My story continues

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

As some of you might know my dBPDxbf was in therapy for 1,5 years and ended that – in agreement with his T and a new psychotherapist that had an intake with him, but determined he was not ready to get into psychotherapy. I ended our r/s end of October because I realized what it was, was not good enough for me. I have enough issues (feeling extremely lonely/unloved and strong abandonment fears) that I have to take care of. I would probably benefit from a mentally stable person. I went to a T about 12 times in the past 6 months and as of this week, I am getting into a longer, more intensive weekly psychotherapy program.

We tried some contact for a while but it didn’t really work right after the break-up. We were in NC for 1 month, which I broke last Sunday. I had a painful dating experience, a lonely Christmas break, my family was fighting over Christmas… long story short I felt horrible for a few days, even suicidal. We had a few phone conversations and I was at the verge of going to him to sleep there. I was of course very understanding of these types of feelings and was able to cheer me up a little. We did not sleep together, I realized it was a stupid thing to do.

Yesterday we met for drinks. It was good. He was really nervous, we talked a lot about how we had experienced our r/s, the break-up and the weeks after. He even said: “I have come to realize that we were really a good match mentally and physically, but on an emotional level it didn’t work out at all.”

He managed to get his own business and is setting this up right now. He’s even employing other people and he’s doing quite good. He said he felt happy for the first time in a few months, and immediately after that: “When I feel that I hear a voice saying “It can’t be true this is not right this can’t be true you don’t deserve it”. That’s how it works in my head.” Regarding me, he was balancing between sadness of what he had lost and happiness because of the freedom he had gained. Awfully gray for a black/white person, wouldn’t you say? He even recognized and named his own self-destructive behavior as such. He saw that his behavior was a reaction to mine, even called it a ‘counter-reaction’. Realized that it was all about trust, and that I didn’t trust him anymore since he cheated, and he doesn’t trust  me enough simply because he doesn’t trust anyone.

I thought I’d be sad or anxious to see him, but I wasn’t. It was nice, I didn’t feel the urge to cry. When we hugged when I left (I didn’t stay over to sleep, woo) I did experience a love rush like I was on XTC for the first time. I can now witness the physical addiction you can have towards a person. When I got back home he texted “Thanks for the nice evening. A lot of stuff to think about…”

I have set a clear boundary: we won’t get together until after I’ve finished my psychotherapy, which will take a few more months or even years. He has a mildish version of BPD where he doesn’t self-mutilate, is able to keep a job, was seeking for help by himself. I wonder what would happen if I would get some time alone so I don’t lean on him anymore, and he get’s time alone to realize he wants to get into the next phase of recovery. He even mentioned that he was sad he wasn’t able to get further in therapy, and that he was finally slowly accepting his diagnosis. And that maybe, he would get back into therapy later on.

In the mean time I’ll go my own way – date other guys, do therapy, focus on work.

It could be the story of another recycle attempt gone bad.

It could be the story of recovery.

No one knows.

You can only connect the dots, looking backward... .

[ziniztar]

As some of you might know my dBPDxbf was in therapy for 1,5 years and ended that – in agreement with his T and a new psychotherapist that had an intake with him, but determined he was not ready to get into psychotherapy. I ended our r/s end of October because I realized what it was, was not good enough for me. I have enough issues (feeling extremely lonely/unloved and strong abandonment fears) that I have to take care of. I would probably benefit from a mentally stable person. I went to a T about 12 times in the past 6 months and as of this week, I am getting into a longer, more intensive weekly psychotherapy program.

We tried some contact for a while but it didn’t really work right after the break-up. We were in NC for 1 month, which I broke last Sunday. I had a painful dating experience, a lonely Christmas break, my family was fighting over Christmas… long story short I felt horrible for a few days, even suicidal. We had a few phone conversations and I was at the verge of going to him to sleep there. I was of course very understanding of these types of feelings and was able to cheer me up a little. We did not sleep together, I realized it was a stupid thing to do.

Yesterday we met for drinks. It was good. He was really nervous, we talked a lot about how we had experienced our r/s, the break-up and the weeks after. He even said: “I have come to realize that we were really a good match mentally and physically, but on an emotional level it didn’t work out at all.”

He managed to get his own business and is setting this up right now. He’s even employing other people and he’s doing quite good. He said he felt happy for the first time in a few months, and immediately after that: “When I feel that I hear a voice saying “It can’t be true this is not right this can’t be true you don’t deserve it”. That’s how it works in my head.” Regarding me, he was balancing between sadness of what he had lost and happiness because of the freedom he had gained. Awfully gray for a black/white person, wouldn’t you say? He even recognized and named his own self-destructive behavior as such. He saw that his behavior was a reaction to mine, even called it a ‘counter-reaction’. Realized that it was all about trust, and that I didn’t trust him anymore since he cheated, and he doesn’t trust  me enough simply because he doesn’t trust anyone.

I thought I’d be sad or anxious to see him, but I wasn’t. It was nice, I didn’t feel the urge to cry. When we hugged when I left (I didn’t stay over to sleep, woo) I did experience a love rush like I was on XTC for the first time. I can now witness the physical addiction you can have towards a person. When I got back home he texted “Thanks for the nice evening. A lot of stuff to think about…”

I have set a clear boundary: we won’t get together until after I’ve finished my psychotherapy, which will take a few more months or even years. He has a mildish version of BPD where he doesn’t self-mutilate, is able to keep a job, was seeking for help by himself. I wonder what would happen if I would get some time alone so I don’t lean on him anymore, and he get’s time alone to realize he wants to get into the next phase of recovery. He even mentioned that he was sad he wasn’t able to get further in therapy, and that he was finally slowly accepting his diagnosis. And that maybe, he would get back into therapy later on.

In the mean time I’ll go my own way – date other guys, do therapy, focus on work.

It could be the story of another recycle attempt gone bad.

It could be the story of recovery.

No one knows.

You can only connect the dots, looking backward... .

[patientandclear]

Hi Z. Very interesting. I relate quite a bit to your situation. My own abandonment issues too play into why it was so damaging to me to be closely connected to my uBPDex. I was showing up as my best self and he kept sort of shrugging and sometimes acting like I was the best thing since sliced bread, and sometimes, whenever things got hard or close (same thing for him), checking around to see if there was anyone else better out there. It wasn't good for me.

I still miss him a ton. It's hard being gone too. (We are in NC which is more his choice than mine, though he would undoubtedly tell you it was my choice.)

What your ex said about feeling a mixture of sadness at the loss but happiness at his freedom rings so true for me and my ex. I've come to see that freedom is actually his paramount value. He doesn't trust anyone either. He really thinks anyone who wants to be let inside his walls is a naive dupe or very ill-motivated. Even me. That has been hard for me to accept.

I don't think this is BPD light. I think this is someone who has decided he doesn't mind his behaviors and their consequences all that much and isn't super likely to adjust them. My ex found he could get most of the good stuff from me on terms of an intimate friendship without making any kind of commitment like you need to in a love r/ship, and without having sex, which freaks him out (history of sexual abuse). That's optimal for him. Not for me, as again, I would give him the best I've got, and he would not always act like he knew the significance of that for me.

Just a note to say this is tough stuff and you seem to be seeing it clearly.  

[ziniztar]

I was showing up as my best self and he kept sort of shrugging and sometimes acting like I was the best thing since sliced bread

I still miss him a ton. It's hard being gone too. (We are in NC which is more his choice than mine, though he would undoubtedly tell you it was my choice.)

Sorry to read that, I know how hard it is. And yes I recognize the ' though he would undoubtedly tell... '

He really thinks anyone who wants to be let inside his walls is a naive dupe or very ill-motivated. Even me. That has been hard for me to accept.

Yeah same goes for him. He just simply doesn't get that I would even meet with him again, that there is a part in him I actually like.

I don't think this is BPD light. I think this is someone who has decided he doesn't mind his behaviors and their consequences all that much and isn't super likely to adjust them.

In my case, he really doesn't like it, but he is determined he will always fail in whatever attempt he'll take at improving things. The only way he can be proven wrong is by accident. By time. Plus, he told me he is finally really accepting his illness and the fact that he can't stay in relationships. "But, I really, really want to have children Z", he said. He adores them, has worked with them his whole life, and he's very open about his wishes to become a father. That could become a motivation for him to push forward.

Just a note to say this is tough stuff and you seem to be seeing it clearly.  

Thanks. He told me he cried for hours with a few friends in such a way that they started crying as well. And during the course of the evening, he sometimes got watery eyes when he was telling me about how he felt about us. But he also blatantly admitted that he was using his entire 'toolbox' to get me to sleep with him.

I know he was texting with a girl that night, as well.

I hate that.

It kinda feels good not to expect anything from him. Very calm. I told him: "I think we would be great in a r/s together as long as we both don't call it a r/s". It's the expectation that comes along that kills the both of us. And I can't help but wondering: how would the dynamics change if I finished my therapy and lived completely by myself for a while? Would I not be attracted to him at all, anymore? I doubt that. Would I accept his behavior and be able to stop the dance, keep consistent boundaries etc? Stop blackmailing him emotionally (because I know I was doing that, which of course didn't help). Will his knowledge about himself, his BPD, and about how he feels about me after losing me, help him to change his behavior over time? Would the slow but gradual increase in trust result in a more solid base? So many questions that I know I can't answer now. I used to long for a particular outcome. That is gone now. It can go either way.

[patientandclear]

Yeah. I did the "relationship without calling it a relationship." It did in fact go great. I was very proud of both of us. There was non-obligatory loyalty and affection.

Until he pushed for very intense closeness and then (I think) I disappointed him slightly. To him, epically. And he then did things that hurt me a lot (he moved, started seeing someone else--skipping a few details there). And the way I dealt with that hurt after having opened myself up AGAIN and trusting him AGAIN was no longer the generous, flexible, leap of faith way I'd handled it before. It started to hurt terribly that the more I showed up creatively and listening to what he needed and not labeling and not forcing him into a box ... .The more he took advantage of that.

The interaction of our defenses just wasn't good. :/

[ziniztar]

Yeah that sounds like something that could happen between us, too.

Thanks for painting that picture. I needed that side of the coin as well, to keep a balanced view.

The only variable that is different, I guess, is that in our situation he was diagnosed a while ago and is aware of his illness. He is younger (29), and sought therapy for 2 years.

I know he reached a point where he wasn’t able to move onto the next step in recovery. It could be because he doesn’t want to do the work and finds it easier to accept his (mal)behavior and the consequences.

It could also be that he’s just not ready yet.

I found it interesting to hear that he was thinking of getting into therapy later on again.

I know he says these things to impress me. When we first got together, he said he would get back on ADHD medication. When we discussed that a few months later, he said “I only said that to impress you”. Meanwhile, we’re 12 months further down the road, and he has gotten on ADHD medication and is sticking to it. For himself, because HE is benefiting from it. So, as this has worked for me in the past as well; sometimes doing stuff because you want to impress others can actually result in you surprising yourself that you’re capable of something. I know I’ve arragned overseas studies to impress a guy how independent I was. In the end, we broke up WHILST I was there (oh the irony) but the memory that sticks is that I managed to survive by myself in a foreign country.

If he would have gone further in therapy he would have done it for me.

If he’s going on in the future, he’ll do it for himself.

Maybe to impress someone (me, or another girl), but in the end; he’s the one that is benefiting.

It won’t be driven by fear of losing someone.

I know I get in these ‘maybe it could work in the future when this and that changes’ phases when I am alone. I’ve done that with other boyfriends as well.

I don’t really know why I do that – probably because I want to get away from the pain in the present. The pain of actually being alone, right now AND possibly in the future.

When I was dating another guy that I liked, I didn’t want us to get back together. I barely wrote anything here but on the ‘building healthy new relationships and dating’ forum.

Now that guy (read: option) is gone, I decided to see him again and start doing this.

I don’t think I know how to mentally be alone...

[ziniztar]

We had a few more talks this week.

He said: “We can only see each other if we don’t have any expectations. (Read: me expecting us to get back together.) That’s when it will go wrong immediately.”

He clearly stated that he is relaxed now because he’s not in a r/s. Nothing to screw up. He can do whatever he wants. “My decisions only impact me. I need that freedom. That’s why I am relaxed.”

He did however openly admit he expected sex.

I said I don’t want to do that as it is too hard for me and I don’t think it is a wise thing if we want to become friends. “If we don’t expect anything, it should work both ways.”

He got annoyed and said I was being difficult.

When I asked how he would react if I would get a new bf: “I would hang myself in the office.”

[sarcasm]Yes that sounds like a true friendship without any expectations. [/sarcasm]

Incredible, ey? I can’t have any expectations, he however demands sex and expects me not to date other guys.

It’s his way of accepting who he is now so he doesn’t have to do the work to get better.

It’s how you said it: his way of getting the most out of me, without the hard work.

It’s why he had to quit therapy.

To me, that’s the same as someone that is (morbid) obese and screaming to the outside world that fat is beautiful.

I don’t believe anyone that is extremely overweight is happy; they just learnt themselves to be happy or unlearnt certain needs and wants, so they don’t have to deal with the shame/guilt/fear they would otherwise feel, nor with the uncomfortable feelings they need to learn to deal with, to get passed it. In a physical case it is going to the gym and staying away from food for while. In a psychological case it is allowing certain emotion to happen so you can find out it’s not all that bad and you can actually learn to manage them better.  It’s easier to just avoid those uncomfy feelings at all cost by adjusting the level you raise your bar.

Well, I don’t adjust my bar downwards.

[patientandclear]

Right on. It sounds like his theory is that nothing will go wrong (and thus nothing till be lost) if you can have no expectations. It's a great deal right?

Except it's not, because there is a kind of sharing and caring not likely to occur on either side if it can end overnight.

I interpret his statements not as inconsistent (you can't have a bf but no expectations), but as the equivalent of "I want you to be married to me, but I don't want to be married to you."

It's just not a framework for trust and for me at least, would constantly trigger my defenses.

One woman I met from here lived through a stage like this that lasted almost a year. It was abusive as well actually. I'd say she stayed because she was addicted to her BPD partner. He said it was just friends. They saw each other daily and had sex (without kissing and with him acting like it was all because she wanted it) but if she showed signs of caring, he got super angry and berated her. He kept musing about dating other women (since you know, they were not dating). She was in a lot of pain. I don't think I'd have stayed through it.

But after about a year of this he finally admitted it really was a r/s and he loves her. His distancing behaviors have really settled down. Making clear that it is all a big bundle of coping strategies, not how he "really" felt.

So ... .Maybe this is a passage to something else if you can put up with it and if your guy is unlikely to start another r/s in the meanwhile. I couldn't make it through the passage as my abuse meter would not permit it. But ... .

[ziniztar]

Hey P&C, thanks for your responses. I get why my story doesn't resonate with many visitors here so I really appreciate your input.

It's funny. It's very well possible things will work out the way you described. But even to get there, we would individually need to experience things in order to be ready for a next phase. And I know I don't want to complicate that by sex. It won't do either of us any good. Even him; he would aim to get me into bed but would probably loathe me for giving in too soon. Where his beliefs are really challenged is when I we stay in touch but I keep the boundaries I set - to protect myself, him, and us.

It's not my goal to challenge him though. I know I enjoy his company, love him, and I know I want to take care of myself. I know I can see through the coping strategies and know what he wants deep down inside but is afraid to aim for, let alone say it out loud and acknowledge it. But I also know it's not my job to smell all that and act upon it.

On top of that, I'm getting less and less convinced we need to be a couple. With my abandonment issues, it would be an intense struggle anyway - regardless of his progress or recovery.

We'll see whatever happens .

[patientandclear]

Yep. I'll be interested to see how it goes if you feel like sharing.

Your description of what you are contemplating doing with him sounds very similar to the 18 months or so I spent in close touch with my ex before a blowout a year ago and NC since. Like you said, I was acknowledging caring deeply about him and still enforced and honored boundaries to keep both of us safe. Worked super great until it became clear I was some sort of uber crutch that allows him to become passionately devoted to other women (which was less scary because of my role in his life). That was yucky.

[Grey Kitty]

  Zin!

I missed this whole episode... .and you seem to have found some peace as you've gone through this latest circuit with your guy... .I'm not sure I have anything to add about your r/s with him, and where it might go. Other than that I'm finding the concept of marriage-lite in my personal situation pretty painful to consider. 

We were in NC for 1 month, which I broke last Sunday. I had a painful dating experience, a lonely Christmas break, my family was fighting over Christmas… long story short I felt horrible for a few days, even suicidal. We had a few phone conversations and I was at the verge of going to him to sleep there. I was of course very understanding of these types of feelings and was able to cheer me up a little. We did not sleep together, I realized it was a stupid thing to do.

However, the circumstances that started this whole episode... .that speaks to me.

Recently I've got a bunch of people in my life that I've shared varying levels of my relationship troubles with. And occasionally other things, but the r/s is towering over all of them for the last few months. Two of them I could call on nearly any time I'm feeling that low, and sometimes I do.  (I refer them collectively as "Team Grey Kitty"

It took some effort on my part to build relationships like these. It took some vulnerability, asking for support. Rewinding back, I had absolutely NO idea how critical and pivotal the support I got from some of these people would be. Most of them are people who have were in my life for years, and I liked and respected them... .and somehow found a time where something shifted, and the relationship went a lot deeper.

I am unbelievably grateful for these people in my life.

... .I'm guessing you didn't have a good, SAFE friend to call last Sunday, instead of this guy.

What do you think would have happened if you had called somebody else?

[ziniztar]

... .I'm guessing you didn't have a good, SAFE friend to call last Sunday, instead of this guy.

What do you think would have happened if you had called somebody else?

You are completely right. The next question is: do I really not have those people or do I think I don't have them?

I am so completely lost when it comes to the people I can trust. I always thought I knew which type of people I could feel safe with and trust. Turns out: I'M COMPLETELY WRONG ABOUT THAT! I am evaluating all my friendships and feel extremely lost.

In the mean time we're in contact but it seems to be okay. We have the known different cities/different work schedules issue that keeps us from seeing each other too much. There really are only 2 nights a week we could meet up, so, that's a safe 'physical' boundary.

It's the strong emotional connection that is part of the enmeshedness, I know. Right now I think I could keep him as a friend, and I think I would like that. I know I would benefit from a more stable, healthy attached person and really want that for myself. I'm not sure if he can see it that way. He called me the other day and left a VM 'just wanted to hear your voice, that's all' and texted 'I miss you' in the middle of the night. The good thing is that he is aware that things will change again when we start dating. That's progress and makes it clear we can't be together if nothing dramatically changes in either his perception of the world, or mine.

Anyway. Do I have these friends that I could call?

I have a sister in law that I love and that gives me the feeling that I am always welcome.

I notice that some friends can't handle me right now - obviously these are enmeshed, co-dependant friendships as well. They need me to be the strong person that I usually pretend on the outside. But what do you do if you feel that 90% of your friendships are like that? These people don't feel safe to me anymore, but they do construct what I thought was my safety net for a long long time. Abandoning that means feeling even more alone.

I have a few ones identified that are worried about me and show some genuine interest. Some of them I just feel very disappointed in and angry at. I can see the pattern that I also feel towards my parents so I am really lost if my feelings are real or if they are just projected onto them but should be aimed at my parents, and I'm the one being unreasonable and losing potentially good friendships (that I don't see right now) over it.

In the end, if they are really good friends, they should let me be imperfect for a while.

I finally understand what my dBPDxbf meant when he kept repeating: "they wouldn't allow me to feel bad, they wouldn't allow me to feel bad", they being his family and his parents in particular. There's this basic feeling of conditional love that is ingrained in his, and in my existence.

[Grey Kitty]

Hmmm... .maybe you can help bring back a topic I started in December... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=238756.0

What it sounds like you are telling me is that you don't currently have anybody who feels safe to talk to in your network of friends and family.

Perhaps go through the list of friends and acquaintances in your head... .and look for the ones that you admire... .the ones who seem to be handling tough situations well. Try reaching out and spending time with them?

The friend I call the captain of Team Grey Kitty was a friend of both me and my wife for a few years, someone I liked and respected, and had been close with, and had some emotional intimacy already, but not THAT much. Right when my wife started cheating, I was feeling hurt betrayed, and falling apart, incredibly vulnerable, and I picked her to call first. I don't even remember exactly why. At the time I had absolutely NO CLUE that this would develop with her.

I also had very little understanding how my journey was parallel to her own that she had embarked upon only a few years earlier... .and absolutely no clue how working on this with me it would help open her up to a wonderful r/s that she was getting started in, but afraid to open up and allow it to bloom. Honestly, I still don't quite understand how supporting me the way she did helped her as much as it did. But I do know that she genuinely cares about me, and she's rock solid and there for me. It is amazing.

If it had turned out differently, I would like to hope that the universe would have taken care of me, and one of the next friends I would have called would have been there for me in an equally powerful way.

I have a few ones identified that are worried about me and show some genuine interest. Some of them I just feel very disappointed in and angry at. I can see the pattern that I also feel towards my parents so I am really lost if my feelings are real or if they are just projected onto them but should be aimed at my parents, and I'm the one being unreasonable and losing potentially good friendships (that I don't see right now) over it.

The only way to find out is to take a risk and be vulnerable with one of these friends (at a time), and see how they respond. And that is a challenge for YOU. Good luck!

You may have a perfect opportunity to deepen one of those relationships.

Or you may be in desperate need of anybody, and just going through your phone list, listening to your intuition about the people on it and hoping for the best.

[ziniztar]

You may have a perfect opportunity to deepen one of those relationships.

I realized something this week.

I started counting the people that I would say are really important friends that I want to keep in contact with.

I think I stopped counting at 25.

To me, those people all are people I have to stay in contact with. If the ones I am really attached to don't reach out to me, I feel they [childish voice] don't want to play with me anymore [/childish voice].

I then realized: because I am so easily attached to people, I have spent the majority of my adolescent life gathering new friends, which made it impossible for me to deepen those important friendships. Unhealthy attached people seem to find each other due to shared misery (sucky relationships, difficulty dating other people, or drama triangle behaviour that either complements each other or is familiar due to the lack of responsibility in our stories). It's easy as friends to feel 'safe' together whilst bashing another guy or woman for treating you the wrong way.

Now that I am moving away from that I see that some friendships really aren't that solid. They talk about 'choice of partner', but I also believe this accounts for 'choice of friends'. I used to think some people were quite boring because they were so 'correct' in behaving towards other people. Now I see that's not boring, it's good! And it's better for me to hang out with if I want to slowly lose some of those abandonment fears.

So. I narrowed the list down to 10 people that I want to focus on. I realize I probably haven't been the best friend possible to them either, but that's okay. They understand.  They are mature enough to see the stuff I am struggling with and care for me. They realize people are not peppy & perfect all the time and accept me for who I am.

In the mean time I saw dBPDxbf twice this week. He tries to kiss me / get me into bed. He keeps chanting 'friends with benefits friends with benefits' because he realizes a relationship won't work the way we are right now. I am very good at keeping this boundary because I know it won't do him nor me any good if we throw physical intimacy in the mixture.

I told him I had a date this week and he was very disappointed and a little mad. He did realize he has nothing to say about it, but he said: 'I knew that the moment you started dating I would loose you. You are a really wonderful woman and guys will realize that. You'll get attached to him and then will get afraid he will leave you. I just didn't realize it would happen this soon.' That hurts me a little bit, but I know it's not my job to make him happy. It's his.

[Grey Kitty]

Now that I am moving away from that I see that some friendships really aren't that solid.

... .

So. I narrowed the list down to 10 people that I want to focus on. I realize I probably haven't been the best friend possible to them either, but that's okay. They understand.  They are mature enough to see the stuff I am struggling with and care for me. They realize people are not peppy & perfect all the time and accept me for who I am.

Sounds like you are doing fantastic work here!

And I bet that those 10 people will notice and appreciate the new level of effort you put into the relationships too!

'I knew that the moment you started dating I would loose you. You are a really wonderful woman and guys will realize that. You'll get attached to him and then will get afraid he will leave you. I just didn't realize it would happen this soon.' That hurts me a little bit, but I know it's not my job to make him happy. It's his.

 A astoundingly amazingly stunningly awesome realization on your part!

One of m friends (The captain of Team Grey Kitty) has made me repeat this statement a few times, generally when I was in a tough place and getting lost. When I think about it, I can imagine the way she latched herself onto it and hung on for dear life when she was going through some of her own growth not all that long ago:

I can only be responsible for my own peace of mind