Separating the person from the disorder

[flowerpath]

I just read this: "When we choose to see the disease instead of the person, Alzheimer’s has won."

Then I thought about BPD and put it in that sentence:  "When we choose to see the disorder instead of the person, BPD has won." 

I totally understand how there is a limit to how much a person can take, so I'm not too sure either sentence is entirely true.

I’ve read that we need to separate the person from the disorder, and one thing I want to do is separate the person, my uBPDh, from the disorder.   In doing a search for the topic, most of the comments I found are on the Undecided and Leaving boards.  It seems like it's the next step after radical acceptance, shedding resentment, being forgiving, etc., but I just don’t know exactly how to separate the person from the disorder.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MissyM]

I think this basic theory is what is talked about a lot in Alanon.  A person has a disorder but that doesn't mean that they are the disorder (would be same as addiction).  It is hard when my dBPDh is dysregulating to separate him from his disorder but I am getting better at it. When I tend to mess up is when things are going along really well and then there is a BPD behavior out of the blue. 

[pallavirajsinghani]

And yet:

How can we know the dancer from the dance?

... .WB Yeats,  "Among Schoolchildren"

[maxsterling]

Well, we talk about this in alanon, but the "disorder" they are talking about it "addiction".   That seems to assume that a person minus the disease of "addiction" is someone we can love and accept.  It's a good construct, but in the case of BPD -  grrr - the reality is that BPD is part of the person - kinda hard to separate the person from the disorder.  Everything she does is through the filter of BPD.  For me, I think I need to accept the BPD as part of who she is, and to not separate that.  Accept her personality for what it is - mostly raw human emotions that I can understand on some level, and look for the good in that. 

It's tough.  But if I mentally try to separate her from the BPD, I feel like I am wishing her to be something she is not, wishing for something impossible.  After all, this is a personality disorder, and our personality is who we are.

[MissyM]

Well, we talk about this in alanon, but the "disorder" they are talking about it "addiction".

We talk a lot about the behaviors associated with addiction and how dry addicts also behave.  I tend to see BPD like a dry addict, there are still a lot of "isms".  How I react to that behavior is on me.  The detachment and depersonalization are the same (which to me is separating the disorder from the person).  A lot of people in my group have active addicts as family members, the way they describe dealing with it is very similar to what I deal with even though my dBPDh is currently sober.

But if I mentally try to separate her from the BPD, I feel like I am wishing her to be something she is not, wishing for something impossible.  After all, this is a personality disorder, and our personality is who we are.

Really, that seems kind of sad to me.  If I felt that the worst traits my dBPDh has displayed were him and not his maladaptive traits, I don't think I would be able to like him very much.

[flowerpath]

Then this is why it has been so hard to wrap my brain around it. 

[icom]

An individual's identity is a function of their primary socialization, and BPD is experientially derived.  

Until the afflicted individual undergoes an extensive period of therapy and resocialization, the person is the disorder.  

You cannot, as yet, separate the two.

It should be immediately apparent that individuals constrained by the ravages of BPD share very few social/relational points of reference with their contemporaries.  The personality is a pastiche of elements acquired over time, but all of these elements are transitory, as they are press-ganged into service as the needs demand.

 I remember when my girlfriend opened her Facebook account.  It was several years before she submitted a profile picture, and during those years there was only an empty silhouette there in its place.  That is a perfect description of her personae: it is a vacant mask.  

[enlighten me]

I agree with max and icom. The disorder is part of them and cannot be seperated. All you can do is seperate the behaviours you like from those you dont. Even what seems like good is such as idolisation is part of the disorder.

[Mie]

If BPD is a 'personality disorder' I find it very difficult to separate that from the person. I have scoliosis, and it's very difficult to separate from my body  , it's never going to be perfect, but after some corrective operations I have been able to live normal life.

My SO said yesterday something interesting: 'It's not easy to be with me. I have problems myself. It's like there's another animal in me I'm constantly trying to tame'. So they struggle with the same question... .

[AnnaK]

I don't know, I somehow manage to see the person "behind" the disorder.

It's like taking away the masks one by one - the "nice guy", the "angry monster", the "rational man" (occasionally "religious fanatic", "bad boy", "stubborn child", "loving uncle" and on and on it goes )... .and after all the masks are taken away - what is left is just a scared, ashamed, lonely, unhappy child kinda looking up at me - "so here is me... .so what now?"

[waverider]

The biggest issue with dealing with a pwBPD is their defensiveness as they assume you are going to blame/criticise them for everything that goes wrong. They believe someone has to be blamed. Either you or them.

If you bring in the concept of the disorder being akin to third party in the relationship it becomes easier to get on the same team and blame/deal with the disorder. They are less threatened if you can obviously blame the disorder rather than them. You can paint the disorder black together. You are always going to struggle to make headway if you are playing ping pong with the blame game. It has to rest somewhere

The disorder is a common problem you both have to deal with.

Of course you have to be careful of not allowing them to use it as an excuse to absolve them from all responsibilty for their actions.

[icom]

I don't know, I somehow manage to see the person "behind" the disorder.

It's like taking away the masks one by one - the "nice guy", the "angry monster", the "rational man" (occasionally "religious fanatic", "bad boy", "stubborn child", "loving uncle" and on and on it goes )... .and after all the masks are taken away - what is left is just a scared, ashamed, lonely, unhappy child kinda looking up at me - "so here is me... .so what now?"

  As you so correctly point out, they consist almost entirely of pathological ego defences to protect a completely underdeveloped personality, and they are the marionette to these defences. 

  Knapp's Relational Model states that relationships are maximized once they pass through an orientation, exploratory, and affective stages leading to an optimal level of stability on the final stage of bonding.

  BPD gets hung-up at the Integration and Bonding stages of relational escalation for good reason: there is no personality there with which to fuse; the personality has yet to be forged.

  How would I describe a BPD relationship?  Incomplete, like listening to a piece of music that ends on a dominant 7th chord instead of the tonic; it always leaves you hanging, and anticipating a resolution that is probably never going to materialize.   

[ColdEthyl]

If BPD is a 'personality disorder' I find it very difficult to separate that from the person. I have scoliosis, and it's very difficult to separate from my body  , it's never going to be perfect, but after some corrective operations I have been able to live normal life.

My SO said yesterday something interesting: 'It's not easy to be with me. I have problems myself. It's like there's another animal in me I'm constantly trying to tame'. So they struggle with the same question... .

They do. Some can admit it, some can't. And yet there are still pwBPD who cannot/refuse to see it at all.

There's a line in a song that my husband and I love that when we first heard it, he said it explained exactly how he felt sometimes.

"I got shadows in hiding, way down inside me, sometimes they work to the surface. In just the right lighting, you can see them beside me. I swear, I don't let them out on purpose."

I think of this when he's in dysregulation. It helps me to retain my own composure.

[123Phoebe]

I don't know, I somehow manage to see the person "behind" the disorder.

It's like taking away the masks one by one - the "nice guy", the "angry monster", the "rational man" (occasionally "religious fanatic", "bad boy", "stubborn child", "loving uncle" and on and on it goes )... .

I'm either not sure I understand what you mean exactly, or am pretty positive that I disagree.

This all sounds rather normal actually, well, maybe other than the "angry monster" persona.  Is a true religious fanatic only occasionally fanatical about their beliefs?  Does it make their personality more whole by being fanatical always?  Or would some other PD be at play there?  Would another religious fanatic disagree?  Loving uncle?  I'm a loving aunt; is it a mask I'm wearing?

and after all the masks are taken away - what is left is just a scared, ashamed, lonely, unhappy child kinda looking up at me - "so here is me... .so what now?"

Yes, so what now?  How does "knowing" this about him pertain to you and the relationship or help either one?

As you so correctly point out, they consist almost entirely of pathological ego defences to protect a completely underdeveloped personality, and they are the marionette to these defences. 

Knapp's Relational Model states that relationships are maximized once they pass through an orientation, exploratory, and affective stages leading to an optimal level of stability on the final stage of bonding.

BPD gets hung-up at the Integration and Bonding stages of relational escalation for good reason: there is no personality there with which to fuse; the personality has yet to be forged.

How would I describe a BPD relationship?  Incomplete, like listening to a piece of music that ends on a dominant 7th chord instead of the tonic; it always leaves you hanging, and anticipating a resolution that is probably never going to materialize.   

Materialize into what?  A satisfying relationship, or?  I guess if your expectations are such that you're set on a final destination... What that destination is would depend on personal preferences of both parties, I'm pretty sure, while enjoying the trip there, wherever "there" is.

[waverider]

I think what phoebe is saying is there is not a normal person there who has periodic BPD episodes,. It is there all the time and effects them at a personal level, but we only see it when it comes to the surface, hence personality disorder.

This is a valid point and must be borne in mind. Separating it out is only a coping visualization measure to help remove some of the blame game conflict so you can reach a level of cooperation in tackling the traits.

One of the things that I have experienced after sometime working together to deal with this disorder is that most of the hostile defense mechanisms has been stripped away, but this leaves behind someone who is incomplete, raw, vulnerable and with few coping mechanism. There is no "normal" person lurking underneath. It is quite obvious that what is happening is you are slicing off huge corrupted portions of who they are. These will need to be replaced by healthier replacements. Unfortunately cultivating new is a lot slower and harder than cutting off the old, and that wasn't easy.

[flowerpath]

Separating it out is only a coping visualization measure to help remove some of the blame game conflict so you can reach a level of cooperation in tackling the traits.

Got it.  That makes sense to me.

One of the things that I have experienced after sometime working together to deal with this disorder is that most of the hostile defense mechanisms has been stripped away, but this leaves behind someone who is incomplete, raw, vulnerable and with few coping mechanism. There is no "normal" person lurking underneath. It is quite obvious that what is happening is you are slicing off huge corrupted portions of who they are. These will need to be replaced by healthier replacements. Unfortunately cultivating new is a lot slower and harder than cutting off the old, and that wasn't easy.

How do you do go about deciding which trait or which defense mechanism to work on first?  Would it make sense to work toward replacing that with a healthier response first before working on another type of defense mechanism? 

[waverider]

How do you do go about deciding which trait or which defense mechanism to work on first?  Would it make sense to work toward replacing that with a healthier response first before working on another type of defense mechanism? 

Getting rid of conflict and projection of their issues is basically where we are at. This way we are both on the same side now, she doesn't dump on me or the kids and would be horrified with herself if she did. She can see this and own it. It does leave her with a whole pile of yuk and she is weak and dysfunctional. however given the conflict is gone, it is easier to give effective support and easier for her to accept. They feel less isolated and you fell less victimized.

This needs to be gone before you can work on anything, as it comes down to being able to accept ownership of the disorder as a whole, otherwise dram just shifts sideways onto another aspect.

Think of it as rather than trying to work out which hole to plug in the dam, reduce the water level and pressure on the other side. Then start repairing the holes.

Getting rid of conflict and hostility is no 1 coping aim

[maxsterling]

This is a good discussion.  I agree with those who say that once you take away the BPD, there is nothing left.  That's the way I see it when I look at my wife's life.  Just about everything she has done over the past two decades can be linked to a BPD behavior.  The global travelling?  BPD.  The relationships she was in?  BPD.  Her college degree?  BPD.  All of it was a means of searching for her identity or filling a hole. That's not to say all of it was bad, or even most of it was bad.  It's neither bad or good, it is what it is.  If I look at my wife, BPD is her personality.  

In two years with her, I can't think of a single thing she has done that wasn't motivated by core BPD traits of filling voids, searching for herself, or avoiding abandonment.  Even her relationship with me is an example.  I can easily see where my love and desire to be with her works completely different from her love and desire to be with me.  I know who I am and what makes me happy.  To her, I am what defines who she is and what makes her happy.  That's not to say she doesn't love me, but love definitely works in different ways for her.  And she admits to this.  Just last night she asked me if I thought she was too dependent on me.  Then she asked if I felt relationships were in part based in dependence.  I don't need her to feel valid as a person.  Yet she needs me to feel valid as a person.  As she has stated - I am her reason for living.  

[waverider]

 Then she asked if I felt relationships were in part based in dependence.  I don't need her to feel valid as a person.  Yet she needs me to feel valid as a person.  As she has stated - I am her reason for living.  

My partner often states that she feels we are bonded at the hip. I used to think that endearing, but now I know that is codependant. I am not grafted to her, I am a strong individual who may be intertwined, but I am not bonded and dont need her for survival.

She needs me to help her define who she is. She has internal structure to hang her life on.

[123Phoebe]

One of the things that I have experienced after sometime working together to deal with this disorder is that most of the hostile defense mechanisms has been stripped away, but this leaves behind someone who is incomplete, raw, vulnerable and with few coping mechanism. There is no "normal" person lurking underneath. It is quite obvious that what is happening is you are slicing off huge corrupted portions of who they are. These will need to be replaced by healthier replacements. Unfortunately cultivating new is a lot slower and harder than cutting off the old, and that wasn't easy.

How do you do go about deciding which trait or which defense mechanism to work on first?  Would it make sense to work toward replacing that with a healthier response first before working on another type of defense mechanism?  

Know thyself.  Get in touch with your own values and what boundaries are needed to protect them.  In my relationship, the healthier responses needed to come from me first.  I could tell him I didn't like something all day long, but until I acted on it, he would see a running mouth (that could be tuned out), while the body was still there; trying to get him to change so I wouldn't have to = trying to control him.  He was doing the same thing to me!  Only he didn't use as many words, his moods did the talking and I had a hard time tuning those babies out, with no idea how to approach them respectfully.

My guy responds well to my emotions, even what I sometimes feel are over-the-top emotions.  As long as they're not directed at him and align truthfully with how I'm feeling, he gets it, or at least opens up a new pathway toward understanding where I'm at, offering him the opportunity to meet me somewhere in the middle.  The middle ground is where we can begin walking together.  I have to be open it to it also, it can't all be about what I want, when I want; we're in this relationship together.

[AnnaK]

I don't know, I somehow manage to see the person "behind" the disorder.

It's like taking away the masks one by one - the "nice guy", the "angry monster", the "rational man" (occasionally "religious fanatic", "bad boy", "stubborn child", "loving uncle" and on and on it goes )... .and after all the masks are taken away - what is left is just a scared, ashamed, lonely, unhappy child kinda looking up at me - "so here is me... .so what now?"

 As you so correctly point out, they consist almost entirely of pathological ego defences to protect a completely underdeveloped personality, and they are the marionette to these defences.  

 Knapp's Relational Model states that relationships are maximized once they pass through an orientation, exploratory, and affective stages leading to an optimal level of stability on the final stage of bonding.

 BPD gets hung-up at the Integration and Bonding stages of relational escalation for good reason: there is no personality there with which to fuse; the personality has yet to be forged.

 How would I describe a BPD relationship?  Incomplete, like listening to a piece of music that ends on a dominant 7th chord instead of the tonic; it always leaves you hanging, and anticipating a resolution that is probably never going to materialize.  

Actually, BPD does have an ego, although under-developed. It is fractured, contains a lot of defences, it has problems with being self-aware etc. etc. - but it does exist, which makes bonding possible.

This is why BPD is relatively curable, or at least remission is possible. The goal is to strengthen the "observer" part of the ego, to make the person more aware of his own behaviours.

I deal with weird stuff by finding and pointing out the patterns, returning the projections and validating.

- Can you stop bothering me, I hate you!

- That's fine, you always hate me after I take the plane home. It usually passes in some weeks. I believe you hate me for leaving.

- After this thing you said, I am leaving forever!

- That's fine, the last three times you left forever, you came back in 3 days. So don't forget your keys.

- After what I've seen I don't want you near me! (projection after some "epic fail"

- That's fine. But after what I've seen, I still want you near me.

- I can't live with you!

- It seems to me, that you are afraid to go to your home city.

This actually gradually increases self-awareness, and as we get a working communication line through validation and recognising projections, it advances into "exploratory" stage... .and recognising patterns gives a reasonable level of stability to both sides.

---

PS: as we have reached the "exploratory" stage through a lot of validation and returning projections, a big deal of shame has surfaced. I am still not sure how to deal with core shame, but I softened my approach and I will concentrate on pointing out positives (trying to make him cut down on drinking, I was very critical lately)

[waverider]

Being consistent and not dragged into their world of absolutes.

[Crumbling]

Great topic!  Love the observations I've read thus far. 

When I look at it from the pwBPD's point of view, I can see where it would almost be necessary to separate the person from the disorder, in order to help them overcome the symptoms. 

About a month ago I had a big emotional explosion that was difficult to control for over 24hrs.  What helped me get through it and eventually over come that horrible state was telling myself over and over that it was okay, that I reacted the way I did because I have PTSD, and it was my disorder that flared up, and that it's not my fault. 

It helped to alleviate the guilt and shame of being so emotionally out of control, and allowed me to forgive myself and go easier on myself than before I was given the diagnosis.  Before, the issue would have been compounded with the added emotions of guilt, shame and self-hate.  Is that not separating disorder from person?  Would it not be the same for pwBPD? 

Some medical professionals are working at changing the name of BPD to Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder. I always thought that would make it easier to comprehend what is happening inside, than Borderline Personality Disorder.  But after reading these posts, I wonder if the present name isn't more suited than I first thought. 

PwBPD could be seen as having underdeveloped personalities, hence the childlike behaviours.  But also, there does seem to be a constant border, or a disconnect, between my BPDh's emotions and what is actually happening in the moment.  He can only react to the emotions going on inside, and cannot fully appreciate the present.  Like there's a border built all around him and he cannot connect with anything outside of those defined limits.

... .so, yeah, I do think of his person as being separate from the disorder.  The filter he lives his life through is BPD, the person he is, is what's behind the filter.  I have to believe that, or else I would really really hate him for all of his hurtful behaviours towards me.  If I believed that these actions are from the core of who he is, than I would have to leave, or accept myself as being a sucker for punishment, as we used to say. 

, c.

[waverider]

Great topic!  Love the observations I've read thus far. 

When I look at it from the pwBPD's point of view, I can see where it would almost be necessary to separate the person from the disorder, in order to help them overcome the symptoms. 

About a month ago I had a big emotional explosion that was difficult to control for over 24hrs.  What helped me get through it and eventually over come that horrible state was telling myself over and over that it was okay, that I reacted the way I did because I have PTSD, and it was my disorder that flared up, and that it's not my fault. 

It helped to alleviate the guilt and shame of being so emotionally out of control, and allowed me to forgive myself and go easier on myself than before I was given the diagnosis.  Before, the issue would have been compounded with the added emotions of guilt, shame and self-hate.  Is that not separating disorder from person?  Would it not be the same for pwBPD? 

This must help with your empathy and insight

Some medical professionals are working at changing the name of BPD to Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder.

Shocking name, that would be shortened to saying someone is officially labeled as "Unstable" and hence you can't trust anything they say or do.

[guy4caligirl]

I am thankful for you guys posting this topic  I have a question

When separating the disorder from the person I am having a hard time discussing this with my ex for five years ,5 months now after the B/U constant , LC , but we are communicating , I love to have another chance with her ...

My question is I have multiple reasons that she misses  me , but she is not letting her ego down  ,she has no boyfriend she's in another state ,

How can I go through the question that it could be her issues (disorder is getting in the way ?

I know how difficult it is for her to discuss that how can I brake it gently >

I wish to get waverider's response as  I know you all can help me .

[waverider]

I am thankful for you guys posting this topic  I have a question

When separating the disorder from the person I am having a hard time discussing this with my ex for five years ,5 months now after the B/U constant , LC , but we are communicating , I love to have another chance with her ...

My question is I have multiple reasons that she misses  me , but she is not letting her ego down  ,she has no boyfriend she's in another state ,

How can I go through the question that it could be her issues (disorder is getting in the way ?

I know how difficult it is for her to discuss that how can I brake it gently >

I wish to get waverider's response as  I know you all can help me .

Difficulty you have is that you are not together. She has that seperation as a safety barrier to be able to avoid the hard issues. pwBPD will rarely confront self critical issues if they can avoid them. It is only when they have run out of easier options.

You introducing it gives her a choice, entertain it or avoid it. It is easier to avoid and continue the delusion.

It is unlikely you can just come out with it, you can only really start treating her that way yourself. How she interprets that and allows the concept to develop depends on whether she is accepting of having BPD (even if not by that name) or not.

If you start acting like its not her causing problems (because you believe it) but something beyond her control, then she MAY feel safe enough to reveal more about her thoughts without fear of being seen as weak. But no guarantees, as she always has the easier option of continuing denial and avoidance.

Being openly seen as weak, even if they feel it, is a huge fear of many pwBPD

[guy4caligirl]

Thank you waive rider , I think she still loves me and care very much about me if not I do not think , I will ever get a response from her , she always say thank god for you , wish you the best and so , I want to brake that fear of opening up and breaking that barrier , I have been using the validation techniques and assure her that I am , very understanding of her boundaries , and even told her I know I did crash her boundaries and I thanked her for still taking the time to respond to me , and she always does even it takes a lot of time to reply ,but she does reply , she asked me today and said why are why are you mad at me and also said I spent an hour talking to you on new year's eve , I replied I am not upset or mad at you , she responded I don't like it when you are mad at me .

It looks to me that she just need a small tip of the balance to open up I know that from what I feel talking to her , she might be regretting but don't want to admit the failure of her leaving , if she comes back ,she has everything to look forward for  ,a job she loves running and buying for my business surf fashion and hers too . and I know she is struggling to make ends meet , I still help her with few dollars but she refuses the big dollars when back  and security .

your take please ?

[waverider]

Thank you waive rider , I think she still loves me and care very much about me if not I do not think , I will ever get a response from her , she always say thank god for you , wish you the best and so , I want to brake that fear of opening up and breaking that barrier , I have been using the validation techniques and assure her that I am , very understanding of her boundaries , and even told her I know I did crash her boundaries and I thanked her for still taking the time to respond to me , and she always does even it takes a lot of time to reply ,but she does reply , she asked me today and said why are why are you mad at me and also said I spent an hour talking to you on new year's eve , I replied I am not upset or mad at you , she responded I don't like it when you are mad at me .

It looks to me that she just need a small tip of the balance to open up I know that from what I feel talking to her , she might be regretting but don't want to admit the failure of her leaving , if she comes back ,she has everything to look forward for  ,a job she loves running and buying for my business surf fashion and hers too . and I know she is struggling to make ends meet , I still help her with few dollars but she refuses the big dollars when back  and security .

your take please ?

Are you sure she has boundaries as such? Boundaries are pretty fixed considered values with consistent enforcement, not shifting wants and limitations/abilities. pwBPD generally lack their own values and boundaries which is one reason they struggle to accept ours.

All you can do is keep the pressure off, and hence remove her perception that you may be critical, then it is up to her to realize her options. It may take the alternatives to appear to hard and scary for her to redirect towards you as the "comfortable" option.

Dont go into JADE trying to sell her your understanding/willingness to comply with her "boundaries" as you think they may be. Your actions need to be set by your values and boundaries, not reactive to someone elses needs. Otherwise you may end up enabling neediness, which can become instiable.

[Crumbling]

Shocking name, that would be shortened to saying someone is officially labeled as "Unstable" and hence you can't trust anything they say or do.

Can you?  Do you trust your pwBPD?  It's been a year since mine started T and I still don't trust him.  Every time there is evidence that he is being honest, I relax a little more, but I cannot say that I trust him, even now.

What I don't like about the name is that it makes it sound too common.  We all get emotionally unstable at times, and so I think it would perhaps make otherwise 'normal' people think that they have this, when in fact there's a lot more to BPD than not being stable.

Guy, I heard you say that 'you broke her boundary'... .could this be the starting point for bring up the subject?  Have you ever heard the saying "if nothing changes, nothing changes?"  Something needs to have changed between then and now if the second attempt at the relationship is going to have any chance at success.  BOTH of you need to be willing to make those changes.  If you have already made them, then that's where I would start the conversation.  I wouldn't have it talk until you have made that step.

This gives you the power to set your own boundary and say, look, if we try again, I need proof that you are making the changes you need to make, just like I have.  This shows her that you dont see her as a villian, and that you are willing to do what needs to be done to have a new life with her. 

I don't know, I haven't even read your profile, but all I know is that your best approach is to let her make her own choices, but lead by example.  If you do what is needed, there's a much greater chance that she will do what is needed.

good intentions comin your way!

c.

[guy4caligirl]

Crumbling  , thank you for the kind words

5 years RS 5 months LC , I really took a look at myself and realized what I have done she knows that I regret but can't change the past but  I am able to change the future , I feel within me that she still loves me and care about me she had mentioned it a lot lately like you're a good person she said  .

But I also feel that if I say give us a chance as I did in the past few months she won't yet , I am doing whatever I can to validate her feelings and be supportive to her while she is in another state with family .

When I stop texting and say , I am going to leave you alone , she always responds the quickest she can to say something to prevent me from not contacting her , I can name a few reasons why EX keeping me on the back burner and so on , well I am satisfied been on the back burner because I love her and I know I can help her by changing myself first witch I am working on it daily hoping she would see the change in me and I know she does .

Now the question is I lack patience and I don't know how to break the going back together , I know the result but I know as well the hesitation on her part I have not felt it till this holidays 5 months have been gone never gave up on her but lately I feel her taking baby steps to reconcile , let's text in bursts she said .

[waverider]

Shocking name, that would be shortened to saying someone is officially labeled as "Unstable" and hence you can't trust anything they say or do.

Can you?  Do you trust your pwBPD?  It's been a year since mine started T and I still don't trust him.  Every time there is evidence that he is being honest, I relax a little more, but I cannot say that I trust him, even now.

No I can't trust her completely but things wont improve if you hang a visible label like that around their neck. Can't see it making it easier to accept the diagnosis.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[enlighten me]

Any label will become unpalatable after a while. Borderline isnt offensive but when put with the dosorder and all things associated with it it becomes a very negative label.

[drummerboy]

I just came across this thread. I have been thinking a lot about this very issue. I don't think that you can separate the disorder from the person anymore than you can separate a person with red hair from their hair colour. I've seen on some BPD support groups mantras that go along the lines of "I am not the illness". This might help a pwBPD feel their is hope in their recovery but from a nons point of view, the pwBPD comes to us with a defective personality that affects everything they do including every interaction with other people. I have written a lot about my relationship and something I keep writing is "Who were you?" Was she a good person with an illness or was she a disordered person that sometimes acted nice? It's a bit of a chicken and the egg situation. The bottom line for me is she was a person totally incapable of having a normal adult relationship and I'm very glad that she is out of my life.

[flowerpath]

I don’t think you can separate the person from the disorder either (although I'd like to - completely!), and that was why I was struggling with the concept and what it really means.

I’m a visual learner, and this is what helped me to see what “separating the person from the disorder” really is:

I think what phoebe is saying is there is not a normal person there who has periodic BPD episodes,. It is there all the time and effects them at a personal level, but we only see it when it comes to the surface, hence personality disorder.

This is a valid point and must be borne in mind. Separating it out is only a coping visualization measure to help remove some of the blame game conflict so you can reach a level of cooperation in tackling the traits.

[enlighten me]

This come back to a post about self. Our self is made up from our lifetime experiences and actions. If we remove part of our personality then we are changed and not the same person we were. Strip away enough parts and what we are left with is a shadow of our former self. This is the same with a pwBPD. It is an integral part of who they are.

[pallavirajsinghani]

I have heard the alternate term,  "Emotional Regulation Disorder" being used.  I prefer this one because to me it seems very clear:  A person who has trouble self-regulating their emotions.

[waverider]

I have heard the alternate term,  "Emotional Regulation Disorder" being used.  I prefer this one because to me it seems very clear:  A person who has trouble self-regulating their emotions.

I often use a phrase like that when someone asks what BPD means. There is more to it than that but it gives a simplistic idea of the core issue.

This come back to a post about self. Our self is made up from our lifetime experiences and actions. If we remove part of our personality then we are changed and not the same person we were. Strip away enough parts and what we are left with is a shadow of our former self. This is the same with a pwBPD. It is an integral part of who they are.

Following on from this idea that we are a product of our experiences it is easy to see that a pwBPD who may reach a stage of being trait free they have missed out on a lifetime of "normal" experiences, and hence will always have a certain void that cant be replaced. There will always be a lot of stuff that has not been learned through personal evolution.

To a degree this is what makes treating BPD so hard as they dont have that "normal" perspective to fall back on, instincts will lead them back to native BPD thinking.

It is hard to remove anything without replacing it with something else. How can you provide someone with a lifetimes worth of healthy evolution?

[enlighten me]

I totally agree waverider. This is why early treatment of BPD is so important and where it not being able to be diagnosed until 18 hinders. By 18 we have learnt most of our coping skills for living. The older we get the more set in our ways we become.

This is also why treatment is so difficult and long term as you cannot change habits of a lifetime over night.

[waverider]

I totally agree waverider. This is why early treatment of BPD is so important and where it not being able to be diagnosed until 18 hinders. By 18 we have learnt most of our coping skills for living. The older we get the more set in our ways we become.

This is also why treatment is so difficult and long term as you cannot change habits of a lifetime over night.

Recently spoke to a BPD therapist and apparently the medical profession is starting to try and diagnose it earlier for this very reason. Problem that complicates it is until a pattern becomes repeated it is hard to attributed it to BPD accurately and not some other temporary stress factor. Teenagers can be pretty dysfunctional at that age anyway.

[enlighten me]

My exgf has a 10 year old daughter who displays a lot of BPD traits. She is selfish, manipulative, lies all the time and causes trouble at school which she blames on others. The problem is as her mum is not self aware then there is little hope that her daughter could get treatment. I have thought about speaking to her dad but I dont think it would be received well.

[waverider]

My exgf has a 10 year old daughter who displays a lot of BPD traits. She is selfish, manipulative, lies all the time and causes trouble at school which she blames on others. The problem is as her mum is not self aware then there is little hope that her daughter could get treatment. I have thought about speaking to her dad but I dont think it would be received well.

Its sad to watch but there is probably not much you can do. Is her mum pwBPD and is the father aware of it?

[enlighten me]

Her mum is uBPD. She ticks 7 of the 9 criteria. The two I cant be sure of are self harm/ suicidal and feeling of emptiness as this was never brought up. Mum is a typical queen type. She is not self aware as all her problems have always been someone elses fault.

Her dad isnt her real dad but raised her from a baby. I dont think he is aware of BPD and have never spoken to him.

Its hard to sit back and watch. Part of me thinks an early intervention could save a lot of heartache. Another part of me thinks it would blow up in my face amd make things worse.

[notdownyet]

I think that the person/personality can be separated from the disorder, in some individuals.

Of course, we’ve all experienced different relationships, and the disorder affects each individual in very much different ways.

The disorder in its self, is episodic and reactive, where the fight or flight urges are being triggered.  I would say that it's inaccurate to say that the BPD individual is permanently in this state, where the core personality is eclipsed by malformed coping mechanisms.

In my experience, I've concluded that my wife has a blue print for the personality that she would like to present to the world, which features a set of good core values, including some self-awareness.

However, during episodes and stressful periods, she'll lose sight of this blue-print, and her projected self will be a distinct mismatch with her core values.  I would say that this state is not a true reflection of her personality.

Perhaps in some individuals, this blue print only exists as an idealisation, which can never be achieved.   To use a metaphor, like software, that was never fully installed onto the hard-drive.   In which case, the personality would be very transient, and therefore very difficult to distinguish from the disorder.

FYI, these as just my personal thoughts and observations – I’m no psychologist.

[waverider]

I think that the person/personality can be separated from the disorder, in some individuals.

Of course, we’ve all experienced different relationships, and the disorder affects each individual in very much different ways.

The disorder in its self, is episodic and reactive, where the fight or flight urges are being triggered.  I would say that it's inaccurate to say that the BPD individual is permanently in this state, where the core personality is eclipsed by malformed coping mechanisms.

In my experience, I've concluded that my wife has a blue print for the personality that she would like to present to the world, which features a set of good core values, including some self-awareness.

However, during episodes and stressful periods, she'll lose sight of this blue-print, and her projected self will be a distinct mismatch with her core values.  I would say that this state is not a true reflection of her personality.

Perhaps in some individuals, this blue print only exists as an idealisation, which can never be achieved.   To use a metaphor, like software, that was never fully installed onto the hard-drive.   In which case, the personality would be very transient, and therefore very difficult to distinguish from the disorder.

FYI, these as just my personal thoughts and observations – I’m no psychologist.

Not all aspects of a BPD personality are toxic, but their information and emotional  process is always different. It is mainly at times of stress when there is an overloading leading to overt dysfunctionality that we really notice it.

During calm times they can be coping fine, fitting in, and all is sweet. But our thought process are as alien to them as theirs is to us. This is why they dont own, or realize, they were out of order as they dont have a "normal" to benchmark against.

It takes therapy to give them insight as to what is "appropriate' before they can realize that all the stuff that has gone wrong in their lifes comes from their own interactions. If they had non times and BPD times, then they would know after an episode they were totally inappropriate and hence learn the consequences were due to their own actions, making it easier to rectify.

They simply have triggered and non triggered times.

This blue print you speak of is what she has learned to wear to cope. BPD is not the words and ideals stated, it is the thought processing. It strips off under stress because it is not a real core value, it is almost who they would like to be rather than who they are.

[enlighten me]

I agree waverider. BPD is different from something like bi polar where there is a normal. I have a bi polar friend and during an episode he is aware that he is having one. With untreated BPD there is no self awareness. Every action is governed by fear. Even doing the shopping. Both my exs shop online as they hated shopping. I know realise that a shopping trolley is a snapshot of you and is open to strangers to judge. So even when they seem normal they are being controled by fear.

[waverider]

I agree waverider. BPD is different from something like bi polar where there is a normal. I have a bi polar friend and during an episode he is aware that he is having one. With untreated BPD there is no self awareness. Every action is governed by fear. Even doing the shopping. Both my exs shop online as they hated shopping. I know realise that a shopping trolley is a snapshot of you and is open to strangers to judge. So even when they seem normal they are being controled by fear.

The more you get into it and start to roll back the worst of the behavior the more you recognize ordinary everyday "adaptations" they are using to work around their issues in order to be functional. These adaptations are very subtle but eventually they can all be linked back to common core differences in the way they think.

[enlighten me]

Its sad but when I think about the worst times thats when I realise she was being most honest. Her public persona is so tpgether. Hair and make up for the school run. Always says the right thing etc etc. Behind closed doors a mess.

[waverider]

Its sad but when I think about the worst times thats when I realise she was being most honest. Her public persona is so tpgether. Hair and make up for the school run. Always says the right thing etc etc. Behind closed doors a mess.

Fear of not being in control and the demons showing through creates much of the anxiety issues. It can mean this over compensating leads to success in their outside lives leading to the typical "high functioning" type of pwBPD. They can be driven to be the boss, to have ultimate control. A fear of not being in control

[123Phoebe]

I don't know, I somehow manage to see the person "behind" the disorder.

It's like taking away the masks one by one - the "nice guy", the "angry monster", the "rational man" (occasionally "religious fanatic", "bad boy", "stubborn child", "loving uncle" and on and on it goes )... .

I'm either not sure I understand what you mean exactly, or am pretty positive that I disagree.

This all sounds rather normal actually, well, maybe other than the "angry monster" persona.  Is a true religious fanatic only occasionally fanatical about their beliefs?  Does it make their personality more whole by being fanatical always?  Or would some other PD be at play there?  Would another religious fanatic disagree?  Loving uncle?  I'm a loving aunt; is it a mask I'm wearing?

I think what phoebe is saying is there is not a normal person there who has periodic BPD episodes,. It is there all the time and effects them at a personal level, but we only see it when it comes to the surface, hence personality disorder.

Actually, what I was trying to convey is to be careful about pegging someone as having a PD simply from displaying an assortment of personality traits.  I don't understand how dissecting, then removing someone's very normal traits can define them as certainly having a mask-wearing PD, that when stripped away they become a scared, ashamed, lonely, unhappy child.  Because if that's the case, I'm curious to know what defines a personality, using that frame as reference?

How many people can say that they've never had a stubborn moment in their life?  Or haven't gotten into a deep (maybe even heated!) discussion about their religious beliefs?  Nice guy and rational man masks?  See, I'm just having a hard time comprehending how when you strip these "masks" away, you wind up with a scared, ashamed, lonely, unhappy child...  It's not making sense.  I have an understanding of Schema, this doesn't seem to fit in with that though.

What does make sense, is that we are all here taking part in this forum because we love somebody who we believe to have a personality disorder.  I think my guy is "perfectly normal", taking into consideration the events and life choices that bring him to where he is today.  He's had WAY more experiences than I have in certain aspects, while I have had a lot more in others.  We're different people.  We're going to respond to the world differently.  I'm going to trigger him and he's going to trigger me, because of our own experiences and how we relate to them.  Being triggered isn't really the issue, imo; how we react to the trigger is what makes all the difference.  Recognizing that it even IS a trigger to being with.  Being able to talk to each other about it, not place blame on them for triggering us.

In my case, this is how the relating would go; blame him for triggering me into having to know how I really feel about something, deciding whether it's something I can live with or something I have to draw a line on, then implementing my decision.  How dare he make me make a decision about my own life!  What about "us"?  

Me + He = US.  I make choices/decisions, he makes choices/decisions, that's where "us" comes in.  Our choices and decisions as rudimentary, awkward, fumbling and ungraceful as they've been at times have gotten us where we are today because of a real desire to get to know each other, to care about each other, to better ourselves, to bring out our best!

I don't want to strip him down to bare-bones to understand him.  I appreciate knowing what might possibly be going on with him, but then isn't it up to me to find out from him?

That's been one of the hardest things to do, because in order to do that I've had to take off my analytical, psych-driven thinking cap and feel my way through this relationship... .

Yikes!  But, whew... . Because that's what I do best.  I'm a pretty good feeler.  They just don't always = facts.

[notdownyet]

This blue print you speak of is what she has learned to wear to cope. BPD is not the words and ideals stated, it is the thought processing. It strips off under stress because it is not a real core value, it is almost who they would like to be rather than who they are.

I agree with most of what you're saying here.  However, BPD is on a spectrum and some will have more of a sense of self than others.

Generally speaking, my wife has a different mask for different occasions.  Under calm circumstances, and in the right environment, she’ll drop her mask and is able to recognise her own distorted thinking.  That’s not to say that the disorder goes away.

The question whether the disorder can be separated from the person is a difficult one to answer.  Maybe some can and some can’t, depending on how lost they are in their own world of fear.  Perhaps the answer is more of a philosophical one.

I agree waverider. BPD is different from something like bi polar where there is a normal. I have a bi polar friend and during an episode he is aware that he is having one. With untreated BPD there is no self awareness. Every action is governed by fear. Even doing the shopping. Both my exs shop online as they hated shopping. I know realise that a shopping trolley is a snapshot of you and is open to strangers to judge. So even when they seem normal they are being controled by fear.

Yes I agree, that the disorder is pervasive, and that their actions are constantly governed by how they're perceived; mixed in with shame

However, your point fits in with the view that this disorder is on a spectrum.  Not all BPD individuals fear leaving their own homes to do the shopping.

Not sure about your point regarding self-awareness during a bipolar (manic) episode though.  In this state, self-awareness is usually zero, hence the destructive and out of character behaviours.

[123Phoebe]

With untreated BPD there is no self awareness. Every action is governed by fear. Even doing the shopping. Both my exs shop online as they hated shopping. I know realise that a shopping trolley is a snapshot of you and is open to strangers to judge. So even when they seem normal they are being controled by fear.

Are you 100% certain that this is the case?  I know a lot of people who shop online because of convenience. 

[Crumbling]

Okay, this discussion has help me see my BPDh from many different points of view - this is good, ya!

Someone made the point that if you strip out the disorder, you are left with a scared lonely child.  BINGO.  That is the core of his person.  He has never had a safe way to move out of that state, or to heal that inner child and so, that kid 'drives his bus', or hides.  This little child is where the love needs to get to, but doesn't.  It can't because of the disorder. 

I love the adult him, with all his faults, and if I separate the disorder from who he is, in my mind, I can easier forgive him for saying/doing things that hurt me deeply.  Maybe this is dysfunctional thinking, I don't know.  All I know is that by recognizing the scared lonely child that is in the heart of who he is, I am much more apt to want to stay, love him, and do what I can to help him function better each day, because that little child hasn't hurt me, and never will.

MY BPDh is low-functioning.  He has been stuck doing the same types of jobs his whole life, never had kids of his own, never moved out of his hometown where he grew up, never been on a vacation.  Lived in the same house for 27yrs.  No post-secondary education. No drive to thrive in this guy! We are complete opposites.  I was drawn to his 'stability', him to my 'adventurousness' (if that's a word). 

This disorder is on a spectrum, and perhaps depending where on that spectrum your SO is, would play a factor in how you perceive your situation.  I also liked the comment that this is perhaps a philosophical question, and whatever line of thinking works for you is the right one.

It sure helps to see so many points of view tho.  That way, if my way of thinking ain't working, than I can perhaps try someone else's.

[enlighten me]

I agree the disorder is on a spectrum and some have more difficulty than others.

My point with my bi polar friend was that he is aware when he starts an epidode. He may get taken over by it but when je comes out he knows he had an episode. With BPD there isnt this awareness.

[Moselle]

I was drawn to his 'stability', him to my 'adventurousness' (if that's a word). 

Crumbling, I can relate to this, as it was part of my decision making process to marry my dBPD/NPD spouse as well. But the "stable" home-girl was not that at all. I think she picked up the cues about what I was looking for and mimicked my perfect girl.

How do you reconcile this? I feel cheated, fooled, tricked.

[notdownyet]

I agree the disorder is on a spectrum and some have more difficulty than others.

My point with my bi polar friend was that he is aware when he starts an epidode. He may get taken over by it but when je comes out he knows he had an episode. With BPD there isnt this awareness.

I understand your point.

My wife has episodes that involving extreme black and white thinking, blaming, projection etc – all the usual.

However, eventually she returns to what you might call a baseline, and is more self-aware.

Underneath this, I believe that there is a personality that wants to come out, and would like to think that she can become greater than the sum of her flaws.

[enlighten me]

With untreated BPD there is no self awareness. Every action is governed by fear. Even doing the shopping. Both my exs shop online as they hated shopping. I know realise that a shopping trolley is a snapshot of you and is open to strangers to judge. So even when they seem normal they are being controled by fear.

Are you 100% certain that this is the case?  I know a lot of people who shop online because of convenience. 

I cant be certain but what are we certain of with BPD? All I know is they both despised going to supermarkets. They also would buy stuff from the more expensive ranges wheras online its normal. The shopping trolley seemed to be more flamboyant if that makes any sense. They also studied other peoples shopping trolleys. I dont know it just felt weird. Nothing red flag like but there seemed to be something that I couldnt put my finger on. The only thing It felt like was that they were being judged. As if they didnt want to make a wrong choice in case they were thought less of.

[maxsterling]

My wife has similar issues to shopping.  enlighten me - I think you could be dead on here as to the reasons.  She's actually vocalized to me those issues.  And she, too pays attention to what other people are buying or wearing.  Part of that is the BPD, but she also has some serious FOO issues here.  She comes from a culture that tends to obsess over money and image.  She claims that when she was younger family members used to ask to look at the labels on her clothes to see what brand she was wearing.  She is very brand conscious.  A few months ago, she was in the mall and bought some clothes.  When she showed her aunt the clothes she bought, she made an apologetic and negative comment to her aunt regarding the store she bought them at. 

I had a BPD/NPD ex who was very image conscious as well, and worried that others would judge her.  I think in her case it was more of the NPD kicking in, that she felt she deserved some kind of a lavish lifestyle and everything else was beneath her.  She was constantly judging others for the way they lived.  And I think she felt that if she shopped at certain stores or ate at certain restaurants people would judge her as not high class.  She also had FOO issues - her dad had quite a bit of money, she once worked as a nanny for an extremely famous celebrity, and her sister was married to a very famous celebrity.

pwBPD seem to have issues with self-image and worries about other's opinions.  They also tend to mirror others.    But don't discount the role of FOO in all of this. 

[123Phoebe]

I dont know it just felt weird. Nothing red flag like but there seemed to be something that I couldnt put my finger on. The only thing It felt like was that they were being judged. As if they didnt want to make a wrong choice in case they were thought less of.

I can understand your line of thinking, enlighten me, I really can.  I've thought that way numerous times myself.  Then it was like, whoa, I'm judging them!  It's okay to be different.  It's okay to look in someone else's cart; shoot, I've ran back for carrots after seeing them in someone else's cart, or tried a new cereal.  Sometimes I get sick of the same old thing and can't think of what it is I really want--  Ooo, that spinach dips looks good, think I'll get some myself.  As long as I'm not taking it out of their cart, no worries

Then there's the issue of being thought less of... . This will probably be a bit abstract:

I know of a dynamic where the husband makes a good living, $250,000yr.  His wife and mother-in-law have fits(!) because he goes to a convenience store every morning for a pop.  ":)o you know how much money you're wasting?  If you bought those at wholesale store you could save $$$.  It's ridiculous blah blah blah"

This guy is not going to stop getting his morning pop from the store he chooses to get it from.  BUT, if he had a different personality, he might feel really bad about it, taking what wife and mil say on board, feeling like he doesn't live up to their standards (or who knows what ).  If they were to approach him differently about it, maybe he would take what they say on board.  Their approach is to tell him that he's an idiot for spending that kind of money frivolously.  They're judging him and his decisions.  No mention of the great job he's doing being a provider to his family; nitpicking tiny things, making mountains out of molehills.

I believe some of us do that sort of thing to our partners without even realizing it.  We take things we don't agree with or understand and blow them out of proportion.

[drummerboy]

My ex was terrified of shopping, just the thought of it paralysed her.

With untreated BPD there is no self awareness. Every action is governed by fear. Even doing the shopping. Both my exs shop online as they hated shopping. I know realise that a shopping trolley is a snapshot of you and is open to strangers to judge. So even when they seem normal they are being controled by fear.

Are you 100% certain that this is the case?  I know a lot of people who shop online because of convenience. 

[waverider]

I was drawn to his 'stability', him to my 'adventurousness' (if that's a word). 

Crumbling, I can relate to this, as it was part of my decision making process to marry my dBPD/NPD spouse as well. But the "stable" home-girl was not that at all. I think she picked up the cues about what I was looking for and mimicked my perfect girl.

How do you reconcile this? I feel cheated, fooled, tricked.

This is why they are good at job interviews, but lousy at keeping a job.

You can only reconcile this by changing your expectations and readjusting. This does not mean it is all give, find areas where you can gain reward that you otherwise didn't expect.

In short find a new "deal", the old one is dead duck

[waverider]

Nothing red flag like but there seemed to be something that I couldnt put my finger on. The only thing It felt like was that they were being judged. As if they didnt want to make a wrong choice in case they were thought less of.

This is often the case whenever a pwBPD is in high functioning mode, hence it can come across as being a perfectionist. Fear of being judged is the motivator. Yet at other times they can be oblivious of how out of order they can be.

Sometimes there is a general under current of being out of sync with things. It often reminds me of someone on their first day at work, trying hard to do the right thing, wary of making mistakes, but not yet totally relaxed to just smoothly go with the flow.

[waverider]

I dont know it just felt weird. Nothing red flag like but there seemed to be something that I couldnt put my finger on. The only thing It felt like was that they were being judged. As if they didnt want to make a wrong choice in case they were thought less of.

I can understand your line of thinking, enlighten me, I really can.  I've thought that way numerous times myself.  Then it was like, whoa, I'm judging them!  It's okay to be different.  It's okay to look in someone else's cart; shoot, I've ran back for carrots after seeing them in someone else's cart, or tried a new cereal.  Sometimes I get sick of the same old thing and can't think of what it is I really want--  Ooo, that spinach dips looks good, think I'll get some myself.  As long as I'm not taking it out of their cart, no worries

Then there's the issue of being thought less of... . This will probably be a bit abstract:

I know of a dynamic where the husband makes a good living, $250,000yr.  His wife and mother-in-law have fits(!) because he goes to a convenience store every morning for a pop.  ":)o you know how much money you're wasting?  If you bought those at wholesale store you could save $$$.  It's ridiculous blah blah blah"

This guy is not going to stop getting his morning pop from the store he chooses to get it from.  BUT, if he had a different personality, he might feel really bad about it, taking what wife and mil say on board, feeling like he doesn't live up to their standards (or who knows what ).  If they were to approach him differently about it, maybe he would take what they say on board.  Their approach is to tell him that he's an idiot for spending that kind of money frivolously.  They're judging him and his decisions.  No mention of the great job he's doing being a provider to his family; nitpicking tiny things, making mountains out of molehills.

I believe some of us do that sort of thing to our partners without even realizing it.  We take things we don't agree with or understand and blow them out of proportion.

I think the issue is not that they are being judged but that they fear they are, when they aren't.

In your example a pwBPD may fear being judged as being poor if they weren't making a show of being oblivious to cost. ie being seen to have money to waste is an image of their status and must be maintained. A well balanced person would just do as they wanted as long as it was within their means.

Keeping up an image however does not inherently point to a disorder, many folks rank it as important. I used to, dont now. In fact maybe I make a show of not making a show... ... We're all a little crazy

[enlighten me]

That does fit waverider. Like I said couldnt put my finger on it.

Ive started another thread on shopping as I dont want to hijack this one.

[Rapt Reader]

This thread has reached its post limit and has been locked. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation.