Looking for couples T before we give up (Part 7)

[Grey Kitty]

The saga of my wife cheating is now in its fourth month. I didn't think I was going to let it go on this long. History here... .the titles shifted with my feelings at the time:

Part 1: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=235769.0;all

Part 2: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236247.0;all

Part 3: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236799.0

Part 4: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=236950.0;all

Part 5: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=237387.0;all

Part 6: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=238665.0;all

I though we were proceeding toward reconciliation. We were having a holiday together with half of her FOO, with the associated drama... .not too bad, and I wasn't contributing (much if at all).

She later told me that she was intending to break things off with me when she was coming to see me... .but found that she loved me and I was loving, and even that I was changing in ways that seemed really good to her. (Less codependent, less enmeshed with her)

Then she dropped a small bomb... .she wanted to send a (small) Christmas present to the guy she had cheated with. I handled it fairly well; let her know how I felt about it, and that it was her choice if she would do it or not... .and my choice what I would do if she did.

For me, this issue wasn't really the present, but that she had cut contact with him, which was my requirement for reconciliation with her.

We are in the early planning stages for a big event that we will be involved in next summer. We both believe he will be at the event, nearby. My wife not being in contact with him at this time is a BIG issue for me. Apparently it is important for her too.

It was already a stressful time, and one where we had obligations besides fighting things out. So I backed away from the conflict a week ago. Here's where we left it:

My wife told me that she had cut contact with him on her own terms, not mine. (Not what I remembered, and I KNOW I was very clear at the time.) That she was still friends with him, and would resume the friendship when she saw him.

I asked her if she would be willing to work this out with a couples therapist before we gave up and ended it. She agreed. We (mostly) tabled that conflict.

Next was my family... .for a funeral, but turned into a holiday reunion; we were there 'till New Year's Day. Sad, but not tragic, lots of sweet things... .and a few of the normal family dysfunctions. Of course my family isn't as bad as hers 

I pushed her to STOP RUNNING from place to place, and find somewhere, preferably within about an hour of the small town I'm in where she could unpack and live for a couple months, and we could find a couples T to work the issues. I *think* she's going to do it, and I desperately hope so, both for our marriage to have a chance and for her own health/sanity. Moving around and spending most of her time in somebody's guest room, never having a chance to unpack, and few chances to shut the door, be alone, and either reflect or just take care of personal business is exhausting her physically and emotionally.

She doesn't want to stay on the boat with me (and I don't want her here) while I'm working on it. She also doesn't particularly want to be in this region, although in the short term, I don't see much in the way of better options for her. Long term, I don't want to stay in this region any more than she does.

I had to walk a fine line--I'm not in a position to tell her what she needs to do, or where she needs to go. We have had a lot of control fights in the past. What I told her was that I want to work things out with her, and don't think it will be possible unless she settles down a little bit.

She's admitted that she doesn't particularly like her choices. I've tried to give her a little sympathy, but I've already been through that one--I don't like my choices very much either... .and have found that pretending I can choose something that doesn't exist is worse than making a choice I don't like much... .that choice to live in a fantasy world is worse for me.

So here I am... .one step back... .pretty much were I was a before Thanksgiving... .not able to accept my wife having a 'friendship' with the guy she cheated with (I've been able to avoid speaking of it, but not thinking about it when I'm with her)... .and not at all convinced she can/will stop it.

Without feeling quite as ready/at peace with ending my marriage as I did back then.

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[vortex of confusion]

I have a couple of questions based on what you have said here.

I am not sure if I understand things correctly. She says that she has cut contact but still wants to be friends with him. That doesn't add up and neither does her desire to send him a present. From where I sit, it sounds like she isn't fully committed to working on things with you. Are you okay with that or are you tabling it in the hopes that a counselor will help the two of you gain some clarity on the issue?

Are you saying that you are no longer comfortable with the idea of ending your marriage? If so, why? What is that you are holding on to? In another thread, somebody asked me what my spouse brings to the relationship. Have you thought about what it is that your wife brings to the relationship? What do you bring to the relationship? Is there realistically anything to build upon? Or is that something else that you are hoping to figure out with the help of a counselor?

[Grey Kitty]

I'm saying that she let me believe she had cut contact completely back at Thanksgiving. Last week she told me that cutting contact was on "her terms, not mine." I honestly don't care much whether I fell for wishful thinking, instead of the truth, if she lied at the time, or if she changed her mind.

I'm not feeling the kind of peace and acceptance about ending my marriage I was feeling back then. The circumstances that I can't make work in it don't seem to have changed much.

I think she's emotionally unable to even make her own mind up about anything properly right now. I'd hate to end our marriage before she's got her act together enough to make a decent/informed/intentional choice about it. Dunno if I'll get that luxury. If I can't trust her to be married to me, why should I expect her to give me closure in ending it?

Still I'm willing to try a bit longer. Maybe couples T will hit her with a cluebat. Or maybe she'll get individual T and get hit by one. Sigh.

And yes, she does have a lot to offer in our marriage. (I post here to share/get help with/vent about the problems mostly!)

[Grey Kitty]

I just heard tonight that my wife found a place to stay, and sounds happy with it, or at least the friendly cat who lives there. It is what I pushed her to do, and I think it will be good for her.

I should be relieved. I'm feeling a little anxious. (What is that about? I dunno, but I just suggested on another thread that feelings are real, exactly as they are... .not as they should be. Oh well)

I'm on the hook to find a couples T. I asked her if I should find one or she should, and she asked me to. I need to either get to work tomorrow looking... .or try renegotiating that.

I'm also feeling like my ability to work on what I want to do (boat projects) without being wrapped around my wife's axle is still fragile, and I'm nervous about that. I've not got back into my working groove yet after the holidays. I could be disrupted before I begin.

[MissyM]

I should be relieved. I'm feeling a little anxious.

That makes a lot of sense to me, being on the verge of change and not knowing what that change will be is anxiety producing.  I feel that way, somewhat.  Feel that the approach my dBPDh and I are on could work wonderfully but also recognizing that he can veer off course at any time.  I believe I will be good no matter what occurs but I would prefer having things settled.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm finally letting myself feel the cognitive dissonance I've been avoiding for the last couple weeks.

Looking back at it, I was ABSOLUTELY clear that my terms for my wife coming back were that she cut contact with this guy unconditionally.

She told me she cut contact and was trying to work things out with me at Thanksgiving. If she was thinking that she would be back in touch with him later back then, she was effectively lying to me. If she changed her mind since then, it is more of a new betrayal.

I really cannot convince myself that I got that sort of message back in November and ignored it.

Now I'm letting myself spend some time with the feeling of being betrayed by my wife. Or perhaps unable to avoid those feelings. And that is in direct conflict with my actions over the last couple weeks--I've been loving, supportive, affectionate, etc. with my wife. Yes, I do want to work things out with her. Yes I do love her.

I feel like I'm not being true to myself when I stuff this difficult dark stuff down and don't express it with my wife. I'm also afraid that it is coloring the affection I try to aim her way, and that isn't good either.

Blargh!

And she's coming this way to see me again today perhaps in an hour. We've got some delayed Christmas gifts to send out. I'm not feeling ready to be as skillful as I want to be with her.

[123Phoebe]

I'm not feeling ready to be as skillful as I want to be with her.

Sometimes skillful isn't the way to express our feelings.  Sometimes I've just laid them out there... .   

[MaroonLiquid]

I feel like I'm not being true to myself when I stuff this difficult dark stuff down and don't express it with my wife. I'm also afraid that it is coloring the affection I try to aim her way, and that isn't good either.

Right there with you.  That's where I was the other day. 

[Cat Familiar]

I'm finally letting myself feel the cognitive dissonance I've been avoiding for the last couple weeks.

Looking back at it, I was ABSOLUTELY clear that my terms for my wife coming back were that she cut contact with this guy unconditionally.

She told me she cut contact and was trying to work things out with me at Thanksgiving. If she was thinking that she would be back in touch with him later back then, she was effectively lying to me. If she changed her mind since then, it is more of a new betrayal.

I really cannot convince myself that I got that sort of message back in November and ignored it.

Grey Kitty, I'm seeing your situation through the lens of my dysfunctional relationship with my exBPDh, who also wanted to explore polyamory.

There were many points at which I put my foot down and said, "No more. Either her or me." And he would always choose me and promise to cut off contact with the various "hers."

Then he would start to weasel his way back to having what he wanted. At first, it was just "friends" and then friends would turn into "f*@k buddies" without my awareness. When I would find out, it was like in his mind, "it just happened" and that he had no intent for things to get that far.

So I worry that your wife wants to give this guy a gift and stay in touch with him. To me, it means that she isn't done with the relationship.

You're in a bind because if you demand that she discontinue contact, then she likely will resent you. But if you don't, then you have to rely upon her sense of self control and honor in keeping agreements, and already she has broken an agreement that she made to you.

[Targeted]

In my experiences we tried two different counsellors, One of them she was actually able to manipulate so easily that she turned her affair around to be my fault, not only was it my fault but she had her counsellor telling me that even though she broke up with me for three days to have this affair The bottom line is we were broken up so she is free to do as she pleases and I should not be upset about it.  Crazy huh?  The other counsellor went to Started off great, we had many conversations about what could be done to make this relationship that are on my side, as long as the negative focus was on me this counsellor was great. We Sathers Council are numerous times but it was all over when the counsellor said Targeted has some very valid points here there are things you are going to have to do to make this relationship better as well, this counsellor was immediately devalued and discarded,  when he showed her the cluebat you are speaking of she just ran.  I do not think a regular couples therapist can do much help unless they understand there is a cluster B disorder involved and then had a deal with it,  I do wish you the best of luck and hope your counselling goes better than mine did

[vortex of confusion]

Now I'm letting myself spend some time with the feeling of being betrayed by my wife. Or perhaps unable to avoid those feelings. And that is in direct conflict with my actions over the last couple weeks--I've been loving, supportive, affectionate, etc. with my wife. Yes, I do want to work things out with her. Yes I do love her.

I feel like I'm not being true to myself when I stuff this difficult dark stuff down and don't express it with my wife. I'm also afraid that it is coloring the affection I try to aim her way, and that isn't good either.

One can feel betrayed and still be loving, supportive, affectionate, etc. I try really hard not to act on my feelings until I can sort them out. While I sort them out, I still attempt to be loving, supportive, etc. That is actually something I have had a bit of contention with my husband over. He doesn't have to fall all over himself giving me attention when things are clearly not good between us but he doesn't have to be a jerk either. If a person's goals are to find a way to make things better, then one should try not to make them worse.

My first thought was actually "If those actions are in direct conflict with what you are feeling, then what would actions that are not in conflict with your feelings look like?"

I'm with Phoebe, sometimes it helps to let things get a little messy, especially if you have boundaries that will help you to keep things from going too far afield. Part of a healthy relationship is being able to be vulnerable to one another. If being vulnerable creates too much fall out, then what is the point of the relationship? (A question I ask myself quite often because I really do want to be able to speak freely without worrying about being skillful or perfect.)

[Grey Kitty]

@targeted, Yes I'm very aware of the difficulty of couples T with a pwBPD. My wife has made a great deal of progress and is more self-aware than the pwBPD that sent most members here. In addition, we have been to five different couples T over the years; Three were good and helped. Two were for only one session and weren't helpful. I trust our ability to identify one we can work with.

@Phoebe, Yes, I will need to just lay stuff out there, more than being skillful, and especially more than walking on eggshells. For whatever reason I'm not ready to do that today.

@Cat, my wife and I were nominally successful in a prior polyamorous relationship over a couple years. There was a LOT of drama, mostly involving the other two people. I'm willing to consider such things in the future, just not stable enough in my marriage to want to look for any other r/s today... .and for me, new r/s need consent of the spouse (and any partners of the new person) begin. That's where my wife blew this one.

So I worry that your wife wants to give this guy a gift and stay in touch with him. To me, it means that she isn't done with the relationship.

You're in a bind because if you demand that she discontinue contact, then she likely will resent you. But if you don't, then you have to rely upon her sense of self control and honor in keeping agreements, and already she has broken an agreement that she made to you.

BINGO. Today she's likely to refuse my "demand" to discontinue contact. Or likely to break it. Again. I see her current actions as planning to break it.

I've got a new strategy I'm thinking about, and this centers around the big event this summer (which we need to make initial plans/commitments for ASAP).

The old way: Asking/demanding she not see this guy then... .and accepting her assurance... .and making plans... .and finding it too late to change when she finally breaks the agreement at the last minute. And feeling heartbroken and betrayed and having a horrible experience at the event.

My new idea: Tell her that I'm going to plan to do the event separately, unless she can do something to convince me I should trust her.

The really tough part is that planning to do it separately is a BIG thing for us. Not quite as big as filing for divorce... .but provocative enough that divorce may well be inevitable if I do.

[maxsterling]

Not sure I can offer any good advice here - but I want to say thank you for posting this.  I think it serves as a reminder to me to periodically think about what I want in my r/s and what my limits would be.  I know in my case, infidelity has to be a deal breaker.  It sounds to me like you have examined this and are still wanting to work though this so long as she is willing to give up the replacement?  Understandable.  Or is it more that you are willing to keep pushing for the r/s as long as she is willing to put in the effort?  And you want some sign that she is putting in effort for you to keep putting in effort?

My advice - marriage counseling is no guarantee to fix anything.  If you are looking at her going to T with you as a sign she wants to fix things - perhaps examine if this alone is something that would satisfy you. Or do you need something else to happen in MC?  I know I need to be constantly reminded to make decisions based upon what I want/need in my r/s rather than my wife meeting certain criteria or conditions.  It's tough to sort through all this, and put the love and feelings aside and ask ourselves what we really want

[Cat Familiar]

@Cat, my wife and I were nominally successful in a prior polyamorous relationship over a couple years. There was a LOT of drama, mostly involving the other two people. I'm willing to consider such things in the future, just not stable enough in my marriage to want to look for any other r/s today... .and for me, new r/s need consent of the spouse (and any partners of the new person) begin. That's where my wife blew this one.

... .Today she's likely to refuse my "demand" to discontinue contact. Or likely to break it. Again. I see her current actions as planning to break it.

I've got a new strategy I'm thinking about, and this centers around the big event this summer (which we need to make initial plans/commitments for ASAP).

The old way: Asking/demanding she not see this guy then... .and accepting her assurance... .and making plans... .and finding it too late to change when she finally breaks the agreement at the last minute. And feeling heartbroken and betrayed and having a horrible experience at the event.

My new idea: Tell her that I'm going to plan to do the event separately, unless she can do something to convince me I should trust her.

The really tough part is that planning to do it separately is a BIG thing for us. Not quite as big as filing for divorce... .but provocative enough that divorce may well be inevitable if I do.

I can understand polyamory in theory, but in practice, I've only seen it bring heartbreak with all the couples I've seen who have experimented with it.

Part of the problem is that you have so many egos involved (and potential personality disorders) and that keeping everything fairly equivalent just seems to be unrealistic. One couple I knew found another couple where two people were having a wild sexual adventure and the other two partners were going along with humoring their partners' desires, but only had a warm friendship. At a certain point, the sexual partners exhausted their desire for one another, while the friends developed love for each other. Then the two who desired to begin the relationship became angry and felt betrayed because their partners fell in love with the others, while they were merely having sex.

I'm sure there are people who can make it work, but all I've ever seen is disaster. In my opinion, most people do not have such a strong relationship that they won't put it at risk once they involve other people.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm with Phoebe, sometimes it helps to let things get a little messy, especially if you have boundaries that will help you to keep things from going too far afield. Part of a healthy relationship is being able to be vulnerable to one another. If being vulnerable creates too much fall out, then what is the point of the relationship? (A question I ask myself quite often because I really do want to be able to speak freely without worrying about being skillful or perfect.)

Speaking skillfully is a standard I aim for at all times, with all people. Yeah, I've messed it up before, and will again.

Being vulnerable is a choice, and comes in levels. Too little and you have no genuine encounters with people. Too much and you are exposing yourself to more hurt than you should, or possibly doing some sort of boundary-busting engulfing behavior. It is always a balancing point, and I know I'll always be re-adjusting my balance when I miss a little.

I'm feeling a lot less safe being vulnerable with my wife since she cheated last October. That seems healthy. It shouldn't surprise anybody. It also feels weird because she was the person I shared everything with for my entire adult life... .until a few years ago when I had to address the abusive nature of our marriage. I'm sure that doesn't surprise anybody here either.

Right now I'm wanting to find a safer time and place to express some of this. Doing it skillfully doesn't mean being kind, calm, or gentle. It just means speaking my own feelings and emotions and needs clearly. It means not kitchen-sinking too much old crap in with what is bothering me today. There is prior betrayal like this and I'm either still hurt by it, or this brought it back up... .so it is very much impacting me today, and cannot be completely ignored.

@Cat, many poly people are closeted, so you mostly hear about the ones that blow up badly. I will acknowledge that a couple can muddle along with some very poor r/s skills for a long time that would blow up a poly r/s much faster. I don't need to slam the door shut on all additions today. And I've found that I personally can make two r/s work at the same time... .at least as well as the r/s are capable of working. (I ended my second r/s because it wasn't working for me as a r/s, not because it was poly.)

What matters to me is that I'm NOT able to add THIS guy into my marriage, and I'm not sure my wife can give up occasional contact with him.

@Max, yes, she does want to save our marriage. So do I. Neither of us is sure that we can find a way to live together again, or even stay married. That's why we are looking for couples T.

And I'm feeling like before I'm willing to be vulnerable and really blow things up again, I want at least a referee in the room with us. I also want her to be more stable.

[Grey Kitty]

Update: She's found lodgings and unpacked her stuff. She's also tapped into a community which will be friendly and supportive to her. (In contrast, I have almost nothing local where I am, or I've failed to connect to what is here.)

I saw her today, a brief visit mostly logistical stuff. I tried to be warm and friendly, but I'm feeling down. She was bouncy/happy/perky. I was vulnerable enough to share some of what was getting me down.

She did say something about just wanting to be friends with the guy, not wanting to be lovers with him. Even if I trusted her with him, I don't trust HIM as far as I can throw him; This whole thing started mostly because he was trying to manipulate/entice her into it. Didn't mention that part. I just don't want to argue with her about what a douchebag the guy is, and I figure if I start it, she'll probably get to defending him, and that's the last thing I want to have happen.

Just feeling kind a crappy right now. Like my life sucks and hers doesn't. Sigh. I'm sure these feelings will pass. When I'm more comfortable with the tough choices I've got, I do feel happier. I'll get on my game again, soon enough, I'm sure.

[formflier]

  If she changed her mind since then, it is more of a new betrayal.

Can you explain this a bit? 

[MaroonLiquid]

Update: She's found lodgings and unpacked her stuff. She's also tapped into a community which will be friendly and supportive to her. (In contrast, I have almost nothing local where I am, or I've failed to connect to what is here.)

I saw her today, a brief visit mostly logistical stuff. I tried to be warm and friendly, but I'm feeling down. She was bouncy/happy/perky. I was vulnerable enough to share some of what was getting me down.

She did say something about just wanting to be friends with the guy, not wanting to be lovers with him. Even if I trusted her with him, I don't trust HIM as far as I can throw him; This whole thing started mostly because he was trying to manipulate/entice her into it. Didn't mention that part. I just don't want to argue with her about what a douchebag the guy is, and I figure if I start it, she'll probably get to defending him, and that's the last thing I want to have happen.

Just feeling kind a crappy right now. Like my life sucks and hers doesn't. Sigh. I'm sure these feelings will pass. When I'm more comfortable with the tough choices I've got, I do feel happier. I'll get on my game again, soon enough, I'm sure.

Maybe in her mind she feels like it is a fresh start for her and the two of you? 

[formflier]

 

Grey,

I'm wondering if the title of this thread is an insight to your thinking.

I bring this up because I admire your thought process... .

I would think a good title is "looking for a couples T... ."

or

"looking for a couples T... .to try to grow closer... ."

something along those lines.

I would challenge you to search your heart... .examine it to see if there are any "defeatist" attitudes in there.

Remember... .pwBPD traits are good at picking up nuance... .small signals... .my hope is that you can exude a solid "staying" signal.

Of course... .I could also be reading too much into your title... .

Just a thought... .

[Grey Kitty]

FF, I picked the title to echo what I said in the conversation that got us deciding to look for a couples T.

My mindset was this: We were staring into the face of a disagreement very similar to one we'd had before. It is the kind where we both get more entrenched, more aroused, and feel more negatively about each other, until we are both angry enough to want to end things.

At the time we had things to do and I wanted to table the fight and civil, even loving with her... .giving us both more reason to work things out.

  If she changed her mind since then, it is more of a new betrayal.

Can you explain this a bit? 

She told me she cut contact with the guy, back in November when I was VERY CLEAR that in order for us to go forward she had to do so, unconditionally, with no plans to resume contact at a fixed date in the future.

Now saying she's still friends with him and will resume the friendship (at the event this summer) feels like a new betrayal.

[Grey Kitty]

Does bring up an interesting thought for me:

I'm in a "What am I willing to end my marriage for?" kind of place.

I'd rather be in a "What can I do to save my marriage?" place.

I suspect my wife is looking at the negative side too. One of us has to blink and stand down first, if we are going to stay together.

[Grey Kitty]

I just got off the phone with the founding member of Team Grey Kitty (in real life).

She reminded me of the first assignment she gave me, back in October. To feel. I've handed that advice out here quite a bit, and it is a lot easier to suggest it for somebody else than to do it myself. Sigh.

So what am I feeling? Mostly discouraged.

Partly 'cuz I was too busy trying to make the best of a stressful holiday season by NOT bringing up unnecessary conflict with my wife. Not that my excuses matter much, or change what I'm finding when I do feel.

We returned. I spent one day running errands (mostly for myself) and taking care of her so she could have a day she spent in bed mostly. That was last Friday. She needed some stuff, so I saw her Monday too. Neither day did I do much of significance for myself. The intervening days I was in contact with her, getting and receiving friendly, lovey texts and notes, plus doing some personal business.

And underneath, I kept feeling crappy over her decision that she's going to see the guy she cheated with again this summer, and is continuing the friendship. (She claims she doesn't want to resume as a lover with him, for what it is worth... .which isn't much to me.)

I kept stuffing that feeling and trying to paste a smile on and give her a kiss. Trying to build something that would make her want to make our marriage work.

I even admitted how I was feeling to her on Monday.

Sigh.


... .

Before that I was feeling angry. She now tells me she didn't cut contact with the guy on my terms, but on her own.

What the heck? Well I didn't agree to have a marriage on HER terms, which apparently are that she can ___ any guy she wants to any time she wants to, and ignore my feelings and opinion on the matter.

I suppose I could claim the same 'right' from her, but it is irrelevant to me. It is against my personal belief of what a marriage or relationship is to do that to her. And further, I start a new relationship now, out of respect for the hypothetical person I'd be starting a relationship with! Anybody worth getting involved with wouldn't knowingly/willingly choose a guy who is in the midst/beginning of a divorce or near-divorce! And I won't choose to inflict that on anybody either!

[Cat Familiar]

What the heck? Well I didn't agree to have a marriage on HER terms, which apparently are that she can ___ any guy she wants to any time she wants to, and ignore my feelings and opinion on the matter.

I suppose I could claim the same 'right' from her, but it is irrelevant to me. It is against my personal belief of what a marriage or relationship is to do that to her. And further, I start a new relationship now, out of respect for the hypothetical person I'd be starting a relationship with! Anybody worth getting involved with wouldn't knowingly/willingly choose a guy who is in the midst/beginning of a divorce or near-divorce! And I won't choose to inflict that on anybody either!

We can agree to disagree, but my stance against polyamory is not from a moral or ethical point of view. It's just that it seems like herding cats. It's hard to get two people on the same page, not to mention four or more.

You've mentioned that there are closeted polyamorous relationships that work. I suppose there are. Just recently I heard talk of questionable parentage of several twenty-something kids in our small town and the former lifestyle of their parents. Note that I say "former."

I think that some people hold their sexual freedom as an ideal, one that becomes more important than their commitment to their marriage partner. I sure experienced this firsthand from my ex-husband.

If all parties are not on the same page, polyamory just becomes a fancy word to justify cheating IMHO.

[vortex of confusion]

Partly 'cuz I was too busy trying to make the best of a stressful holiday season by NOT bringing up unnecessary conflict with my wife. Not that my excuses matter much, or change what I'm finding when I do feel.

There are times when it is necessary to find ways to keep things peaceful. I come here and post all kinds of conflicting stuff but the reality is that in real life my goal is to keep things as peaceful as possible. I think that is an admirable goal while trying to sort stuff out in your heart and in your mind. It is messy stuff.

Sending you a great big hug! 

Having had some experience with the poly stuff, I think you are on the right track. Like you, I am not opposed to it as long as both parties take into account the feelings of the other person. There is a big difference between finding ONE person that your spouse is okay with and having some fun on the side versus deliberately doing stuff with somebody that your spouse is not okay with.

I know it is a huge kick in the gut when a spouse leads you to believe one thing and then does another. The times that my spouse said he was just friends with somebody only to find out that they were having racy conversations and talking about the stuff that they would do. I never understood why or how another person could deliberately mislead another. I have to keep reminding myself that it is due to the illness.

Have you made any progress figuring out what your line in the sand is? I have yet to figure mine out because those icky feelings keep getting in the way of me having any kind of clarity.

[Grey Kitty]

@Cat, my stance on polyamoury is practical as well. I stand by my personal experience--I spent about a year in r/s with two women, loved them both, and found that it worked for me. That one of those r/s failed, and the other is on the rocks right now doesn't mean that polyamoury is unworkable--just that one relationship had problems I couldn't surmount... .and the other... .well it is this topic!

I think that some people hold their sexual freedom as an ideal, one that becomes more important than their commitment to their marriage partner. I sure experienced this firsthand from my ex-husband.

Yup, my wife is kinda going there. She mostly cannot consider that I have a right to consent on who is involved with my marriage... .and see that as a separate issue from me controlling her.

If all parties are not on the same page, polyamory just becomes a fancy word to justify cheating IMHO.

Yes, and the guy she cheated with seems to be one of them. Have I mentioned I don't trust him as far as I can throw him a dozen times yet? 

Have you made any progress figuring out what your line in the sand is? I have yet to figure mine out because those icky feelings keep getting in the way of me having any kind of clarity.

I had my line in the sand. No contact with this guy. (W/o my consent, which I cannot imagine granting!) She has announced that she intends to cross it. This is the source of my What the heck? feelings.

I think that those icky feelings are the ones that point you toward where your line in the sand needs to be. Stuffing them makes it hard to find clarity.

Thanks for the   Here's one back. 

[bobcat2014]

Greykitty,

I hope you can be openminded with my response to your situation. IF you are set of making this work out with your wife, you need to talk with the GUY and explain to him your level of commitment. Tell HIM to leave your wife alone or things will happen. You will see how much this guy is into your wife when he is on the radar screen. This works and reinforces your commitment to your wife, showing you will fight for her if need be. Personally I hope you give him a beatdown for screwing around with your wife.

[MissyM]

Like you, I am not opposed to it as long as both parties take into account the feelings of the other person.

Both of my husbands came from polygamous cultures and had ancestors that were polygamous.  There is supposed to be "equality" in these relationships but that never really panned out.  I have yet to meet a person IRL that is happy in these kinds of relationships long term.  Is it possible, maybe but human nature is not to be equally in love with people.  Therefore someone is alway getting slighted and jealousy happens.  I cannot imagine throwing BPD into that kind of an emotionally charged situation.

That is just my view based on my experiences, I haven't ever had this kind of a relationship and am not so inclined.

[Grey Kitty]

Bobcat, If I didn't have prior experience, I'd be a lot more openminded... .

talk with the GUY and explain to him your level of commitment. Tell HIM to leave your wife alone or things will happen.

I did talk to him. Before my wife had sex with him. He clearly told me that he isn't going to let my lack of consent stop him from having sex with my wife. (He also tried to give me some crap about this being his ethical principles that made him do this. My brain cannot hold that sort of new-agey-crud long enough to even remember how he tried to say that part!)

And I'm not the sort of guy to beat anybody up physically... .even if he wasn't 3000 miles away right now. ('Tho I'll join you in hoping somebody else does it to him   )

My takeaway is that his version of morals and ethics are way below a standard I would call human, and I want NOTHING to do with him ever again. If I end up with him approaching me, I'd probably try to calmly say I never want to see or hear anything from him again, and leave.

My wife might take it as reinforcement of my commitment to her. She also might take it as reinforcement of my desire to control her. Either way it isn't worth interacting with him.

[formflier]

 

Something to consider... .

In some states there is a legal avenue to go after the guy outside the marriage that is doing the cheating...

You'd have to chat with a lawyer to see if that applies.

Roll with me here... .this is not a well developed thought... .

If you want to send your wife "staying" signals... .if most women want to be "chased"... want to be "pursued"... is there something there that sends her a signal... .and practically tells the guy to keep hands off.

Could this practically "force" your wife to make a choice.

You fight for her... .your decision is to stay.  Because of a legal structure she would have to violate that to go back to him... .or make a decision to divorce and remove your ability for the legal structure.

As I think about your situation... .I would hope that your wife's unhappiness isn't solved by her getting you to make a decision to end the marriage... .because she is afraid to make that decision.

I'm going to hit post... .but not sure if this is good thinking... .or the wackiest thing to ever come out of my head... .

[Grey Kitty]

It's not like I'm ignoring your latest advice here... .but I did anyway 

I hit my limit somewhere around yesterday or today, and today I called my wife, and had a controlled blow-up. As in did express some anger. (My normal style)

My first issue was that she is already planning a trip to visit a friend (Yes, male, No, not one she flirts with. Well much. Err. Yet. She has always related to him like a brother) to help him through some back surgery. This would sound reasonable. But she's finally just settled down near enough to do MC with me, and now she's running off away again.

The issue: She's making our marriage a low priority, and a friend's back surgery far higher.

Which wouldn't be a big deal if our marriage wasn't in a full-blown crisis. Which it is. I hadn't really been in touch with how I feel about her statement that she would be seeing the guy she cheated with as a "friend" again. Now that I'm in touch with it, I've found anger, hurt, and grieving the loss of a marriage all over again.

So I brought that up too. She'd kinda dropped a bomb over the holidays with that, and I'd already turned off any explosions due to other family dramas. Delayed reaction on my part.

Good: I communicated that this matters to me. And also that I'm not rolling over. I also ended on the request that she separate the issue of the guy she cheated with from all the old power/control/whatever battles between us that she's feeling resentful over and can't go back to, etc., etc. Dunno if she can or not.

We ended on a civil note, with her not sure she could be in a r/s with me.

Better: I'm not pretending all is good and loving with no problems hidden underneath. That was eating me up last time I saw her.

Delayed reaction What the heck: She was talking about not being able to deal with my anger and hurt. OVER HER CHEATING. The incredulity of this situation didn't hit me 'till later. At least I don't think I apologized for it.

[formflier]

 

If she was asked to write out a definition of cheating... .what do you think she would write.

What do you think you would write.

I'm trying to imagine how close those two are... .or how far apart.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[KateCat]

If she was asked to write out a definition of cheating... .what do you think she would write.

What do you think you would write.

That's brilliant.

[Grey Kitty]

Well... .as far as cheating goes. She doesn't like it when I use the word. Somehow because she TOLD me she was going to have sex with the guy before she did it, she doesn't think the word cheating quite fits, and gets upset when I use it.

A while ago I said something about "The guy you ___ed after I was weeping and begging you not to do it." instead of "The guy you cheated with."

I think she doesn't like the word because it paints her clearly in the wrong, but she complains that the definition doesn't fit. The alternative I gave is completely accurate, getting around her official objection.   She didn't comment on my new 'word'.

She has at a couple times admitted that when she did it, she acted against her own moral code. Both to me and to a few other people.

Her actions have consequences. I don't want a marriage where the consequence of her action is that I stuff my feelings. She gets to deal with my difficult feelings, if she wants to deal with me. I've been coping with her difficult feelings for a loong time already.

[formflier]

 

So... get her to write out her moral code... .

You write out yours... .

That would be interesting and probably a good tool for MC.

IMO... .it was cheating... she knows it.

[formflier]

 

Maybe even more interesting... .

Get her to write out what she thinks her choices are in the r/s... and what your choices are... .

Same for you.  Well... I already know yours... .but... you get where I'm going

[KateCat]

Get her to write out what she thinks her choices are in the r/s... and what your choices are... .

Brilliant. . . . . Perhaps your wife is a person whose actions have not had many consequences for her to date.

[patientandclear]

A while ago I said something about "The guy you ___ed after I was weeping and begging you not to do it." instead of "The guy you cheated with."

I think she doesn't like the word because it paints her clearly in the wrong, but she complains that the definition doesn't fit. The alternative I gave is completely accurate, getting around her official objection.   She didn't comment on my new 'word'.

I love this. Good for you.

[Grey Kitty]

  Thanks, P&C! It felt good to me when I said it.

Perhaps your wife is a person whose actions have not had many consequences for her to date.

I've spent a decade mostly trying to not give her consequences. I'm kinda done with that.

If she is staying in contact or resuming contact, or planning to resume contact with this guy she cheated... .I feel hurt and betrayed. I cannot escape those feelings. I can try to stuff them, but they keep coming back. Along with some anger or resentment if I try it. My feelings are a natural consequence of her action.

Being clear with her about these consequences feels right to me.

I'm not really in a place where asking her to write out and compare choices or values feels appropriate. Especially if it goes off in an abstract direction--we just get more entrenched in the conflict if we aim for higher abstract values. We do better when applying values to specific concrete choices, although we still have conflicts. (obviously)

I'm also working very hard NOT to be too involved in her choices. Trying to break my side of 20 years of enmeshed history. So I'm not looking for 'solutions' that involve me telling her what to do. Instead I'm trying to tell her things I'm doing, and ask for things I want.

[sweetheart]

"I'm also working very hard NOT to be too involved in her choices. Trying to break my side of 20 years of enmeshed history. So I'm not looking for 'solutions' that involve me telling her what to do. Instead I'm trying to tell her things I'm doing, and ask for things I want."

... .except that she's not listening, she is paying lip service to you talking about how you feel, but her actions are saying otherwise.

KateCat makes a valid point in that it would seem like your wife does not know much about consequences. Her responses throughout this situation have been to carry on doing what she likes because I think that she believes you will continue to tolerate whatever she does.

I think what has been the steepest learning curve in my marriage to date is that I have often carried on using what I thought were flexible emotional boundaries when in fact my they were still maladaptive boundaries influenced by years of enmeshment and emotional abuse.

It might have to be your actions not your words that eventually help your wife to hear what you are saying and precipitate change for both of you.

[KateCat]

It might have to be your actions not your words that eventually help your wife to hear what you are saying and precipitate change for both of you.

This sounds pretty savvy to me.

Grey Kitty, have you ever encountered the term "semantic aphasia" in your online explorations? I'm not sure if this is a theoretical postulate that has fallen by the historical wayside or not. (It certainly seems too harsh, in my lay opinion, for the ethos of this forum, but it may be a bit in line with M. Scott Peck's ideas regarding "people of the lie." Maybe.) At any rate, the term has apparently been used to characterize people with a certain type of psychopathy. It is said that these people fail in some profound way to understand the meaning of words.

That might sound a bit absurd as a way to think of your wife, but it seems that she struggles to define a number of important terms. If she didn't, wouldn't she be able to answer the questions formflier proposes?

This leads me to wonder even if your wife is truly a practitioner of polyamory, as most of its adherents define it. What if she can't, in fact, define her values?

I guess this is all coming down to you and your values.

[formflier]

This leads me to wonder even if your wife is truly a practitioner of polyamory, as most of its adherents define it. What if she can't, in fact, define her values? 

Which is why I'm fan of having her write down... .and define her values.  Even if that is "for that moment"...

If she can't do it... or refuses... .honestly... to me... .that is a bigger deal than the cheating... .and might lend me to think more along Katecat's line of thougt

[KateCat]

Isn't your wife a writer?

For me, this raises some scary thoughts.

[vortex of confusion]

This leads me to wonder even if your wife is truly a practitioner of polyamory, as most of its adherents define it. What if she can't, in fact, define her values? 

Which is why I'm fan of having her write down... .and define her values.  Even if that is "for that moment"...

If she can't do it... or refuses... .honestly... to me... .that is a bigger deal than the cheating... .and might lend me to think more along Katecat's line of thougt

I am curious about this line of thinking. What is the rationale behind writing down and defining her values? I think I know but I am in a situation where my husband could probably write a book about the stuff as he is a philosopher and was even a monk for a while. He has read and studied and written all about philosophy and religion and ethics. At the end of the day, there is a huge disconnect. My husband and I have agreed on a few things verbally and in writing. That means nothing because the actions do not align and trying to hold him to his own values feels like a lost cause and things spiral into this, not sure how to describe it, but it is what feels like intellectual idiocy and things become more and more abstract and less and less grounded and is therefore completely unproductive.

[formflier]

Isn't your wife a writer?

For me, this raises some scary thoughts.

Grey,

Is there a history of writing stuff down?

I would like to get back to that in my r/s... .but I realize that I'm the one that took a good thing... .writing down agreements... .and messing it up.

This was "pre BPD knowledge".  Anyway... .I used the writing in a very invalidating way.  I proved myself right... .her wrong... .it was satisfying at the moment.  But... .no surprise... .she quit doing it.

In the future... .I hope to get to the point of here is what was written... here is what happen... .and gently look for explanation... .or nuance in the two things.  Vice going at it in a contractual way...

[formflier]

  That means nothing because the actions do not align and trying to hold him to his own values feels like a lost cause and things spiral into this, not sure how to describe it, but it is what feels like intellectual idiocy and things become more and more abstract and less and less grounded and is therefore completely unproductive.

So... .the key is to get them... .or anyone... to put down the value... .in a simple form.

I value my marriage vows... .therefore I will not cheat... (as an example)

Then... .connect the value system to the action.  Have them do this... .not you.

Most likely it will result in some bizarre thinking and explanations... .we don't fix their thinking... .but we also don't say "it makes sense... " when it doesn't.

"Fixing this"... .is up to them and a T... .or P... .

Some things may come off as eccentric and let them be that way. 

Vortex,

In your situation... .I'm not seeing you being ok with "letting them be... ."  So... somehow... .we need to make sure that we keep marching in the right direction.

Realizing it won't be overnight... .and might not ever be "Fixed"... .but "way better... ."

Thoughts?  Make sense?

[KateCat]

What is the rationale behind writing down and defining her values?

My thought is that it would only be useful in the event that a partner had been acting under the mistaken belief that shared values were understood in the relationship. Just as a heads-up to that partner.

[formflier]

My thought is that it would only be useful in the event that a partner had been acting under the mistaken belief that shared values were understood in the relationship. Just as a heads-up to that partner.

Yes... .very useful for this purpose.  If you try to use it for the purpose of "proving" to the pwBPD that they are inconsistent... the writing things down most likely won't last for long.

However... .still useful for the "non" to know that there core values... .or what they say are core values swing wildly.

[vortex of confusion]

So... .the key is to get them... .or anyone... to put down the value... .in a simple form.

I value my marriage vows... .therefore I will not cheat... (as an example)

That makes sense. I am thinking of situations where I think the value is clear but the actions do not align. I think it may be a case that is similar to what GK is experiencing where the partner will express a value but then redefine things to fit his/her own agenda. Then it becomes a mind mess whereby we get caught up in defining and redefining terms that, to the average person, would seem obvious.

In your situation... .I'm not seeing you being ok with "letting them be... ."  So... somehow... .we need to make sure that we keep marching in the right direction.

Hmmm, I think I could let them be if I was clear on what they even are. That is part of the problem. I don't know what I am "letting be" as there doesn't seem to be any kind of agreement on what the values are. I am at a point where I am not even sure if we have any shared values. We can verbally agree and even agree in writing but that is not carried out with action. I guess the example that comes to mind is that one day he says he is bisexual and the next day he isn't. It probably wasn't quite that extreme but that is the way it felt on my end. I feel like I am moving in the right direction because I am trying to redefine my values for myself. I think that over the years, some of my values got really skewed because that is what needed to happen in order for me to find any kind of peace within our marriage.

Realizing it won't be overnight... .and might not ever be "Fixed"... .but "way better... ."

I have no expectation of anything ever being fixed. I am wanting to find a place where my husband and I can agree on what the values are and then have BOTH of us act accordingly. I know that some of my actions go against my own values and I don't like that at all. So, I need to figure out how to get back to the place where my values and my actions are in alignment.

And, I would like a little less uncertainty regarding what it is that my husband values. He can say and write whatever he wants but I have yet to find a way to hold him to that. When I have tried to bring up some of this stuff, he took it as me picking on his religion or telling him NOT to go to church. The reality is that I was trying to hold up the standards/values that he has talked about and claimed to have for years so that he could make the connection that there was a huge disconnect between his actions and his supposed values. For example, he has repeatedly stated that marriage is his vocation and that the best gift he can give the kids is to love their mother. He has some really awesome things that he says and tells people. In theory, he looks and talks like the perfect father and husband. The reality is so very different.

[sweetheart]

Sorry guys I just don't agree here because gk's wife's actions are the real indicators of where she is at emotionally and where perhaps she wants to be. This would be true for us all, no matter what comes out of our mouths. I'm with

Like vortex said her h can write down insightful expanses of philosophical prose but he does not then apply that to his own emotional experience of the world. I could do the same, I could also write what I think you wanted to read if I was so inclined.

Remember gk wife does not believe she cheated, just that she knew gk didn't want her to persue an intimate relationship with the guy. Technically she didn't cheat she just didn't respect gk's wishes. This is where the fault line lies for them both and no amount of talking to date and I suspect writing is going to change this disjuncture between them.

Unless gk's wife is going to do a u turn regarding her relationship with this other guy and accept gk's conditions around this in the future ( and any other relationships ) there is an impasse from which her recent actions and plans would suggest she is not coming out from behind.

All that said if she can commit to MC and explore the relationship as a whole who knows... .

[formflier]

 

One other benefit to writing is it "slows things down... ."  They can ponder their words.

When pwBPD get cranked up the stuff just flows from their mouth.

Back when I accepted email and text rages from my wife... .I could tell she was dysregulating... .because of lack of punctuation and spelling... .

[sweetheart]

I agree ff writing can slow things down but it does not sound like this is the issue here. There is also communication but not agreement around core values, expectations and outcomes.

[Grey Kitty]

So... .the key is to get them... .or anyone... to put down the value... .in a simple form.

I value my marriage vows... .therefore I will not cheat... (as an example)

That makes sense. I am thinking of situations where I think the value is clear but the actions do not align. I think it may be a case that is similar to what GK is experiencing where the partner will express a value but then redefine things to fit his/her own agenda. Then it becomes a mind mess whereby we get caught up in defining and redefining terms that, to the average person, would seem obvious.

VOC, I think you just nailed why I don't even want to have this sort of discussion with my wife.

In a couple conversations with her, I heard her say clearly something about me out-logicing her. I can't remember the exact words... .my memory of her words plus my interpretation of the parts I don't think she's being self-aware of is this:

"You've used logic to point out that my actions don't match my expressed values, and your values. Using logic like this isn't fair to my feelings. I want to keep doing those actions without having consequences from you. You aren't being fair when you use logic on me like this."



I can make a lot more sense of the world if I look at actions as a way to express values, and try to live such that the values my actions express are ones which are important to me.

If my wife's actions don't match the values she's expressing... .I'm not going to pay much attention to her statements of values.

Her actions were clear about not valuing my consent and my feelings in our marriage regarding cheating with this guy.

If I'm going to repair my marriage with her, it can take two paths:

1. She changes her behavior.

2. I accept that this behavior will be an ongoing part of our marriage.

Path #2 isn't working for me. I keep getting hurt badly when it happens.

I don't know that she is willing to take path #1, or that she can convince me she's on it.

[Rapt Reader]

*Mod*

This thread has reached its post limit, and has been closed. The conversation continues here: New Phase, New Point (Part 8).