New Years Party

[jellibeans]

How many of you are trying to have a Happy New Year? My dd17 wants to go hang at a friends house. I don't know this friend but it is close by. She says I can drug test her when she comes home which is a good thing but that doesn't test drinking. Not sure what to do. She is out right now but we will have to talk when she gets home. New Years is kind of a tough holiday... .I really feel there will probably be drinking and drugs at this party. Another thing is I don't want to be driving around late to get her either as the weather is not suppose to be good tonight.

I am thinking of letting her go out for a short time but picking her up at 10:30. I know she will not be happy. And of course all I hear from her is that she is 17 and should be able to stay out late. Looking for some feedback... .anyone else wondering what to do tonight?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

Hello jellibeans,

It is getting late as I am reading this (depending on where you live)... .How have you resolved your dilemma?

I personally would do what I thought was wise, reasonable and even convenient on a night with bad weather (whether it meant letting her go for a bit or not even letting her go at all).

[jellibeans]

Well the night took a turn. She decided to go to her other friend house and sleepover. Just hangout and watch movies. Sounded good. Then my husband noticed the wine he had put aside for the night was missing. We have a pretty strict rule at our home. We lock up all booze. We have a lock on our beer fridge in the garage so I was not very happy he decided to leave a bottle out. Well called my dd to ask if she had took it and she said no. My husband then searched her room and found other things like cigarette butts and a condom. He decided to go pick her up and bring her home. After she got here he wanted to sit down and talk. She finally admitted she took the wine and had drank it the night before. I was happy enough to ground her and leave it at that but my H wasn't happy with that. He has a way of taking a bad situation and making it worse. He ended up telling her he wished he had a normal kid and that hurt dd very much and we both left the room. She has been crying and telling me she is suicidal.

Just another happy New Years eve here 

[Dibdob59]

I am truly sorry an already difficult situation was made worse by an unguarded and thoughtless remark from your H.  Things are often said in the heat of the moment through frustration that are less than helpful.  Those with BPD would suffer at being told they are not normal but for our BPD children it is the worst kind of put down.

I hope you can find a way to communicate with your D and share your love for her while reinforcing with her your need to be able to trust her and apply consequences when that trust is broken. Does she understand that she let you down by taking and drinking the wine?

It is a narrow tightrope we walk daily and I truly feel for you.   Communication is so difficult I find. It is as if one sentence is coming from my mouth but my BPD hears something else entirely.

Dibdob

[jellibeans]

Well my husband was woken up by our alarm peeped meaning someone opened a door. She has left the house and has shut off her phone. Things just get better. Now to decide what to do. 

[jellibeans]

UPDATE: my dd returned home around 6 this morning. We talked and she told me she needed help. That her drug and alcohol problem was out of hand. She would not tell me what drugs she was taking because she thought it would break my heart. This worries me a great deal. She wants to go to rehab so I am looking for a program and trying to get a hold of her T to discuss further. She sneaks out of the house every night she tells me whish is a bit hard to believe but anything is possible. There is always a bit of turth to her stories. I am very sad today and a bit lost on how to help my dd. I have alot of anger toward my H who I feel had a great deal to do with this whole breakdown. Any advise would be welcomed. I am in Texas and I am looking here for programs. Origins in South Padre seems like a good program but I am not sure she needs that level of care. I am trying not to think about her school and how this will impact her graduating but the thought does enter my head and I know that is not something I should be focusing on right now.

[pessim-optimist]

Hello jellibeans, I am truly sorry last night took such a bad turn.

While I agree that it was unfortunate of your husband to leave the bottle of wine out and then to say that he wished he had a normal kid, there is also the fact that you found the cigarette butts and a condom in your dd's room which had nothing to do with last night... .

What do you make of that? What do you make of your dd's telling you she is in serious trouble? Do you see the hallmarks, do you feel in your gut that that's what's happening? Have you seen any of the signs in the last month or so?

At the risk that I might sound invalidating, and maybe even callous I also want to paint a different possibility - is it possible that your dd is saying these things to get out of the immediate trouble of having been caught and having to face the consequences she would have to if she wasn't suicidal and out of control with drugs and alcohol? This is a far-fetched possibility, not a probability, and I just wanted to put it out there. If you feel like that is off, please disregard that.

In either case, you must be really worried, and if I were in your position, I would probably be doing what you are doing (looking for a place for her).

I think that I would also make an effort to be kind and validating yet I would go out of my way to not be coddling or excusing her braking of the rules. I would try to keep the long-term goal in sight and guide my immediate actions by that.

[jellibeans]

pessim

yes I am also thinking along those lines too so I don't think it is far fetched. It is her pattern too. The more trouble she is in the more she wants to run away and avoid the consequences. Back in June when I found her smoking pot in her room she then confused she was suicidal and wanted to be taken to the P hospital. Once she was there after a day or so she wanted to leave and was pretty unhappy. That followed with more acting out once she was home with more drug use and finally her arrest for evading police.

My gut tells me she does have a drug problem but I do think there is more that she is keeping from me. Shame will not allow her to share these things with me so I am a bit loss as to how to help her.

I have a program that I looked at early this year and my dd actually met with the director to talk. Dd resisted going to the program like she resists all help. This time she will have no say. I hope to get into the program next week and they can assess her. I am also trying to get her into her T on Monday to talk. Because of the holidays she has not seen her T in a couple of weeks. That has not faired well for her. I do think her T helps keep her grounded some what... .or maybe I am delusional.

As far as finding the cig butts and condom... .that is not really my concern. I don't think she is smoking in the house because I would smell it but I do think she is maybe going outside and using the container as an ashtray. The condom... .well I think I should be happy she is having safe sex. I have no control over these things and I feel she needs to be the one in control of her body. I do not think shaming her or being judgemental is going to help right now. My main concern is her alcohol and drug use and her inability to follow simply rules around here.

I knew the minute my H said and did the things he did we would be going down this road. I do blame him for how the night unfolded. His inability and lack of effort to control himself is hurting dd and in turn is hurting our whole family. Right now I am more disappointed in him. My heart is hurting today and I am very superstition about new years day. What happens on New Years happens all year long. I do not like starting my year this way... .it is hard to be hopeful under these circumstances.

[pessim-optimist]

I am also thinking along those lines too so I don't think it is far fetched. It is her pattern too.

We used to have similar situations with my SD: she would act out and then not knowing how to get "back to normal" in a healthy way (i.e. make amends, apologize etc.) she would suddenly have a "medical emergency" forcing everyone to help her and focus on her. When the emergency was over, she hoped that nobody would mention the previous situation any more, and that there would be no consequences.

This is her unhealthy coping mechanism. Unfortunately, it worked for her many times, so we unwittingly helped reinforce it.  

My main concern is her alcohol and drug use and her inability to follow simply rules around here.

The placement in the program might be the best plan for help (is it a dual diagnosis program that addresses the addiction together with her mental illness?)

However, if the placement turns out to not be an option, I would still think through the options that you do have in order to not reinforce her unhealthy coping mechanisms (running away and becoming suicidal to escape consequences).

At the same time, it will probably be a careful balancing act, since you do appreciate her honesty and asking for help  - which is healthy and it would be harmful if she saw the placement or consequences as a "punishment" for her honesty.

I knew the minute my H said and did the things he did we would be going down this road. I do blame him for how the night unfolded.

How does he see it? Did you have an opportunity to hear his take on how he feels about it? Does he have the right skills and was simply overwhelmed and did not use them, or does he lack the needed skills to deal with it better?

[jellibeans]

Things are just not going well here. I had hoped that once everyone calmed down and got some rest that things would be better but my H continues to poke the bear... .poke the suicidal bear. He has been sleeping on the couch downstairs so he can keep watch. I really didn't think this was necessary but i guess it made him feel better and he felt he was doing something to help. Tonight my dd came to me to read me a note she had written yesterday... .the note was a sad suicide note and it mentioned the hurtful word my H had spoke to her. She talked further about her unhappiness and every drug addition but not telling me what drugs she is taking. She maintains that I would not be able to handle the answer so that does concern me because I am not seen a fragile person and I am probably seen as a pretty strong person by most. Well I assured her that I will get her the needed help and we will find a program for her and she went back to her room. I checked in on her around 12:30 and she was asleep. I went back to my room and my H appeared shortly there after to ask if my dd still had her laptop. I told her she did and that I thought it was okay for her to have it right now. I asked him to please not wake her as it was going on to 1am but he did just that and she was not happy. A big meltdown occurred and after a lot of yelling I asked my H to give back the laptop and to leave things alone. Once everyone is calm we can talk again in the morning. He then told me to shut up about a hundred times because I was not backing him up.

It is increasing hard to stand by him when I feel he is being hurtful and pushing DD to suicide... .I feel things have just really broken down and I know he is scared and I know he is trying to help but he is really only harming her and he won't listen to anyone because he is always right. He has a very stressful job and has been this way for some time... .years... .when things are bad for dd he rarely helps the situation... .I know I have not always done the right thing and I know I have not always said the right things at times but he really has not made an effort to learn about this disorder and he mostly carries around a lot of anger... .that is directed at dd and myself. He is extremely unhappy and is extremely self centered. His focus is on himself.

I talked with dd about out patient care and about inpatient care... .she feels like she needs inpatient care... .she is crying out for help and I am struggling with what to do. After tonight it might be best if she does do an inpatient program. I really feel my H is not fit to be around her and I can't protect her from what he says and does. The stress is just too much for him and it has been stressful for too many years.

Pessim

He doesn't see any fault with what he said or did... .he will never take responsibily for his actions... .he is the kind of person that is never sorry. I have a lot of books and he has not read them and he don't even attempt to learn about this disorder. His first response is anger every time. He has promised me several times that he would get help... .he would go to a T... .he has gone as far as to call but he has never made an appointment. I do think he is on the verge of a nervous breakdown. He has isolated himself from not only our family but also his one friend.

I am not sure what to make of dd's talk tonight... .she has told me some things I am having a hard time believing... .like she has been sneaking out of the house every night to go drink and smoke drugs. Now I do think she has done this but every night? I do see her really need to run and get away from her problems. This is a pattern she has repeated but she is suicidal... .and she says she thinks about killing herself all the time.

Still struggling here... .any advise is welcomed

[SlyQQ]

She will be an adult in less than twelve months so you are going to have to do some serious thinking i am faced with a similar dillema ( turned 18 a few days ago

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

I have talked to her T and P recently and they did not recommend that she go to a RTC... .but now that she is looking for help they might have a different view. She is ODD and they did not believe she really wanted help. I am still questioning that a bit myself. She is very good lair and although there is a thread of truth in what she says... .some of it is not true. With the holidays upon us I have not gotten anyone to return my calls. Her T is out of town so I am waiting but I really don't want to wait too long.

[SlyQQ]

My SD ( who i care for ) started doing meth I believe about 3 weeks ago she was already in a hot house program an has previously tried to commit suicide as well am taking it softly and thankfully some sores have appeared on her face so i am opraying she sees sense I contacted her therapist with my initial suspicions but all that brought forth was her being released from her involuntary treatment order ( other issues a week later I am keeping the jack boots approach in reserve an talked to her mother an posted here as to what to do but?

[Thursday]

jellibeans-

What a horrible start to your new year... .sorry thing are moving downhill so quickly for you.

A few thoughts-

It is a great thing that your daughter has asked for help. My SD (now in recovery) once told us many things that we just couldn't believe... .and we still don't know if we believe the exaggerated sounding stories that she tells about the worst of her addiction... .

but the truth is the drug abuse landed her in a therapeutic situation that helped her. So long as she is not participating in destructive behavior it is no longer important exactly how much danger she had put herself into in the past. I figure if she wants to pump-up "her story" by how bad she was, how many dangerous situations she put herself into, etc. who cares as long as she isn't using  substances now.

I think, since you and your husband cannot get on the same page about what to do with and for your daughter, you need to either find a way to get on the same page OR someone needs to design a protocol for dealing with your daughter. If she knows there is no united front she will manipulate it to her own detriment.

One thing I learned about my SD's problems with addiction is that we (my husband (her Dad) and I were in over our heads. While the psychiatric and psychological worlds may not agree on how to deal with mental illness, addiction specialists actually have great programs that DO WORK- and if your DD is willing, I would get her into a program. There has been so much study and work done to understand addiction. There are so many great programs available for addiction issues... .pretty much everywhere unless you are totally rural.

For my SD the thing in her treatment that was the most beneficial and served to change things for her in a positive way was her year in a sober living house. It was  the only time that money we spent to help my SD was actually well spent. She was 19-20 at the time and has been sober since. It took a year of someone else fielding her issues for her to "get it" and it took the burden off of us... .I can't speak enough to the benefits of us getting a reprieve in dealing with her daily issues after so many years of being crushed with a daily escalation of her poor and destructive behaviors. A year gave us time to reset- and many other benefits. Also, it took her that long to change for the better. When she was in her teens we spent a huge amount of money to send her to a therapeutic wilderness camp and while it helped her in a few ways within a few days she was back to old behaviors because she was right back where she started from only a few months earlier... .

Her issues with personality disorder are actually manageable for her without the negative effects of addiction. Being sober has allowed her to mature so that she is not so negatively affected by her immaturity. She could not gain any sort of foothold on a positive self-image while she was doing drugs. Every decision she made while actively using sent her self-esteem into the pooper from who she hung around with to her bald-face lying to stealing items from the family to pawn and sell to drunk-drugged driving which was our bottom line with her.

I understand (sort of) your husband's idea that to take things away from her might improve her behavior but for me, the truth is that taking away a laptop to solve this particular problem is like putting a Band-Aid on a stab wound.

I am being blunt and hope this isn't offensive. Jelli- if you can get your daughter into some sort of program now, I hope you will. Dual diagnoses is great but even if all you can do is get her into a sobriety program it will improve her life and who knows, maybe, like my SD, it will really help her. AA is filled with folks with personality disorders who are managing their lives because they hear a positive message at meetings and their lives are more manageable overall because they are not using. Sure, a lot of people relapse but if you can get a person with BPD to work a 12 step ((really work it)) they do slowly get some insight into a better approach to living. From the meetings I've gone to, both AA meetings to get insight and Al-anon to get help for my self I see a very strong DBT message.

And in an example of another way AA can help- the sponsor. One of my SD's sponsors really got on her about not having a job. She confronted each and every one of my SD's excuses and fears and actually challenged her about the correlation between being an addict and allowing others to manage your life for you. That message finally got my SD off of her behind about looking for a job. And after my SD got a job with very little effort ( after a year or more of lying about her effort) the sponsor drove that point home- "see how great things can be if you put your fears to the side and just give things a try? You were afraid before but you made yourself perform and now you have a great job that most kids your age would be so happy to have" and a bit of clinking iced-tea glasses but no message to my SD of being "amazing", instead, just plain old "good job on getting a job" talk.

So, even if your DD is simply saying all of this to get out of the trouble she is in, use this moment to get her the help she has been refusing. AT least that is my take on this... .

thursday

[jellibeans]

Thank you slyQQ... .I hope you can get some gelp for your dd soon.

Thursday... .I really got a lot out of what you wrote. I have been afriad to make a decision... .partly because I didn't think we were all thinking straight and my dd was looking for an escape but what you siad makes sense. She is asking for help and I need to find something for her now. I hope to find something today and I will keep you posted. I am in Texas so if any one knows a good dual DX place I would welcome the input.

[pessim-optimist]

jellibeans, I think Thursday gave you some excellent advice.

One thing that I would add to that is that the family dynamic seems to put you all into the Karpman triangle:

Your husband as the persecutor, your dd as the victim and you as the rescuer... .

I am sure that you will figure out this last situation and hopefully it will result in what looks like a needed placement in a program for your dd.

In the long run, maybe you can work with the therapist on a better conflict protocol (as Thursday suggested) so you can all stay out of the triangle?

[jellibeans]

Update:  I have two apts tomorrow. One with a drug rehab out patient program and he is going to make an assessment and help with recommending a program for dd. We are also meeting with he P to discuss recent events and see if he can help with meds for detox and guidance. Her T has yet to respond to my request for an apt. This is a pattern for her and is a sore point with me when my dad is in crisis

We have limped through this weekend and I hope monday is going to bring us closer to a plan.

I did have a long talk with my H and we decided for now I will be the interface with dd. It was a good talk and I felt he listened but he is not where he needs to be and that is radical acceptance

I do feel we all take turns in those roles of victim, persecutor and rescuer. I really try to stay in the middle as much as possible but I really am a rescuer at heart. All of us in our family are trying the best we can and as long as I remember that it helps with any feeling of frustration and anger at the situation.

I am really just holding on by my fingernails and hoping my dd gets better with time. I hope we get some good advise and direction tmr.

[pessim-optimist]

All of us in our family are trying the best we can and as long as I remember that it helps with any feeling of frustration and anger at the situation.

I am really just holding on by my fingernails and hoping my dd gets better with time. I hope we get some good advise and direction tmr.

You are doing your best, and hopefully tomorrow will bring you more peace and some relief... . 

[SlyQQ]

Some of the avice i have recieved elsewhere is that just treating the addiction has little success your best chance are dual programs i will dig them up an post them here p.s. I tend to agree ( from a loong history of drug abuse my SD BPD mum was a long term heroin user an i believed an sore the stories i was told ) wout primarily treating the BPD ( presumably the cause  one way or another long term success will be very illusive

[SlyQQ]

Rapt reader posted this for me

I'm so very sorry that this could be going on, SlyQQ Empathy

My own adult (37) son was a Heroin addict for multiple years, and got his BPD diagnosis at a Dual Diagnosis Program in 2013. He'd been to two "regular" Rehab programs in a 3 year period, a year before checking into this DDx Program, and this last one was the only Program that worked for him. It looked at his mental health issues as a priority, and the addiction as a symptom of them--instead of just getting him through Detox, Withdrawals and Recovery with no mental health evaluations and treatment.

He relapsed within 6 months after completing successfully both of the "regular" Rehabs, but is now 20 months clean and sober after successfully completing the DDx Program. I can't speak highly enough about such a Program. Maybe you can see if there is one by you that your stepdaughter might attend? Since she has mental health issues plus substance abuse/addiction (if your fears are true), she would definitely qualify... .

I'm really sorry about this; I know the pain, frustration, horror and helplessness involved with watching a loved one self-destruct with illegal drugs sad (click on the globe under my avatar, or the link in my signature line to read his story, which does have a happy ending... .) 

[SlyQQ]

Further to this the white report ( i think that is the name ) which was iniated under the nixon regime i belive to adress what they believed would be an eplosion of heroin use when Viet Vets returned from the war ( apparently over twelve an maybe as high as 25 % of us soldiers were using heroin an almost 50% had tried it ) The actual result was usage among Vets fell to almost baseline levels when they returned indicating it may not be exposure to hard drugs that causes addiction but "other " reasons found it Heroin in Vietnam: The Robins Study

Origins of the Disease Model of Addiction (Part 2).

In 1971, under the direction of Dr. Jerome Jaffe of the Special Action Office on Drug Abuse Prevention, Dr. Lee Robins of Washington University in St. Louis undertook an investigation of heroin use among young American servicemen in Vietnam. Nothing about addiction research would ever be quite the same after the Robins study. The results of the Robins investigation turned the official story of heroin completely upside down.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

slyQQ

I hope you have found some help for your dd. sounds like things have really gotten bad.

I am not sure what drugs my dd is using right now other than pot and alcohol but I am looking for a dual DX place. I am meeting with someone today that I feel will be able to give me some good advise and direction.

My dd is very depressed and withdrawn. She has not eaten much and I have been giving her additional anxiety meds to help her sleep at night. I will post more later after my meetings. Thank you all for you input and advise.

[Rapt Reader]

I hope your meetings today have proven helpful, jellibeans.

Maybe with the Professionals involved your daughter will be more open and honest with you regarding her exact status with her behaviors, and once the whole truth is "out" it will be easier to figure out how to deal with it.

I know that she would need to be detoxed, clean and sober and in recovery for this to happen next, but would she ever be willing to go to Neurofeedback sessions? There may be some access to it in your area, and I do know that my son's recovery has been based on two things: the Dual Diagnosis Program, and the subsequent NFT sessions he has been attending. He is now 22 months clean and sober (thanks SlyQQ for mentioning his story, for those readers who aren't familiar with it; the link to it is in my signature line at the bottom of this post).

I am looking forward to hearing how your appointments went, and what was advised. Thursday is right: use this opportunity--no matter what her truth is--to take your daughter at her word and get her into some sort of program while she is willing. But I know you already know that    All my best, jellibeans 

[jellibeans]

Thanks rapt for your input. After meeting with the professional he feels she needs to go to a dual DX RTC and I made calls today but have not had the ability to talk to anyone at the place recommended. I am also researching this place and also looking at other rtc as well. This place is in my state so I do like that. Dd is still willing to go but is nervous. She went for a run when we got home and I was worried she might not come back. She seems very depressed and just wants to sleep.

I also went to see her P for a short visit. I needed a 30 day supply of meds so I needed to see him. He really just talked with us for 15 mins and tried to reassure her.

Her T finally texted me this afternoon. Only took three days. I will not miss her at all. I only hope maybe we can find a new T after all this. 

Today was exhausting and I am not sleeping well. Tomorrow dd has a well check up which is good because I need this for new rtc. I hope to have a good plan tomorrow.

[Rapt Reader]

Sounds promising, jellibeans 

One step forward at a time, and moving in the right direction can all add up to something positive.

I hope you can reach that place you are interested in, tomorrow, and then that they will have a bed for her. I know the stress of getting it all sorted out, and I'll keep my fingers crossed for you... .Godspeed 

[Amal]

I'm so sorry you are going through this. It is so scary when you don't know what tomorrow holds. We are in a bad spot right now too.

We are in texas too. The best place for my daughter was Menninger in Houston. They are an rtc. They are so good at what they do and have the best resources for aftercare as well. Problem is they don't take insurance.  You have to pay up front but they will really fight with your insurance company when you file yourself. It was the treatment center that finally got my daughter's diagnosis right. But drs there were honest. The real work starts when they come home. Our daughter s dr told us as we were leaving to buckle our seatbelts. That we would be in for a rough few years. Was he ever right.

[SlyQQ]

I would strongly advise you to find out (including a pee test if she agrees ) what drugs you are dealing with. ( as a warning at my first attempt to pee test My step Daughter ( just turned 16 ) she painted me black an that was very hard to recover from