"You know I've never needed anyone"

[ADecadeLost]

I'm in a strange place these days.  Somewhere between leaving and moving on.  Reflecting on the past and preparing myself for whatever the future holds.  There's been a lot of internal reflection, and I believe I've made progress addressing those things within me that needed, and still need to be, addressed.  Yet, for all my progress, the core value that has defined me since my youth holds strong.  And as I was leaving my parents Christmas day, that fact struck me hard.

The car packed, goodbyes said, my mother approached me and gave me a hug.  Worrying as mothers do when their children are going through things they cannot fix, she whispered: "You know I am here if you ever need anything."  Without conscious thought, I smiled, hugged her back, and simply said: "You know I've never needed anyone."

I could feel the words cut through her as I said them, and regret the pain I know it caused her.  She had no more control over the factors that led to this personality quirk than I did.  It was solely bad luck/bad timing that shaped us all.  She was not responsible for my early memory retention (other than heredity I suppose).  Nor was she responsible for SIDs taking my infant brother at age 2.  Her reaction to the loss of a child, no matter how well she thought she hid it, is at fault, but no one in their right mind could lose a child without suffering an emotional response.

We each have carry our own burden from the event.  Her's is three sons.  An eldest who decided at a young age that he would not be a burden to his grieving mother.  A second born that was granted only months on this earth.  And a third, so coddled due to her paranoia of losing another, that to this day is a narcissistic "mama's boy."  Mine is two-fold.  That belief that to need the support of others is to be a burden, and an underlying co-dependency stemming from my inability to protect her from a sadness neither of us could control.

And while I truly believe I am making steps to correct the latter (only took a decade with a dBPD to realize it needed addressing), I am not sure I will ever be able to address, or even want to address, the prior.  It has been my strength in times of hardship.  The core value that allows me to handle situations where those around me buckle.  Something that has allowed me to become a leader at points where one was needed.  Something that combined with a confidence that has built with age, has allowed me professional success. 

Yet in moments like the one with my mother on Christmas, I can see that is a double-edged sword.  And I wonder what other harm it will cause.

[livednlearned]

How did you feel when you said, "You know I've never needed anyone." It sounds like you immediately felt how your mother felt (and from what you wrote, it sounds like this is perhaps the role you decided to assume with her in life?). But how did you feel?

I have a very different story than yours, but I spent my entire adult life pretty much living by that same sentence.

My experience is that not needing anyone is a lie. I told myself this lie because it was the safest choice, and it served me well in all ways except my most intimate relationships. It prevented me from being vulnerable, and without vulnerability, I became cut off from painful and negative feelings. If you shut off painful feelings, you shut off many feelings, and you stop using your heart to make sense of the world. I tolerated abuse and pain in my own home, against my own body, because I didn't fully feel what was happening, and I got something out of being the strong one who didn't need anyone to help me. I became isolated, which I think is what happens when you don't need anyone.

The strangest thing in my recovery is that admitting I needed others brought me to my knees in the most unbelievable emotional pain I've ever felt. I've been scared and anxious and angry and depressed and bewildered and other negative feelings. But letting myself let others love and care for me, in essence admitting that I was not the all-powerful all strong totally self sufficient LnL is what broke me open. I was so unmoored by the experience, it was like big pieces of "me" calved off like a glacier. A psychiatrist I was seeing told me that it was the cracking of my egoic self, the persona we adopt in childhood to help us survive, and one that often becomes unnecessary when we outgrow our childhood experiences.

A really great book to read about this is Daring Greatly by Brene Brown. You can also see some of the TED talks about vulnerability if you want to Google her work. It will make you think about vulnerability and courage/weakness in entirely different ways, and might help unlock some of the stuff you have going on around the "I don't need anyone" script.

It is a strange place to be in, but you're at a fascinating part of the recovering process.  

[vortex of confusion]

This is very thought provoking as I have found myself thinking and feeling that I don't need anyone. For me, I feel like it is a chicken and egg question. Which came first? Did I shut myself off because I didn't need anyone or did I shut myself off as a result of people letting me down and not being there for me when I needed them most?

My motto is "I'll figure it out, I always do." I've adopted that attitude because I have reached out to my husband and others only to be brushed off. There have been times when I have reached out to my husband in a moment of need only to have him shun me. After dealing with that so long, it was easier to convince myself that I don't need anybody and that I can figure everything out for myself. The truth is that I do want and need others but I can't force them to be there for me and I don't want to be a bother.

Most recently, a good female friend has stopped answering my calls or my messages. She has disappeared like a fart in the wind. To stave off feeling hurt, I seem to have adopted the attitude, "Oh well, I didn't need her anyway."

I am trying to figure out if people disappear on me because I push them away or if there is something wrong with me. Or, could it be that I tend to gravitate towards people that are great friends as long as they need something but when I need something they are nowhere to be found. It is difficult for me to sort it out. I simultaneously want and need people but tell myself that I don't so that I don't get disappointed when people are not there for me.

[Popcorn71]

This is very thought provoking as I have found myself thinking and feeling that I don't need anyone. For me, I feel like it is a chicken and egg question. Which came first? Did I shut myself off because I didn't need anyone or did I shut myself off as a result of people letting me down and not being there for me when I needed them most?

My motto is "I'll figure it out, I always do." I've adopted that attitude because I have reached out to my husband and others only to be brushed off. There have been times when I have reached out to my husband in a moment of need only to have him shun me. After dealing with that so long, it was easier to convince myself that I don't need anybody and that I can figure everything out for myself. The truth is that I do want and need others but I can't force them to be there for me and I don't want to be a bother.

Most recently, a good female friend has stopped answering my calls or my messages. She has disappeared like a fart in the wind. To stave off feeling hurt, I seem to have adopted the attitude, "Oh well, I didn't need her anyway."

I am trying to figure out if people disappear on me because I push them away or if there is something wrong with me. Or, could it be that I tend to gravitate towards people that are great friends as long as they need something but when I need something they are nowhere to be found. It is difficult for me to sort it out. I simultaneously want and need people but tell myself that I don't so that I don't get disappointed when people are not there for me.

You have summed up my thoughts exactly.  Ever since I left home at the age of 16 years I have insisted that I don't need anyone.  I appreciate help when it is given but I expect to have to cope alone.  I think this comes from a combination of being very capable and independent and also having been let down by so many people.  Apart from my immediate family, there are very few friends who have been there for me when I needed them.

I used to tell my xBPDh that I didn't need him.  I wanted him but but would be fine without him.  He didn't seem to like that and I am certain that he wants to be 'needed' rather than loved.  I think this has a lot to do with his choice of replacement.

Do you think this independence and lack of need for them, drives them away?

[vortex of confusion]

You have summed up my thoughts exactly.  Ever since I left home at the age of 16 years I have insisted that I don't need anyone.  I appreciate help when it is given but I expect to have to cope alone.  I think this comes from a combination of being very capable and independent and also having been let down by so many people.  Apart from my immediate family, there are very few friends who have been there for me when I needed them.

I used to tell my xBPDh that I didn't need him.  I wanted him but but would be fine without him.  He didn't seem to like that and I am certain that he wants to be 'needed' rather than loved.  I think this has a lot to do with his choice of replacement.

Do you think this independence and lack of need for them, drives them away?

From my perspective, I don't think my lack of need for my husband drives him away. When I have needed him, he hasn't been there. If I weren't able to cope with things on my own, I never would have made it almost 17 years with my husband. I think the strength and independence attracts needy people. I can give and give and give without ever really being upset if I don't receive anything in return. That sets up a perfect situation for codependency and one sided relationships.

In all honesty, I am thinking about the term independence. Is there really any independence in a relationship with a person with BPD? I ask that because I have often thought that I had more freedom and independence as a child. Yes, I can make all of the decisions and run the household but I don't have true privacy. I don't have the ability to go out and do stuff without being questioned extensively. It feels like everything I do is under a microscope. That is NOT independence. That is something else entirely.

How many people have been in relationships with a person with BPD or BPD traits and have reported that the other person was incapable of meeting their needs? In my experience, the only way to survive that kind of relationship is to have no needs and make no demands.

[Pingo]

How many people have been in relationships with a person with BPD or BPD traits and have reported that the other person was incapable of meeting their needs? In my experience, the only way to survive that kind of relationship is to have no needs and make no demands.

That's how I survived my childhood.  And I did the same in my marriage.  And I do the same with everyone.  I need something done, I do it myself.  I am actually uncomfortable allowing people to help me.  I resist it.  I would rather keep myself 'safe' by not allowing anyone to see me as needy or weak. 

I can echo everything that livednlearned said above, I have fought vulnerability all my life.  I had to as a child in order to survive.  I was shamed by my family and bullied by my peers.  In my 6 mths since my BU with my uBPDexh I have allowed myself to open up my weakness and show my vulnerability for the first time ever!  I actually sought out a new T bc I wasn't comfortable enough with the first and was determined I was going to open up and expose myself.  And I have.  It has been brutally difficult and scary.  So far the only ones to see this side of me have been my best friends, my T and my kids.  And I even lost one best friend bc she couldn't handle my honesty.  But what a relief to not have to carry around that burden anymore.

[Popcorn71]

Is there really any independence in a relationship with a person with BPD? I ask that because I have often thought that I had more freedom and independence as a child. Yes, I can make all of the decisions and run the household but I don't have true privacy. I don't have the ability to go out and do stuff without being questioned extensively. It feels like everything I do is under a microscope. That is NOT independence. That is something else entirely.

How many people have been in relationships with a person with BPD or BPD traits and have reported that the other person was incapable of meeting their needs? In my experience, the only way to survive that kind of relationship is to have no needs and make no demands.

You make a good point there.  My marriage survived only as long as I had no needs and made no demands.  That also extended to the needs and demands of my children.  When they were young they were not a problem.  However, as they became older they became more demanding and independent and this caused problems for my xBPDh.  I guess it was easier for him to leave and start again rather than try to give as well as take.

These relationships are certainly very one-sided.

[vortex of confusion]

You make a good point there.  My marriage survived only as long as I had no needs and made no demands.  That also extended to the needs and demands of my children.  When they were young they were not a problem.  However, as they became older they became more demanding and independent and this caused problems for my xBPDh.  I guess it was easier for him to leave and start again rather than try to give as well as take.

These relationships are certainly very one-sided.

And that perpetuates the idea that I don't need anyone. I have to find ways to deal with whatever situation arises because I know that I cannot depend on him. Even the kids know that they cannot rely on him so they come to me for everything.

I wish my husband would leave but he won't for a whole host of reasons. He is putting forth some effort but it isn't good enough in my opinion. And, I am hesitant to push too hard because I realize that I do need help because I have four kids. So, I am caught between this world of not needing anybody while knowing that I really do need some kind of help. I realize that I am not super woman even though I really want to be. If I was super woman, then I wouldn't need anybody and I could do everything by myself moving forward.

[ADecadeLost]

How did you feel when you said, "You know I've never needed anyone." It sounds like you immediately felt how your mother felt (and from what you wrote, it sounds like this is perhaps the role you decided to assume with her in life?). But how did you feel?

I honestly didn't feel much of anything.  As it's a part of me, I feel no pain from it personally.  And as I mentioned, have found it advantageous professionally.

A psychiatrist I was seeing told me that it was the cracking of my egoic self, the persona we adopt in childhood to help us survive, and one that often becomes unnecessary when we outgrow our childhood experiences.

I understand the concept, but the strange thing is that my entire childhood trauma was defined by a singular event at age two.  The rest of my 18 years included two parents who put their children's happiness and success above all else.  We were given unconditional love, supported in whatever ventures we chose to pursue, and always provided with what we needed.  I had close friends, excelled in school, and developed a love for sports and the outdoors.  Yet, I really never felt that I needed anyone.  I had people willing to offer their unconditional support all around me, but just didn't need it.

I'll be sure to look for Brown's book as well.  Thank you.

ADL

[ADecadeLost]

I am trying to figure out if people disappear on me because I push them away or if there is something wrong with me. Or, could it be that I tend to gravitate towards people that are great friends as long as they need something but when I need something they are nowhere to be found.

I'm truly sorry to hear this.  I've tended to limit my friends over the years (maybe 3 or 4 good ones everywhere I've lived), but those who I have kept have always been the type that would take a bullet for me (dealing with my BPDex was equivalent to that for a few of them).  Sadly, I've failed so many of them over the years.  Funny thing is, even those I've failed time and again (2 or 3 specifically come to mind) would answer my call this moment if I dialed their number.  I just can't bring myself to do it until my ex is completely out of my life (ie. divorce finalized).  They deserve better than what I've become with her, and I don't feel confident I can reciprocate what they've tried to be for me until my mind is fully cleared of her.

[going places]

I am trying to figure out if people disappear on me because I push them away or if there is something wrong with me. Or, could it be that I tend to gravitate towards people that are great friends as long as they need something but when I need something they are nowhere to be found. It is difficult for me to sort it out. I simultaneously want and need people but tell myself that I don't so that I don't get disappointed when people are not there for me.

Ditto.

For myself, looking back, logically and realistically, the 'friends' I have had in my life were there because I had something they wanted: to be entertained, to be fed and entertained, because my ex was the coach and they wanted their kid on the team, etc.

I have a couple of friends that are for real, friends.

I honestly think I attracted those kinds of moochers.

Moochers can sense when someone is a 'giving, boundaryless mess'.

Then they latch on like leaches and suck you dry.

Do you think this independence and lack of need for them, drives them away?

No, I think they just look for a bigger better deal once you stop allowing them to use you.

OR they just find a bigger, better deal and drop you in the grease.

My marriage survived only as long as I had no needs and made no demands.  That also extended to the needs and demands of my children.  When they were young they were not a problem.  However, as they became older they became more demanding and independent and this caused problems for my xBPDh.  I guess it was easier for him to leave and start again rather than try to give as well as take.

These relationships are certainly very one-sided.

Ditto.

Not only did I make no demands, I did not express my feelings, I did everything he wanted, the way he wanted it done.

I did not rock the boat. And when something else sent him over the edge, I fussed and scurried to keep things calm... .

I protected my kids as much as I could... .teaching them day in and day out right from wrong, so no matter WHAT they were seeing, they knew right from wrong.

It was very very very one sided. Very.

[Popcorn71]

One of the things that made me realise how I had done everything to suit him, was when we split up I was talking to a neighbour who I had thought was friendly with my ex.  However, he didn't speak highly of my ex and said to me that 'he always did like everything his own way and was very highly strung'.  Why didn't I see it as plainly as other people did?

[livednlearned]

How did you feel when you said, "You know I've never needed anyone." It sounds like you immediately felt how your mother felt (and from what you wrote, it sounds like this is perhaps the role you decided to assume with her in life?). But how did you feel?

I honestly didn't feel much of anything.  As it's a part of me, I feel no pain from it personally.  And as I mentioned, have found it advantageous professionally.

A psychiatrist I was seeing told me that it was the cracking of my egoic self, the persona we adopt in childhood to help us survive, and one that often becomes unnecessary when we outgrow our childhood experiences.

I understand the concept, but the strange thing is that my entire childhood trauma was defined by a singular event at age two.  The rest of my 18 years included two parents who put their children's happiness and success above all else.  We were given unconditional love, supported in whatever ventures we chose to pursue, and always provided with what we needed.  I had close friends, excelled in school, and developed a love for sports and the outdoors.  Yet, I really never felt that I needed anyone.  I had people willing to offer their unconditional support all around me, but just didn't need it.

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean that the 18 years of good experiences means the one traumatic event had little to no effect?

[ADecadeLost]

LnL - Sorry for the delayed response.  Apparently, I gained access to this subforum before I should have had access (<50 posts) and then lost it again.

To clarify what I meant, I was mainly just expressing my amazement at a singular events power over the development of my personality quirks.  Not that the rest of the years should have served to correct the damage, but simply that so much damage can be done by such a singular event.