Extinction burst with the break-up?

[shatra]

Hi---

I wonder if anyone has heard of them doing "extinction burst" with breaking up? Meaning in the past, we took a break and I contacted him after 3 months-----and we recycled. Now, we are on a "break" of sorts, if I don't contact him in 3 months, he'll do the avoidance thing for more than 3 months, he'll hold out for longer,  thinking the reinforcer of me contacting him must be coming soon, so he "overdoes" and keeps dong the behavior of withdrawal...

   In other words, I believe extinction burst can apply to them NOT doing a behavior (not contacting) for longer and longer, even without the former reinforcers, cause they assume if they hold out eventually the reinforcer will come... .

Or maybe it's just his usual push part of the push-pull phase.

Shatra

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[Mutt]

In other words, I believe extinction burst can apply to them NOT doing a behavior (not contacting) for longer and longer, even without the former reinforcers,

Shatra,

Sure a loved can have an EB. When a pwBPD is silent for 3 months that telegraphs  something else. An EB is us not re-enforcing a behavior not a loved one with BPD and it leads to an extinction burst.

What's the back story on the EB's and 3 month break? Describe the EB.

[Grey Kitty]

This sounds a little like the other side of an EB:

Intermittent reinforcement. Like a slot machine. You keep pulling the handle. Usually nothing comes out, but eventually you get something, maybe a jackpot. Our brains are wired to be hooked and conditioned most strongly by this sort of reinforcement schedule.

So if he breaks up... .and you prove that you will eventually chase after him... .you are reinforcing it for him.

[shatra]

Grey Kitty wrote====

  Usually nothing comes out, but eventually you get something, maybe a jackpot.

So if he breaks up... .and you prove that you will eventually chase after him... .you are reinforcing it for him.

-----Exactly-----so now that I am not planning to contact him, I would not be reinforcing him, and he might stay out of contact longer and longer (the behavior),  thinking that if he does that longer this time, eventually I will contact him and he'll get his reinforcer... .

  So in other words, a "lack of" behavior (his avoiding me) can increase (he stays away longer) to try to elicit the reinforcer... .they may "up the ante" and say "You're not reinforcing me, I'll show you! I 'll do this (avoidance) even more, to provoke you to notice and then reinforce me"  . Like a BPD and non dance.

Shatra

[shatra]

Mutt wrote----

"When a pwBPD is silent for 3 months that telegraphs  something else. An EB is us not re-enforcing a behavior not a loved one with BPD and it leads to an extinction burst. What's the back story on the EB's and 3 month break?"

-----My point is that the "behavior" we are not reinforcing can be a "lack of behavior" (avoidance and silence)... .so in the past we had a break and I contacted him after 3 months (he had been unavailable due to a work project and family duties---I got angry and he initiated a break.  I contacted him after 3 months and we reunited... .

    Now we have another break, and I am not planning to contact him (3 mos. or anytime)-----so i am wondering if this may  also lead to an extinction burst---this time I don't contact him, and he will stay silent even longer, doing the "behavior" of avoidance longer and longer, to provoke the reinforcer (me contacting him) he thinks is coming. I'm curious whether the lack of a behavior extended longer and longer can be extinction burst, just as a behavior done more and more is an extinct. burst.

   Both times he initiated the break because I got angry and criticized him... .he said "It's not working out, I am making you upset, so let's not date anymore" and then hours later he changed it to "let's not break up, let's just take a break".

SHatra

[Mutt]

If your partner is trying to call sometimes it could be object constancy or perhaps they need soothing. If you're not re-enforcing yes it can lead to an EB. Some are less severe, some are severe. Your partner isn't aware of this behavior.

Think of it this way. I have a young child let's say 12 or 18 month ( whatever age ) and I take away their pacifier. The baby cries for their pacifier. The cries worsen and the baby gets frantic and it makes the parent nervous and wanting to soothe the child. I recall my kids and I think it was for a few days at bedtime ( sorry can't remember how many days ) every night worse than the last until it peaks ( Extinction Burst ) Until one night the crying for the pacifier stops. The behavior ( crying ) goes away. That's an example of an EB.

[shatra]

Good example Mutt. Re: object constancy, it sounds like you are saying that when they want to confirm that we are still on the radar,, they reach out and feel the object constancy (we are still there for them---llike when a baby sees mother leave, they think she's gone forever---when they learn object constancy they realize she is still there, just out of sight for the time being).

   Yes, you are rightthe baby crying for the pacifier,, or the BPD trying to call when we broke up, can be extinction burst... .my question is, what about when the BPD does not call during a break up or break (since in the past we tookk a break and I called him)----could this LACK of a behavior also be himm overdoing something more and more, longer and longer (no contact from him longer and longer) because he is expecting that I will reinforce him by calling him first?

  I know I may be making it too complex, it's just that I feel that non-actions can be interpreted as actions. So that :

---A BPD not calling during a break can be his way of continuing to avoid (which is a behavior) because he's holding out for that reinforcer of me calling him

---A kid who is upset with Mom can hide out in his room and avoid her  (which is a behavior) longer and longer,, hoping for that knock on the door for Mom to "contact" him, since that is what she has done in the past

---I feel both of the above can be "extending the break and the absence" due to extinction burst... .the mindset of the kid or the BPD above can be "I'll hold out longer-I won't contact her or come out of my hiding place, I'll hold out until she rewards me by coming to me".

Shatra

[Mutt]

Shatra,

Yes. Lack of object constancy. Like when you play peek-a-boo with a baby. They think the parent disappeared. Your loved one may be contacting to subconsciously make the connection that you're still there. I don't think the motivation is a game with a person that suffers from BPD. Could it be feeling engulfed perhaps because their fear of intimacy is triggered?

[Grey Kitty]

... .and then hours later he changed it to "let's not break up, let's just take a break".

Here's the tough question: What do you want?

Do you want to take a break?

Do you want to break up?

[shatra]

Thanks for the replies. I wonder if the lack of object constancy might keep him away from me (out of sight equals out of mind), but again I am afraid that his staying away might be extinction burst:

----I removed the reinforcer of my calling him to end the break, so now he is going to increase the behavior of avoiding me, longer and longer, thinking I will reinforce him by contacting him.

   

  Re: do I want a break or a break up, I feel anxious and undecided... .I really feel angry at being told sometimes when I get angry that he wants a break... .and I fear that if we reunite, he will one day take a permanent break from me.

Shatra

[Grey Kitty]

Re: do I want a break or a break up, I feel anxious and undecided... .I really feel angry at being told sometimes when I get angry that he wants a break... .and I fear that if we reunite, he will one day take a permanent break from me.

Well... .if you tell him about your uncomfortable feelings, like anger, and his response is "I need a break... ." You have every right to be pissed about that. He's dissing your feelings, and making a big enough mess that he maintains his status as the emotional center of the universe. Sigh.

You fear him taking a permanent break... .how much worse than what you are living through now be? How does the possibility feel?

[shatra]

Hi---

  A permanent break would feel more painful---I would resent having devoted all these years to him and be left with nothing but memories... .but if I reunlite with him, I feel that he will continiue this BP pattern of push-pull and wanting a break or break-up when I get angry.  The possibility of either staying and enduring more breaks is painful---and right now I am in emotional pain due to the "break"... .

Shatra

[Grey Kitty]

Of course both options hurt. 

How many more 'break' cycles can you take?

[shatra]

I am feeling upset---I am not sure I would want to handle any more "breaks" ---and each one feels like it will be final.

[Jessica84]

I am feeling upset---I am not sure I would want to handle any more "breaks" ---and each one feels like it will be final.

I feel your pain. It's hard to end the cycle, equally hard to end the r/s. The breaks are painful, and every time feels like the final goodbye.

When mine took "breaks", the issues causing them never get resolved, they just went in hiding for awhile. These unresolved issues caused resentment in me so they kept resurfacing, leading to new breaks. I kept wanting assurances from him. I wanted to feel safe, secure and loved with more consistency. I've come to accept he can't give that to me. Not because he doesn't want to, but because he doesn't know how.

I'm learning to let go of the resentments and expectations. Practice forgiveness. And resolve the past hurts myself. He can't do that for me. I don't know if this helps you any, but thought I'd share... .hang in there! I know it's hard.

[Craydar]

In other words, I believe extinction burst can apply to them NOT doing a behavior (not contacting) for longer and longer, even without the former reinforcers,

Shatra,

Sure a loved can have an EB. When a pwBPD is silent for 3 months that telegraphs  something else. An EB is us not re-enforcing a behavior not a loved one with BPD and it leads to an extinction burst.

What's the back story on the EB's and 3 month break? Describe the EB.

Mutt, a quick question: What does the 3 months of silence from a pwBPD telegraph?  Thanks!

[shatra]

   I can't speak for Mutt, but a 3 month silence from a bPD might mean----

----He is  in the push-you-away phase of the push-pull because you got too close

----He is punishing you because you got angry at him (and he assumes that since you are mad your next step is to abandon him)

   I was thinking also that it could be him having Extinction Burst::::  In the past I "reinforced" him by contacting him after he took a 2 month break. So he is expecting that reinforcer, but after 2 months I don't call him, so he does more of the behavior (stayiing away is the behavior), more and more, so after 3 months he is "holding out" for me contacting him.

Shatra

[123Phoebe]

   I can't speak for Mutt, but a 3 month silence from a bPD might mean----

----He is  in the push-you-away phase of the push-pull because you got too close

----He is punishing you because you got angry at him (and he assumes that since you are mad your next step is to abandon him)

   I was thinking also that it could be him having Extinction Burst::::  In the past I "reinforced" him by contacting him after he took a 2 month break. So he is expecting that reinforcer, but after 2 months I don't call him, so he does more of the behavior (stayiing away is the behavior), more and more, so after 3 months he is "holding out" for me contacting him.

Shatra

To me, a 3 month silence from a pwBPD (or a person without) telegraphs that they're not emotionally invested in the same way the other person is.  Waiting and wondering why and what they might do next is akin to 'holding out' to see if they'll contact you first.  Could this be projection?  Or simply not wanting to let go of a dream?  Something else?  A lot can happen in 3 months time.

How are you doing, Shatra?  In what ways are you taking care of yourself?  If you connect again, how are you going to change your part of the dance?

[shatra]

Phoebe wrote---

To me, a 3 month silence from a pwBPD (or a person without) telegraphs that they're not emotionally invested in the same way the other person is.  Waiting and wondering why and what they might do next is akin to 'holding out' to see if they'll contact you first.  Could this be projection?  Or simply not wanting to let go of a dream?  Something else?  A lot can happen in 3 months time.

How are you doing, Shatra?  In what ways are you taking care of yourself?  If you connect again, how are you going to change your part of the dance?

---I'm not on a 3 month break from mine (we ended things 2 weeks ago)... .I was using that as an example. From what I've read on these boards and have seen with borderlines, a 3 (or 6, or 9, etc.) silence doesn't mean they're not emotionally invested----it means they are either angry about what the non did  and are being punitive, or they are in the push-pull phase, had gotten too emotionally close to the non, got scared, and pulled away for 3 months. From what I have heard directly from borderlines, they are OVERLY emotionally invested. A silence from a non can mean not being emotionally invested, but BPs are silent for a different reason than nons are.

--I am feeling upset, sad and angry. Taking care of myself by posting on these boards, working, reading about BPD, and trying to remember the bad times as well as the good ones with my ex. I don't think I am projecting onto him re: extinction burst, I posted this thread out of curiousity re: the burst, wondering if him holding out and waiting for me to contact him longer and longer this time can be the extinction burst. For example, since I am not going to be contacting him this time, he may wait longer than in the past to contact me, thinking that I'll contact him after 2 months, then 3 months, etc.  But I'm not going to give him that reinforcer anymore.

Shatra

[SickofMe]

From what I've read on these boards and have seen with borderlines, a 3 (or 6, or 9, etc.) silence doesn't mean they're not emotionally invested----it means they are either angry about what the non did  and are being punitive, or they are in the push-pull phase, had gotten too emotionally close to the non, got scared, and pulled away for 3 months. From what I have heard directly from borderlines, they are OVERLY emotionally invested. A silence from a non can mean not being emotionally invested, but BPs are silent for a different reason than nons are.

Having just reconciled with my BF, after what *I* thought was The End (and was the first real b/u in what is now nearly a 3 year r/s), and having many, many discussions with him about "his process" and "my process,"  I concur that what they are feeling/thinking/doing during these breaks is NOT what we think is going on (as relatively normal people).

He says that he was pining, anguishing, and missing me the whole time.  He says that he ended things with me bc he felt rejected and thought I didn't want to be with him, but didn't want to hurt him.  He says he knew all along that I loved him, but thought--essentially--that I no longer wanted to be in a r/s with him.  We had been having frequent fights, initiated by me, bc I was pretty much at the end of my emotional rope.  Being in a one-sided r/s that is dictated by HIS needs, moods, and dysfunction, has been emotionally exhausting.  Especially once the oxytocin began to wear off, as it will in any r/s over time.

I told him that I asked my T why I continued to make contact with him (not constantly, but every couple of weeks or so I would email or text... .testing the waters) when he made it profoundly clear he did not love me or want me anymore.  My hunch is because the b/u was eviscerating and traumatic, it was harder to let it go.  It stirred up a lot of old hurts and made me feel so damaged, I was compulsively trying to get "closure" (ha!) that was never coming.  I told him that he never told me to leave him alone (true) but responded to me with hostility and mixed-messages (also true).

So in a moment of quasi-self-awareness (which is as close as we ever get, on his side), he said that he was hoping I would say I didn't want to break up, to ask him to get back together, that I loved him and wanted to be with him. There is no possible way a sane, healthy person could have interpreted his behavior to mean this.

My point is, I agree that his silence IS a behavior, in and of itself, and, as such, could certainly show itself in an EB.

Their behavior is nonsensical, unpredictable, self-sabotaging, and overwhelmingly confusing.  I am not the world's most direct person, but in comparison to my BF, I am the picture of healthy communication and r/s skills.

Are you trying to wrap your mind around his distancing maneuver or trying to decide if you can extinguish it by simply not making contact again, ever, should this short break morph into one of the longer ones?

I found that the longer our b/u went on--the LESS healthy and balanced I felt--even though I had no real reason to think we'd ever reconcile since this was our first big hoopla.  That is what I'm working on w my T.  Why all the obsession, why the gutted feeling?

FWIW--I don't think your refusal to make contact with him will be effective, if what you are hoping is that by ignoring the behavior, you can extinguish it.  I say this bc nothing good happens in silence, unless you are truly able to focus on yourself and process your way through the quicksand.  I totally understand the motivation but there are days, weeks, and months of YOUR life at stake.  Currently, I'm trying to tell myself that I will do better, emotionally, by staying *in* this r/s and working on myself and really observing the patterns.  The eviscerated feeling was interfering with my functioning to the point that it scared me.

And, ironically, I think my BF was right:  I was heading toward the conclusion that I loved him but didn't want to be with him.  His strategic first-strike really upset the apple cart for me.

[123Phoebe]

To me, a 3 month silence from a pwBPD (or a person without) telegraphs that they're not emotionally invested in the same way the other person is.

---I'm not on a 3 month break from mine (we ended things 2 weeks ago)... .I was using that as an example. From what I've read on these boards and have seen with borderlines, a 3 (or 6, or 9, etc.) silence doesn't mean they're not emotionally invested----it means they are either angry about what the non did  and are being punitive, or they are in the push-pull phase, had gotten too emotionally close to the non, got scared, and pulled away for 3 months. From what I have heard directly from borderlines, they are OVERLY emotionally invested. A silence from a non can mean not being emotionally invested, but BPs are silent for a different reason than nons are.

Shatra, feeling upset, sad and angry is TOTALLY understandable.  Breakups can leave us feeling so out of sorts and just ugh, looking for answers. 

I may be reading too much into this and JADEing, but please take note that I said 'neither' are emotionally invested in the same way the other person is.  I didn't say they're not emotionally invested.  I also didn't say that they are.  A lot would have to do with what's going on during that 2-3 month break and the reason for the breakup.  No nons or pwBPD are all alike.

If a pattern has been established where 2-3 month breaks occur, the relationship resumes after that, then this is part and parcel of this particular relationship dynamic; 2-3 month breaks aren't out of the ordinary.

I think it's great that you're not going to reinforce this behavior!  It leaves me wondering though, that if he contacts you after 3 months, will you resume the relationship?  What about 3 weeks?

Let's say it is an extinction burst.  Then what?  What does that mean for you?  How would knowing wholeheartedly that he is in the throes of an extinction burst help this relationship along, if that is your intention, seeing that you posted this on the Staying board?

Do you want to be with this man?

[shatra]

Phoebe wrote---

"I said 'neither' are emotionally invested in the same way the other person is.  I didn't say they're not emotionally invested. A lot would have to do with what's going on during that 2-3 month break and the reason for the breakup."

---To me, the way a BPD may be emot. invested in a different way is maybe they are afraid to feel as strong an emot. connection, for fear of future abandonment. Some BPs I have spoken to claim the strong connection but they don't express it (again out of fear, so they say), or it is inconsistent (due to splitting and push-pull). Did you mean something different?  In my case, the reason for the breakup is that I got angry at him and he is fearful that it means I am leaving him... .he later changed it to a "break", which I did not agree to.

Phoebe wrote

"I think it's great that you're not going to reinforce this behavior!  It leaves me wondering though, that if he contacts you after 3 months, will you resume the relationship?"

------Yes, I feel I didn't reinforce the "break" by agreeing to it, and I don't intend to reinforce his "behavior" of avoiding me during the "break", by contacting him after the break (as I did in the past).

    "Let's say it is an extinction burst.  Then what?  What does that mean for you?  How would knowing wholeheartedly that he is in the throes of an extinction burst help this relationship along"

------It would help me understand the BP process more, and see that he may extend the "break", with avoidance as the behavior that got reinforced in the past, and to understand my behavior more. In the past when I contacted him after a break, he expressed happiness and relief, and said "I was afraid you were mad at me, I'm glad you broke the ice", so it was a form of reinforcer that I was actually giving him.

":)o you want to be with this man?"

------Truly only if he were to be able to work through conflicts instead of running away when I get angry, if he were to be more reliable (or I would be more accepting of his unreliability), express feelings in a healthy way, etc. and so I feel upset that this is too tall of an order for him----unrealistic for me to believe he would change, and I would feel miserable going through yet another break. So do I want to be with him "as he is"?  I feel sad to say, no.

Shatra

[Grey Kitty]

":)o you want to be with this man?"

------Truly only if he were to be able to work through conflicts instead of running away when I get angry, if he were to be more reliable (or I would be more accepting of his unreliability), express feelings in a healthy way, etc. and so I feel upset that this is too tall of an order for him----unrealistic for me to believe he would change, and I would feel miserable going through yet another break. So do I want to be with him "as he is"?  I feel sad to say, no.

My tough question: If you believe what you wrote here... .would you want to resume your r/s with him if he does get back in touch next week?

You don't get to look in a crystal ball and see what changes he will (or won't make).

All you will ever get to do is look at his behavior and decide what it means to you.

[shatra]

Grey wrote

My tough question: If you believe what you wrote here... .would you want to resume your r/s with him if he does get back in touch next week?

----I feel sad to say no... .he is too inconsistent, and I have the feeling that the breaks would become bigger and longer, full of more pain, if we were to get closer (from what I've heard from other nons, more closeness brings out more conflicts with them).  I feel too angry and think too realistically now to believe that we could be closer without him pushing me away and breaking it off.

Shatra