Is it possible to try to set relationship goals?

[MissyM]

His first sponsor wasn't really available and didn't really hold him accountable. I am seeing the same pattern start to evolve with his current sponsor. I don't know if it because of my husband or if it is because of the sponsor. I tend to think it is my husband's lack of motivation. His excuses for not talking to his sponsor are that his sponsor is unavailable, blah, blah, blah. His sponsor can't hold him accountable for anything if he isn't even talking to him.

Good sponsors fire sponsees if they refuse to do the work and/or check in.  It is possible that his sponsor has said not to call him unless he has done ___________. 

Here are the things that really irk me:

-Him playing his computer games.

-Him talking in circles.

-Him not following through.

-Him putting himself ahead of everyone else.

So here is my input:

1. We have been through this, sort of.  I expressed to my dBPDh that this felt like another addiction/compulsion.  I told him I would appreciate him not playing around me and the kids, if he could limit the amount of time to 30 minutes a day or not do it at all around us.  I told him I liked it when we were all engaged together and present as a family.  He got upset at first and then discussed it with his sponsor, amazingly enough his sponsor agreed.

2.  Talking in circles, that isn't really something you can stop except to end conversations when they are going nowhere.  That would be your boundary, walking away.

3.  Him not following through, there would need to be specific things that you would request this on.

4.  Him putting himself before everyone else.  Hmm, I have put that in a different way.  I have said that I want our children to come first and that I want us to spend more time together.  Those are things I want, maybe you would feel more comfortable asking to put the children first?  Sometimes my dBPDh forgets and gets wrapped up in himself, that is to be expected because he grew up in an every man for himself household.  If I try to bring him back in lovingly it seems to go a lot better than when I hit him over the head (trust me I have done a lot of that kind of behavior).

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

I do not think it is the vague pot calling the kettle vague. I am bothered by his lack of follow through across the board whether it be talking to his sponsor or stacking up the dishes. The problem is that when I have tried to identify specific behaviors I am told that I am trying to be controlling or that I am trying to manage him and that I don't have any right to do those things.

Your husband is err... .not the most reliable person to identify controlling behavior and report it correctly.

I've been told that I'm being controlling too, and it doesn't always mean I *AM* being controlling. It was one of my wife's best techniques to control me--accusing me of being controlling.

Next time something comes up like that, listen to what he says... .and decide for yourself whether it seems true to you or not. If it does ring true, then back off. If it doesn't ring true... .think about it, and look for the right communication tools to address the issue.

[Cat Familiar]

Something that occurs to me, Vortex, is to place a boundary on participating as a full adult in your home. It sounds like you are so overwhelmed by having to do everything while he behaves like your fifth child. I guess it comes down to making a list of day-to-day activities that you must do and figuring out which ones he could participate in more than he currently does.

After getting so burned out about my husband expecting me to make dinner every night, particularly when I've been doing household chores all day while he watches movies and ball games, I finally went on strike (not that you could do that because of your children). And he is actually making an effort to do some of the cooking now, and asking if I need help when I'm chopping vegetables, which he never did previously.

He would sit down with a magazine and a glass of wine while I made dinner, never thinking that I might want a break too. But now he unloads the dishwasher sometimes in the morning and is making an effort to put his dishes inside instead of leaving them on the counter. I really do appreciate the effort.

So perhaps there's some ways that you could agree upon where he could help you more with the kids. I think that could alleviate a lot of the burnout you seem to be experiencing now.

[braveSun]

I don't want to track the specifics of his recovery as much I want to know whether or not he is talking to his sponsor. When I ask about whether or not he has talked to his sponsor, I get vague responses that are full of excuses.

I am bothered by his lack of follow through across the board whether it be talking to his sponsor or stacking up the dishes.

The problem is that when I have tried to identify specific behaviors I am told that I am trying to be controlling or that I am trying to manage him and that I don't have any right to do those things. 

Vortex, I'm sorry that you are going through this.   

It looks to me that you could be having issues with 'being safe in the relationship', when you see that there is 'possible deceit' going on. It's a common experience among partners of SAs. I'm not familiar with 12 steps groups for partners of SAs, but with the school of thinking which supports the approach that partners are susceptible to experience PSTD from being exposed to repeated infidelity and/or staggered discovery. (POSArc).

I understand that there is a fundamental trust in all primary human relationships, and that if that trust is threaten, we may enter into a state of 'freeze, fight or flight' involuntarily.

  His sexual impulsivity is something that happens within him and doesn't have as big of an impact on me as things like lack of honesty or lack of being straight forward. 

If you do find that there are lies being served at you on a regular basis, than I would want to set a strong boundary around honesty in the relationship.



My SO has a dxSA, and has undertaken SA therapy for something like 6 months before she got tested and found out about her BPD. I was the one who insisted she sees a SA therapist first because of how this affected me. The SA T will work with the SA to help facing the discrepancy between his/her values and behaviors. And will sensitize the SA on how this behavior affect the self-esteem of the partner. This kind of treatment is bringing 100% focus on accountability and can be very structured.

At some point, for a pwBPD, SA therapy is not enough to uncover the underlying issues. And the pain the SA might come into contact with himself might intesify. It's not uncommon to find a lot of avoidance in the process. I had to set up my non-negociable boundaries in order to re-establish my personal sense of safety. It's a tough thing to do, but I am glad I have done this. Boundaries are different for every persons, so it took a bit of time to identify what is a non-negociable and what are the consequences. I had a lot of fears involved with that naturally.

One important thing I learned is that you don't have to have only one consequence, like 'ending the relationship'. But you have to have relevant consequences. It's not uncommon for partners to have some sort of TS as a part of this process.   

I also sought a solid support network of people who could understand my 'experience' for myself. Sexual/emotional betrayal is very tough on a partner's self esteem, no matter the condition of the person who has it.

There is therapeutic support also available for partners of SA. For me it helped greatly to find traction in my job to get my boundaries clearer and to get more grounded in my sense of self.

[MissyM]

I was the one who insisted she sees a SA therapist first because of how this affected me. The SA T will work with the SA to help facing the discrepancy between his/her values and behaviors. And will sensitize the SA on how this behavior affect the self-esteem of the partner. This kind of treatment is bringing 100% focus on accountability and can be very structured.

At some point, for a pwBPD, SA therapy is not enough to uncover the underlying issues. And the pain the SA might come into contact with himself might intesify. It's not uncommon to find a lot of avoidance in the process. I had to set up my non-negociable boundaries in order to re-establish my personal sense of safety. It's a tough thing to do, but I am glad I have done this. Boundaries are different for every persons, so it took a bit of time to identify what is a non-negociable and what are the consequences. I had a lot of fears involved with that naturally.

One important thing I learned is that you don't have to have only one consequence, like 'ending the relationship'. But you have to have relevant consequences. It's not uncommon for partners to have some sort of TS as a part of this process.   

I also sought a solid support network of people who could understand my 'experience' for myself. Sexual/emotional betrayal is very tough on a partner's self esteem, no matter the condition of the person who has it.

There is therapeutic support also available for partners of SA. For me it helped greatly to find traction in my job to get my boundaries clearer and to get more grounded in my sense of self.

Welcome!  Sounds like some of our path has been the same.  I attend therapy with a CSAT, group therapy for spouses with a CSAT and attend COSA.  All of these things have been beneficial and laying out my non-negotiables was very empowering to me, also.  My dBPDh was diagnosed after a couple of years in therapy for SA with BPD.  It has been a long and winding road.  Always interested in hearing others stories.

Vortex, hope things are going a bit better tonight!

[braveSun]

Welcome!  Sounds like some of our path has been the same.  I attend therapy with a CSAT, group therapy for spouses with a CSAT and attend COSA.  All of these things have been beneficial and laying out my non-negotiables was very empowering to me, also.  My dBPDh was diagnosed after a couple of years in therapy for SA with BPD.  It has been a long and winding road.  Always interested in hearing others stories.

Wow! MissyM Thank you! It's great to hear that. I too, am very interested in finding people affected by the crossover of these two conditions.

I am with you about the long and winding road... . 

             

     

[Notwendy]

Vortex, I understand your frustration. I don't think it is possible for me to have mutual relationship goals, because this is not something we are capable of doing as a couple. Sure, we agree on basic values, goals for the kids. We can decide where to go for dinner or what movie to see, a basic budget and so on, but something that goes into deep mutuality evades me as much as I would wish for it.

I was raised in a chaotic and confusing household with a BPD mom who did everything in the book- raging, self harm, addictions, eating disorder, and who can also be charming, and intelligent. My codependent dad adored her. We were told that we- her kids- were the reason for her outburts and if we were good enough, mommy wouldn't have to be like that. I knew she was dysfunctional, but that made it impossible to recognize subtler forms of relationship dysfunction. I had no idea what BPD was until later when I discovered information about it and saw that she fit everything to a T. My usually calm and competent H is nothing like her, so I didn't recognize that the out of the blue rages, silent treatment, circular speech, verbal abuse, and rage cycling were his issue, not mine, because unlike my mother whose behavior was so bizarre most of the time, my H was just wonderful to everyone unless he was mad at me and only with me.

Furthermore, I had been raised to believe it was my fault and I should fix it.

My H is the main provider, and he's excellent at his job, for which I am grateful. I never expected a 50-50 split of home duties, but even the occasional request to do anything- watch the kids for a while, help with the dishes, resulted in either rage, verbal abuse, or silent treatment for days. Trying to talk about it led nowhere. It was also just with me. Everyone adores him. So, like you, I ended up raising the kids with little physical help, and no emotional support. If I needed a break, I would hire a sitter before I asked him. Fortunately I was able to do that. Eventually, I burned out. I think at that point he came to some realization that things had gone too far. He has made some changes, thankfully, and after years of refusing marital T, ( I had been going for a while on my own by then) he agreed- although I think it is on the premise that I have a problem, not him.

I understand your response to people telling you not to be controlling. I was shocked when in T, the therapist put the focus on me. I thought that let him off the hook. I was willing to work on what part I had in it, but it takes two. Why doesn't he get a label too? I was already reading marriage books, going to T, walking on eggshells and trying to keep everyone happy. Why did I have to do more and why can't I expect him to do something?

I had to do something because I had the most emotional pain. He didn't. People do a behavior, even a destructive one, because it has a payoff, and they want the payoff. Addicts use what they are addicted to because it reduces their pain, even if it causes pain for others and sometimes for them. However, unless they are as motivated to change as the people they hurt are, they are not likely to change.

Our T was wise to realize that a relationship will benefit in some way from a 12 step program when either one of the partners makes a sincere effort to work it, and she chose the one most wanting to do that. I think it was also wise for her to keep the focus on me, because I think if it wasn't- he'd be outa there. However, he does listen and takes her advice and that's good. I am grateful to her because nothing was going to change until I stopped being co-dependent and gave up the behaviors that reinforced my husbands's behaviors. Nothing was going to stop the rages until I stopped walking on eggshells to keep things comfortable and stopped letting them make me even try harder. This would not stop until I got rid of the maladaptive behaviors that I needed to survive as a kid. Rages worked well for my husband because they did for my mom. I think she felt horrible about doing them, and had all kinds of poor self image issues, but when she raged, she ruled the house and we were terrified of her.


What I really wish is for my H to do them too, not because he is addicted to a substance, but because they are also helpful for dealing with issues of shame, denial, and other maladaptive behaviors, but I know that asking him will get me nowhere. I have the right to ask him, or expect it, but that isn't going to work, no matter what. The only thing I can do to get results is to do it for me. This is why I think the steps may be more effective for the partner if they are the more motivated ones. For me, I am grateful because it helped me grow and set boundaries.