Will a court order calm him down at last?

[Indyan]

Hi,

I saw a therapist a few days ago and he was clear about one thing : "Only law can stop this kind of personnality" (about BPD/STPD)

My lawyer said the same thing.

This week she'll make proposals for him to have baby at week-ends. But then we'll have to arrange for Xmas, birthday, holidays... .

All this is a source of stress... .

What's your experience on this?

I'm scared he will always ask for more and destroy my life for ever... .  :'(

[livednlearned]

People with BPD are boundary busters, so it takes real authority to keep them from steam rolling over things. I developed a titanium backbone with my ex and learned to enforce boundaries, and that went a long way, not just at containing some of his behaviors, but to protect myself as well. However, even good boundaries are not enough when there is a child involved, which is why you need a watertight custody order. And this is important -- you have to stick to it. No negotiations. Not with someone who is BPD. Especially not in the beginning when you get the court to set the boundary. That means if the court order says your child has 3 nights a week with your ex, you don't start allowing your child to spend 4 nights. 

The part that's really exasperating is that you essentially become the person who enforces the court order. If your ex does not follow the order, then you have to go to court and file a motion for contempt. Court being what it is, it can sometimes take a while before the judge starts to see a pattern, and that can get expensive. If you are part of the dysfunctional pattern, meaning if you soften the boundaries that you fought to get included in the order, then you undermine your authority, and you make it less likely that the court will rule in your favor.

That's why you see people talk about boundaries here so often. It's not a soft and fuzzy squishy thing, it's the real deal. When there are kids involved, and someone with BPD, boundaries have to come before everything else.

It's going to be stressful for a while until you build your boundaries up. And yes, he will always ask for more. Your job is to stick to your boundaries. He can't destroy your life if you don't let him.

Take a look at a really good parenting plan to see what kinds of issues can come up, things that you know will need to be negotiated. Put as many items in your custody order as possible so you have rules in place. Anything that he might try to negotiate with you about, have something you can quote back to him. Start a thread asking people what you should put in the parenting order and you'll get a lot of great suggestions.

Like whether to do rights of first refusal (ROFR), how long you have to wait at exchanges, who can take care of the baby if one of you cannot. When your child goes to school and visitation is from Friday to Sun, be specific about what time it starts. Like 5pm, or 6pm. Leave nothing vague, and have consequences. Your ex won't abide by any of this, of course, but when you go to court, you want something legal that says, "A parent must notify the other parent within 2 hours if visitation cannot occur. Failure to notify results in this other plan of action xyz." That way, the judge is more likely to rule in favor of whatever plan of action or consequence you include in the custody order.

[Indyan]

wow, thanks for all this, I had no idea we needed a plan of action in case he doesn't respect the decisions.

Freaky 

[livednlearned]

wow, thanks for all this, I had no idea we needed a plan of action in case he doesn't respect the decisions.

Freaky  

Your L, if they don't know BPD too well, won't be paying super close attention to the "what if" part. You have to really step it up and make that part important, because to a lawyer, if your ex doesn't follow the order, then the lawyer steps in and you all go back to court. No big deal.

But it is a big deal. It's expensive, and you don't want to spend money only to have the judge admonish both of you. It happens! Judges want to see grown ups in court, and BPD dynamics have a tendency to reduce people to child-like behaviors. Judges will not rule in your favor if you can't be the most grown-up person in the court room, so you have to resist engaging with your ex in any way that looks like you don't have your full act together. Not fair, but that's how it is.

So just like you do with kids, focus on consequences for non-compliance. Get that stuff in writing, and chances are it will be reasonable enough that the other party signs. Judges love problem-solving, solution-oriented, agreeable people. Then, when your ex doesn't comply and you have enough documentation to go to court and ask for less visitation or more legal custody or whatever you are seeking, you have enough to show a pattern of problematic behavior. AND you have the consequences clearly written out. For example, in my orders, once I figured this out, it would say things like, "If a party does not comply with the order, they will pay legal fees."

Also, another thing that helped me. Make sure your L is the one who writes up the order. One of them usually has to do it, and they'll be very collegial and casual about it. Even if it costs you more money, have your L write everything up. Look at it closely before it gets shipped to the other party for approval. Don't hand over authority to your L on this stuff -- it's really important that you be involved and notice everything. If you don't understand why something is in there, or you notice something important is missing, then say so. That order becomes a really important part of the strategy to use court to enforce boundaries and you can't have it be anything less than rock solid.

My L wrote every single order and she made sure that it itemized the long list of things -- even as we got into year 4 of our court saga, each order had everything in there. After a while, judges don't read the stacks of paper. My L wanted to make sure that the whole story was always in one order so the judge could see the pattern right there in one document if that's all they were going to read.

You can turn your ship around. It will take time -- you won't have as much court stuff as me is my guess. My ex is a former trial attorney and he took his full-blown BPD to the court room and represented his whole disordered self. Most BPD ex spouses don't have that kind of arrogance or comfort with the legal system to take things that far. It just meant I spent a lot of money and time watching things go down in court and figured a few things out from a master. My L is excellent and without her, I think I would've been chewed up and spat out a few times by other lawyers who didn't understand what I was up against.

[Indyan]

My ex is a former trial attorney and he took his full-blown BPD to the court room and represented his whole disordered self. Most BPD ex spouses don't have that kind of arrogance or comfort with the legal system to take things that far. It just meant I spent a lot of money and time watching things go down in court and figured a few things out from a master. My L is excellent and without her, I think I would've been chewed up and spat out a few times by other lawyers who didn't understand what I was up against.

Wow, sounds more like NPD!

I'm impressed with your stamina  

Thanks a million for this. It's good to be informed. I'll talk to my L about the "what ifs" and try not to forget anything he could try to trick me with.

It's hard though because despite all his threats and rubbish, he's been inconsistent and I'm not even sure he wants to break-up (and I don't know about myself either), but his family does.

[Panda39]

It's hard though because despite all his threats and rubbish, he's been inconsistent and I'm not even sure he wants to break-up (and I don't know about myself either), but his family does.

I know everthing you are going through is tough, painful and exhasting but he and his family are abusive to you... .you do not want to stay with this man you deserve much better. 

[ForeverDad]

If you don't want the break-up, then ponder what will happen if you get back together again... .  Unless he is in meaningful therapy and making real progress, probably for years, then any reconciliation will put you back into the old love/hate cycles of behavior patterns.  Do you want that?  Can you risk going back to Square One?

The consensus here is that going back if there have not been significant changes for the better, back to the same old patterns, is a huge step backward in many ways, emotionally, financially and perhaps legally too.

[Indyan]

If you don't want the break-up, then ponder what will happen if you get back together again... .  Unless he is in meaningful therapy and making real progress, probably for years, then any reconciliation will put you back into the old love/hate cycles of behavior patterns.  Do you want that?  Can you risk going back to Square One?

The consensus here is that going back if there have not been significant changes for the better, back to the same old patterns, is a huge step backward in many ways, emotionally, financially and perhaps legally too.

No, never will I go back anywhere.

The only way would be 1) urgent treatment (according to T) but HE is far from doing it 2) sincere and realistic apologies and repair 3) no family involved at any cost (sounds impossible)

That's why I'm totally losing hope.

And no, I'm not in love with the man I saw yesterday. I saw a poor guy, he's lost a lot of weight (me too), with bulging eyes, paranoid and agressive and then who burst into tears... .no thanks .

[livednlearned]

Being inconsistent in your thoughts/feelings toward your ex is one thing, but being inconsistent when you are dealing with custody is a whole other mess you cannot even imagine.

What I learned the hard way is that court is looking for a stable grown up. If you don't demonstrate -- through your actions -- that you are a consistent, stable grown up, then you will be treated like a child. Like an authoritarian parent, the court will make decisions about some of the most intimate, important parts of your life because high-conflict divorces come across to judges as two squabbling kids who don't have the skills to take care of a child on their own.

So first, you get treated like two stupid kids fighting in a sandbox. Your job is to walk in and say, "My number one priority is my child' well-being, and I am the only parent here who can really do that." Court won't believe you right away, but if you live up to the reputation of being a grown up, over time you will chip away and get what is best for your daughter. Legal technicalities are different than "justice" or common sense. There are all kinds of things that you can't see coming your way, but they're there. I pictured it like a long hallway with doors that kept closing each time I passed through them. You can't open those doors again. Only with a lot of effort and money and serious reasons that the court may or may not believe can you ever open those doors. That means decisions are a one-way street. Flip flopping isn't exactly tolerated in the legal system. And every time you want to change something, you have to spend a lot of money -- you don't want to spend thousands of dollars only to have the judge say, "Time out for both parents." You end up paying for an expensive hand lap and not much else. And the more you focus on the adult relationship, the more court gets irritated with you. Only thing court cares about is your child, and if you are seen as taking your eye off that prize for one second, you'll get scolded.

Keep seeing your therapist and get a hold of this. The combination of BPD and family court is a nightmare and you can't afford to sabotage yourself.

[Indyan]

I guess this will be bery hard for him (although his lawyer will do the talking) to separate the r/s from our child.

He's so much in the "I'm the victim" scenario that the entire world needs to know of this... .

[momtara]

My exH and I have two little kids and he wanted to come home.  He filed to get primary physical custody, which of course intimidated me.  He'd sent me emails over the year saying he couldn't really take care of the kids, but that didn't stop him from filing for physical custody.  But when mandatory medication came, he only asked to have them every other weekend.  That was a relief to me, although he's since gotten nuttier and I always wish I'd done a psych eval... .

Keep in mind that you can put in a lot of little details and technical stuff.  If you have a younger child, you can maybe try to have that one go on fewer visits until a certain age.

You could try to put in that if the kids are sick, they stay home with you.  Then you get to define what "sick" is.    I wish I'd stuck that one in.  It would have been quite helpful. 

For holidays, setting pickup and dropoff times is important... .also, how many weeks in advance you agree on them.  You don't want him waiting til the last minute to tell you what he's doing for Thanksgiving.

[Indyan]

That was a relief to me, although he's since gotten nuttier and I always wish I'd done a psych eval... .

You could try to put in that if the kids are sick, they stay home with you. 

Thanks for this, hadn't thought of it.

"He's gotten nuttier"... .that scares me. Because I was thinking of NOT mentionning his mental health but you're right, he might get worse (he did for the last months).

[ForeverDad]

It would be self-sabotaging to hide important information from the professionals involved - court, lawyer, evaluators, etc.  Do what you have to do, report what you have to report, just don't go out of your way to needlessly trigger your ex.  Yes, court and evaluators may not care about a diagnosis (unless it's a murder case) but they do listen to the reported behaviors and behavior patterns.

For that reason, don't appear to be Playing Doctor by advocating a specific label.  Courts profess to be ignorant of diagnostic labels and evaluators and therapists are reluctant to commit themselves to a named diagnosis.  However, documenting and reporting poor or concerning behaviors is entirely appropriate.

Of course, it doesn't mean the professionals will see it as 'actionable' but at least it will be on the table, gets it documented and if it is included in the court record then it can be referenced later as a continuing or recurring issue.

[Indyan]

However, documenting and reporting poor or concerning behaviors is entirely appropriate.

That's the reason I need to file a complaint for emotionnal abuse.

To keep a record of all this.

[livednlearned]

However, documenting and reporting poor or concerning behaviors is entirely appropriate.

That's the reason I need to file a complaint for emotionnal abuse.

To keep a record of all this.

Especially stuff that affects your child, or your ability to parent appropriately. Court doesn't seem to care as much about adult behaviors, although if it is extreme enough to impact your ability to be a good parent, then it counts. I found, though, that it took years of documenting my ex's behavior. And in my case, N/BPDx started to direct his disordered behavior toward court and people working on behalf of the court.

[Indyan]

And in my case, N/BPDx started to direct his disordered behavior toward court and people working on behalf of the court.

Like what?

My BPD won't make that mistake (at least, not yet), he will act nicely and let his lawyer do the talking. I've no doubt of that.

[livednlearned]

And in my case, N/BPDx started to direct his disordered behavior toward court and people working on behalf of the court.

Like what?

My BPD won't make that mistake (at least, not yet), he will act nicely and let his lawyer do the talking. I've no doubt of that.

He accused the judge of lying  , he threatened the parenting coordinator, he berated his attorney in the courtroom, causing his L to withdraw from the case. N/BPDx didn't follow the custody order, he threatened my attorney by email, and basically told the court he didn't agree with the ruling. You can imagine how much the judge loved that 

If you ex is not as narcissistic as mine, then you develop a different strategy to flush out whatever disordered behaviors you need the court to see. If your ex makes false allegations or has a tendency to make stuff up, then you depose him to get a sworn testimony that can later be used to cross-examine him for perjury, undermining his credibility. If you want to get a third-party involved to see how much conflict and abuse your ex generates, maybe you have a parenting coordinator assigned to the case.

Lots of people here don't get what they want the first time around. That's why this is a marathon, not a sprint. You may not get what you want the first time around, but BPD is a fairly predictable mental illness, and once the court clock starts ticking, all that documented behavior is fair game. So yes, maybe your ex sits quietly next to his lawyer and can be a model client in the short term. But if he is BPD, and you have a good strategy, it's just a matter of time before you have something to show the court. The key is to do it without experiencing crippling stress and a mountain of debt.

[Indyan]

He accused the judge of lying  

If you ex is not as narcissistic as mine, then you develop a different strategy to flush out whatever disordered behaviors you need the court to see. If your ex makes false allegations or has a tendency to make stuff up, then you depose him to get a sworn testimony that can later be used to cross-examine him for perjury, undermining his credibility. If you want to get a third-party involved to see how much conflict and abuse your ex generates, maybe you have a parenting coordinator assigned to the case.

Sorry I don't know what a "parenting coordinator" is.

His main "disordered behaviour" is paranoia and victimization with false allegations (I used to beat him up, I didn't let him see his baby after our breakup, I harass him... .). I have to be careful not to get upset when he accuses me (if he gets the time or opportunity to do it, although I doubt his lawyer will let him do this).

But if he is BPD, and you have a good strategy, it's just a matter of time before you have something to show the court. The key is to do it without experiencing crippling stress and a mountain of debt.

Something I'm convinced of is that he's biting off more than he can chew. He's never liked having to look after baby for hours and hours on.

He's on a crusade to save his honour, with the "help" of his family, when all this is just too much for him to handle.

Papers, lawyers, appartment, family, baby, work: he's going to end up blowing a massive fuse sooner or later.

It's just a question of when and how.

[ForeverDad]

Something I'm convinced of is that he's biting off more than he can chew. He's never liked having to look after baby for hours and hours on.

He's on a crusade to save his honour, with the "help" of his family, when all this is just too much for him to handle.

Yes, a lot of what we have to deal with is saving face, looking good, a "public mask of seeming normalcy".  It should be "my baby needs me", but a disordered person (me-centric) is likely to claim "I need my baby".  My ex was very entitled as Mother of the Year (MOTY) and may have even been coached, she managed to word it properly, "my child needs me".

Be careful not to settle for allowing him a lot of time without setting up Right of First Refusal (ROFR).  Otherwise he may in time just park the kid with his parents or other relatives during his parenting time.  ROFR means is that if either of you can't watch the child for a certain threshold amount of time during your parenting time, then the other parent gets offered the child first before asking others.  School of course is exempted.

In my case, knowing how entitled my ex was, I also set ROFR to ignore daycare the same as the school.  She still tried to get our son for the two hours from the end of school until I got off work but the order's ROFR terms prevailed.  Court order trumps entitlement.   Be aware that ROFR usually applies to you just as much as to him - unless the court agree to any imbalance in your favor.  Consider the implications.

How many hours to set the ROFR trigger is something to ponder too.  Too short and you are always having to offer.  Too long and it seldom gets used.  I started out with 5 hours but every time the school was closed and I had to work then I had to either take a vacation day or offer him to his mother.  I was wanting to increase it to 10 hours to handle that scenario but then he was old enough to stay home alone and so it was dropped from the order.  (States vary by age on the matter of latchkey kids, some states base it on the child's maturity rather than a specific age.)

[livednlearned]

Sorry I don't know what a "parenting coordinator" is.

In some states, they are court-appointed, and have an extension of judicial duties. In my state, for example, they are sworn in by a judge, and they are to keep squabbling parents out of the court system. No judge wants to see two parents in his or her court arguing over whether or not their teen-age daughter should wear make-up or not. So PCs came along as a way to try and solve this. Your state might not have them, but it's good to check and ask. They can either be lawyers or therapists and typically go through training, and some even have authority to modify custody, although that's very contentious.

His main "disordered behaviour" is paranoia and victimization with false allegations (I used to beat him up, I didn't let him see his baby after our breakup, I harass him... .). I have to be careful not to get upset when he accuses me (if he gets the time or opportunity to do it, although I doubt his lawyer will let him do this).

His lawyer is ethically obligated to represent him, so often the opposing L will say whatever his/her client says. Be prepared for that. The more you can regulate your own emotional reactions, the better. I know it's hard to do, because your very personal information is being discussed by relative strangers, and the stakes are high. Focus that energy on your strategy. You already know what your BPDx is like and how he does things, so your job is to communicate this to the L and come up with a strategy. Be a step ahead, and know how things work where you live. You have to be the boss, so ask your L lots of questions. Make sure there is a long-term strategy, not just a short one. Lots of Ls think about the custody order as a one-shot thing that will end in a few months. It isn't like that for us -- we're the high-conflict divorces that cost the court a ton of money and you need a long-term strategy beyond that first custody order.

[Indyan]

How many hours to set the ROFR trigger is something to ponder too. 

I don't think this exists in my country (France).

I've heard many friends complain about their ex dropping the kids at his mother every week-end.

I think it is considered that "one does what he/she wants during their parenting time" (as long as kids are safe).

[Indyan]

Make sure there is a long-term strategy

Do you mean I need to ALREADY have a plan for LATER? Such as summer hols and when baby grows up?

[livednlearned]

Make sure there is a long-term strategy

Do you mean I need to ALREADY have a plan for LATER? Such as summer hols and when baby grows up?

I mean having a long-term legal strategy. It could be different where you are, but where I live, the first custody order is not the last. Not when BPD is involved.

[momtara]

If he secretly doesn't want to care for the baby, maybe there's a way to make it seem like his idea not to take the baby, or a way to make it so he saves face.  That's why keeping the baby home if he/she seems sick is an idea.  

[Indyan]

If he secretly doesn't want to care for the baby, maybe there's a way to make it seem like his idea not to take the baby, or a way to make it so he saves face.  That's why keeping the baby home if he/she seems sick is an idea.  

TOTALLY. I thought that too.

I need a way to make him "feel good with himself" if he doesn't take baby. Although I'm pretty sure his family will keep asking him.

But the way I've thought of his "to inform me at least 1h in advance" if he can't pick up baby.

This way, if he's "not well" (in one of his low moods), it should give him the opportunity to change his mind.

[Iforget]

I don't know if others mentioned this in another thread.  But, you should start a journal.  Write down everything he does and date it.  It will be useful if you have to point out crazy, irrattic behavior.  Also, you should consider getting a voice recorder.  The voice recorder has really saved me a couple of times.  I would send you a copy of my custody order but it is on another computer.  Six pages long and very detailed.

[livednlearned]

If he secretly doesn't want to care for the baby, maybe there's a way to make it seem like his idea not to take the baby, or a way to make it so he saves face.  That's why keeping the baby home if he/she seems sick is an idea.  

TOTALLY. I thought that too.

I need a way to make him "feel good with himself" if he doesn't take baby. Although I'm pretty sure his family will keep asking him.

But the way I've thought of his "to inform me at least 1h in advance" if he can't pick up baby.

This way, if he's "not well" (in one of his low moods), it should give him the opportunity to change his mind.

Is this realistic? One of the core problems with BPD sufferers is that they kick down boundaries. Does he respect your boundaries now? It doesn't sound like it. In fact, when you set a boundary, it seems like he is more likely to kick it down because he can. Your boundaries don't mean much to him. If he changes his mind about taking the baby, he isn't likely to care about an arbitrary 1 hour time limit to notify you.

It's a disorder marked by emotional dysregulation, so 1 + 1 isn't going to equal 2 like it does with logic.

You can't reason with someone who is unreasonable.