How do men initiate?

[Crumbling]

How does sex start in your relationship?  How do things happen? 

Do you plan it?  Is it 'date night'?  Is it roll over in bed and start playing with her?

Just, in general language, how does the magic happen in your r/s? 

How do you men convey your... .cravings... .to your women?

I'm just trying to get at if I'm facing a Mars vs Venus situation, or something else.

I'm struggling with my sexual relationship with my BPDh, and I'm hoping this information will help.

Thanks,

c.

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[ColdEthyl]

Well normally before the issue I'm dealing with, it was just... .natural. One of us would start with touching and it just went the way it went. Now it's weird.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240635.40

Here's the thread on what ED issues I'm dealing with if you wanted to read

[formflier]

 

Hey!  One of my favorite topics!

I get the vibe that we (wife and I ) tend to have sex more often than average... .

I'd say 70% is me initiating... .and the rest her.

Boy... I'm all over the place as far as how I initiate. 

Sometimes I just ask... .sometimes I'll start giving backrub... .leave a note... .

[vortex of confusion]

Before I cut him off, I was the one to initiate most of the time. A lot of times, I would get rejected or he would be unable to perform. I don't recall him initiating much. There were a few times when it was mutual.

Not a lot of kissing or making out though.

It was me starting the car and letting him park the car in the garage.

[formflier]

How do you men convey your... .cravings... .to your women?

If it gets to the point where I really want something specific... .I'll ask.  So... if I want a certain position or something like that.

Most of the time we'll start fooling around and then see how things develop based on our moods. 


Crumbling,

Is there something specific you are wanting and not getting... or is there an area where the communication is not happening?

Generally speaking my wife is much less direct than I am.  For instance... .last night... I had no intention of having sex... .it was late... .I had no idea she was interested.

So... .I put these wrist braces on before I go to bed...   I have carpal tunnel and my arms will go to sleep... .hurt and cause me to wake up if I don't wear them...   Usually i take them off before we fool around.

So... .I set down on bed.  She is already in.  I start putting on the braces... .and she says... ."You don't have to put those on yet... ."  Really not a sexy voice or anything like that... .but... .she wanted to mess around.

So... I slip in next to her and asked "What is mommy interested in tonight?" 

Even though I was tired... .I gave it my best shot... .(yeah... I went there... )... .but... honestly... .tried to keep it quick because I was tired... .I know she was too.

I'm more likely to say "Hey... .why don't you come over here and ... .(fill in the blank)"

I'm bad to offer a backrub... ."with strings attached".  Not that she "minds"... .or has to be convinced to have sex with me... .

I do try to make sure that a couple of times a month a give a real backrub... ."no strings attached".  Interestingly... .sometimes when I finish the backrub and say I want to go to sleep... .sometimes she then comes after me.

I am fortunate to say that BPD traits has not "infected" our sex life to the extent that it seems to in many of the other r/s that are discussed on here.

If she gets upset in the evening and decides to sleep in another room... .that's her choice.  It usually blows over in a day or so... and I don't think much more about it.  I try to pack in all the good sleep I can.

Crumbling,

Does this help?  Or give you a window into the "male" mind.  I was in Navy for over 20 years... .of course we all talked about what kind of "home life" ... .we had.  I've heard all kinds of stories.  Enough to figure out that there really isn't a "normal".

I had one buddy... .whose wife put him on a schedule.  He seemed to like it... .and she seemed to like not worrying about having him chasing her around on the other nights.  On the nights when stuff was scheduled... .she apparently really poured her energy into it.  Of course... .we would try to figure out the schedule and see if we could make him late to go home... that kind of thing (what are friends for anyway?) 

[waverider]

I stand there naked with the basket of washing and ask her simply which she would rather do?   (hint: she hates housework  )

[waverider]

Seriously though a sense of fun helps...

[Crumbling]

   

Thanks for the responses.

So... .inject fun into it... .make intimacy a part of the r/s, even if there is no sex involved... .asking what she wants and being willing to give it... .None of this happens at our house, nor at VoC's or CE's either, apparently.   

I've been following your links about this topic, CE really close in hopes to find tools that may apply to us.  My BPDh doesn't admit to having a sex addiction, but it's definitely presented to me like it's a fix he needs fixin.  He says things "I can't think straight unless I get the sex off my mind." and stuff like that.

VoC said it exactly right:

It was me starting the car and letting him park the car in the garage.

Only his mechanic is presently on strike! 

[MissyM]

Crumbling, this sounds at heart an intimacy disorder (as I stated on the other thread).  We had these problems before my dBPDh ever started acting out sexually and I struggled for years to get help with this.  I do encourage you to find someone that does intimacy and attachment work, as I firmly believe that if we had addressed those issues that the acting out would have never happened.  It was frustrating because I spent years looking for help and it wasn't until after active sex addiction started, that we were able to get the right kind of help.  So by then we had all of the hurt and betrayal to add on top of the previous dysfunction and pain.  I know my dBPDh was always more receptive to, I really want to be closer to you and more intimate than I do not like what you are doing.  Just my 2 cents.

[Wrongturn1]

In general, the folks on this site might not be able to give you a clear picture of what initiating sex looks like in a normal relationship because the BPD dynamic heavily influences this area of life.

Over the years, I have learned that if I initiate when my uBPDw is not in the mood, it is likely to lead to a dysregulation episode.  So these days, I never initiate unless she has been sending me clear signals that she is in the mood.  Also, uBPDw is not the spontaneous type, so I know the routine and have to wait until she finishes everything else on her to-do list for the day and finally takes a shower, then it's mutual go-time as soon as the kids are asleep.

[formflier]

I stand there naked with the basket of washing and ask her simply which she would rather do?   (hint: she hates housework  )

Anyone want to guess what I'm going to do today... .?   

[Cat Familiar]

When we first got together, it was a very natural spontaneous thing that we didn't have to think about.

Later, when it became apparent how alcohol-dependent he was, it started really affecting my feelings for him. When he was drunk, I found him kind of repulsive and the sex we had lasted waaaay too long for me and I was really sore and uncomfortable the next day. (If TMI--sorry)

It was almost as if he was so disconnected from his body that he couldn't get to the endpoint.

So I made a rule for myself, no sex if he's been drinking. And that pretty much excludes all night time activity.

In the daytime, I'm often so busy with projects around our place, it's not my habit to seek him out. And I know that I really should try to change this because he's much nicer when he get some. 

[formflier]

In the daytime, I'm often so busy with projects around our place, it's not my habit to seek him out. And I know that I really should try to change this because he's much nicer when he get some. 

So... .what time will you seek him out today?   

[Cat Familiar]

In the daytime, I'm often so busy with projects around our place, it's not my habit to seek him out. And I know that I really should try to change this because he's much nicer when he get some. 

So... .what time will you seek him out today?   

Yikes, you're putting me on the spot--I guess before we go to yoga class this afternoon!

[Notwendy]

LOL this is funny. The laundry basket would work. So would doing the dishes! There actually is a funny book about this, that I think I mentioned on another thread. "Porn for Women". There is no porn in it- it's a series of handsome men doing housework.


I think this is part of the insecurities, fears of feeling vulnerable, and fear of rejection that I think we all deal with to some extent, but is far greater for someone who has difficulties with that already. If I can put my marriage into context, things got really tough at about the time we started having kids. I was painted black at that time too. It's hard to figure out what started what, but I did not have easy pregnancies. I think this was the first time I actually was not always "available" when he wanted, but I was still quite available. I figured a mature person could see that if his wife was throwing up that she wasn't interested in sex at that moment, but it was not a personal thing. He isn't able to see that. I think I mentioned a time when he wanted sex after I told him I had a bladder infection and then he raged at me. If you look at a marriage overall, these times were relatively rare, thankfully. I was loving and available, but it took one "no" to result in weeks of anger from him.

Then somehow ED got into the issues and I don't understand much why because he refuses to discuss it. However, the way he initiates sex is indirectly. I know that if he rubs my back, that means sex, because the few times I actually fell asleep when he rubbed my back would result in a rage. He actually accused me of pretending to be asleep to ignore him (no, I was asleep) . It got so if he rubbed my back, I would start to feel anxious, so I'd just get to it before something happened that he'd get angry about.

Sometimes, he will be more direct and I do go along with it because I realize it must be hard for him to do this. It's not that we don't have some good times together, we do, but I am still dealing with the emotional issues from having been raged and rejected ( as payback for him feeling hurt for something he thought I did that I didn't do) at over this issue.

[Cat Familiar]

LOL this is funny. The laundry basket would work. So would doing the dishes! There actually is a funny book about this, that I think I mentioned on another thread. "Porn for Women". There is no porn in it- it's a series of handsome men doing housework.


I think this is part of the insecurities, fears of feeling vulnerable, and fear of rejection that I think we all deal with to some extent, but is far greater for someone who has difficulties with that already... .it took one "no" to result in weeks of anger from him... .I am still dealing with the emotional issues from having been raged and rejected ( as payback for him feeling hurt for something he thought I did that I didn't do) at over this issue.

I love that book! If more men really understood that we're turned on by them doing housework, there would be much less trouble in the world. When you're working your $$ off and totally exhausted after housework, preparing dinner, cleaning up and then they expect sex, it often turns into yet another task, rather than something enjoyable.

I know that some of my difficulties about sex are due to having been married to a sex addict ex husband. Fortunately my current husband is wonderful, other than the BPD and drinking, but I sometimes lose perspective. I tend to have much less tolerance having been around the BPD block more than once (including my mother--who gave me really weird messages about sex).

Maybe I was being defiant about parental prohibitions, maybe it was just the hormones, but as a young person, I was very into sex. Not so much anymore. But it still is fun, if awkward to get going at times.

[Notwendy]

Yes, if they only knew... .

My H has matured a bit since he had these ideas, but he believed that if he did something I asked him to do, then he'd be "pussywhipped" ( his words) so he made a point of not doing what I asked him to do so I would not get the idea that I could pussywhip him ( That wasn't anything I aimed at doing). His thing was that he did his job ( support us) and if he did anything I was supposed to do that would be doing my job too and that wasn't fair.

What he didn't get was sure, he worked hard and so when he came home, he was going to relax. Fair enough. However once I cooked, cleaned up the dishes, helped with homework, put kids to bed, it was late at night and I'd been taking care of little people all evening long. He'd been able to recharge, and he was raring to go, but I had no transition between putting the kids to bed and then taking care of him too.

If he had realized how much doing the dishes, or helping a little bit on the nights he wanted sex would have made it so I was done sooner and not so tired, and we'd have more time together to just relax for a few minutes would have paid off, he may have rethought things, but there was no discussing this with him. Now, we are in such a pattern that I don't ask him to do anything "domestic" at all.

[formflier]

I love that book! If more men really understood that we're turned on by them doing housework, there would be much less trouble in the world. When you're working your $$ off and totally exhausted after housework, preparing dinner, cleaning up and then they expect sex, it often turns into yet another task, rather than something enjoyable.

Hey... .just to hold up the male side here... .it does work the other way too.  I realize that when I make this argument... .I'm arguing "non to non"... .as in two nons in a r/s.  Adding in BPD type traits to a r/s really puts things out of kilter.  Because... our views and "their" views... .really are so "skewed".

Anyway... .for all the guys that are reading out there.   The smell of bleach or pine sol (as a result of a husband using it) really does turn on a wife... .

And... .for the women out there... .dragging a husband into the bedroom for  bonus rumble... .just because... .is like validation for the male mind... .it just makes everything work better.  Plus... you'll probably get what you really are after.  I'm pretty sure the birds and other small animals that are in the house got agreed too when I was in a sex fogged stupor... .with a grin on my face.   

[vortex of confusion]

And... .for the women out there... .dragging a husband into the bedroom for  bonus rumble... .just because... .is like validation for the male mind... .it just makes everything work better.  Plus... you'll probably get what you really are after.  I'm pretty sure the birds and other small animals that are in the house got agreed too when I was in a sex fogged stupor... .with a grin on my face.   

That might work for a male that is a non. . .

I was asking some male friends how to get my husband interested and they said, "Show up naked with beer." Didn't work. I have gone to great lengths to woo my husband over the years and have only been met with unpredictable success because it is still all about him. He would get so excited that my needs went untouched. He might be in a good mood for a little while but I would walk away frustrated.

[ColdEthyl]

I stand there naked with the basket of washing and ask her simply which she would rather do?   (hint: she hates housework  )

Actually, I've had luck this past Sunday! It was not thought out or planned just spontaneous and he reacted very positively, and everyday he's been loving and telling me how much he's been thinking about it.

He also said last night something about how when I touch him I seem timid... .like I'm not exactly sure if this or that is ok (to be fair... .after 2 years of being slapped down most of the time... .it think anyone might feel unsure of themselves)

So... .I like this idea. Maybe I'll just be bolder. Maybe it will make him bolder, too. You know... .that whole BPD mirroring thing.

[formflier]

 

VOC,

Have you tried the counter intuitive thing... and tried to make it all about your needs.

So... you to him... .   "Hey... .since you are not interested in sex... .please just come in here and help me with my issue for 5 or 10 minutes... .after my "O"... .I'll leave you alone... "

Maybe you can have a bit of tongue in cheek... .or maybe not.

Just a thought...

[formflier]

Actually, I've had luck this past Sunday! 

Nice work! 

So when he tells you that he likes it... .and remembers fondly... .have you offered an encore?

Keep the momentum going!

[vortex of confusion]

VOC,

Have you tried the counter intuitive thing... and tried to make it all about your needs.

So... you to him... .   "Hey... .since you are not interested in sex... .please just come in here and help me with my issue for 5 or 10 minutes... .after my "O"... .I'll leave you alone... "

Maybe you can have a bit of tongue in cheek... .or maybe not.

Just a thought...

I have tried that once or twice. It was good.

My stumbling block is trying to figure out how to set and keep boundaries around sex without violating his sobriety because of the sex addiction stuff. I am trying to get back to a place where I am comfortable doing that. Right now, all sex stuff is off the table until I can figure stuff out in my own head. I want to get back to a place where stuff like that is on the table so to speak but I have to figure out how to approach it in a way that is healthy and is mutually satisfying. I am tired of trying stuff with him only to walk away feeling kind of blah. Part of what makes it blah is the fact that he likes to do a post mortem on things and that makes me uncomfortable.

[formflier]

 

What does his treatment team say?  How can you "behave" sexually... .(yeah... I went there... .)... .that helps his recovery... .

[vortex of confusion]

What does his treatment team say?  How can you "behave" sexually... .(yeah... I went there... .)... .that helps his recovery... .

I don't know and that is part of the problem. I think reading these threads along with some others about boundaries has given me some things to think about so that I can perhaps figure out a way to reintroduce certain things without worrying about violating his sobriety. He admits that he was using me to act out without acting out. He could do things with me without having to really take responsibility for his compulsive behaviors. I was (an am) torn because one of my values in marriage is to not withhold. I have a pretty high libido (in the right circumstances) so I unwittingly let him use me.

Does that make an ounce of sense?

[Notwendy]

Vortex, I wonder if you can separate your relationship from worrying about his sobriety. You can each be with each other for your own reasons. His addiction is his issue, but it shouldn't mean your abstinence unless that is what you both agree on.

This is something my H has spoken to us in T. I've told her about all my worries- will he rage at me, will I dissappoint him, will he reject me? For years, I was basically sexually co-dependent. I let him tell me what I should or not do, when I should do it. I had sex with him when I didn't want to because I didn't want him to rage at me. I didn't think I could ask him for anything. All this time, I had lost touch with any reason I'd want to do it. I was basically molding my responses and desires around him.

I understand that it is about two of us, and I should consider him, but the T basically told him to learn that sex when I want it too would be much better than when he pushed it under the threat of a rage. She also told me not to give in if he does rage. She's pointed out that I have rewarded his behavior. Now, if I do initiate things, it is without concern that he will rage or reject me. I know that has nothing to do with me. Sometimes he does turn me down but it doesn't hurt my feelings like it used to. What is going on between us will not change unless I change.

So what if you just were yourself with him? His issues are his and he'll have to deal with it. It would either be this or not be with him at all. It would be up to him and his sponsor to decide what he needs to do about being abstinent or recovering in marriage. You can think about you.

I know this is hard with SA, but if people with SA are married, surely there has to be a plan for that.

[hergestridge]

Now I don't usually post here, but I think I can have some valuable input about something that did work for me and my ex BPDw:

We were married for 20 years and our sex life didn't really work until year 17. Up to that point my wife had been the one to initiate, and she rarely felt up to it. The reason she did initiate was because she was not comfortable with me initiating because she so much wanted to be in control. It was like that very complex. Cosy dinners and lit candles always had her running off to bed disappointed and cold. Typicall BPD stuff.

What happened eventually was that we decided to simply have sex twice a week. Button up the pants and decide on a position - let's go! We started to discuss the best way to orgasm and my wife bought sex toys to complement what she could have from me. It was the best sex we both have had.

It was simply an agreement and no guilt involved. All fantasies were ok.

Of course it only worked when she didn't have a "bad" phase, because then I supposed she felt cheap and used. But that was no different from the first 17 years of our relationship really.

I suppose it's different for a male pwBPD. I was fully capable of giving my wife all kinds of pleasure and take care of all of her needs during our sessions. What I never managed however, was to fullfill her need for "initimacy" which she kept talking about. She kept pushing me away and there was no chance in hell you could touch her outside of bed (barely in bed for god's sake).

[ColdEthyl]

Actually, I've had luck this past Sunday! 

Nice work! 

So when he tells you that he likes it... .and remembers fondly... .have you offered an encore?

Keep the momentum going!

Oh yes I have! I'm going to send him some naughty pics and texts while I'm at work on Friday to "kick up some dust" for the evening  I most certainly offered an encore!

[formflier]

  I most certainly offered an encore!

Did he go for it... or put you off? 

Just trying to get a picture of how he is processing this (from a guy's point of view)

[ColdEthyl]

  I most certainly offered an encore!

Did he go for it... or put you off? 

Just trying to get a picture of how he is processing this (from a guy's point of view)

Oh not at all... .he said he's been thinking about it since and he wants more... .he's really turned on. This whole thing was a brazen move on my part, and he said in the past my touches and stuff have been timid like... "is... .is this ok? can i do this?" That's what he says. Honestly, if you are turned down most of the time for 2 years... .you might be a little hesitant. I didn't *think* I was hesitant but he claims I was. But, they are pretty damn observant. (of other people of course)

I was not hesitant on Sunday. So... .I started to think back to how it was in the beginning, and there was a lot of dirty pics, texts things like that.

[Grey Kitty]

He also said last night something about how when I touch him I seem timid... .like I'm not exactly sure if this or that is ok (to be fair... .after 2 years of being slapped down most of the time... .it think anyone might feel unsure of themselves)

So... .I like this idea. Maybe I'll just be bolder.

DING, DING, DING! We have a winner here!

Timid is NOT sexy.

Bold and confident is sexy.

Be sexy.

(And let me say that being rejected with a full-on dysregulation when you approach your spouse about sex does NOT make being bold easy. My wife did that to me a lot during darker days a few years ago. I still am less sure of myself than I would like to be all too often.)

And a further comment... .when you touch your partner... .the other word I might use is tentative. Whatever level of intimacy, that sort is probably the worst.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

I was not hesitant on Sunday. So... .I started to think back to how it was in the beginning, and there was a lot of dirty pics, texts things like that.

OK... .I think I understand now... .

So... why wait till Friday?

[ColdEthyl]

I was not hesitant on Sunday. So... .I started to think back to how it was in the beginning, and there was a lot of dirty pics, texts things like that.

OK... .I think I understand now... .

So... why wait till Friday?

Well, since you asked... .Sunday's "lucky" was a BJ for him that ended with a BANG. I am on my period and should be off by then. Have I given you TMI, yet?  

[vortex of confusion]

DING, DING, DING! We have a winner here!

Timid is NOT sexy.

Bold and confident is sexy.

Be sexy.

Hey, that goes both ways! My husband is very timid, almost like he is scared of me at times.

I used to joke with him, "Now kiss me like you mean it!"

Hmmmm. . .more food for thought!

[Boss302]

I have a simple technique... .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M25sE8Ccapc

[Cole]

I stand there naked with the basket of washing and ask her simply which she would rather do?   (hint: she hates housework  )

Sounded good, gave it a try. I now have clean laundry.

[Cat Familiar]

I stand there naked with the basket of washing and ask her simply which she would rather do?   (hint: she hates housework  )

Sounded good, gave it a try. I now have clean laundry.

Hilarious! Sorry, Dude.

[MissyM]

Hey, that goes both ways! My husband is very timid, almost like he is scared of me at times.

I used to joke with him, "Now kiss me like you mean it!"

Hmmmm. . .more food for thought!

Hey, now stop having the same husband that I do!  

I used to say that I didn't want to have sex with a child, that it was really creepy because he was so terrified of me and fumbled around for what to do.  He always looked terrified.  That was during our almost no sex marriage.  Ugh!  Not a pleasant experience.  Think the only way he could have sex was to totally disassociate.  Thank goodness he has worked through that.  VOC, does your husband have a history of childhood sexual abuse or shaming?  It is just so similar to mine that it makes me wonder.

[formflier]

I stand there naked with the basket of washing and ask her simply which she would rather do?   (hint: she hates housework  )

Sounded good, gave it a try. I now have clean laundry.

Keep swinging for the fences!  Tomorrow... .show up with bucket and mop... naked.  Next day... .broom.  Next day... .toilet brush... .

You get the picture... .she has to have a sense of humor in there someplace.  Keep working it...

[vortex of confusion]

Hey, now stop having the same husband that I do!  

I used to say that I didn't want to have sex with a child, that it was really creepy because he was so terrified of me and fumbled around for what to do.  He always looked terrified.  That was during our almost no sex marriage.  Ugh!  Not a pleasant experience.  Think the only way he could have sex was to totally disassociate.  Thank goodness he has worked through that.  VOC, does your husband have a history of childhood sexual abuse or shaming?  It is just so similar to mine that it makes me wonder.

I don't think there was sex abuse when he was a child but there was a lot of shame around sex because of his religion. He got a lot of mixed messages. In his church, there shouldn't be any sex outside of marriage, masturbation is a mortal sin, every sperm is sacred type stuff. He heard messages like that day in and day out in school and church. He went to a private religious school and had religion classes every single day for most of his life. Then, he found his dad's stash of porn. It was really confusing for him. He did have a questionable experience when he was in college with another guy. Not sure if that is part of the equation or not. I think it added to his confusion and was part of the reason that he thought he was bi for a little while.

[formflier]

 

Wow... .where is he at with religion now?

I'm a very religious guy. 

Luckily... .wife and I are on same page with religious teachings that say her body is mine... .and mine is hers.

And... .church pushes a practical message that guys that eat "fillet mignon" at home... .tend to not want to get a "cheap meal" out in town. 

Yeah... they make a big deal about no sex outside of marriage... .but inside marriage... .have at it!

[vortex of confusion]

Wow... .where is he at with religion now?

He is pretty inconsistent with his religion. He doesn't go to church any more but still prays and reads his prayer and meditation books. There seems to be a bit of a disconnect in his brain somewhere.

Luckily... .wife and I are on same page with religious teachings that say her body is mine... .and mine is hers.

That would be great if he would just take a bit of ownership. (The magic button to get him excited was me being with somebody else.)

And... .church pushes a practical message that guys that eat "fillet mignon" at home... .tend to not want to get a "cheap meal" out in town. 

I have always agreed with that sentiment and have tried to make sure that he got plenty of fillet mignon accompanied by a six course meal.   

Yeah... they make a big deal about no sex outside of marriage... .but inside marriage... .have at it!

And that was my take on things. I thought I was getting married so that I could get as much as I wanted whenever I wanted without worrying about any kind of repercussions. One of the purposes of marriage is to procreate. 

[Cat Familiar]

In the daytime, I'm often so busy with projects around our place, it's not my habit to seek him out. And I know that I really should try to change this because he's much nicer when he get some. 

So... .what time will you seek him out today?   

Well I did and we ended up just cuddling because he had stopped for lunch, had a bad hamburger and fries and the resultant tummy ache. Cuddling was nice though. Thanks for the nudge. 

[MissyM]

I don't think there was sex abuse when he was a child but there was a lot of shame around sex because of his religion. He got a lot of mixed messages. In his church, there shouldn't be any sex outside of marriage, masturbation is a mortal sin, every sperm is sacred type stuff. He heard messages like that day in and day out in school and church. He went to a private religious school and had religion classes every single day for most of his life. Then, he found his dad's stash of porn. It was really confusing for him. He did have a questionable experience when he was in college with another guy. Not sure if that is part of the equation or not. I think it added to his confusion and was part of the reason that he thought he was bi for a little while.

Interesting.  My dBPDh has a similar background, a religion that was sexually shaming and a father that was an alcoholic and sex addict.  His father would be drunk and exposed himself to my husband when he was little, as well as him finding his father's porn and learning of him having sex with prostitutes when he was a teen.  Yet at Church (he is LDS) sex was considered very sinful and not allowed at all.  Both of these things led to a lot of confusion.  On one hand women were objectified/abused and on the other hand they were to be avoided at all cost in any way sexually or it was a mortal sin.  No wonder my dBPDh was terrified around the issue.  Sounds like your husband had similar contradictory messages.  None of it is healthy sexuality.

[Cole]

I stand there naked with the basket of washing and ask her simply which she would rather do?   (hint: she hates housework  )

Sounded good, gave it a try. I now have clean laundry.

Keep swinging for the fences!  Tomorrow... .show up with bucket and mop... naked.  Next day... .broom.  Next day... .toilet brush... .

Already the plan. House needs a good cleaning!

You get the picture... .she has to have a sense of humor in there someplace.  Keep working it...

[Notwendy]

The topic of religion has been brought up in my ACOA group, as some people struggle with the idea of a higher power. How religion plays out in action is dependent on who is doing the action, and we all are aware of examples of people using it for good things and also terrible things.

It would make sense then, that people raised in dysfunctional families would have also been exposed to religion in a dysfunctional way. Shaming, abusive, critial parents, controlling parents would present God in that way. My parents were not heavy handed with religion, but they were rarely forgiving. Even now, my mother brings up things I did in childhood or as a teen. As far as she is concerned, if I didn't share a candy bar with my sibling, I was a mean selfish person, not a little kid who didn't want to share the candy, like most kids do. So even though they didn't teach me this- my idea of God was one who would never forget and never forgive. I had to change that idea as an adult. Many people in my ACOA group who have had an idea of a "I'm going to get you God" have changed denominations, given up religion, chosen another one, or revisited their ideas of what they thought God was, in order to start over with something that doesn't have baggage from how they were raised.

[Rail33]

I agree with Cold on the atmosphere now as I feel like I don't know who she is and I really  don't know what will happen during or after sex.  I had to think for a minute as to how I used to initiate and it could be many ways, the normal slow kissing moving down the neck, a footrub or massage, slipping into the shower or tub and sometimes just pressing her firmly against the wall or doorway... .sorry if I was too detailed... .got a little caught up... .LOL

Today I just don't trust her and don't trust that she will stay in the same emotional state long enough to really feel anything. 

[MissyM]

The topic of religion has been brought up in my ACOA group, as some people struggle with the idea of a higher power. How religion plays out in action is dependent on who is doing the action, and we all are aware of examples of people using it for good things and also terrible things.

Yes, it is true.  I have friends in recovery from all kinds of religions and sexual shaming was an issue for most that I know in recovery.  There has been a big shift in many religions, LDS included, to get away from sexual shaming.  Now that the damage is known and there is more awareness of porn addiction and sex addiction, many church's have taken a softer approach.  Since the goal is healthy sexuality in marriage, the way to get there has changed in many religions.  I was fortunate because my father did not want us to be raised in as rigid an environment as he was and was adamant that we have a loving, caring view of God and not a punitive view.

[formflier]

my idea of God was one who would never forget and never forgive. 

Forgiveness is a huge issue... .if you don't accept forgiveness... .not much chance you will pass it on.

If there is not forgiveness... .wow... .I don't know where that leads... .not good.

[ColdEthyl]

This is all a very interesting topic. My dBPDh experienced some religion issues growing up. His mother wasn't religious at all until he was about 8. The church she got into was sort of cultish from the description... .they believed their pastor was a prophet... women couldn't cut hair, had to wear dresses, etc etc. He said he was forced to go, and his father never went... .he refuses to. Sometimes his dad would bail him out and say he's going to take him fishing... .but he would leave him at home and go fishing with his older cousins. That hurt him a lot. Also, he talks about his mom and sister buying new dresses, purses, etc etc for church and he would still have holes in his shoes. His mother forced him to get baptized, and by the age of 12 they were trying to make him cut his hair (My husband is Native and preferred his long hair not to be cut) he eventually decided to run away and be on his own rather than live under their rules.

His sexual past isn't much prettier. He was raped and drugged by a family friend repeatedly. He says that didn't affect him, but I'm pretty sure between that and feeling like 'the forgotten child' as one of his mom's neighbors described him (she said he was always playing outside alone and she never saw much interaction with him and the rest of the family. She told me she always felt so sad for him out there playing alone) he has baggage from it.

He was pretty experimental sexually in his 20s, some experiences with males, swinging, etc etc

I sometimes wonder if regular everyday white bread sex just doesn't do it for him... .or he simply just doesn't even know how to function in that type of scenario.

[Crumbling]

    Thanks for everyone's input!

This is so interesting!  Isn't that something, that the topic of sex became about religion!

They are both such deep rooted notions. 

I too cannot imagine life without forgiveness... .humans error, it's what we do... .how could one live life without accepting that and forgiving mistakes, both our own and each others.  I also don't understand a God who judges.  My God wants us to not judge each other, and to accept each other for who we are.  Why would he turn around then, and judge me at the final hour?  My God knows where my heart is and that is between me and him, like in a relationship, not a dictatorship.

I think my BPDh's issue stems more from a fear of intimacy, or some deep rooted lack of empathy (I know, I know, that's BPD).  Be right back.

[Crumbling]

My BPDh is very timid with sex, he shies away from anything new, different or the least bit off the norm.  That's being nice, he does more than shy away, he dysregs... .unless it's his idea, his attempt, his suggestion... .and he doesn't ever want anything different, except if it's a fantasy/desire of his.  After ten years, I know all of these, seen it, done it and bought the tee shirt, in every size.

I'm going to continue on the other thread, I don't know why I started two.

[MaroonLiquid]

Luckily... .wife and I are on same page with religious teachings that say her body is mine... .and mine is hers.

Same here.  We believe the same way.  I have always enjoyed giving her back rubs and she takes full advantage of it and always gets her in the mood.  Sex has never been an issue in our marriage up until the separation.  Until then, we would have sex 2-5 times a week and it was never dull and very rarely did it feel pushed.  It's gotten better over the course of the separation where for the first four months it was only like once, or maybe twice.  Since things have started to change for the better, we are now up to once a week on average because of the silent treatment at times she tries to pull.  After the wreck over the weekend, I stayed with my wife (slept in our daughter's room) and the first two nights, our daughter that was in the wreck with me slept in the room with her.  I never said anything about it because I know she was dealing with some pain and my wife wanted to keep an eye on her.  Night before last, my wife asked me where I wanted to sleep, in the room with her or in our daughter's room again.  Since she hadn't said anything about it, I knew right away that she wanted me to sleep with her.  I told her I would like to sleep in bed with her and she said, "OK."  She told our daughter that she needed to sleep in her room and she threw a fit.  I almost laughed because she lied to our daughter about the reason why telling her that I got too hot in the room... .Seriously?  How about the fact that we're married and you don't need to explain yourself?  Mentally, I was just like, "Whatever" and let it go. I will say it was incredible the other night though.  She was very loving, and into it, and then yesterday morning started pulling away and said yesterday evening it was "just sex" in her mind to try and hurt me.  Oh well.  It doesn't... .

[Grey Kitty]

Luckily... .wife and I are on same page with religious teachings that say her body is mine... .and mine is hers.

I'm not of that sort of faith... .and when I hear that, some serious alarm bells go off... .not religious ones. FF and the rest of you, I'm pretty sure you are with me here... .but I just cannot let the possibility of somebody else misunderstanding this happen.

There is a fundamental boundary issue here.

Everybody's body is THEIRS. If in any way you engage in sex with your wife without her willing consent, that is a HORRIBLE boundary violation. The word for that boundary violation is rape.

Same with your body--If your wife does something to/with it without your consent, it is the same violation.

OK... .I'm off my soapbox.  Please resume the otherwise great discussion here.

[ColdEthyl]

  Thanks for everyone's input!

This is so interesting!  Isn't that something, that the topic of sex became about religion!

They are both such deep rooted notions. 

I too cannot imagine life without forgiveness... .humans error, it's what we do... .how could one live life without accepting that and forgiving mistakes, both our own and each others.  I also don't understand a God who judges.  My God wants us to not judge each other, and to accept each other for who we are.  Why would he turn around then, and judge me at the final hour?  My God knows where my heart is and that is between me and him, like in a relationship, not a dictatorship.

I think my BPDh's issue stems more from a fear of intimacy, or some deep rooted lack of empathy (I know, I know, that's BPD).  Be right back.

I think it's a 'perfect storm' situation. pwBPD tend to be of higher intelligence, and often suffered neglect/abuse. What's odd to me is I'm considered above average intelligence and suffered neglect and abuse but my mental disorders are different. I have generalized anxiety disorder, addiction issues, co-dependency, and I just read the article on here about the three faces of victims and CRAP. I am definitely a caregiver, and the reason stated are exactly what I think so... .I'm going to have to work on that.

As far as my personal beliefs in a God... .one one hand it's hard for me to believe in things I cannot see or have evidence of. On the other, there are things that happen in my life where I question and ponder. For instance, a co-worker might be going through a situation where her child might be being molested, or least exposed to things she shouldn't be. I can help her because I have gone through it. It was the absolute worst time of my life, but had I not gone through it, I would not know what to look for to help someone else. SO, when something like that happens, I do wonder if there's a higher being... .or a reason why things happen after all.

My conclusion is I have no friggin' idea, and I won't be arrogant enough to make a decision. I'd like to think if their was a God who made us the way we are,  they would understand us and love us. /shrug

As Mags Bennett on Justified once said, "At some point or another, we will all learn the "Great Mystery".

[formflier]

Luckily... .wife and I are on same page with religious teachings that say her body is mine... .and mine is hers.

I'm not of that sort of faith... .and when I hear that, some serious alarm bells go off... .not religious ones. FF and the rest of you, I'm pretty sure you are with me here... .but I just cannot let the possibility of somebody else misunderstanding this happen.

There is a fundamental boundary issue here.

Everybody's body is THEIRS. If in any way you engage in sex with your wife without her willing consent, that is a HORRIBLE boundary violation. The word for that boundary violation is rape.

Same with your body--If your wife does something to/with it without your consent, it is the same violation.

OK... .I'm off my soapbox.  Please resume the otherwise great discussion here.

Yeah... .I should have explained that more... .or kept my mouth shut.  If anyone reads this... and is conservative Christian (like me)... and with a person that has BPD traits (like my wife)... .I would be happy to start a separate thread.   

These Christian teachings about putting you partner first... .trying to emulate Christ... work well if you are "equally yoked".  However... .in a r/s with BPD traits... .you are not "equally yoked"... .and... .as predicted in the Bible... .problems occur.

So... the quick version... .is that Biblical Christian teaching says that when you marry... .you make the other more important than you... .and that you are available to them for sex except for mutually agreed on times that you both then spend in prayer.  As a spouse... .your goal is to "serve" the other... rather than take care of your own needs.

If both do this... .it works well... .

I'll hush... .back to sex thread.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .