What to do about holiday parenting time?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So DH and his ex just went back to court earlier this year to discuss parenting time, he was asking for 50/50 time that he did not have. We ended up getting that but I noticed in the agreement it doesn't specifically spell out that they split winter break. In the past they have always split the break. For instance last year he sent an email that went like this:

Dear ex

How would you like to split up the winter break. I was thinking I would have them on xyz dates and you on 123 dates based on how the holidays fall. This way we both get to utilize the break with the kids. I have to put in for vacation days so please let me know by x date.

she responded with... .I will have them to you by 1pm and I guess I don't have much choice. I think it's ___ty of you to take them away for pretty much all of DD's Christmas break, but its what I've come to expect from you. 

Now mind you they have two kids not just DD but a DS who she has referred to as "the boy" before. Also with the way it worked out she ended up with one more day of the break than we did. I can't stand the victim role it makes me 


Now this year since she has not been as accommodating since the modification we are worried that since the agreement doesn’t state they split the break that she will be a pain and say she isn’t splitting. For instance the break is 14 days total. With her 2 holidays falling during our time she ends up with 9 days of the break and us only 5…which sucks.

We are planning early as we are going out of town and need to make travel arrangements. A week ago he sent the same type of email as above but didn’t think to put a date to hear from her by. So several days go by she addresses other things from that email which we resolve but ignores the break question. In these texts DH asks again and she says she will have to look into it. Yesterday still nothing so he emails again saying I haven’t hear back from you regarding break, if I don’t hear back by Saturday I will assume that these plans work for you and I will plan accordingly.

So if we don’t hear back which we are thinking we won't, do we just go out of town and do our thing since she didn’t respond? What is the worst that could happen? I also hate having to "wait" on her for anything but at this point going to court again to make a modification like this will be draining and cost money when she usually buckles and does whatever we suggest anyway. Anyone with experience in these situations have other ideas?

[Swiggle]

So DH and his ex just went back to court earlier this year to discuss parenting time, he was asking for 50/50 time that he did not have. We ended up getting that but I noticed in the agreement it doesn't specifically spell out that they split winter break. In the past they have always split the break. For instance last year he sent an email that went like this:

Dear ex

How would you like to split up the winter break. I was thinking I would have them on xyz dates and you on 123 dates based on how the holidays fall. This way we both get to utilize the break with the kids. I have to put in for vacation days so please let me know by x date.

she responded with... .I will have them to you by 1pm and I guess I don't have much choice. I think it's ___ty of you to take them away for pretty much all of DD's Christmas break, but its what I've come to expect from you. 

Now mind you they have two kids not just DD but a DS who she has referred to as "the boy" before. Also with the way it worked out she ended up with one more day of the break than we did. I can't stand the victim role it makes me 


Now this year since she has not been as accommodating since the modification we are worried that since the agreement doesn’t state they split the break that she will be a pain and say she isn’t splitting. For instance the break is 14 days total. With her 2 holidays falling during our time she ends up with 9 days of the break and us only 5…which sucks.

We are planning early as we are going out of town and need to make travel arrangements. A week ago he sent the same type of email as above but didn’t think to put a date to hear from her by. So several days go by she addresses other things from that email which we resolve but ignores the break question. In these texts DH asks again and she says she will have to look into it. Yesterday still nothing so he emails again saying I haven’t hear back from you regarding break, if I don’t hear back by Saturday I will assume that these plans work for you and I will plan accordingly.

So if we don’t hear back which we are thinking we won't, do we just go out of town and do our thing since she didn’t respond? What is the worst that could happen? I also hate having to "wait" on her for anything but at this point going to court again to make a modification like this will be draining and cost money when she usually buckles and does whatever we suggest anyway. Anyone with experience in these situations have other ideas?

[Swiggle]

So we heard back and of course she said "no I will not be swtiching or giving up extra time during the holidays". So now we are of course wondering what action do we take.

1. get the attorney involved again so that something can be written in about splitting winter break

2. get a free mediator involved and try to do it that way

3. use the part of the agreement that is on our side that states... .Both parents can exercise extended time during the school year so long as it doesn't interfere with a holiday, day of special meaning or formal education. we can email her and just pick a few dates in December around the holidays that are her days and let her decided. We will have to rework our travel plans but that's ok.

Don't BPDs get tired of being so resentful and bitter?

[Matt]

Well one big lesson here is to focus on getting things very specific in the court order;  don't assume that everything can be worked out nicely with someone who has BPD or whatever.

But now... .

What usually works for me is to send an e-mail stating what I will do.  I need to figure out a plan that I think will work well for everyone - the kids, their mom, and me, and others who may be involved, like their mom's family.

Once I figure that out, I usually run it by the kids - mine are in high school now - and make any changes needed because of their schedules and their preferences.

Then I send an e-mail to their mom, stating what I will do.  Not a list of options;  not a question as to what she would like;  not a proposal;  a statement of what I will do, and a very brief and simple explanation as to why.

"I need to travel for work Friday, returning Saturday morning.  I will pick up the kids at noon Saturday, and bring them back next Saturday the 11th at noon."

This gives their mom the opportunity to push back, if there is some reason I'm not aware of.  Once in a while, she responds with something like, "My sister will be here Saturday so I would prefer the kids stay til noon Sunday." and I can say OK to that.

99% of the time, though, she responds either with "OK" or doesn't respond at all.  She knows that I have done my homework, and I have reasons for what I'm planning - if she asks more about my reasons I answer very briefly and politely.  She doesn't want to do the homework to figure out the plan, so she just accepts what I say I will do.

She's passive-aggressive, so if I phrase anything as a request for action from her, she can road-block it by giving excuses or just not responding, and then we have an impasse.  So I carefully avoid any request that she do anything, and phrase it always as what I will do.

In your case, since there is already an air of conflict about the issue, you might have to say what you will do, and let her know what your boundary is - that is, what you will do if she doesn't cooperate:

"I will pick up the kids at noon on December 20th and return them at noon on December 25th.  If this isn't OK, please propose something else.  If I don't hear from you by November 1, I will assume this is OK."

or

"I would like to avoid the need for mediation on this issue, or going back to court.  I will plan to pick up the kids at noon on 12/20 and return them at noon on 12/25.  If you would like to split the winter break in a different way, please let me know what you would like by e-mail by November 1."

If she doesn't respond, then on November 1 it could be reinforced, by sending her another e-mail with the first one at the bottom:

"Please see below.  I will pick up the kids at noon on December 20 and return them December 25."

Worst case, she won't respond, but when you try to pick up the kids, she will fight about it or call the police.  Then you have to walk away, and file a motion in court, to get the specifics in the court order.  At least you'll then know that court is the only effective way to deal with the issue... .

[ForeverDad]

Does your order set a limit to vacation lengths, totals or frequency?  My county specifies up to 3 vacations per year not to exceed a total of 3 weeks and a single vacation cannot be more than two weeks.  It also states that vacation notices (note: they are notices and not 'requests' must be sent by certain dates: "for extended time at spring break, by February 15 of each year; for extended time in the summer, by May 15 of each year; and for extended time at Christmas, by November 1 of each year."

Even that clarity caused problems for me in the past.  One summer I declared a two week vacation to the Rocky Mountains starting on my weekend and, since we alternated weekends, ending on my weekend.  I specifically listed only 2 weeks in the dates but I did have my weekends at both ends.  As you can expect, she complained in court that she couldn't see 'her' son for over two weeks.  And the court stated, 14 days is the maximum for a vacation.  Hmm, so what was I to do?  I had already listed just 14 days in the vacation notice.  Was I to hand them over to her on my weekend once the vacation ended?

I understand that you're trying to be less confrontational so as not to trigger the chaos and obstruction.  If that works, great, but if not then be sure to (1) send your Notice by proper and provable methods before the due date and (2) avoid encroaching on her scheduled holidays.  Be aware that many courts list a multitude of holidays and some are for less common groups or circumstances.  It should be okay to ignore those that don't apply or haven't been observed in the past.

For example, my court holiday schedule included a variety of holidays beyonf the Big Five or Ten.  Kwanzaa and Hanukkah were among those neither of us had observed before.  That is, until I sent her a vacation notice I would take a 6 day vacation out of state with our son taking all the time between her two court ordered holiday times that winter, from Dec 25 to Dec 31.  You can guess, she just had to sabotage me.  She wrote back that she wanted her holiday time on Dec 26, Kwanzaa, which would have cut my vacation to about 4 days, giving me maybe one day at my destination.  So I decided to cancel.  It was addressed in court about 3 months later and her reason in court testimony - which the court decision termed "not credible" - was that she wasn't of Jewish descent but she still wanted to observe it.  Duh, she knew so little about it that she didn't even know it was for African Americans!  However, when questioned by my attorney about Jewish Kwanzaa, she did get it right that both used candles, probably by accident.

[Nope]

I'm really surprised your order doesn't more thoroughly cover holidays. Having firm guidlines around these are especially important because major holidays tend to be very triggering for people with PDs.

Does she have any legal reason to need to comply with a request for mediation? Is that in the order somewhere?

With option one, do you want your L to contact her L about it? If her L is reasonable and can convince her client that it's in her own best interest ti work with you for legal reasons that might help.

I don't know if quoting the order and then giving her options for dates is going to help. I know the BPD I must deal with does not handle options well at all and she just ignored the order whenever she was in a position of strength and it suited her,

Don't BPDs get tired of being so resentful and bitter?

I'm going to borrow a page out of Dreamgirl's book and say that it's entirely possible that her desire to have the jids for more of winter break is less about hurting an ex and more about getting more time with the kids. If you've just gone to 50/50 that means she's lost something.

[Matt]

You can make yourself crazy trying to sort out somebody else's way of thinking, especially if their thinking is twisted.

The challenge is to figure out a way to deal with her that will work.

I had to go to the mat once, over a big issue - relocation.  I told her my plan - to move and take the kids, and help her financially if she wanted to move too.  She said no and cited the court order.  We went to mediation - several sessions - nothing accomplished.  So I had to tell her, "I will file a motion tomorrow, to change from 50/50 to primary custody, and to allow me to move.  And I will disclose all the stuff you would prefer not be in the public record." - she had committed several crimes such as assault and lying under oath.

She backed down, and I never had to do that again.  Since then, it's all about doing my homework, developing a good plan, and telling her what I will do.

You might have to go to the mat once too, to establish what you are willing to do if necessary.

[david]

I wrote our custody order which the judge copied and used since ex offered nothing. I have every holiday spelled out. Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter holidays are 50/50. If there is an odd number of days then that extra day is rotated year to year. I gave ex the extra day to start. It seemed the easiest way since she "won" that time.

The fact that you have an order that says 50/50 should not be a problem but my ex found problems with our order too. I simply state the order, in an email, and let her do the math. Example: This Christmas has 14 days. The order states 50/50 so both parents have 7 days and nights.  or  This Christmas has 15 days. The last Christmas with an odd number of days had mother with the extra day. This time father has the extra day.

I let ex figure out thedaysIf they add up okay than I simply agree. If they do not I point out the discrepency and let her figure it out. If she doesn't figure it out in two tries I then send an email with it figured out. Yes,these scenarios have all happened. I am actually surprised when things work the first time. I figure she either gets some kind of engagement feelings or is simply looking for a fight.

Matt is right about going to the mat. I think it is a way to establish a boundary that my ex doesn't like.

[Swiggle]

so here is the exchange with her on this subject... .

DH to EX - Break – Last year we split the break up between us and would like to work together to do the same this year. The break runs Dec. 22nd – Jan. 4th. With the current schedule, your Xmas and New Year holiday fall on my Thursdays, you end up with them 9 days of the 14 day break. I was hoping to get them on the 29th and 30th as I am off of work, giving us both 7 days of the break.

DH to EX a week later - I have not heard back from you concerning winter break. Am I to assume that these plans are ok? I will assume that if I don't hear back from you by Saturday that they are. Thanks

her response -  No, i will not be swtiching or giving up any days or giving up any time during the holidays. have a great day.

His response - Thank you for responding. Per the parenting agreement let this stand as my 60 day written notice that I will be exercising my right to extended parenting time on December 29th and 30th. Per the agreement specifications, these dates do not interfere with schooling or your christmas/New Years  day holidays. If you have any questions let me know, thanks

Her response - No, you have already used your two weeks of vacation/extended time. The agreement does not indicate that you can say you want "extended time" whenever you want. It is limited to 2weeks per year. I do not agree to allowing more. It is interfering with my Holiday plans. 

His response - please see below, this is from the agreement.

vacation/Extended parenting time

1. Two

(2) weeks of uninterrupted

parenting time each year are to be

arranged in one week

increments by each parent.  The

Mother and Father shall provide the other parent with not

less than sixty (60) days advance written notice to avoid

planning conflicts. The Mother’s choice of vacation has

priority over the Father’s choice in even numbered

years and the Father’s choice has priority in

odd numbered years.  Parents who cannot resolve vacation

scheduling conflicts may file a motion in the

Court.  A parent may arrange

extended parenting during the school year, provided that the

scheduled time does not interfere with the holiday parenting

time of the other parent or the formal education of the

minor child, unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the

parties.

If the 29th and and 30th do not work for you, how about the 3rd and 4th of January?   If you are not agreeable I will seek mediation/court.

her response - The section you are citing implies that   the two week extended parenting time could be during the school year if it doesn't interfere with school/ holidays. It doesn't mean that you gave an unlimited amount of time that you can just tell me your taking the kids even though I've said no.  I'm not sure why you expect me to give up my time with the kids just because I have them on the holidays this year.  If you want to EXCHANGE times for the 3rd and 4th of January. I will take the kids on the 13th and 14th of December or the 28th and 29th of November.  I will not just give up my time.

his last response - That is not how I read that portion of the agreement but will seek clarification. Two things I would like to resolve.

1. My asking about time over the winter break is having the opportunity to travel with the kids while they are out of school for an extended weekend. Since you are willing to swtich dates I am happy to exchange the 28th and 29th of November for the 29th and 30th of December so that I can take advantage of a long out of town weekend, during one of my holidays with the kids.

2. Separately I would like to address this issue for future years that we both split the winter break up in a way that we both have time with the kids and can each enjoy time off of with them while they are off school. We have done this the past couple of years which has set a precedent in making sure we both get time with the kids during their break. Obviously depending on how holidays fall and how our scheduled weekends fall will determine the split up of the days and I am open to working with you if you to need to switch up the days depending on how the calendar falls or what upcoming plans for the kids might be.

Hopefully we can find a way to resovle this, rather than having to take time out for court/mediation which I will do should we not be able to come to some sort of agreement. Thanks


I can see that he and I may be reading the agreement differently than she is but it is not 100% clear. Not sure what we could have done differently? This isn't about the kids or what she has going on it has to do with him putting something out there and her saying no just because. This was litterally just filed about two weeks ago. I'm annoyed the attorney didn't add something about winter break and I would have noticed it but was advised not to go to their mediation session becuase the ex HATES me. She told DH that he is a nutless pupet and only does what I say and that all their issues are becuase of me  . So here wer are 2 weeks after this was filed and kicking ourselves for not noticing this.

Swiggle

[Swiggle]

This was her last response.

I offered the switch for the 3rd and 4th not the 29th and 30th. I had been willing to work with him in the past surrounding the Holiday break under our old agreement. However, you were the ones that insisted we change the agreement and have everything spelled out. We did that. Now, you are still wanting me to change it further because the schedule doesn't benefit you this year. Well, too bad. I don't ever HAVE to give up my time if I don't want to.  You can threaten court mediation all you want. Frankly, I would love to share with someone the constant bull___ I put up with from you two.


I'm so tired of the fighting. before this new agreement there parenting plan was one paragraph that she wrote when they divorced. They split holidays so one parent had them from 9-3 the other parent got them from 3-9 and they went back to whoever's overnight it was. So annoying and we couldn't plan anything around the holidays becasue she was never flexible when we wanted to go out of town or what not because she has said that my family is not her kid's family so they shouldn't go. Now the new agreement, initiated by us spells things out more clearly with holidays rotating ever other and he now has 50/50 time. The old parenting time was

Mom got - Mon, Thurs, every other Fri, Sat, Sun.

Dad got - Tues, Wed, every other Fri, Sat but had to have the kids home by Sunday at 7pm. Mind you dad lived 10 min from where the kids went to school while my lives 30 min from the school. We would drive them home on Sundays so mom could put them to bed and drive them back to school the next morning before turning around and going all the way back past her home for work.

It isn't becasue it benefits us, in two years we will end up with majority of the winter break and aren't like her in that we wouldn't let her have a day or two to even it up, especially if she had something to do with the kids. but she thinks becuase she never wants/needs extra or different time with them that we shouldn't either. It is so frustrating. And we accommdated her some too the last couple of years. They take take take and never want to give give give unless it is a benefit to them. It is never about the kids with her.

[ForeverDad]

Sadly, you've learned by now you can't expect reciprocity.  And she won't learn your boundaries if you're being reasonable and expecting her to learn from that and be reasonable herself.

It isn't because it benefits us, in two years we will end up with majority of the winter break and aren't like her in that we wouldn't let her have a day or two to even it up, especially if she had something to do with the kids.

And what's wrong with telling her when that time comes that she wasn't willing to work with you when you made a request and your boundary is that you can't give her a break if she won't give you a break?  Yes, we don't want to do tit for tat, but the only other choice is she knows you'll fold and let her do pretty much what she wants.  Isn't that enabling her?

However, I doubt she would make the connection, you refused to work with us back in 2014 so we won't work with you in 2016.  Some things you keep trying and then let go, but you still need boundaries.

[ugghh]

You obviously have learned the lesson we all have, that even if it is in black and white, BPD think the rules don't apply to them.  I noticed throughout your husband's communications he continues to offer reasonable options that most logical people could work work with.  I will relay the mantra I kept telling my now 21 year old daughter as she was growing up and dealing with her uBPD mother, now my ex-uBPDw. "You cannot have a logical conversation with an illogical person."

As Matt pointed out, you are giving her options.  Options implies that she is in control which is precisely where the BPD wants to be.  The fact that she is able to stick her thumb in your and her ex's eye at the same no doubt makes it even more satisfying.

Based on the wording you posted, it seems clear that you have every right to request one of your weeks during the school year.  If I were in your shoes, I think the only thing that would cause me to let this year go is if she were willing to amend the agreement to address this for any future years.  Remember the basics of negotiation, you never give something without getting something in return.

[david]

Another angle to look at. If possible can you find what next years winter break will be. If you can and it works the opposite way it did this year you may want to point that out to ex now. Letting her know the consequences for next year with her refusal to work things out this year may be the thing that reluctanly changes her mind. I've used that strategy several times with my ex. Of course it has to be worded in a non combative style.

Years ago ex sent me an email requesting that our two boys be with her the entire mothers day weekend even though it was my weekend. I looked up fathers day that year and it fell on her weekend. I agreed with switching. This was all in emails. She agreed. When fathers day came I picked the boys up at school on Friday. On Sunday we went out to see a movie. Of course, I had turned my phone off. After the movie we were driving home and I turned my phone back on. I had three very angry messages. When we arrived home ex was in the driveway demanding the children. I had a copy of the email. I wound up driving to the police station. The police called her and she yelled at them. She eventually drove to the police station and I drove home. After that incident ex has never blatantly disregarded an email agreement to a change of custody.

Using their own illogical thought pattern against them works wonders.

[ForeverDad]

"You cannot have a logical conversation with an illogical person."

As Matt pointed out, you are giving her options.  Options implies that she is in control which is precisely where the BPD wants to be.  The fact that she is able to stick her thumb in your and her ex's eye at the same no doubt makes it even more satisfying.

Remember the basics of negotiation, you never give something without getting something in return.

You cannot have a logical conversation with an illogical person... .doubly so if that person is entitled and feels enabled.

I recall one time at an exchange years ago my ex was pondering the next exchange that needed changes, almost seeming not to be seeking all her time.  I thought I'd make it easy for her, I mentioned two options, neither putting her at a disadvantage.  She retorted, "Then I'll just keep him!"  It did work out later, but not right then.  That was the day I realized she didn't do well when offered choices, something a normal person would appreciate.  The phrases above in bold explain why.

It's possible she will eventually come around.  You'll feel you got what you needed, the time.  And she'll feel she got what she needed, negative engagement, reinforcement of her self-proclaimed victimhood and the feeling of empowerment and control over your lives.

By the way, in my area you can't go to court for Contempt of Court before some event has happened.  So while you may be able to go to court proactively to make fixes, the aggrieved party may not be able to seek consequences until something actually happened that the other believed was contrary to the order.  I hope that makes sense.

[Swiggle]

With the way that their parenting days fall, she won't feel this winter break thing until 2018 so she gets majority time between now and then. All of her family is here so her need to every travel around the holidays isn't an issue.

The only thing that she ever recalls needing is this she travels often for work out of town because they both have ROFR she has to ask us first, in whihc we have always said yes. There have been times that she has needed to be out of town for work and when that time falls during her parenting time she asks to have them during one of our days so she doesn't miss out. We have always agreed to this in the past. This happens several times a year and is the one thing that she will need and want us to accommodate her for. Should we bring this up in some way? She also refuses for the most part to communicate via email because she doesn't like the fact that I can read and or be the one to type up a response to her. We want to establish a boundary for that since it is so much easier to keep records rather than text messages.

At this point we are just going to go out of town and come back early unfortunately. DH and I were thinking in response to her last email something along the lines of... .I have put some questions for you in bold

I'm sorry that we could not work together as we have the past two years to split up the winter break in a fair and consistent way. Thank you for the offer to switch your January days for our November days but that does not work with our schedules after all. I would like to have the kids in order to spend time with them over their winter break should you change your mind about being fair with time.

In the past when you have traveled for work during your parenting time we have extended you the courtesy of having the kids on one of our nights so you don't miss out on time. I unfortunately will not be extending this courtesy in the future as you have made it clear that you do not want to operate in a fair and consistent way. I want to bring this up because I know she doesn't think about how this affects her in the future, she only reacts. I want it to be a boundary about her choices she is making now but not to sound threatening.

For ease all future communications for requests or anything about the kids needs to be made via email (unless there is an emergency or if we need to let the other person know we are running late). Should you text me with requests or questions I will not repsond unless an email is also sent that I can respond to. She refuses to only deal with DH which is fine but since he has stopped being a doormat and puts up some boundaries she thinks everything he says and does is me puppeting him. We talk a lot and collborate on how to deal with all issues. She always controlled their marriage so she doesn't get it. She often texts him about questions or requests and DH wants to make sure he has it in email format. We think we will eventually need it.

[Matt]

Well nobody can say for sure what might work for you - everybody is different and maybe this approach will work.  But I'll tell you how I would do it differently... .

First, I would not open up the subject of e-mail for discussion - that just leads to argument.  Sometimes it's good to announce a boundary, but I have found that it works best just to implement it.  (And this is a boundary I put in place too, for the same reasons, a few  years ago, and it has worked well.)  I would just quit responding to her texts or sending her texts;  let her phone calls go to voice-mail and decide case-by-case whether it's best to respond to her voice-messages, like if it's a truly urgent matter.

I would just use e-mail, and always aim to say, "I will do X.", and then do it.  Assume she is getting your e-mails.  (Or there are programs that let you know whether someone opened your e-mail or not.)  "I will pick the kids up at noon on Saturday and return them at noon on Sunday." - then do it.

Also, I would not threaten to act badly (quit accomodating her work travel) in order to get her to act right.  It might work, but I haven't seen it work.

Which leaves you in a weak position for the winter break.  But since the court order is (I think) on your side, I would put forward a schedule which is consistent with the court order:  "I will pick the kids up at noon on December 20th and return them at noon on December 25th.  That way the kids will be able to spend time with both families over the winter break."  Inform the kids too - "We'll pick you up at noon Saturday." - call them to remind them - just be very matter-of-fact about the matter.  It's a win for everyone!

Then... .if she blocks it - if you show up to pick up the kids, and she won't let them go with you - let her know, "I guess we'll have to go back to court to make sure this doesn't happen again." - and do it - file a motion ASAP to get the court order so clear that it can't possibly be misunderstood.  You'll be able to show that you acted sensibly - accomodating her work travel - but she didn't.

By the way... .you should be keeping a detailed log of time the kids are with you, and when they are with their mom.  I use Excel, because it's easy to do calculations, like how many nights they spend at each home each month.  You can also make a list of all the times you accomodated her travel, with e-mails or texts to support that;  like maybe you could show, "Ms. Mom asked for schedule changes, to accomodate her work travel, 10 times this year, and we agreed all ten.  We asked for two changes to the schedule this year, and she blocked both of them."  Probably not enough to lead to a change in custody, but if all you are asking for is more clarity in the court order, to make sure schedules work out for everybody, it should be more than enough.

While you're at it - if you have to go back to court - you can think of other things, like e-mail, that you want changed.  Throw in everything you can think of;  even if you don't get it all, you'll get more than if you didn't ask.

[david]

I used email only communication years ago. At first ex tried ways around it. I no longer answered my cell phone and let it go to voicemail. If ex left a voicemail I needed to reply to I would write what she said in an email with my reply. That happened a few times and she adapted. Eventually I had email communication only put in our court order except in an emergency.

In an emergency a voicemail was required which included all vital info. I only used voicemail twice in four years. Ex used voicemail more but most of the time I didn't need to reply.

We were recently in court. Everything was in chambers and the hearing was postponed. Ex's atty was adamant about changing email only communication. Obviously ex doesn't like that boundary. Judge didn't change that.

I actually got rid of texting a few years back. I let ex know. Recently I put it back on my phone. Ex does not know but if she sends a text I will completely ignore it.

I am not sure about sending an email letting her know the consequences of her actions by telling her you will not be giving makeup time. I am not sure how that will play out in court if you wind up going there. If you send an email (documentation) it may be used to show that both parties are guilty of tit for tat behavior. Just saying no from now on sets a precedent and a boundary. I would have to think about that for a while and try to figure out the best way to deal with that. I agree with your actual idea of saying no. I always communicate with ex with the idea of a judge someday reading the email.

I have come to the conclusion that ex will never agree with anything I propose and have found ways around that obstacle. It's not always easy.

My ex has misinterpreted our court order a few times. I never went to court about a specific incident but when I was in court I addressed those incidents along with others. I found it more cost effective this way. I expect ex to fight until our oldest is over 18 and then things will slowly die down.

[Matt]

David's experience is similar to mine, and he makes a good point about whether to announce a boundary - which might be portrayed in court as a threat, or "my way or the highway" - vs. implementing it, so the other party sees what you are doing and must decide how to deal with that.

My ex used to call me and start in ranting, accusing, etc.  When we were married, and I traveled on business, I spent many evenings in hotels, just listening to her rant.  Finally I learned to hang up the phone - not to threaten, or argue, but just to hang up the phone whenever she crossed the line into what I considered inappropriate.  Soon she quit unloading on me like that, and then later I quit answering her calls altogether, and she figured out that I was no longer available to her as a target for her abuse.  Now it's 99% e-mail - no texts and very few phone calls, and I haven't spoken to her face-to-face in a long time.  And I never announced the change, or asked for it in a court order, I just quit making myself available to her any way except e-mail.

One other subject you have mentioned - and on this there may be some different views from everybody here - is it OK for her to decide that she will deal with her ex but not with you?

My own view is, it's not up to her to decide how you and your husband run your household.  I'm a step-parent, and in my view, my stepkids need the same kind of parenting as biokids.  (My stepkids are now grown and out of the house but they still need parenting!)  If you and your husband decide that your role in parenting is the same as his, and if that means that you need to do some of the commucation with his ex, that's your call, and she has no right to dictate that.  Again, it's a matter of boundaries:  If you provide her some information as to what you and your husband will do, she can either accept it or not, but it's not up to her to dictate who the information comes from.

(This may not be legally correct, I realize.  Where the court is involved, your husband has a different role from yours.  I'm talking about how things work in your home.)

[Swiggle]

Frustrated and not sure what to do now. We heard back from our attorney and our interpretation of the agreement was wrong, we only get two weeks total of extended time/vacation in a given year. I'm pissed that the attorney didn't think about this winter/spring break issue when we modified the agreement a few months ago.

So here we are having to decide do we let this go or do we head back again to modify? Of course her nonsense about the bull___ we put her through and how we've dragged her back to court twice (once for something else) in two years is not true but it gets in your head like making us question "are we wrong in what we are doing" I hate that her f'up-idness can make me doubt what I know is right.

I'm tired of paying attorneys, tired of mediation/court and dealing with her and it will never end.

Swiggle

[david]

I keep track of any issues ex and I disagree on and have solutions for them. Eventually ex does something that I consider needs to be addressed in court. This has me spending less money for legal issues. I then proceed to court with overwhelming evidence to prove my case. I include all changes to our current order so I address all those other issues too. I found this to be the most cost effective way to use the court system.

I usually get 80% of what I asked for in my petition when I use this method. Judges don't like to make one person the winner so I expect niot everything will go in "my favor" because of that. I make sure the things that are important are addressed and let ex "win" some of the other things that are not as important to our two boys.

Example: We were in court two weeks ago. I am seeking more time during the school year because ex doesn't help the boys with their school work. I have copies of every homework for the last two years of our S11. He does over 90% of his school work when with me. About half of what he does at his mom's is incorrect and I have him correct those things when he is with me. I filed last August and ex has been legally dragging things out. Two weeks ago her atty had a conference in chambers with the judge and my atty. The judge decided to temporarily give me additional time during the school year until the hearing which was again postponed. In exchange ex wanted the entire Thanksgiving holiday, which is 50/50 in our order, this year with no makeup time. I agreed since it was only for this year and I would have more time with the boys to help them with their homework. Ex also wanted no ROFR until the hearing. I agreed and am keeping track of all the times she is working during her custodial time until the hearing. My atty will have her on the stand and she will have to have a reason for refusing to let the boys be with me when she is not at her residence. There is no good reason so she will only dig her hole deeper and will be exposed for what she is.

[Swiggle]

We emailed the attorney again just letting him now that we've worked together for 2 years and now she won't and asked him what our best options are. There are other things brewing like mom's live in boyfriend has been drinking a lot and kids are bringing it up in therapy. Mom and BF act innappropriate together, like he will grab her and feel her up in front of the kids. DSD tried talking to mom about it but mom started crying hysterically and make DSD feel like it was all her fault saying things like... .You just don't love me, you don't like BF, you would rather be with dad than me an a host of other things. She aslo hasn't paid the kids therapist in over a year for her poriton of the visits. Maybe we will bite the bullet this year and just go back all at once.

Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions, it really is helpful to see other views and that I'm not alone.

Swiggle

[david]

Document, document, document. All of it. See if kids T will write something or testify. Probably not but it is worth asking.

One thing I learned that isn't explained clearly. Judges must base their decision on evidence. Evidence is that stuff that is introduced as evidence and tagged, etc. Sitting on the stand a saying things is not as strong as presenting documented and submitted evidence. If that piece of evidence is used in questioning that is fine and actually much stronger. Having a piece of paper and showing it to a witness and talking about it is not the same as putting that piece of paper in as evidence. Evidence is on the record and kept in a file for that hearing. If a judge disregards evidence the ruling can be overturned much easier. Attorneys don't like that because they are in front of that judge again and again.

My atty understands that I want evidence presented as evidence. It goes to both parties atty's and the judge. They put a stamp, sticker, marking of some sort on it and it is officially a piece of evidence. They verbally acknowledge it as such too. I am not an attorney but have noticed the difference in my own personal experiences.

I am currently going through a custody hearing. We were supposed to have the hearing two weeks ago. Ex's atty wanted a conference in chambers with the judge and my atty. My atty showed that he had over 30 pieces of evidence. The judge gave a temp ruling, in our boys and my favor, and rescheduled the hearing since that much evidence was going to make the hearing much longer. Ex's atty did not see any of the evidence but does know there is a lot.

My main reason for going to court is the homework issue I mentioned earlier. I filed last August and ex delayed every step of the way. The one thing she should have done was to change her behavior and actually start helping our boys. She hasn't changed at all. This school year is no different. Our S11 has 26 pages of homework so far. He did four at his moms and three of them had things that were incorrect. They were simple mistakes that were because S11 wants to get things done as fast as possible. When he is with me I look at the paper and simply tell him there are so many incorrect on the page.He has to find them and correct them. It doesn't take long. I have copies before and after he corrects them. I sign and date everyone. Ex signs the ones he does at her place too so I have proof where he does them at. THis has been going on for the last two years and this year. My atty has copies and just shakes his head when I give him new ones. He can't believe ex hasn't changed.

[Swiggle]

We struggle with the homework thing to. Sometimes stuff makes it home to us, most of the time not. We struggle (although this year hasn't been as bad) with homework in that DSS take fooreve to complete, whines that he doensn't understand and engages his dad with all the nonsense. We found out from DSS and DSD that at mom's house she mostly does it for him or gives him the answers when he starts to struggle. She does everything for him though he is 7 and still has a hard time lacing his shoes (which we taught him by the way, as mom continued to by velcro) buttoning his pants and lots of other things. That is a great idea on the homework, I may have to start putting initials on ours so we know. Good news both kids are doing very well in school.

as for the T she is an expert witness and testifies all the time in court so that is a very good thing. She has tried to engage mom on several occassions to get her involved in the kids therapy but she wants nothing to do with it. In her mind her kids are fine. All these other things with the kids are just starting to come out since they just moved in with the mom's BF a month or so ago, we are monitoring very closely.

[Nope]

Everything David said about evidence is critically important to building a case for getting more time. And if you have to go back to fix the holiday schedule, then you might as well throw it all in there and see what sticks.

I hear your frustration about having to go back to court. It takes forever to get through the continuances just to get heard and then it still isn't fun for anyone when you do. Unfortunately, many BPDs will only listen to a court order. And even then, only sort of.

But I can stand with others and say that once the BPD has been sufficiently beaten down in court things do get easier. A parenting plan that spells out every date, time, place for pick ups and drop offs and every major holiday, and who is responsible for what goes a really kong way to supporting our sanity.

[david]

Our youngest used to whine all the time about homework. It took all of third grade and part of fourth before he realized I wasn't backing down. It was a test of wills and also the fact that mom gave him the answers as soon as he began to whine. I figured that out from his older brother and the things that he was saying. He still has his moments but not like before. In fact, now he usually just needs a break and then he does things fine.

The last two years I talked to S11's teachers about the home situation in the beginning of the year. Both teachers listened. They also had separate meetings with their mom. Weeks after that both teachers contacted me and we worked out ways around the roadblocks. One thing that worked well in my situation was that I see the boys every Monday. Both teachers gave their weekly homework assignments on Monday so I could help S11 do it on my Monday and finish on my Thursday. S 11 did nothing on Tuesday and Wednesday at his moms. That was third grade. In fourth grade I began to point out to S11, S10 at that time, that if he did some of his work at his mom's on Tues and/or Wed he wouldn't have as mush to do on Thurs. It made sense to him and  he did that from time to time. Working around ex makes things more challenging but not impossible.                                                 I gave up the idea of coparenting years ago.

Just last night, S11 was doing his homework and he told me that mom was very angry at me because I make him do corrections on the homework he is doing at her place. He said she was going to send me an email about it. I explained to him that I wasn't going to change the way things are done at my house. He said he knew that and just wanted to let me know mom was mad at me. Hopefully she will send an email. That is just more evidence. If not it is just hearsay in court and is useless.

I looked at a school calendar and figured every holiday, inservice day, etc during school. I also did the summer. I spelled it all out in my custody proposal. It basically split things 50/50. At that hearing, the judge said he was giving both of us two weeks to hand in our own proposal. I handed my proposal in. Ex's proposal was a rant about how controlling and abusive I was. There was no mention of the children or a custody schedule. The judge copied my proposal word for word in the order. I don't try to make sense of the things she does anymore. The day she starts making sense is the day I check into a mental health facility.

[Matt]

Inappropriate behavior between adults, in front of kids, could be a big issue.

I know a young man who was raised by woman who was later diagnosed with BPD.  She had a number of boyfriends over the years, and some of them teased her son or treated her badly.  Sometimes there was sexual stuff in front of him, or he heard them through the thin walls of the apartment.

He developed some unhealthy issues with regard to women and sex.  As a young adult, he made some very bad choices, mostly looking for love from women, to replace the love he never could count on from his mother.  His boundaries related to women weren't healthy.

Lots of big problems as a young adult - drinking drugs, and jail - and lots of them traced back to these sexual issues, and how he felt as a child when there weren't healthy boundaries.

So... .it's very worth working with a counselor for the kids and/or your lawyer, to figure that issue out - how best to help the kids through this.

One more thought along those lines... .

The way you describe the kids' mom, it sounds very much to me like she prefers a life focused on boyfriends, not the kids.  Comments like "You would rather be with your dad!" might mean "I would rather you were with your dad!".  Her need to fight might not let her admit it, but if you watch her other behaviors, maybe she would be relieved if the kids weren't with her so much.

(And this is exactly what I found with my own ex - she fought over custody, but outside the legal process, all her behavior has pushed the kids away from her and toward me - a million excuses why she can't take them when she should according to the court order.  The most obvious is, she won't get internet access, so the kids can't do their homework or use the internet - and no cable TV either - so they want and need to be with me more.  Makes no sense, until you realize she is more comfortable when they're not with her too much... .)

[Swiggle]

David, I wish we knew then what we know now. UBPDm only wants to do things with the kids if she thinks we aer going to first. When it comes to meeting their basic needs she feeds them (although not well), clothes them and gives them shelter. Hadn't taken them to the dentist in two years so we made appointments this year and man did that blow up in our face, she blocked the dentist from using her dental benefits... .she carries the insurance. She will stop at nothing.

I have calendars with everything written down... .Whe we ask for time and she says no and the reason, When she asks for time and we work with her, when she does something stupid and all the stuff with the kids.

I realized for me the hardest part is knowing that no matter how specific the agreement is at some point there needs to be flexiblity and it just won't happen on her end. Letting go of trying to work together with her to coparent for the kids sake is tough.

Swiggle

[Matt]

If you are considering asking the court to shift custody - which is probably the right solution if you can achieve it - one strategy you might consider is to find the criteria used by your state.

Many states use the 9 criteria for custody first used by Minnesota, or maybe they make some small changes or add a few more.  Stuff like, "Safe and clean environment", "Parent's physical and emotional health", and "Parent encourages and support child's relationship with the other parent".

If you can find the criteria used by your state, you can then gather evidence to show you are good on each item, so when the judge considers a request for change of custody, she can see solid evidence lining up with each of the criteria.

This thought process might lead you to gather some evidence you hadn't thought of, but which would help your case quite a bit.

[Swiggle]

Inappropriate behavior between adults, in front of kids, could be a big issue.

I know a young man who was raised by woman who was later diagnosed with BPD.  She had a number of boyfriends over the years, and some of them teased her son or treated her badly.  Sometimes there was sexual stuff in front of him, or he heard them through the thin walls of the apartment.

He developed some unhealthy issues with regard to women and sex.  As a young adult, he made some very bad choices, mostly looking for love from women, to replace the love he never could count on from his mother.  His boundaries related to women weren't healthy.

Lots of big problems as a young adult - drinking drugs, and jail - and lots of them traced back to these sexual issues, and how he felt as a child when there weren't healthy boundaries.

So... .it's very worth working with a counselor for the kids and/or your lawyer, to figure that issue out - how best to help the kids through this.

One more thought along those lines... .

The way you describe the kids' mom, it sounds very much to me like she prefers a life focused on boyfriends, not the kids.  Comments like "You would rather be with your dad!" might mean "I would rather you were with your dad!".  Her need to fight might not let her admit it, but if you watch her other behaviors, maybe she would be relieved if the kids weren't with her so much.

(And this is exactly what I found with my own ex - she fought over custody, but outside the legal process, all her behavior has pushed the kids away from her and toward me - a million excuses why she can't take them when she should according to the court order.  The most obvious is, she won't get internet access, so the kids can't do their homework or use the internet - and no cable TV either - so they want and need to be with me more.  Makes no sense, until you realize she is more comfortable when they're not with her too much... .)

DH and I both think that the kids are an annoyance to her. When they are with her they stay in their rooms and mom and BF are always off doing whatever... .in the garage where BF keeps the beer, in their room or watching TV, but shows that the kids shouldn't watch so they are made to go to their rooms. Mom would never let us have them, although I think she wouldn't fight very hard I don't think.

Her and my DH were married for over 10 years, just after DSS was born something changed in her he said. Their marriage went downhill after that. She always was a drinker, he had to carry her home many times (should've been his first clue) but after the kids he stopped because they needed to be adults and they had responsiblities. A few years after DSS he found out she was having an affair and left the next day. They had already tried marriage counseling but she never really took it seriously and said that things were all his fault. Her current BF is this guy she cheated with. The good thing is she doesn't jump from man to man.

I've talked to their T and to my biokids T about the implications if we fight for custody. She said that if we fight and say mom walks away easily that is opening a new can of issues later in life for the kids. Now if things start to be unsafe then we will but at this point I can see where it is a difference in viewpoint about what happens in Mom's house vs. Dad's house. For instance, do I think it is appropriate for parents to show that kind of affection (like BF touching mom's breasts) to each other when kids are around, no. But what is normal, who defines that? UBPDm doesn't think it is normal that we offer one thing to the kids to eat, if they don't like it that's ok the next meal is in x hours. At her house she is a short order cook and thinks we are crazy that DSS has at times gone days without eating what we cook. She accused us of starving him, but he would say to us I'm not eating since I will see my mom tomorrow she will give me whatever I want. But in her mind we aren't normal.

I really don't know waht the right answers are anymore, except that we will continue to love them and help them deal with their mom. They are already making serious connections about the type of healthy behavior in our  home vs. her mom's BF's home. As long as they have a different lens to look at the world through then I'm happy. She will always be their dysfunctional mom it's teaching them how to deal while protecting themselves that is important at this point.  

[Swiggle]

If you are considering asking the court to shift custody - which is probably the right solution if you can achieve it - one strategy you might consider is to find the criteria used by your state.

Many states use the 9 criteria for custody first used by Minnesota, or maybe they make some small changes or add a few more.  Stuff like, "Safe and clean environment", "Parent's physical and emotional health", and "Parent encourages and support child's relationship with the other parent".

If you can find the criteria used by your state, you can then gather evidence to show you are good on each item, so when the judge considers a request for change of custody, she can see solid evidence lining up with each of the criteria.

This thought process might lead you to gather some evidence you hadn't thought of, but which would help your case quite a bit.

Great idea, where would I find this info, what would I look up?

Swiggle

[david]

My ex continues to give me more evidence even when she knows that is the thing in my petition and why I am seeking more time. The only way it makes sense to me is exactly what Matt said. She wants the fight (engagement) and really doesn't know what to do with the kids when they are with her. If she doesn't win in court then she can portray herself as a victim to everyone around her. It's twisted logic but if someone really has no true sense of self and all the other issues relating to BPD it is a way to relieve the anxieties inside.

The reason she gets angry with me when I am helping S11 with his homework is because her view is all about her. She can't see past her own issues. If I am helping him and she is not then she is all bad. That anxiety needs to be relieved by projecting the anger towards me. That is dysfunctional thinking and the kids need to see it for what it is. If not then they will model that behavior and continue into the next generation.