In a pickle

[suchsadness]

Hi Everyone 

Well, as my subject says... .I feel like I am in a big, big mess.  Thank heavens I am still taking anti-anxiety medication or it could be worse.

I won't go into all the details of my situation, but as some of you know I have a BPD dd37, single mom with 2 boys, who has been on and off contact with me over the past two years.  She was abusive and raging, went NC - then short contact - NC, and finally in July contacted me when she hit bottom.  She was homeless, no car and completely devastated.  My sister and I went to see her out of state and tried to help her find resources for housing.  We found a Women's Center that has good resources but she had to spend time at a homeless shelter to verify her homelessness.  She lied about going there after we left the state, and made up these horrendous stories about being robbed and her car was vandalized, etc.  My sister checked around about her being able to test for her CNA certificate in our state... .and I ended up bringing her back to our state to test.  She spent a month back home, got her certificate and worked a job long enough to transfer her certificate to her home state.  While she was gone her ex-husband reported her as a missing person (even tho he knew exactly where she was and what she was doing) to try to gain sole custody of her children.  She was served papers to appear in court at the airport on her return to her home state - and went to court 2 days later.  She was ordered to have a residence and a car that was titled and registered in her name (according to her) in order to have her boys.  There would be no overnights until she has resided in the same place for 90 days.  She has a history of moving from friend to friend and dragging the boys to new places regularly... .so we thought this was good that she would stop this.  Very long story short (and I can't even believe I am writing this), we ended up purchasing a condo for her to rent from us!  Not only that, I had told her we weren't buying her a car so my sister organized a little family fundraiser to purchase my nephew's car, fix it up, and insure it for 6 months.  This was a total of over $3,000.

So - we (me, my dh - who was not excited about buying a condo for her but went along with it, and entire family) were hoping this would give her a new start and she would be able to keep custody of her boys.  She says she has a job, but I believe she is doing only "as needed" position and picking/choosing hours based on when she gets her boys.  I saw a paystub and she had only worked about 23 hours over a 2 week period.  We let her be rent free in October, only charged for condo fees for November, and told her she needs to start paying full rent ($500) in December... .no payment as of today.  My dh is getting very upset, and I can't blame him.  She actually signed a lease with our corporation but my husband and I are the corporation.  My dd has told me lie after lie after lie - over the past few months.  I can't believe a word she says.  She told me "go ahead and evict me" at one point to which I said "it won't be me or dh evicting you, it will be the corporation you signed your lease with".  She doesn't know that we are sole owners of the corporation... .but it probably wouldn't matter anyway. 

AND - not only do we have this condo mess, but we had also told my other dd39 that we would do the same for her!  WOW what was I thinking?  My T said we should not do another condo.  My dh and I have agreed that if we end up evicting my dd37 that we can offer my dd39 the condo... .but I can see that would be a holy mess as well.  All I can say is that I just feel overwhelmed and in a huge pickle!  I guess I had hope that we could get my dd37 on her feet and help her have a chance to keep her boys.  Like I told my dh, maybe I just don't realize how dysfunctional my dd37 is and how severe her BPD really is?  She actually told me "I would rather have the boys than have the condo" - which really means she would rather be with the boys than go to work.  I think she actually thinks she can be a stay at home mother, this is so unrealistic.  Could this possibly be the way her brain works? 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[chooselove]

I feel for you.  We poured tens of thousands of dollars over the years into more "fresh starts" than I can remember for our uBPD daughter who is closing in on the age of 40.  I'm curious about one thing.  How good of a mother is she with her illness and many moves, chaos, irresponsibilities, etc?   Could it be that her children's father would be a better more stable home for your grandchildren?  Is your relationship with him one where you could have contact with the kids if with him?  Perhaps he was taking advantage of the situation of her acting homeless so that he could get those kids into a better environment?  I know this would be very difficult for your daughter to face... .but might it save the children from a similar fate? 

[suchsadness]

I think she is doing well with them and things are going smooth as they get a little older, but honestly I haven't seen her around them a lot in the last couple of years.  I know at one point when she was raging out of control we felt maybe it was best for the boys to only be with their father, I just know it would be VERY VERY hard on the youngest as he is a momma's boy.  The father is hot and cold with us - and denied us visits in the past, has treated me badly, and has issues himself. 

I need to ask you - has your helping with your DD ended or gotten better?  How did you handle the situation with helping her with fresh starts and then they didn't work out?  I really need to accept that this is probably our last attempt to help, especially if we have to end up evicting her... .the thought of that just makes me sick!

[lever.]

I do feel for you suchsadness, you have done all of this with the best intentions to help.

I haven't got any solutions to offer - I wonder about using SET "we do want to help and support you and realize that it is hard work to balance the children and a job but if regular rent isn't paid the corporation are going to evict you". What a dilemma-but you can't just keep throwing good money after bad.

I suspect it will cause some resentment from her sister too if you keep spending large amounts of money on "new starts" which don't work out.

its very hard too where grandchildren are involved.

I hope someone with more practical suggestions will be along to help-I really do feel for you over this.

We have wasted a lot of money trying to help over the years but my DH has started to take a strong line on it recently.

[pessim-optimist]

I remember your story suchsadness,

I see your good intentions and I see the pickle also. Looking at my own family and looking at the stories here on the board, the lengths we can go to as parents never cease to amaze me. We wouldn't do that for anyone else... .

Well, as my subject says... .I feel like I am in a big, big mess.  Thank heavens I am still taking anti-anxiety medication or it could be worse.

Sounds like you are keeping a positive outlook!

She doesn't know that we are sole owners of the corporation... .but it probably wouldn't matter anyway.

That's a good thing, that sort of takes you out of the pickle a bit... . 

I saw a paystub and she had only worked about 23 hours over a 2 week period.

Do you believe/could you verify that your dd has an option to work more hours? Also, she would be eligible for food-stamps (whether she has the boys or not, the amount would be different though) - that might help her financially.

I would "process" her according to the lease and the law. I'd send her an official letter with your corporation letter-head stating the requirements and/or deadlines, and go forward that way. One of our employees is chronically late with her rent and she has already gotten two eviction warnings, so far she was able to hang in by a thread... .

Do you think your dd37 can still get her act together on the $500? Has she made any attempts to pay at all?

AND - not only do we have this condo mess, but we had also told my other dd39 that we would do the same for her!  WOW what was I thinking?

Does your dd39 have similar problems? Do you think it would become a problem also, or do you have reason to believe that she would be responsible? If you think she could handle it, you might want to keep your promise if it is financially doable (if not, you could apologize to her and say that you realized you bit off more than you can chew)... .

I would probably try to sell the first condo and get a different place, though. The stigma of one sister being "kicked out" and the other living there would likely become too much for your dd37 and her r/s with you and her sister... .

I think she actually thinks she can be a stay at home mother, this is so unrealistic.  Could this possibly be the way her brain works? 

You know, it could be. My SD is a stay at home mother. However, her husband and her children do most everything, and she gets a free ride. If she ever got divorced, it would become a major problem, because she cannot get along with people and she cannot hold a job... .So, I really feel for your dd37. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that you are obligated to provide her with a rent-free place, either.

[suchsadness]

Thanks pessim-optimist for your reply. 

Do you believe/could you verify that your dd has an option to work more hours? Also, she would be eligible for food-stamps (whether she has the boys or not, the amount would be different though) - that might help her financially.

I don't know how I could verify her options for hours at work, it would have to come from her and honestly I don't believe anything she tells me.  I believe that how many hours she works or her options is something I have to "let go" and not have on my plate.  I wish I knew all the details and true facts - but I don't think that is happening.  As far as food stamps - she did have them and medical insurance.  Now she is telling me that she has lost both benefits because her ex reported her to the state for not paying child support - and according to her she lost her benefits because she is in arrears.  I'm not sure that is true or if this is truly the way it works in her state?

Does your dd39 have similar problems? Do you think it would become a problem also, or do you have reason to believe that she would be responsible?

DD39 is much more responsible and has a job that pays well, but also frequently runs into financial issues and asks for money.  My thought on her situation is that we could cut her rent in half by offering her a place (and yes we do have the means to do this but dh is NOT up for a second risk if the first doesn't work out) and hopefully this would help to lessen her financial stress.  She is a single mom - and also could use a lawyer to get some changes in her custody situation as well.  We are not up for paying for lawyers for either dd and have tried to advise them on getting a lawyer through the resources available to them (i.e. sliding fee for dd39 and free attorney for dd37).  They only want to talk about lawyers when they are in crisis and then insinuate that dh and I should pay for one for them... .WTH?  This is so messed up and I can recognize that as I type this.   

Do you think your dd37 can still get her act together on the $500? Has she made any attempts to pay at all?

I don't know if this is going to happen or not... .she has sent me 4 text messages in the last week saying that she is on her way to send "the reference number", meaning a number for a wire transfer.  She used a Walmart to Walmart transfer last time.  She sent me several different numbers - and I made several trips to Walmart before the money was actually there (we told her she only had to pay $200 for November and start full rent in December).  So I really can't say.  I think she is mad at me because she had forwarded me an email between her and her ex about going to court and I didn't respond because I hate ending up in the middle and fueling her drama.  Then she sent a message yesterday asking if I got the "reference number/email".  I said I got the message between you and ex, but no reference number.  She hasn't responded at all. 

[pessim-optimist]

Now she is telling me that she has lost both benefits because her ex reported her to the state for not paying child support - and according to her she lost her benefits because she is in arrears.  I'm not sure that is true or if this is truly the way it works in her state?

Hm, I don't know how that works, that might be a really hard situation for her.

Is her child-support based on her current income? One of our relatives was in law-enforcement, and he was living in his car in order to be able to keep up with the payments and to keep his job... .

(and yes we do have the means to do this but dh is NOT up for a second risk if the first doesn't work out)

That might be a really wise decision in the end... .On the other hand, when will you know that the first one HAS worked out (it could crumble any time even if it works for a while? If you aren't too keen on the idea, you can probably carefully back out of it.

Then she sent a message yesterday asking if I got the "reference number/email".  I said I got the message between you and ex, but no reference number.  She hasn't responded at all.

Well, you will see how that turns out... .

[qcarolr]

suchsadness   

We all do things out of love for our kids that blowup in our face. What we expect the outcome to be seems reasonable to us, forgetting that we have no control over the outcome. It is easy to slip into denial about the patterns we and our kids are in as we do the same pattern again.

As a grandparent I get how much you want your DD to be a good mom to her kids. It is deeply frustrating to be in the middle of this paradox of needs as a mom vs. grandma. It seems what we desire to help our grown child with may not be in the best interest of the  grandchild. I am the ground up meat of this sandwich. My gd has to come first and always -- I know this. And I am still so sad and frustrated and still trying to pull my DD28 up to a more self-sufficient level so she can at least be a 'special friend' with gd9. Gd choosing to go NC with her mom until just a few weeks ago seems to have made an impression on DD. We will see how it goes.

Gd's response to her mom's issues, now that she is able to express them clearly, has taken me a bit out of the middle. And also DD blames me less. Things are going well with DD at our house the past few days, with gd's approval.

Can you find ways to cement our r/s with your grandsons while stepping out of trying to help your DD do the work needed to keep her sons? You may have some grandparent visitation rights that you can protect independently from your r/s with your DD. It is hard to let our struggling kids sink or swim, day to day, without us there to hold their head above water. Hard, hard, hard.

Keeping you in my thoughts.

qcr

[chooselove]

Sorry I'm late in getting back here, suchsadness.  You asked me if our helping with our DD ended or gotten better and how did we handle the situation with helping her with fresh starts when they didn't work out.

My answer to that is these days we no longer help with money. We can't afford to.  If I had money to spare it would be much harder to say no because her needs do trigger that part of me that wants to make her life easier and money seems to be the only thing I can give that matters to her.  I do remember that when I said no in the past at times I could afford to give it I was plagued with guilt and feeling selfish. She would point out how good my life was and that she wasn't as lucky as me.  I suppose that's all part of what one therapist called my co-dependence and enmeshment.    Sometimes I still get caught up in doing something for her that she should do for herself... .doesn't cost me money but it takes up time and gets her out of her own responsibilities. I find it hard to say no mostly because it doesn't seem 

When the previous fresh starts did not pan out, we just chalked it up to another try and told ourselves we really need to stop doing this and we would promise ourselves this would be the last.  But the next time rolled around with new promises of how it would be different this time and it would start eating at me to want to help again.  She just seemed so sad and stuck and so it was us to the rescue.  I can't say that I have any regrets because looking back I can see where there were times if we did not help her she could have been in grave danger for her life and well being and I didn't want to live with that possibility.

Another aspect of this helping, though, is that while the need is there, we matter very much to her and she is extremely grateful in the moment of receiving the help. But it soon fades and by the time she needs help again, the previous helps are quite trivialized and it's as if they never happened.

Also, all the helps over the years did not add up to a stronger bond between us.  Right now she is 99% NC with us and has us painted black.  This follows a sad few years of us trying to negotiate living together through a time when she wanted to come home to start again.  It proved too difficult with all the tension, messes, attempts at boundaries, rages and the many broken promises and misinterpretations.   She moved out with the opinion that we are abusive and horrible people and that she wants us out of her life.  I did not have the benefit of this website or a better understanding of what was happening and made things worse just trying to do the right thing and often choosing wrongly without knowing it. I made some mistakes, nothing I would consider unforgivable but since she doesn't seem to have a memory of her part in our interactions, all she refers to are the things she deems that I did wrong "for no reason at all other than to get off on messing up her life."

These days when I find myself looking back with wishing things had been different and feeling the sadness of losing her, I make an effort to change my thoughts to ones of trust and peace that God has this handled and realize that all the things I have tried to manage and control on her behalf have not brought us closer to a healed relationship and a joyful fulfilling life for her.  She appears to be doing better than before but is still struggling with daily indecision about where to go and what to do, vs just staying put, growing roots and giving time for her life to blossom.  I sense she is wanting to run back to her previous town, previous roommate (that never worked out) and the perpetual "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" that keeps her destabilized.

Your situation is so magnified with a grandchild.  My advice to you would be to not tell yourselves this is the last time you will help her as that will just torture you and also you'll feel like a failure when you are compelled to help her again.  Try to make your best decision in the "now" and tell yourself that you will continue to do just that.  You cannot help the consequences of her choices. With me, I finally just "knew" when I had to stop helping financially and I didn't need to make it into a promise to myself like before.   The moment arrived with peace.   I miss her very much but I'm able to carry it and not drop into a puddle of tears and heartache.  I did not foresee that I could one day do that before and I'm very grateful for the mercy of being able to be happy and enjoy many aspects of life with this important relationship still very much broken.

I haven't read the other postings herein. No doubt they are filled with much wisdom and insight. I've been too busy at present but wanted to come back to answer your question. 

I'm not a Catholic (or dogmatic religious person) but I am reminded right now of the Serenity Prayer. I do believe in a Creator overseeing us in the big picture because we humans simply are too full of errors, each and every one of us, to be perfect in our solutions!  I surrender!

God, give us grace to accept with serenity

the things that cannot be changed,

Courage to change the things

which should be changed,

and the Wisdom to distinguish

the one from the other.

Living one day at a time,

Enjoying one moment at a time,

Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace,

Taking, as Jesus did,

This sinful world as it is,

Not as I would have it,

Trusting that You will make all things right,

If I surrender to Your will,

So that I may be reasonably happy in this life,

And supremely happy with You forever in the next.

[chooselove]

sorry I didn't finish my sentence at the end of paragraph 2.  I think I was going to say something along the lines of how helping her by doing things for her doesn't seem as bad as paying her way and it gives me a small way to stay connected. But in the end I'm still being used in ways that do not truly build our relationship. Once the need is fulfilled she is pretty much done with me again.

[qcarolr]

chooselove - thanks for sharing this part of your story here. A pathway to peace in the midst of hardship. The second part of the serenity prayer is so often left out, and it helps me so.

qcr

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[chooselove]

You're welcome, qcr.  I find the 2nd half very helpful, too, and a serious reminder for myself as I falter.

[suchsadness]

Chooselove, thank you so much for your reply.  I have read it over several times and actually printed it out as well.  I feel like I need to just keep reading it over and over, and can relate totally in so many ways. 

her needs do trigger that part of me that wants to make her life easier and money seems to be the only thing I can give that matters to her.  I do remember that when I said no in the past at times I could afford to give it I was plagued with guilt and feeling selfish. She would point out how good my life was and that she wasn't as lucky as me.  I suppose that's all part of what one therapist called my co-dependence and enmeshment.    Sometimes I still get caught up in doing something for her that she should do for herself... .doesn't cost me money but it takes up time and gets her out of her own responsibilities.  [/i]

This is exactly how I feel.  We are in a place where we can financially help - but I/we end up doing things for her she should be doing for herself.  I honestly thought that this time I would be helping her help herself... .but this is NOT what is happening, and I think she truly believes that she is entitled and she doesn't need to put effort into keeping it going.  I saw that she had purchased barstools, a metal shelving unit, nurf guns, and who knows what else verses paying rent to keep the roof over her head.  Now she is needing a lawyer, and this is coming before the rent... .I am in the middle of it all between a rock and hard spot between my dd and dh.  I think because I know in my heart that we could help financially, that is the hardest part and like you said I am plagued with feelings of guilt and selfishness.  My poor dh is so realistic and logical, and this just makes no sense to him.  I have to believe that in part it is because he is a step father and doesn't have the emotional ties that a mother would... .but on the other hand I get that just because I'm her mother, I'm not responsible for her choices for the rest of my life.

Another aspect of this helping, though, is that while the need is there, we matter very much to her and she is extremely grateful in the moment of receiving the help. But it soon fades and by the time she needs help again, the previous helps are quite trivialized and it's as if they never happened.

[/i]

Again - this is exactly how it goes with us, and the helping is never enough and never ends.  I love the Serenity Prayer and it has helped me through many trials over the years... .thank you so much for including that in your post.  Your post has helped me feel more peaceful about my/our situation.  I am happy to hear that you have accepted your situation with your own dd and have been able to find happiness in your life.  This acceptance is so important in finding peace. 

I make an effort to change my thoughts to ones of trust and peace that God has this handled and realize that all the things I have tried to manage and control on her behalf have not brought us closer to a healed relationship and a joyful fulfilling life for her. 

[/i]

I pray that I can also change my thoughts to accept that "God has this handled", and let go of trying to manage her life, especially those things that she should be doing for herself.

Once again, thank you chooselove - wishing you and all a happy holiday season.   

Suchsadness