talking with a pwBPD traits about validation and invalidation

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So... my wife brought this up this morning... .after a bit of a discussion/argument/diatribe/dysregulation.  

It was a bit different than I have seen before... wasn't really abusive... so I stuck around for the show... and tried some tools.

Was trying to figure out "what she was really saying".

I think she is worried about oldest daughter growing up... .she has boyfriend... about a year or so left at home.

Anyway... .she claimed that the reason she got so upset is that I "made" her feel like her thoughts "were not valid" (exactly her words.  Then she talked about how I thought what she was saying was wrong... .she didn't know what she was talking about  blah blah blah... )

Then she came back to the "valid" thing

I assured her that I did not want to "invalidate" her feelings... that they were valid... .and then I twisted it for "me" and said

"You know how you just said it upset you didn't think I thought your thoughts were valid... that is exactly how I feel when you say You think xyz or you feel xyz about a certain subject and I don't feel that way.  It is invalidating to me to have you claim I think one thing... .when I think another."

This was impactful... .she squirmed a bit and then only wanted to talk about me invalidating her.  She said it was the question about what my daughter said that was invalidating (long story... she was claiming what my daughter said and "thought".  

I asked "Help me understand how it is invalidating for me to ask "When did ff daughter say that (what I think I asked) or what did ff daughter say (what I may have said)... .and she launched on a diatribe about everything but answering that question.

During a break in the diatribe I asked her to stick to one subject... .answer that question first... .lets sort that out... .and she said "she was getting to that... "  More blah blah blah... no answer.

There were a couple small timeouts in here... .that we did successfully (this is big news in and of itself).

Anyway... there is a newer thing we are talking about in MC where we hand the other person a piece of paper and they are supposed to go consider that question... and give a written response... to that question.

So... I gave her the paper... .that part went ok.  below is what I handed her

What I would like an answer to.

I do not want to invalidate you.  In order to better understand how I invalidated you this morning I would like to understand how asking the question “When did ff daughter say that (what I think I asked) or “did ff daughter say that?”  (what I may have asked) invalidated you.

I love you... and want to be able to talk to you without doing this to you…


So... .I will be very interested in the answer.

Anyone out there successfully make stuff like this better?  To me it seems like she is upset at what people are thinking... .or "meaning".

Anyone see discussions with their pwBPD about validation and invalidation help things... ?

[formflier]

So... my wife brought this up this morning... .after a bit of a discussion/argument/diatribe/dysregulation.  

It was a bit different than I have seen before... wasn't really abusive... so I stuck around for the show... and tried some tools.

Was trying to figure out "what she was really saying".

I think she is worried about oldest daughter growing up... .she has boyfriend... about a year or so left at home.

Anyway... .she claimed that the reason she got so upset is that I "made" her feel like her thoughts "were not valid" (exactly her words.  Then she talked about how I thought what she was saying was wrong... .she didn't know what she was talking about  blah blah blah... )

Then she came back to the "valid" thing

I assured her that I did not want to "invalidate" her feelings... that they were valid... .and then I twisted it for "me" and said

"You know how you just said it upset you didn't think I thought your thoughts were valid... that is exactly how I feel when you say You think xyz or you feel xyz about a certain subject and I don't feel that way.  It is invalidating to me to have you claim I think one thing... .when I think another."

This was impactful... .she squirmed a bit and then only wanted to talk about me invalidating her.  She said it was the question about what my daughter said that was invalidating (long story... she was claiming what my daughter said and "thought".  

I asked "Help me understand how it is invalidating for me to ask "When did ff daughter say that (what I think I asked) or what did ff daughter say (what I may have said)... .and she launched on a diatribe about everything but answering that question.

During a break in the diatribe I asked her to stick to one subject... .answer that question first... .lets sort that out... .and she said "she was getting to that... "  More blah blah blah... no answer.

There were a couple small timeouts in here... .that we did successfully (this is big news in and of itself).

Anyway... there is a newer thing we are talking about in MC where we hand the other person a piece of paper and they are supposed to go consider that question... and give a written response... to that question.

So... I gave her the paper... .that part went ok.  below is what I handed her

What I would like an answer to.

I do not want to invalidate you.  In order to better understand how I invalidated you this morning I would like to understand how asking the question “When did ff daughter say that (what I think I asked) or “did ff daughter say that?”  (what I may have asked) invalidated you.

I love you... and want to be able to talk to you without doing this to you…


So... .I will be very interested in the answer.

Anyone out there successfully make stuff like this better?  To me it seems like she is upset at what people are thinking... .or "meaning".

Anyone see discussions with their pwBPD about validation and invalidation help things... ?

[maxsterling]

Havent quite gotten to that point.  I have found that conversations about subjects such as this go smoother when we are not the subjects (the ones hurt).  I can have these conversations with her if the subjects are her and someone else or me and someone else.  So we can talk about how she felt invalidated by someone else, or how I felt invalidated by someone else.  If I were to want to talk about how I felt invalidated by her, I can guarantee she would get defensive.  Yes, the message may sink in, but not before I have to listen to an earful about how horrible I am.  Some day I think we will chip away at these issues, but I think the timing is not right in my r/s.  I think she needs a whole lot more validation about the r/s in general before we can get to that point.

[formflier]

 

Max,

I understand what you mean about timing not being right.  Or not being sure if timing is right. 


I figured... .since she mentioned it... I would push ahead... full steam. 

Of course... most likely she is not going to be able to explain it to me since she most likely doesn't understand herself.

On the one hand she will say... .with a great deal of frustration... .that she knows she can't know what other people are thinking and shouldn't talk about that... .and then say... why can't I just hush and listen.

If I hush and listen... ."It's like talking to a brick wall... ." is what she will usually say... .

The ability to say she shouldn't do something... .and acknowledge she is doing it... .and claim it is a "sideshow" that I shouldn't pay attention to... .is truly baffling.

[waverider]

I found when actually trying to teach her to use tools and methods such as validation she takes them on board and starts trying to use a twisted version to trip me up. So we end up with her looking for reasons why something is invalidating... we go round and round with technical arguments as to whether something can be seen invalidating or not.

It goes from being a subtle communication tool to the main subject of debate.

I find it easier to let her mirror my behavior rather than trying to teach her something different, which is taken as controlling criticism.

I guess whatever works for you is best, but try not get too bogged down in logical discussions over the illogical.

If someone is telling you they feel invalidated, trying to get them to explain why they feel so is in itself invalidating, they feel it and the feelings are real whether the reason is understandable or not. You may be asking for help in understanding the reason, but they hear it as you not believing they are right to feel that way. Often they may not know why they they feel so, as their emotions dont have logical explanation.; The pressure to explain the unexplainable adds further stress.

If it starts to spiral I guess the best thing is not to push for an answer or closure, just that it is the way they feel and leave it at that.

[formflier]

 

She definitely likes the "technical debate."

I asked a question... .I was honestly asking... because I had huge information gaps.

When she talks about the conversation... .she describes it as what I "said" or "did"... .if I am not careful... .the debate gets shifted to debating English language rather than whatever  was the original question.  And of course... .most of the time I never get the question answered... .

What I think I will get some mileage of... .is that now we have a firm connection to the bad feelings that she feels... when she feels that she was invalidated... .   to what I feel like when she tells me my thoughts.

She seemed truly apologetic for this. 

I have no illusions that she will never tell me my thoughts again... but hopefully we can tamp down the frequency... .

[waverider]

Main thing is you have flagged a basic problem with communication. Even if she goes on to defensive technical debates about it, at least the seed is planted. Resolving individual issues is not that important, at least there is a growing awareness of the problem so it could ease future issues.

Dont allow it to become a defensive tool by forcing the thought too much. Allow it to be infused slowly.

Its like many of the tools, it just oils the wheels of communication, regular small drops are more effective than flooding it.

[Grey Kitty]

Was trying to figure out "what she was really saying".

I think she is worried about oldest daughter growing up... .she has boyfriend... about a year or so left at home.

Anyway... .she claimed that the reason she got so upset is that I "made" her feel like her thoughts "were not valid" (exactly her words.  Then she talked about how I thought what she was saying was wrong... .she didn't know what she was talking about  blah blah blah... )

You know how you just said it upset you didn't think I thought your thoughts were valid... that is exactly how I feel when you say You think xyz or you feel xyz about a certain subject and I don't feel that way.  It is invalidating to me to have you claim I think one thing... .when I think another.

I'd like to turn back to validation and invalidation.

Being concerned about her thoughts and feelings is good. Expressing this interest is validating.

Guessing as to what they are is dangerous. If you are RIGHT, it is validating. If you are WRONG, it is invalidating. In addition, if you are actually right... .but she isn't aware, because those feelings are below the surface, it is INCREDIBLY INVALIDATING!

I'd suggest refining your own tools in this area.

[formflier]

 

I can see it... .

That I should express more general interest... .and ask some questions about her feelings... .and listen... .

I tend to ask direct questions... .maybe instead of  "when did ff daughter say xyz... ." (very direct) I could asked (can you tell me more about your conversation with ff daughter... .)  maybe add some agreement that the situation is concerning at the end.

That could give her more of an out to say it was not a conversation... .but her thinking about a situation...

Thoughts?

[Grey Kitty]

My take (and partially because this *IS* one of my personal trigger issues) is that you are getting onto shaky ground when you start to guess what she is feeling. A 'wrong' guess is very expensive!

It is fantastic to validate her deeper concerns beyond her specific words... .when you get it right. I'd say that the feelings are pretty easy to find, but anything around the source of those feelings is much riskier.

It is also very powerful if you can express interest in what she's thinking/feeling and draw it out of her. And a lot safer.