Transfering the children's belongings/Exchanges

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hello,

Tonight when I gave my exhNPD a duffel bag with our kids' items he got angry and wouldn't take it.  He has told me he refuses to accept "luggage" because he's "not a hotel."  While our kids have duplicates of clothes at his house, they do have some items that they want to/need to take back and forth.  I condensed them into one duffel bag, and it's a smaller child-size duffel bag.  Last time (Christmas, when the kids had things they wanted to bring), he told me he only accepted them because he was "being  nice."  Tonight he told me I could give him the bag but I wouldn't get it back.  I agreed to unpack the items and place them in his car, and told S11 I would be taking things out of his bag.  S11 said, "I want the duffel bag."  So I told my ex, well, he says he wants it so I'm going to leave it and not unpack it.  My ex told me again that I "might not get it back" when I pick up the children (this was the second or third time he told me tonight).  That time I replied ok, you can do what you want to, and I'll let my attorney know.  (In hindsight I wish I had kept quiet).  At no time did I yell.

ExhNPD wants to put those things in the children's backpacks and have them take them to school.  However, my younger one has a special stuffed animal that she has made clear to me she doesn't want to take to school.  My older has medication that my ex doesn't have at his house, that he's not supposed to bring to school.  Plus, my older child's backpack is really full and I don't see how things will fit in it, and I don't think it's right to mix clothes with school things, since he takes his backpack to each class and keeps notebooks, etc. in his backpack that he uses in class (he's getting better at organization but it's not a strength, so he keeps everything he needs in his backpack and takes it to every class, that way he doesn't forget something in his locker).  And there's no way I'm sending a gaming system to school with him.

Last time I picked up my children my ex had taken their things out of the duffel bag and small wheeled suitcase and put them into reusable grocery bags.  I asked for him to return the bag and suitcase and he didn't want to.  The children went inside to get them.  It was raining and the children's things got wet in the reusable grocery bags (including books and a laptop).

Can anyone share ideas on how they might or how they have handled this type of situation?  I don't agree with my ex, and also I feel my children should have a voice in this.  Also, my kids have instruments and music books from their weekly lessons that they bring.  And a foldable music stand since ex doesn't have one.  Am I being unrealistic when I think it's ok to bring a duffel bag?  I think it's weird to pack their things in a grocery bag, am I off base with this?

How do you keep the exchanges civil if you're not the one yelling?  Do I relent and put my kids' things in their backpacks even though they've told me they don't want to do that and I don't believe it's the best thing to do, just to get him to stop?  I feel like I've given in a lot to keep the peace and agreed to things I don't want to in our divorce and he just keeps expecting more.  Do you address this disagreement with your child (11 years old)?  Child 6?  If so, how?  Thanks.

[Ulysses]

Hello,

Tonight when I gave my exhNPD a duffel bag with our kids' items he got angry and wouldn't take it.  He has told me he refuses to accept "luggage" because he's "not a hotel."  While our kids have duplicates of clothes at his house, they do have some items that they want to/need to take back and forth.  I condensed them into one duffel bag, and it's a smaller child-size duffel bag.  Last time (Christmas, when the kids had things they wanted to bring), he told me he only accepted them because he was "being  nice."  Tonight he told me I could give him the bag but I wouldn't get it back.  I agreed to unpack the items and place them in his car, and told S11 I would be taking things out of his bag.  S11 said, "I want the duffel bag."  So I told my ex, well, he says he wants it so I'm going to leave it and not unpack it.  My ex told me again that I "might not get it back" when I pick up the children (this was the second or third time he told me tonight).  That time I replied ok, you can do what you want to, and I'll let my attorney know.  (In hindsight I wish I had kept quiet).  At no time did I yell.

ExhNPD wants to put those things in the children's backpacks and have them take them to school.  However, my younger one has a special stuffed animal that she has made clear to me she doesn't want to take to school.  My older has medication that my ex doesn't have at his house, that he's not supposed to bring to school.  Plus, my older child's backpack is really full and I don't see how things will fit in it, and I don't think it's right to mix clothes with school things, since he takes his backpack to each class and keeps notebooks, etc. in his backpack that he uses in class (he's getting better at organization but it's not a strength, so he keeps everything he needs in his backpack and takes it to every class, that way he doesn't forget something in his locker).  And there's no way I'm sending a gaming system to school with him.

Last time I picked up my children my ex had taken their things out of the duffel bag and small wheeled suitcase and put them into reusable grocery bags.  I asked for him to return the bag and suitcase and he didn't want to.  The children went inside to get them.  It was raining and the children's things got wet in the reusable grocery bags (including books and a laptop).

Can anyone share ideas on how they might or how they have handled this type of situation?  I don't agree with my ex, and also I feel my children should have a voice in this.  Also, my kids have instruments and music books from their weekly lessons that they bring.  And a foldable music stand since ex doesn't have one.  Am I being unrealistic when I think it's ok to bring a duffel bag?  I think it's weird to pack their things in a grocery bag, am I off base with this?

How do you keep the exchanges civil if you're not the one yelling?  Do I relent and put my kids' things in their backpacks even though they've told me they don't want to do that and I don't believe it's the best thing to do, just to get him to stop?  I feel like I've given in a lot to keep the peace and agreed to things I don't want to in our divorce and he just keeps expecting more.  Do you address this disagreement with your child (11 years old)?  Child 6?  If so, how?  Thanks.

[bravhart1]

Do you have a co-parent coordinator or counselor that might help mediate this?

Sounds like your ex might need to get over himself and look at what's best and makes the most common sense for the kids.

In the alternative maybe if he doesn't want to have stuff go back and forth ( because of how it looks ) then he should get duplicates of all the things the kids need and put his money out for It.

Or what if you just didn't send the needed items and let the kids "need" them and see what father of the year comes up with as a solution to "his" problem. I know it would be hard for the kids but maybe if you explained that dad doesn't seem to see the problem then he will be forced to find his solution.

It's dumb of him to make such a big deal about it, but clearly he is seeing only how the kids bringing a bag to his house looks in his mind. He's not living in reality.

[Swiggle]

So sorry you have to deal with this, they can be so difficult when you are just trying to do what is best/easiest.

First, what does your agreement look like, is there any language about items going back and forth, is there language that all items should be returned?

I apologize if I missed this but what is your parenting schedule and how do exchanges work?

[david]

Our two boys have backpacks that they are in charge of. They can put whatever they want in it and take it with them to either residence.

I had a problem with things never being returned in the beginning. I had a section in our custody agreement inserted to take care of it. It says that the children's belongings are theirs and can be transported from either residence without hindrance.

It works about 95% of the time.

"he told me he only accepted them because he was "being nice". Sounds like he was telling the truth. I guess he is going to be an ___hole from now on. My ex talks like that too. I learned to interpret what she says better now. It took a few years for me to get it. I figure it was my interpretation that was off. I don't reply to stuff like that but I have learned to interpret it in a different light. I view it as anger and I don't try to figure out the why anymore.

[Waddams]

My suggestion is to ask the doc for double scripts when they need meds and explain why.  Then one goes to mom's house, one to dad's house.  I've had my S10's docs do that for me.  I just tell them we have split custody and it's easier than having to remember to send med's back and forth.  I pay the co-pays for it all, I've never had a complaint about it from the other side.

Then as far as other stuff goes, I'd tell the kids they can take whatever they can reasonably carry between houses, but it's on them to find a way to get it to and from their mom and dad's house.  I wouldn't send them with extra duffle bags or suitcases of stuff.  I tell my S10 that his stuff at my house stays at my house.  It's not my job to provide him extra toys and what not at his mom's house.  That's her job and I pay her child support so she can do it.  Also, if there are things they take during parent swaps but can't take to school, then it might lead to them having to leave some things behind when they switch houses.  That's just how the cookie crumbles.   

It's not the greatest for the kids, but your uBPDxh is using this as another opportunity to start drama and you have a right to put at a stop to it.  The kids will adapt and will benefit from the reduced friction between their parents a lot more than being able to take more stuff between houses.

I have had issues with buying new clothes, they go to mom's, and he gets sent back in rags.  The best solution to that has been to just throw away the raggity clothes and make him wear good stuff back.  Eventually I throw away all the rags and all he's left with is good stuff at both places.  I know I shouldn't have to provide clothes like that (that's part of what my child support is for) but uPDxw is who she is, and so I do it to make sure S10 has good clothes to wear.  It's not fair, but it is what it is.  I get inexpensive stuff from Target, Kohls, Walmart, etc., or places where I can use big discount coupons on stuff that's already on sale, so it really doesn't cost me much.  It's just a solution that works for me because I can afford it, and it's easier on me than making a stink about it with uPDxw, and it ensures that S10 has good clothes no matter where he is.  S10 has even acknowledged he's figured out what I'm doing and has complained that his mom won't pay for more for him, so it's had the added effect that S10 is figuring out who really makes sure his life is good, no matter where he is.

It's definitely a challenge to figure out the best reactions when they try to start a fight over everything.  We don't want to fight over everything, and it is exhausting.  In the end it's about anger, control, and retribution for them.  It's not about a duffle bag, or suit case, or clothes.  Finding the right "pick your battles" balance is crucial to your own mental healthiness.

[livednlearned]

Hi Ulysses,

I'm sorry you have to deal with this. It's perfectly reasonable that your kids carry their stuff in a duffle bag and your ex is being high conflict in order to exert control over a situation he doesn't feel good about. My ex would not return anything that went to his house, although our exchanges did not occur at school so that made it easier. Anything that S took to his dad's, though, never came home and he began to realize that that's how it worked with N/BPDx. For Christmas one year, S got a toy from his aunt and took it to N/BPDx's house. When it was time to go, N/BPDx told him he couldn't take it. Because of the schedule, S wasn't going to see his dad for 2 weeks, so wouldn't get to play with the toy that whole time. He was in tears, trying to understand why. I validated his feelings "You really wanted that toy and feel sad, I would feel the same way." But I also didn't bail his dad out. "I don't know why he has that rule. It doesn't make sense." And then tried to help him come up with a plan for next time. "If he won't let you bring things back here, maybe it's a good idea to keep things separate. We can come up with things that you want there, and things you want here."

There are other things you could do, although while they minimize negative engagement and conflict, they don't make things easier. Like picking up the extra things from the kids at school on exchange days. Maybe the kids go see the family specialist first thing in the morning, and put their home things in a bag that you come pick up?

Or, like Waddams suggests, have duplicates of everything at both households. The gaming system will be tough because those can be expensive and kids don't necessarily have their games on two devices.

Or, maybe go to a thrift store and pick up as many cloth bags as you can, something durable you don't mind the kids leaving at their dad's.

I don't know, just brainstorming here 

The bottom line is that there is often no way to get people with PDs to do what you want, so you have to come up with what are basically time-consuming and somewhat illogical solutions. I learned to treat N/BPDx's behavior as a true real-life concrete obstacle that I had to find ways to get around. It also trained me to find allies who could help me. The family specialist/social worker at my son's school was wonderful -- as sad as it is to say this, our case was nowhere near as bad as some of the stuff they see. And telling people that you want to minimize conflict for the kids usually endears them to you because they often share the same goal.

[Ulysses]

I've read so much at this site for a few years now, and find it so helpful.  Thank you for these replies.  I had a crummy evening last night and it's so nice to be able to reach out for feedback and support.

My custody/parenting thing isn't great.  My ex is a lawyer.  My marriage counselor, therapist, and an attorney I consulted have point-blank told me that he abuses me emotionally.  My current attorney has said his emails to me are sometimes threatening.  I was in a lot of denial and even now I'm working through how I got to the point I did.  And apparently I'm still seeking validation for how I interpret/feel about some of his actions.

I think my ex lied to me after I filed for divorce.  He pounded the wall in MC and begged me to withdraw, which I didn't, and told me for months that he wanted to stay married.  My lawyer at the time sent his lawyer a letter that I wouldn't proceed with any divorce proceedings since he stated he wanted to work on the marriage.  When it was too late to get a parent evaluator (which I had originally requested), he filed a motion to get the divorce going.  My previous attorney was higher conflict than I wanted and was in my opinion inept in the courtroom.  One attorney I consulted told me it was as if I hadn't even been represented.  I truly believe the pro-tem judge knew my husband professionally, plus I watched as my ex's entire body morphed from a physically upstanding, chest out, shoulders-back 6'2" frame to a withering, slouching apologetic whimp who was praying in the courtroom before our names were called (he generally mocks religion, but goes through phases where he wants to be seen at church or something - it's hard to describe).  I decided I wanted no more of the courtroom stuff, I wasn't going to prevail, my kids were going to have a basket case for a mother, and in the end in our state we'd get about 50/50 even with all of his pornography and other stuff he's done.  I wanted to move on with my life, and came to terms with the fact that I wouldn't get a family I thought I had and had tried to work toward, and I would be apart from my children way more than I ever imagined or wanted.  It hurts, I'm extremely sad sometimes, but I'm also relieved that I'm away from him.  I'm physically healthier too, and only have earaches after my interactions with him.  

I hired a new attorney and went through mediation.  I feel I gave up a lot (I'm sure each side feels that way).  I get a little bit of maintenance, not enough to live on.  I was a SAHM for 12 years.  I don't get child support because I agreed it was more important to keep our children in their private school, since our oldest is gifted with traits of Aspergers.  Now I get a letter from his lawyer that he won't agree to pay for private school for the years they're eligible because circumstances might change.  So that's another phone call to my lawyer and for a different post I think.  I also relented on the 50/50 even though I'm torn.  I want the children to feel wanted by both of their parents and I think it's important if both can be involved in their lives.  I also think my ex is disgusting in his habits, acts in truly crazy ways sometimes, and he introduced them to his girlfriend back in August, before mediation, and I think actually back in June (not the original affair partner, another one).  Even though my D6 therapist told me it's too early for him to introduce his girlfriend, and she would tell him.  The children's therapist records can't be used in parenting decisions (was decided in court last summer, I didn't object because it was presented to me as "how it's done".

So, initially I wanted a parent evaluator but then the clock was ticking and I didn't act because I believed him when he said he loved me and wanted to stay married.  My lesson to learn.  I'm going to ask my attorney if I can still ask for one, although I don't have the money and I'm trying to focus on rebuilding my life, not fighting him.  I was recently accepted into a graduate program and would like to point my energies in that direction.

Thank you for your replies.  I feel like they show me strength that I can't always find in myself, and views of him I feel mean/guilty thinking, but that I think really are true.  I'm trying to pick my battles and give up on a lot for the sake of peace, and also to find my way around things (feels like a video game) for a solution rather than a confrontation, even if it makes more work for me.  I feel I've been doing it a lot.  For instance, D6 complained in Sept that she doesn't get enough food in her lunch from him, I talked to her about addressing this with him (after my email to him on it got a nasty reply).  She did and kept telling me he still packs the same stuff and it's not enough.  By late October she was crying when I picked her up.  Said she was hungry and had been thirsty for two days.  At that point I contacted the teacher and now I leave extra food and drink for her at school.

Ex has bought double clothes.  They're lovely (that's sarcastic).  Ex has had 6+ months to get S11 asthma medication and hasn't.  He started having wood fires and my children came back smelling like smoke.  :)idn't have any asthma medication at his place.  I told him I didn't agree with having a fire with a kid with asthma, and that he needed to at least make sure he has asthma medication.  Now it's swimming lessons, and chlorine aggravates the asthma.  So,  I sent it along.  I don't have health insurance and he hasn't given me new health insurance cards for the children so it's up to him.  I'll send another email and this time probably copy my attorney.  

I like the idea of double backpacks.  I like D6 suitcase because she can manage it herself since it has wheels.  Maybe backpacks will put his unease to rest.

As for the exchanges, they had been happening on Wed evening at church.  We don't have anything official written out about where they take place.  Only the time (Wed morning exchange but I take them to school and had been picking them up Wed afternoon to ease their transition).  Because of my part-time work schedule I couldn't take them on Wed afternoons in December.  He seems against hiring a babysitter to take the children, but willing to pay for after-school care at the school (not much cost difference).  The activity at the church is free.  He's told me D6 can go if I take her.  Then he shows up with his girlfriend and frankly I feel like it puts me in this position of either D6 doesn't get to do this healthy activity she's done for 1 1/2 years that she likes, that I believe in, or she gets to and I have to see him and his latest soul-mate.  They come back to me on Sunday evening if it's a weekend with him, otherwise I pick them up from school Friday.  We sold our house in a few weeks (talk about trauma for the children) and I currently live with family.  We only live 10 minutes apart, and my place is on his route to work.

He stood in court this summer and said his employer, "supports co-parenting."  He works over an hour away, in a different county.  I have emails from the last few months from him that say he can't pick up the kids, take D6 to speech therapy, activities, etc., because of his work schedule.  (These are all things I did when we were married, of course.)  He won't hire a babysitter to take them.  

I'm going to try to respond to some of your replies, I'm not sure how to quote in color on this, so I'll do my best here.  

Quote:  "I had a section in our custody agreement inserted to take care of it. It says that the children's belongings are theirs and can be transported from either residence without hindrance."

I like this, I'll ask my attorney.  It's probably too late.  We have an agreement from mediation but nothing's been filed with the court yet.  It was supposed to be last week but we're still working out language.  I think it's possible we might have to go back to mediation since he's now indicating he won't pay for private school until the children are done there, and I gave up child support for that.  With my small maintenance and child support I could afford an apartment before I get full-time employment.

Thank you for pointing out it's about control and anger and retribution.  I can often remember that but in the moment there are times I get very frazzled.  My sister witnessed his red-face raging last fall and told me she had no idea how I could stay so calm.  She ended up laughing athm/mocking him about something he was yelling, and that set him off even  more.  I wasn't afraid because we were on the street in front of our old house, and she was with me (I'm very short, she's not).  She said I must have been getting a lot of therapy.  That was to hear, because I've been working for some time on not reacting to him.  I just hope I'm not burying it without realizing it.

This last exchange his girlfriend and he stood so that I felt I was blocked at my car.  I couldn't walk away without one of them moving, I think.  It didn't register until much later.  The girlfriend also tries to get my S11 to go straight to the car, offers to help him carry things, etc.  He says no.  I feel like she's really cloying and I'd like her to leave him alone and not stand between me and him (physically, I mean).  I think, though, this is another thing I have to let go at this point.  I just ignore her because that's the best I can do right now.  I don't want to sound like a victim, and I don't want to end up "being mean" or crazy.  It's so hard to hold onto who I feel I am when I'm around him.  I think at this point my best option is to arrange custody exchange through school or with a babysitter so I'm not present.

Another Quote:" "he told me he only accepted them because he was "being nice". Sounds like he was telling the truth. I guess he is going to be an ___hole from now on. My ex talks like that too. I learned to interpret what she says better now. It took a few years for me to get it. I figure it was my interpretation that was off. I don't reply to stuff like that but I have learned to interpret it in a different light. I view it as anger and I don't try to figure out the why anymore."

I guess he is going to be, too.  Nothing new.    I believe my interpretation of him is off, and I'm working on why it was for so long.  Part of it is he can charm and fool people, he did that to our MC for awhile. Part of it is me (sigh).   I'm really good at not reacting now, and realizing the anger comes from inside him (MC told me it's primal rage and it happened well before I ever met him).  I still get frazzled and I try to remember that's ok to feel that way after my interactions with him, and it will get easier over time.

Quote ":)o you have a co-parent coordinator or counselor that might help mediate this?" No, I think I need one.  He was sugar sweet in court and now he's a monster again.  He has yet more aliases online and writes more pornography/erotica.  I think he would be fired if the truth came out.  He certainly would have egg on his face since his professional reputation is someone who is kind, moral, upstanding, etc.  I guess that is a part of him, but then there's this other side that is completely different.

"Sounds like your ex might need to get over himself and look at what's best and makes the most common sense for the kids."  I agree, but I'm not holding my breath.  This is so validating to hear someone else say this, not just me thinking it.

"In the alternative maybe if he doesn't want to have stuff go back and forth ( because of how it looks rolleyes) then he should get duplicates of all the things the kids need and put his money out for It."  Yes, except you can't do that for instruments and music lesson books.  I'll figure out a way, though.  Actually I think I can scan and email lesson notes to my S11.  In December I bought a copy of a music book because D6 had planned to play music for her visiting cousin at Christmas, and ex never responded when I texted and emailed, and finally called, that he had the book and D6 needed it.

"Or what if you just didn't send the needed items and let the kids "need" them and see what father of the year comes up with as a solution to "his" problem. I know it would be hard for the kids but maybe if you explained that dad doesn't seem to see the problem then he will be forced to find his solution."  Yes, except D6 has a stuffed animal she has slept with since birth and I don't have the heart to do this.  Plus I will look like the bad guy for keeping the animal "hostage" or whatever.  And I think that's what he wants with the instruments.  Music education is very important to me, I'm a musician, it's a family tradition/interest.  He doesn't support it although he told me for years he did.  He also doesn't do homework with D6 and I'm letting that go.

"It's dumb of him to make such a big deal about it, but clearly he is seeing only how the kids bringing a bag to his house looks in his mind. He's not living in reality."  Yes, I just can't see the problem of bringing a duffel bag.  It doesn't seem to be a big deal to me.  My therapist has helped me to see that he's not living in reality.  I'm so glad I changed my address to Reality, USA (or, at least, I'm on the train ride there).  It's so much more fulfilling.

Thank you again, it's nice to hear how others have dealt with this and know that some of what I'm doing is ok, and that I can keep working on finding solutions.  I think so much of it depends on my mindset and after these types of interactions I feel I can't think straight for awhile, and become filled with fear or something.  Will it help if I step away for awhile and find a way to do the exchanges without interacting with him?

[livednlearned]

My ex is also an attorney. I feel for you so much -- I think divorcing an N/BPDx attorney is an additional strain and stress that is hard to explain (although I'm sure people here can imagine). The thing that made a huge difference for me, and some days I believe is the only reason I didn't have a full-blown nervous breakdown, is that my lawyer has been amazing. I count her as a friend after 4 years of being in what felt like a constant custody battle. When I said "I can't afford to do xyz," she worked with me financially. I'll probably be paying her back for years, but she isn't charging me interest, she discounts things, tells me ways I can shave off money, and sometimes hasn't charged me. And she's competent, a very good strategic thinker, plus she has a backbone and that taught me a thing or two about what it meant to have one. And still be a lady. 

A book she recommended me that you might get something from: Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry/Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft. Lundy worked with abusers for 20 years and for some reason, that book more than any other really helped me see what I was dealing with. I think because there aren't a lot of books about N/BPD men out there, and the traits show up a bit different in men. I've read it several times and get something out of it each time I read it. It helped me identify some of the moves that my N/BPDx would use to manipulate me, because abuse can be very chameleon like in someone who is high-functioning and charming.

these types of interactions I feel I can't think straight for awhile, and become filled with fear or something.  Will it help if I step away for awhile and find a way to do the exchanges without interacting with him?

I would step away. You are changing right now, growing and getting stronger and learning healthier ways of being in the world, something that he absolutely does not want for you. Just his presence will sap your strength. Your defenses go up, stress increases, the dread eats away at you. Right now, you're learning that you deserve the right to have things be about you, a very hard transition if you have been living the opposite for years with an abuser. So the more time and effort you put into filling your cup right now, the better. One day, you're going to see your ex and will have feelings of complete and utter detachment (although anything with the kids will continue to hurt). But right now, it's time to take care of yourself so you can get to that place.

One question about the raging (if you continue to see him f2f). Are you in a state where you can record? Document everything you can. It will get easier to stand up to him after reading a book like Why Does He Do That, at least I think it will. For me, it was like throwing back the curtain to see what was going on back there. It stripped things down and made them very clear. Maybe that will happen for you and you'll get a bit pissed off, which helps when you see that something isn't right and want to fix it. You need so much strength with these people. So don't beat yourself up, ok? The last thing you need right now is down-talk, as my T calls it. That's what your ex wants -- someone doing his work while he isn't around.  

[Ulysses]

Lived and Learned, thank you for the book recommendation.  I'll look at it.  You're fortunate you found an attorney.  I think the one I have now is good, and doesn't overcharge.  She seems to have experience.  I find it's a hard line to balance between an attorney with a backbone and one who is too aggressive.

So the more time and effort you put into filling your cup right now, the better. One day, you're going to see your ex and will have feelings of complete and utter detachment (although anything with the kids will continue to hurt). But right now, it's time to take care of yourself so you can get to that place.

I have that feeling of complete detachment sometimes.  It's wonderful.  One time I was able to stay composed, happy, and walk away when he tried to engage.  He was dumbfounded.  I need to remember that and aim for it.  I don't miss him anymore, and can intellectually completely understand that he has a disorder and it isn't safe or healthy for me to be involved with him.

One question about the raging (if you continue to see him f2f). Are you in a state where you can record? Document everything you can.

I was set to videotape last night and chickened out.  I thought, "No, I don't need to.  It won't be that bad."  HA!  We can't audio record someone without their knowledge in this state.  We can video them, I believe.  Ironically it's case law from a case my ex represented when we were first married.  Made the news and everything. 

I choose to "fill my cup" whenever I can, although sometimes I still have trouble getting up and going.  It's getting better though.

Thanks for your responses.  I'm so grateful for this board.

[11yearsToGo]

I originally responded to the duffle bag post... .then I read your additional post.  My original post was before your additional info.  Due to the depth of what you're facing, I humbly withdraw my advice.  I send hugs and prayers instead and will come back only with any advice I might come up with after more consideration and this additional info on your kiddos dad.

[david]

About the kids being hungry at school. I had the same issue. I found that the best way to handle that was to talk to the guidance counselor and ask her to contact ex or have someone else at the school contact ex without me being involved. The counselor talked to our youngest at the time and he confirmed the hunger issue. The school then contacted ex and told her what they discovered. That put ex on notice and it never came from me. Ex resolved the issue.  It took me a few years to understand how to communicate certain things to ex.

I view it as another obstacle to figure out. I don't like it because it takes so much of my time figuring these things out but it is what it is.

I noticed that the more emotionally detached I became the less "stuff" happened. I believe it redirected the "primal rage" away from me. I wasn't feeding the beast so it left me alone. It took several years before I noticed a significant change. My original concern was that it would be directed towards our two boys but that fortunately didn't happen in my case.

[Ulysses]

Thanks for the suggestion about the guidance counselor.  I've wondered about talking to her about this.  I also feel that the longer I'm away the more I can detach, and it helps.  However, it's like at this point he escalates and it takes a lot of strength on my part to stay detached and calm.  I also worry about the kids becoming the target and hope it doesn't happen.

I wanted to give an update and see if there is any feedback for the latest situation.  Last Wednesday, after speaking to my T about how I wanted to handle the exchange, and checking to see if my S11 had preferences, I emailed exNPD/BPDH that I prefer he and his friend not approach my car, but rather that S11 transfer the belongings to his car.  I explained I felt that would keep the stress level down and let S11 and me say goodbye, and let S11 make the transition.  Ex agreed and I felt it went really well.  No interaction, and while I was stressed a little after I drove away, I didn't break down in tears.

Since exH has said if I don't take D6 to the activity (pre-existing activity, falls on her time with him), she doesn't get to go, and since I haven't found a babysitter to drive her, I rearranged my day to take her, at least for now.  Today, about 24 hours before the activity, exH emails me that he's taking the day off work tomorrow and he can take her to the activity.  I can either bring her things (instruments) by at 4 or 7pm, neither of which works with my schedule.  So, our kids have a last-minute schedule change and I have to spend my energy figuring out how to get their things to him, or have him pick them up from me. 

I offered to bring them earlier, but that doesn't work for him.  He suggested I send them to school with the kids but I don't want to, plus I have an early morning meeting at the school, and I worked late tonight, so it feels like too much on too short of notice (and I think I'm rebelling at feeling controlled by him, and that makes me wonder if I need to take a look at my end of things).

In the end I told him I would be at her activity and prefer to do what we did last week, where he and his friend don't approach my car, and let S11 transfer any belongings.  I plan to include the dreaded duffel bag since they spend the entire weekend with him.  We'll see if I get it returned on Sunday.

My T has told me for a couple of years now that exH "destabilizes" me.  This is what this situation feels like to me.  I feel like I finally got to a point where the exchange felt ok on my end and he changes the rules again.  I think I have to accept it and wait for the waves of annoyance and frustration to pass through me, then figure out a response and be prepared for an exchange tomorrow that wasn't as smooth as last week, and stay calm during it.

It's also possible I'm making too big a deal about it.

[livednlearned]

Hi Ulysses,

It's really hard to establish boundaries if you haven't been doing that for most of your life, especially with someone who has a PD. And narcissists are very skilled at keeping you a little off balance, which can make you doubt yourself. But you did it -- you asked him to change his behavior at exchanges, and he did. That's a big deal 

My T felt strongly that my ex was BPD/NPD, and seemed to have different coping mechanism depending on the context and trigger. If your ex is more clearly NPD, it could be that you need a specific approach, which is to reinforce the positive. There's a workshop on this here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=120342.0

It's hard to do -- I felt like I was being insincere. I can't say that it always worked, but I am pretty sure the judge was doing this during some of our hearings, and my lawyer used it to great effect a couple of times. The parenting coordinator used it at first until N/BPDx threatened her.

[Swiggle]

I hear you saying that you are feeling controlled by him all of the sudden changing the rules in regards to this activity. I know how you feel and my ex who I believe is NP used to do the same thing. When my emotions were getting the best of me because I felt like he was trying to push my buttons and control I had to step back and ask myself "what is best for the kid(s)"?

In the situation about this activity you are feeling as though, he caused the situation to change, therefore he should be responsible for making all the pieces work and that it should not fall on your shoulders to "figure it out". Does this fit how you are feeling?

Like others have said often NPs will often try to make our life miserable with something as innocent as a schedule change. In a normal/healthy co-parent scenario this would make sense but since we are hyper sensitive to this stuff when we are trying to detach and set boundaries it can be really hard.

I think you have a couple of options, I'll try to see if I can get my thoughts across on the benefits vs. negative impact.

option one: send and a brief email stating what you can do and let him make his choice about it.

Dear Ex

I'm sure DD will be happy that you are able to take her to activity. I'm glad you are able to take her but since I had rearranged my schedule to get her there previously I cannot accommodate getting her things to you by 4 or 7. I can however get them to you at Xpm. I do not feel comfortable with them taking things to school, if you are unable to get the items from me at the time I stated we will stick to the original plan

This works of course if you are ok with sticking to the original plan. It may trigger him but we have to learn that their changing plans doesn't constitute us to jump through hoops to make it work for them. Sometimes a little boundary setting with my ex would make him realize I wasn't going to participate and he would do what I stated anyway.

Option 2: Send them to school with said items and let dad handle the negative impact the kids might have by having to tote the stuff to school.

This may make things harder for the kids but as parents we can't protect them from all hard things in life but it gives us a good chance to help them develop ways to problem solve when tough things come up.

I know for me having my ex "tell" me how things were going to go were really triggering in the beginning and I would feel how you are feeling (controlled by him). When this would happen I would find reasons as to why his suggestions wouldn't work... .I was trying to take back my control. Just keep your eye on what is best for the kids and try to let go of the feeling of being controlled. It could be that his schedule change was not a way to make waves but setting your boundaries will really help in the future when stuff like this comes up. Believe me when I say there will come a day when he does this exact same thing and you won't feel controlled and you'll respond accordingly without all the emotional stuff bubbling up inside.  

[Ulysses]

Thank you for our responses!  I do go through stages where I can really engage in positive communication, and yes, at this point it feels totally fake.  I also don't care to ham it up at this point because I see the kids' faces and it's a total lie on my part to say, "S or D is so happy you can take them... ."  I feel I'm not able yet to act convincingly, plus if I state these things in front of the children, I wonder if they'll be raised feeling invalidated.  Again, more for me to work through.  Sometimes the best I can do is a polite email.  I've read Bill Eddy's book and refer to it still.  Probably with more distance and as I regain and improve my self-esteem, I can practice this more.  I kind-of feel like after everything he's done and continues to do, I don't need to feel guilty if I can't provide encouragement for him at this point.  I'm still busy encouraging myself as I wade through this mess.

It seems to me like when I'm able to be positive, upbeat, and am feeling good, he escalates.  The silver cloud is that with each escalation, at this point I can see more and more that he's unhealthy for me and I can then detach more and become more objective about his behaviors.

I sent a polite email last night that I will bring the things to the activity at Xtime (because it works for me and avoids the hassle of trying to work out a time, via emails back and forth, that works for us both, none of which I talked about, rather, I just sent an email with the facts).  He replied this morning that he can pick things up this morning.  I thanked him for the offer, and basically repeated verbatim what I'd sent the night before.

What is best for the children?  I think of that constantly, and maybe a little too much.  I focused on them when I found out about his affair, etc., perhaps to the detriment of protecting myself, but it was where I was emotionally, and I was able to spend a couple of years with them that were valuable to me, and I hope to them.  I think at this point what's best for our children is to not have exNPD/BPD simmering with rage at the exchanges, and not have me shaking and getting frustrated, to the point where S11 walks back to my car and hugs me for a really long time.  What's best for me today is to not worry about bending my schedule to meet his last-minute change, and focus on what I want to do and what works for me.  I feel quite selfish thinking that, but again, it's where I'm at emotionally and it feels good to not twist myself into a pretzel trying to fit into his schedule change.  I feel I did ok communicating with him, I didn't feel overly frustrated when I received his emails, and I feel I'm protecting myself by not having contact with him during the exchange.  If he's so angry at me, why would he want to see me to transfer their things?   

In the situation about this activity you are feeling as though, he caused the situation to change, therefore he should be responsible for making all the pieces work and that it should not fall on your shoulders to "figure it out". Does this fit how you are feeling?

I'm not sure if this is how I'm feeling.  I'm willing to work around our schedules.  It gets difficult and there comes a point where I'm tired of dealing with the surprises and his nastiness.  I think at this point my biggest concern is to limit my contact with him.  I need to reject the role he places me in in his life, and learn what works for me.  It could very well be that I'm making a mistake in this situation, but I have to also learn that it's ok to make a mistake and I can readjust and try again next time if this time doesn't work out for me.

I'm realizing this all is a marathon, not a sprint.  Thank you to all who have responded, it's been valuable and I appreciate the feedback.

[Swiggle]

Thank you for our responses!  I do go through stages where I can really engage in positive communication, and yes, at this point it feels totally fake.  I also don't care to ham it up at this point because I see the kids' faces and it's a total lie on my part to say, "S or D is so happy you can take them... ."  I feel I'm not able yet to act convincingly, plus if I state these things in front of the children, I wonder if they'll be raised feeling invalidated.  Again, more for me to work through.  Sometimes the best I can do is a polite email.  I've read Bill Eddy's book and refer to it still.  Probably with more distance and as I regain and improve my self-esteem, I can practice this more.  I kind-of feel like after everything he's done and continues to do, I don't need to feel guilty if I can't provide encouragement for him at this point.  I'm still busy encouraging myself as I wade through this mess.

It seems to me like when I'm able to be positive, upbeat, and am feeling good, he escalates.  The silver cloud is that with each escalation, at this point I can see more and more that he's unhealthy for me and I can then detach more and become more objective about his behaviors.

I sent a polite email last night that I will bring the things to the activity at Xtime (because it works for me and avoids the hassle of trying to work out a time, via emails back and forth, that works for us both, none of which I talked about, rather, I just sent an email with the facts).  He replied this morning that he can pick things up this morning.  I thanked him for the offer, and basically repeated verbatim what I'd sent the night before.

What is best for the children?  I think of that constantly, and maybe a little too much.  I focused on them when I found out about his affair, etc., perhaps to the detriment of protecting myself, but it was where I was emotionally, and I was able to spend a couple of years with them that were valuable to me, and I hope to them.  I think at this point what's best for our children is to not have exNPD/BPD simmering with rage at the exchanges, and not have me shaking and getting frustrated, to the point where S11 walks back to my car and hugs me for a really long time.  What's best for me today is to not worry about bending my schedule to meet his last-minute change, and focus on what I want to do and what works for me.  I feel quite selfish thinking that, but again, it's where I'm at emotionally and it feels good to not twist myself into a pretzel trying to fit into his schedule change.  I feel I did ok communicating with him, I didn't feel overly frustrated when I received his emails, and I feel I'm protecting myself by not having contact with him during the exchange.  If he's so angry at me, why would he want to see me to transfer their things?   

In the situation about this activity you are feeling as though, he caused the situation to change, therefore he should be responsible for making all the pieces work and that it should not fall on your shoulders to "figure it out". Does this fit how you are feeling?

I'm not sure if this is how I'm feeling.  I'm willing to work around our schedules.  It gets difficult and there comes a point where I'm tired of dealing with the surprises and his nastiness.  I think at this point my biggest concern is to limit my contact with him.  I need to reject the role he places me in in his life, and learn what works for me.  It could very well be that I'm making a mistake in this situation, but I have to also learn that it's ok to make a mistake and I can readjust and try again next time if this time doesn't work out for me.

I'm realizing this all is a marathon, not a sprint.  Thank you to all who have responded, it's been valuable and I appreciate the feedback.

The way you handled it was really good, wish I had been able to do that early on. It probably felt really good to not have to bend and twist into a pretzel and then told him matter of fact what you are going to do. My T used to use the bend like a pretzel with me all the time, She would challenge things I would tell her asking if I felt like I was bending and twisting. It became something I would think about when situations would come up with ex that had me having to figure it out.

My explanation of how you might have been feeling was obviously off track. We so often just want to work things out in a logical way and the ex makes it so much more difficult and like you said they get nasty. With my ex when things were moving smoothly and there were little hiccups I would let me guard down thinking ok, maybe he has finally decided not to be difficult with every little thing... .nope just when I would give him the benefit of the doubt he would rev up again. I can definitely relate to this "I need to reject the role he places me in in his life and learn what works for me"! I used to sometimes hang up with my ex or after reading an email and go want to scream "I'm not your wife anymore and that is not my job".

Don't feel selfish about taking care and doing what is best from you. For me, thinking that way is what got me into trouble in the first place

[Ulysses]

Thanks, I feel overall I handled it alright this time.  I'm sure there will be future instances where I'll feel differently about how I handled it, and/or he'll escalate again when I'm not expecting it.

I can definitely relate to this "I need to reject the role he places me in in his life and learn what works for me"! I used to sometimes hang up with my ex or after reading an email and go want to scream "I'm not your wife anymore and that is not my job".

Yes, it's awful.  Even my attorney has now suggested I limit contact with him for my own health.  He wants me to play the role of mean, vindictive, ugly ex-wife.  When he was having his affair, based on the pornography he was writing with his partner, he placed me in the role of beautiful, snobby, classical-music-loving, controlling, frigid wife.  I'm pretty sure I'm neither extreme, and until I can figure out a way to always behave in accordance with my values, and hang on to who I feel I am, I think it's best to limit my contact with him.  He seems to float in and out of fantasy worlds and assign people different roles.  I've been working for a couple of years on recognizing this and rejecting it in my own self, not only intellectually but emotionally.  I still remember the break through I felt a few years ago when he once told me, "My perception of you is... ." and I responded, "I don't trust your perception of me anymore, so I don't care what your perception of me is."  That felt empowering.  I also keep an eye out for my children since I feel he does it with them on and off.

[livednlearned]

If he's so angry at me, why would he want to see me to transfer their things?  

Maybe to try and exert control over you? My ex did not want to be put in a position where he looked to S13 like he wasn't pulling his weight, and yet pulling his weight made him permanently mad at me. He would be positively seething at some of our exchanges, like a really pissed cat. Sometimes S13 would ask me why dad was so mad, and I finally learned to say, "I really don't know. I'm not sure if he knows."

You're handling all of this really well Ulysses. I think men with narcissistic traits are particularly invested in keeping things off balance as much as possible. My ex treated home/kids as my domain during the marriage, but when we were divorced, all that attention on S13 turned up the heat and attention, and that was uncomfortable for N/BPDx. I don't know if it's like that with your ex, but I found that the stress of parenting created a lot of interactions that were mostly lose/lose. It doesn't sound like much to focus on your needs and what works for you, but it's actually a huge gain. I hear my son say things now that blow me away -- he was so timid 4 years ago, and had such low self esteem. I realize that he learned a lot of what he's applying now because he was paying to what I was doing.

[Ulysses]

Maybe to try and exert control over you?

Yes I think that might be it.  My sister says that's what a lot of this is about.  She said she watched as I got strong after I found out about the affair, then something changed in me and she felt I became weak and controlled.  I don't know if that's the case but I do look at it in that light for my own self-reflection.  I'm also seeing how controlling at least one of my parents is, and exploring how I dealt with that growing up, etc.

This week's Wed exchange went alright.  I didn't have to interact with ex.  I saw ex and his girlfriend walking into church with my children and that was frustrating and I cried, but it didn't last as long as it used to, and I can intellectually see that I'm on a road (albeit a long, difficult, uncertain of the outcome road) that I feel is positive and I'm excited about.  Thanks everyone for helping so much here.

[Swiggle]

Being frustrated and crying when you saw your ex, his gf and your kids walking to church is a normal response. You are grieving, which is a long process. For me when I went through seeing my ex with my kids and his gf I needed to let myself feel that pain and loss. Even though I knew it was best the way things turned out it was still a major loss. Loss of hopes/dreams, loss of our family, loss of knowing I would never celebrate 30,40,50 years with the same person, loss in knowing I would miss some "firsts" with the kids and so many other things I had to process each one. Some couldn't be processed until they happened. One of which was just last summer. I've been divorced for almost 5 years, remarried, happy and when this one thing was my son's first last summer I lost it. I negotiated with myself about what if I had done this, or what if I beg my ex to come back, then I was angry at ex for what HE had done, then I was ashamed at the things I had done, then I beat myself up because if I had not done X he would still be with me, then I felt guilt that "I" had done all this to my kids. Yep this was going on in my mind for a day or so. I got through it.

You must feel so great knowing that your frustration and crying lasted less than normal, it is a step forward on your journey. My T always explained to me that while grieving happens in stages, often times you jump around from stage to stage. As time passes you might slip back to something you thought you already conquered, but it is all part of the process.

A song I used to listen to ALL the time in the beginning, was Sarah Evans "Little Bit Stronger". Often just hearing the song would make me cry, I would listen to it over and over in the car. Sometimes I thought I was torturing myself but you know what, one morning I didn't cry anymore... .I had made progress, another mile on my journey!

Guess what I did next... .I cried  but for a very different reason and so my journey continued that bump was in the rear view mirror.