Mediation tomorrow... need a pep talk

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Got mediation tomorrow, UBPD/NPDstbexw 10 years no kids.   Freaking out a 'lil bit because my ex has Lorrena Bobbitt shears in one hand and a personal injury law firm representing me and somehow I'm supposed to be paying for both sides... .What?

This is going to cost me $800/hr. and I'm afraid that it is just a checkbox she has to get in order to go to a court mandated temporary alimony setttlement (I moved out 7 months ago and still supporting her 100%... .while she's completely frivolous and won't use her income to help with anything mutual)

Just any advice would be appreciated.

[Heartandsole]

Got mediation tomorrow, UBPD/NPDstbexw 10 years no kids.   Freaking out a 'lil bit because my ex has Lorrena Bobbitt shears in one hand and a personal injury law firm representing me and somehow I'm supposed to be paying for both sides... .What?

This is going to cost me $800/hr. and I'm afraid that it is just a checkbox she has to get in order to go to a court mandated temporary alimony setttlement (I moved out 7 months ago and still supporting her 100%... .while she's completely frivolous and won't use her income to help with anything mutual)

Just any advice would be appreciated.

[ForeverDad]

First, is this within the structure of a divorce process?  Understand that courts do want parents to try mediation, so you do need to at least try.  However, as painful as negotiating might be, your only obligation is to try, you have no obligation to agree to her demands or to suffer endless back and forth.  If at some point you come to the conclusion - as nearly all of us do - that you've tried to be reasonable but any further time spent would be spinning your wheels ineffectively, then yes say "I've tried, I've made reasonable counter-offers but they're ignored or our positions are still so far apart, mediation isn't working, time to move on to the next step."

Why is trying mediation in the early stages of a divorce so prone to failure?  Because the other person still has far too much entitlement to really negotiate.  Most of us have found that if a settlement is reached - and surprisingly most of us do settle eventually - then it is usually right before a looming major hearing or trial.  (For me, I arrived at court on Trial Morning and was greeted with the news my stbEx was finally ready to settle.)

Frankly, the extreme demands of the other spouse are so unreasonable that in nearly all cases we would get a better decision from a judge than from a settlement with the ex-spouse, especially at the start.  Still, courts want us to try, just realize that when it becomes fruitless you can call an end to the theatrics and save some money.

Negotiation is the art of give and take.  Reasonable people know how to do that, ask for a little more than you expect to walk away with so you have something to give up.  Entitled persons can't or won't negotiate, all they have are, to put it nicely, terms of your surrender.  Be aware and beware.  Also, every time you make an accommodation or grant a demand, it is likely to enable more demands because your reasonableness is perceived as weakness... .if you gave in on that then surely you will give in on the other demands.  Also, even when you think the deal is final, ex is almost sure to renege and demand more before it can be finalized in court.  Anticipate that too.

So what you need to keep in mind are boundaries, limits, and if ex demands more than you are willing to grant, then call it quits.  I recall on Trial Morning my ex was pressuring and begging to stay Residential Parent for School Purposes.  I kept simply stating that if I wasn't to be RP then we'd go back inside and let the judge decide.  Even both lawyers said it didn't mean anything if we were to have Shared Parenting.  But I held firm and became RP.  Guess what... .though the school agreed to let son continue on in her school for the final 3 months of the school year, she caused enough scenes that 5 weeks before summer break the school notified me I had one day to register him in my own school district.  What kid gets kicked out of Kindergarten?  Oh yes, Residential Parent did mean something in my case.  And I wouldn't have been RP without taking a stand on things that mattered to me.  (It took years but I now have custody.)

Depending on whether you are a community property state, you may have to split some assets or gains that occurred over the length of the marriage but likely you wont have to provide alimony or support for more than a few years, enough for her to get some job training and find a job.

[Heartandsole]

First, is this within the structure of a divorce process?  Understand that courts do want parents to try mediation, so you do need to at least try.  However, as painful as negotiating might be, your only obligation is to try, you have no obligation to agree to her demands or to suffer endless back and forth.  If at some point you come to the conclusion - as nearly all of us do - that you've tried to be reasonable but any further time spent would be spinning your wheels ineffectively, then yes say "I've tried, I've made reasonable counter-offers but they're ignored or our positions are still so far apart, mediation isn't working, time to move on to the next step."

Why is trying mediation in the early stages of a divorce so prone to failure?  Because the other person still has far too much entitlement to really negotiate.  Most of us have found that if a settlement is reached - and surprisingly most of us do settle eventually - then it is usually right before a looming major hearing or trial.  (For me, I arrived at court on Trial Morning and was greeted with the news my stbEx was finally ready to settle.)

Frankly, the extreme demands of the other spouse are so unreasonable that in nearly all cases we would get a better decision from a judge than from a settlement with the ex-spouse, especially at the start.  Still, courts want us to try, just realize that when it becomes fruitless you can call an end to the theatrics and save some money.

Negotiation is the art of give and take.  Reasonable people know how to do that, ask for a little more than you expect to walk away with so you have something to give up.  Entitled persons can't or won't negotiate, all they have are, to put it nicely, terms of your surrender.  Be aware and beware.  Also, every time you make an accommodation or grant a demand, it is likely to enable more demands because your reasonableness is perceived as weakness... .if you gave in on that then surely you will give in on the other demands.  Also, even when you think the deal is final, ex is almost sure to renege and demand more before it can be finalized in court.  Anticipate that too.

So what you need to keep in mind are boundaries, limits, and if ex demands more than you are willing to grant, then call it quits.  I recall on Trial Morning my ex was pressuring and begging to stay Residential Parent for School Purposes.  I kept simply stating that if I wasn't to be RP then we'd go back inside and let the judge decide.  Even both lawyers said it didn't mean anything if we were to have Shared Parenting.  But I held firm and became RP.  Guess what... .though the school agreed to let son continue on in her school for the final 3 months of the school year, she caused enough scenes that 5 weeks before summer break the school notified me I had one day to register him in my own school district.  What kid gets kicked out of Kindergarten?  Oh yes, Residential Parent did mean something in my case.  And I wouldn't have been RP without taking a stand on things that mattered to me.  (It took years but I now have custody.)

Depending on whether you are a community property state, you may have to split some assets or gains that occurred over the length of the marriage but likely you wont have to provide alimony or support for more than a few years, enough for her to get some job training and find a job.

No kids, thank goodness, and we are in a no-fault state, basically just have to split up assets... however the sticking points is that she feels entitled to some things that are non-marital assets, and also is putting a very high value on my interest (marital asset) in a closely held business.  She is more than six figures off this value, and it will be expensive and painful to get it valued, and even then I would have a hard time believing the value, because of the quirky nature of the business.

Her history is that she will argue until everyone agrees with her position.  That combined with a delusions of grandeur and entitlement, her not having much of an income in recent years because of health issues is got me nervous.  She wants a good chunk of alimony too (again six figures over three years) plus rehabilitative alimiony, after I have paid for her to change and get trained in several carrers and she has a degree. 

Going to the judge will cost time and metal anguish and a forensic audit at $20K.  so I'm trying to steer clear-- good lord I want this to be done... .oh yeah, she wants to be the real estate agent to sell our home.  Geez- she's staying there and changed the locks, and I pay all the mortgage and utilities.  If she's not the agent, the house is bound to be a total mess and she'll not be cooperative...

[miller48]

MY BPD ex also settled literally the afternoon before the Hearing was scheduled the following morning.

Not sure if that's exlcusive to BPD's or just the way it is. 

[ForeverDad]

Might be simpler to keep things moving along in court.  There's no excuse for her not to be working and earning well, you helped her get a degree, etc. 

And absolutely no, she can't be the agent selling the house, that leaves her in control and could stretch it out for years.  The property sale agreement has to be ironclad with consequences for noncompliance.  That she has possession is tough, she feels she's in total control.  If she doesn't list, show, sign sale papers or whatever then she has to vacate within XX days and you have a realtor sell it.  (Some who have gone through this have had a sale take 1-2 years, an ironclad agreement with clear consequences is crucial, court will still be too lenient and too patient with obstructions and pleas for more time but at least the chaos is less than it would be otherwise.)  Damages or other prep work below a certain basic amount to be deducted from proceeds, anything above comes from her portion of the equity.

And be careful not to counter your own offers.  If you make an offer, then its up to her and her lawyers to agree or counter it.  Don't let silence or minor concessions get you unnerved and willing to gift ever more away.  It's OK to say, "No, that's unreasonable and unacceptable, period."  Remember, the more you make concessions, the more she'll expand her demand.  She will perceive your concessions as weakness.  Understand her psychology and perspective.  If you say, "No" then it should stay No unless a major change in something is made.

Odds of a deal are poor, at least in the early stages, keep it moving along in court.  Yes, experts assigned and time in court is expensive, but so is her dragging it out for who knows how long (with court willingly granting interim support) until you give in more and more.  A lot of people come here thinking, I have to avoid the expense of court.  Frankly, it will be expensive either way.  Do you want to let the court follow its process and have the experts determine what is appropriate and the judge make decisions or do you honestly think you can make her see reason or be reasonable?  Would the crumbs she is willing to grant you be more than what the court would decide, even adjusting for the legal expense?

Meanwhile keep the court process moving along as fast as possible since delays will only favor her.  We often find that once the ex and ex's lawyer see the clock running out they may be less unwilling to make a livable settlement.  Maybe.

Here's another tactic for mediation.  Ex will keep trying to add advantages and concessions bit by bit to get what she wants.  But remember that unless any interim negotiations are binding, you or she can get up and walk out.  What I'm saying is that you don't have to feel under any pressure to "make a deal or else", you always have the court/trial option and you'd probably get a better deal from court than you would from the ex.  However, a court trial, as it looms closer, may make her try less unreasonable demands.  Right now she's nowhere near that point.

If you need a copy of Splitting quick, you can buy and download it in eBook format.

[Heartandsole]

And absolutely no, she can't be the agent selling the house, that leaves her in control and could stretch it out for years.  The property sale agreement has to be ironclad with consequences for noncompliance. 

If you need a copy of Splitting quick, you can buy and download it in eBook format.

She is a Realtor, and my thinking is if she doesn't list it (she can list it for no commission too) then she won't make it ready to show, won't deal with the dog etc.  If she is in charge with listing it, it plays to her narcissistic side and she will want to do a decent job.  I agree that doing some kind of agreement on the side would be a good idea. 

Got Splitting- gonna review some chapters tonight.  Thanks ForeverDad!

You have some great comments it is good to be reminded of today.