of myself for continuing to project on to her even though she was a bumpy screen herself. I "accepted" her, for good and for worse... .yeaaahhh... .

So, if you're really really struggling to let go: Therapy, therapy, therapy. Get those fantasies to the surface so you can stop projecting them.

[myself]

We projected that they're more normal than disordered.

We made excuses for their behavior so we wouldn't really face it.

Also that they saw us for who we are, not as their projections.

[Pingo]

We projected that they're more normal than disordered.

We made excuses for their behavior so we wouldn't really face it.

Also that they saw us for who we are, not as their projections.

Absolutely!  I made up so many excuses, rationalised, denied... .Until I couldn't anymore and had to face the truth.  He was not who I thought/wished/wanted him to be.

If I look at my original list at the beginning of this thread and look at the facts (not the fantasy of my projections), he is NOT a man I would want to be with.

[vortex of confusion]

Absolutely!  I made up so many excuses, rationalised, denied... .Until I couldn't anymore and had to face the truth.  He was not who I thought/wished/wanted him to be.

If I look at my original list at the beginning of this thread and look at the facts (not the fantasy of my projections), he is NOT a man I would want to be with.

<sigh> Yep, and I feel like a complete idiot because it has taken me 18 years to see the truth. When I strip away all of the rationalization, excuses, denial, and pull my head out of my butt, my husband is not somebody that I can spend the rest of my life with. I think I have made it this long by living one day at a time. He is doing a 12 step program and that is what he always tells me when I try to talk about the future or dreams or goals. He says that he can't plan a future with me. He has to take things one day at a time.

[Blimblam]

A few movies from my childhood that had a huge impact on my projections are all dogs go to heaven, the rats of nym, and Snow White.  As a child of about 3 or 4 I can remember watching Snow White in the theatre and it triggered something really really deep in me. I can remember running up and down the isle in the theatre yelling yes yes yes the running the other way no no no.  I was somehow terrified and ecstatic going back and forth and the boundaries between the film and reality somehow intertwined on a deep profound level like there was a huge overlap and it's hard to explain. 

I now after a bit of research realize that Snow White combines elements from multiple fairy tales and ancient myths into one storyline.  These archetypes are sort of hard wired into our collective conciousness and our family becomes the basic model through which we relate to these archetypes. 

Looking into the creation myths you were raised with ties in deeply to the anima and animus archetypes we hold within us. Also what ever your first language is or the language you filter reality through has encoded within it A ton of associations that sort of make up the framework of our unconcious mind whether we are aware of it or not.  The words tie into symbols that tie into emotions and archetypes that tie into our experiences in life.  These are all filters through which we project.

Here's a brief example of these associations. Let's start with oven and ovum. We put dead life forms in the oven and we transform it into life giving sustainance.  The ovum is where mans seed enters the woman's incubator and the two become 1 and form a child in the woman's womb.  The symbol for the ovum is an oval. Now IN the oval represents this union of the two becoming one and creating life.  Now think of all the advertisements and symbols you have encountered of a word or symbol IN an oval.  The ancient godess of Sumeria was named inanna or IN-Ahnna. The sound frequency for "ah" is the same one they have machines use in the medical field for DNA and cellular repair. It is supposedly a "sacred sound frequency". So inanna is enter sacred sound frequency within sacred frequency, which I personally extrapolate as inside a dream within a dream.  Inanna is the protype for the goddes Ishtar who became Aphrodite who became Venus. On the holiday of Easter was the same date as the ancient celebration of the godess Ishtar. the tradition of the Easter bunny and Easter eggs. The eggs are ovals and their are prizes within the oval.

I will stop there but this is an example of how intertwined sound symbols words and archtypes are intertwined with physical reality our concious landscape of sound and symbols of and our unconcious mind of triggers for archtypes to be projected.

[Pingo]

It's interesting how you see everything so intertwined Blimblam, I don't remember any movies like that standing out for me as a child.  I'll have to think about that.  I do enjoy movies where love prevails, especially unlikely love. I don't mean where a jerk is transformed into a gem.  I mean love that is deep and pushes the envelope, breaks stereotypes, makes us see past our black and white thinking.  Ever see the crying game?  I loved that movie.  I guess I still want to believe that everyone deserves love, even the underdog.

[Blimblam]

I wanted to to add to my last statement to make it practical.  So basically anytime you see a word in an oval it is presenting itself as the animus the masculine within the feminine and one a more base level a phallis inside the feminine.  What immediately comes to mind is the ford symbol.  The ford slogan I always hear is ford tough. 

I believe how we relate to others is how we relate to ourselves which is largely related to our family of origin. 

In a relationship with a BPD we seem to enter a parent child dynamic of relations.  I think this relates to our need to reconcile our parent child relationship within ourselves. So when you met a pwBPD it triggered you to rescue you yourself through him.  To project on him your wounded child to transform into the ford tough man or suave or all that crap we have come to associate with the animus archetype. So you projected your belief in yourself onto him and made the association that if he can be fixed you can be fixed. That's a lot of pressure on the relationship the other person and ourselves. And the false association that you need him to fix yourself.  The feeling of wholeness was a projection of the alchemical marriage of your feminine aspects of yourself with you masculine (animus) aspects of yourself within your unconcious part if your psyche. The reconciliation between the concious aspects of your psyche with the unconcious repressed shadow side of your psyche. The child and parent opposed to each other reconciling. The reconciliation between how society tells you how you should be and how you percieve yourself in comparison.

I think the important thing to do is identify the triggers. What you felt when you were triggered and the senses associated with the memories such as smell sight sound and touch. Also the emotions. Since we projected all this as our exs I find through remembering and linking my emotions to expression on my exs face namely the look in her eyes to trigger memories that sort of reveal what is was I was projecting and what I was trying to achieve to deep profound traumatic memories that I have repressed.


Thanks for reading and for finding it interesting .

I'll have to check out the crying game. And everyone does deserve love! Even the underdog.

[Pingo]

In a relationship with a BPD we seem to enter a parent child dynamic of relations.  I think this relates to our need to reconcile our parent child relationship within ourselves. So when you met a pwBPD it triggered you to rescue you yourself through him.  To project on him your wounded child to transform into the ford tough man or suave or all that crap we have come to associate with the animus archetype. So you projected your belief in yourself onto him and made the association that if he can be fixed you can be fixed. That's a lot of pressure on the relationship the other person and ourselves. And the false association that you need him to fix yourself.  The feeling of wholeness was a projection of the alchemical marriage of your feminine aspects of yourself with you masculine (animus) aspects of yourself within your unconcious part if your psyche. The reconciliation between the concious aspects of your psyche with the unconcious repressed shadow side of your psyche. The child and parent opposed to each other reconciling. The reconciliation between how society tells you how you should be and how you percieve yourself in comparison.

I think the important thing to do is identify the triggers. What you felt when you were triggered and the senses associated with the memories such as smell sight sound and touch. Also the emotions. Since we projected all this as our exs I find through remembering and linking my emotions to expression on my exs face namely the look in her eyes to trigger memories that sort of reveal what is was I was projecting and what I was trying to achieve to deep profound traumatic memories that I have repressed.

So I was thinking last night, after I read your post, and journalled.  Yes, he was attractive, rugged.  We had chemistry and similar interests and ideals (I thought).  But looking back, what I was drawn to was that he was tender, vulnerable, wounded, child-like, innocent, sad, tragic, special, in need... .I never thought in a pathetic way.  I never saw this as a red flag.  I guess maybe I saw it the way I would see it in my own child, with empathy and compassion... .and of course wanted to soothe him.  I'm now reflecting and see that I was attracted to this bc those were parts of myself I had denied (and was denied as a child).  I wouldn't allow myself to be weak, show vulnerability.  I had lost my inner-child, spent a life time shutting her down.  I wouldn't allow myself to feel the pain and sadness of my life.  I numbed it any way possible.  So I can see how in saving him I was trying to save myself.  It isn't coincidence how much he's like my very unstable mother.

I often felt like I was parenting him in a way.  And as time went on I started to resent this role.  In the last 6 mths of our r/s I started to despise his neediness, sadness, helplessness.  Actually longer than the last 6 mths but that is when I really started to question my own role.  And then I had a desire to change my role.  Which was met with a LOT of resistance and which led to our r/s ending.  So what I was drawn to in the beginning was what I hated in him in the end.  He didn't want to grow up.  And I didn't want to parent him any longer. 

Still not sure what parts are projection, I'm still trying to figure that out

[Blimblam]

My ex reminded me if my mom too. I logically made the connection but it wasn't untill a week or two latter after a lot of meditation and I think I was singing along to an intensely emotional song I was crying to that it triggered the memory.  It literally felt like time travel and it was quite visual mainly the images of eyes.  Memories of that look of vulnerability and fear in my moms eyes.