Can we reject cell phone from uBPDm?

[bravhart1]

uBPDm wants to get cell phone for SD6 so she can call her when ever she wants. Courts have specifically not granted her requests for court ordered phone calls as she has so many issues around boundaries and SD6 needs her space.

My bigger concern is that she will "track" the phone so she knows where daughter is at all times. Not that SD6 is somewhere she shouldn't be, but mom has major control issues and a propensity for exaggeration so even a little information gets twisted into something nefarious.

I could also see her asking SD6 to record conversations and secretly videotape. I know this sounds paranoid, but if you only knew the sick stuff she has gotten SD6 to do and ask on her mothers behalf you would understand.

Can we legally reject her bringing it into our house? I'll mail it back if She sneaks it in the backpack I guess, but I really don't like the whole idea of it. Especially while SD6 is too young to understand being used as a spy.

[whirlpoollife]

uBPDm wants to get cell phone for SD6 so she can call her when ever she wants. Courts have specifically not granted her requests for court ordered phone calls as she has so many issues around boundaries and SD6 needs her space.

My bigger concern is that she will "track" the phone so she knows where daughter is at all times. Not that SD6 is somewhere she shouldn't be, but mom has major control issues and a propensity for exaggeration so even a little information gets twisted into something nefarious.

I could also see her asking SD6 to record conversations and secretly videotape. I know this sounds paranoid, but if you only knew the sick stuff she has gotten SD6 to do and ask on her mothers behalf you would understand.

Can we legally reject her bringing it into our house? I'll mail it back if She sneaks it in the backpack I guess, but I really don't like the whole idea of it. Especially while SD6 is too young to understand being used as a spy.

No you are not paranoid.  Ask yourself , do you have this paranoia with anyone else? I bet not.

My now teenage children were/are used as spies for their dad.  I am also concerned of him tracking where we are via cell phones. When their cell phones would get "lost" he would tell me to use his phone to talk to them. I do not and will not because he will record. 

Do you have your own cell phone? Do you have a landline phone ?  My L had said as long kids have access to a phone to call the other parent or for the parent to call kids. It does not matter what phone. 

So I would say you can use your phone for D to talk to mom and take battery out of D's phone .

But you don't want mom calling you all day... .or for extended periods of times to D.

My h got times and limits on phone use because he would call at all times and stay on the phone for hours.

Print out phone records and highlight the calls. To / from length of time mom keeps D on the phone.

[rarsweet]

You could also put the phone away except for certain times. You don't have to bring it everywhere. If it was me I would take it but put it in a drawer or something, and take it out from 6 to 7 pm or something. Not only the possible tracking issue, I imagine you wouldn't want to be sitting down for dinner or have her be getting ready for bed and have the phone ringing.

[Panda39]

No you are not paranoid.  Ask yourself , do you have this paranoia with anyone else? I bet not.

My now teenage children were/are used as spies for their dad.  I am also concerned of him tracking where we are via cell phones. When their cell phones would get "lost" he would tell me to use his phone to talk to them. I do not and will not because he will record. 

Do you have your own cell phone? Do you have a landline phone ?  My L had said as long kids have access to a phone to call the other parent or for the parent to call kids. It does not matter what phone. 

So I would say you can use your phone for D to talk to mom and take battery out of D's phone .

But you don't want mom calling you all day... .or for extended periods of times to D.

My h got times and limits on phone use because he would call at all times and stay on the phone for hours.

Print out phone records and highlight the calls. To / from length of time mom keeps D on the phone.

I agree my SO's uBPDxw also had their daughters spy on dad... .go through his things, read his text messages, even report the contents of his refrigerator!  So it could be used as a tool or a way to track people.

My SO's uBPDxw did get both daughters cell phones and I have always felt that it was more about having 24 hour a day access, a tool for enmeshment if you will or of control.  The girls have been trained that they must always immediately respond to their mother when she calls, a parent must alway have access to their children, it's rude not to answer, and there will be an emotional toll to pay if you don't answer.  It is nice for the girls to have phones to talk and text their friends but there is a high price to pay and that is the non-stop texting and calls from their mother as well as the emotional punishment if they don't answer.

So I would refuse the cell phone SD is 6 even under normal circumstances I would say that is young for a cell phone and like for my SO's D's it can become like a ball and chain of emotional abuse. 

I'm no lawyer but it seems to me like whirlpoollife said if you have a home phone and you and husband have cell phones the uBPDmom already has access to her D6.

[enlighten me]

Heres another option. You get a phone. Just a basic one that calls and texts and nothing else. As its for emergencies and for her to call mum or visa versa then it doesnt have to be flash. The basic models dont have gps and wont take tracking / monitering software.

Sell it to the ex wife as you dont want daughter to have access to the internet at her age unsupervised and also you dont want her to be mugged for her phone.

You can then put in boundaries that she only calls daughter in an emergency or during certain times.

Daughter having a phone will not stop her being used to spy on you. My ex used my sons for this. I spoke to them and said its not fair on them being used by their mum. As I didnt do it then their mum shouldnt do it. They agreed and have told her they wouldnt do it anymore and she shouldnt ask them to.

[livednlearned]

6 is pretty young for a kid to have a phone. If you said no for those reasons, it's hard to imagine a court would find fault with you for that.

However, if bio mom does get a phone, make sure it cannot have software installed. I got a phone for my son when he was 10 because I worried his dad would drink during visitation. It was an Android phone. Long story short, I learned that you can install surveillance software on a smartphone for about $125, and not only does it send info back to a remote computer once a day, it can record conversations up to 15 feet away even when the phone is turned off. As long as it had a battery, it could record!

N/BPDx kept finding things out that I hadn't even told S13 and could not figure out how he would know. We don't have any mutual friends, and I don't post anything on social media unless it's for work. I started to take S13's phone and put it in the garage   and then gave it to him when he went to his dad's.

I got so paranoid that I hired a forensic IT investigator to sweep the phone. They look for a large audio file that sends data usually once a day at midnight so the info is there to read the next day. They only found one of those files, and for other reasons I decided to not push ahead. But if N/BPDx had installed that software on a phone that I bought, with service I paid for, it's a felony crime.

I've been in court a lot, watching a lot of other cases while waiting for mine, which often had to go last because of the length and complexity. I saw a lot of parents in there bickering about the phone, and even knowing what I know about personality disorders, I could not tell who the problem parent was. My guess is that judges hate phones because they blur the boundaries of "mom's house, dad's house" in ways that no court can really rule on.

If bio mom wants to buy a phone for SD6, be really really really clear about the ground rules. If you don't want it used in your home, then make it clear the phone goes away first thing when SD6 is in the home. Make clear the type of phone (no smart phone), and how it will be used, what will happen if it gets lost, and consequences if bio mom abuses any of your home rules.

You don't want to deal with this issue in court. 

[bravhart1]

One thing I'm sure of is she is not going to allow us to tell her what kind of phone to buy. In fact if we say no smartphone, she will absolutely buy one even if she had not intended to before. She is nothing if not defiant.

I would like to let her send the phone and then ship it on a never ending trip around the globe if truth be told.

I guess we will have to wait and see what becomes of it.

Anyone have any other experience with very young children having cell phones with a BPD?

[bravhart1]

Oh and another thing, if we went out and got SD6 the phone we would pick, no internet etc... .she would absolutely be calling the therapist screaming about how we bought her daughter a phone way too young, and how inappropriate it was and how we were trying to use it to spy on her.

[ForeverDad]

Unfortunately technology - and cell phones in particular - have introduced problems that never existed in decades past.

Back about in 2008 my cell phone died on a July Friday afternoon from a few drops of water while on a rafting trip with my son and his daycare group.  He was with me from Wednesday pm to Monday am.  His mother hadn't called until then so I put a greeting on the phone that the phones had troubles and to call the house phone instead.  Late Sunday night I was curious that she had never called and so checked for messages.  Sure enough, there were 2 or 3 angry messages, "I want to speak with My Son!"  In order to leave a message she had to listen to my greeting.   So Monday morning I called her and let them talk.  At most it could have been 2.5 days.  That was it, right?  Of course not... .

Ex had filed a Contempt case and we had a previously scheduled hearing midweek with a new magistrate who had little patience with either of us.  So of course ex starts off complaining she couldn't call her son for FIVE days.   The hearing started late and so soon the magistrate told us we'd have to come back to finish but "I'll fix the telephone issue now".  Without even asking my side of ex's inaccurate and very distorted story, she made an order replacing "reasonable telephone contact" with "daily telephone contact between 8:00 to 8:30 pm".  That put a crimp into jsut about every evening activity, going to movies, outings religious services, etc.

Immediately the issue of my upcoming vacation to the Rocky Mountains with our son came up.  I told ex we would likely not be in cell range much of the time while we traveled and camped there.  She said, "I get my calls!"

I ended up filing for custody and a year later we were in court for the Change of Circumstances testimony.  Her lawyer quizzed me about my complaint that she was difficult about telephone calls and that I was heading to the mountains again.

Me:    "There are large areas of the mountains we will be traveling in that don't have cell reception."

Ex's L: "How do you know?"

Me:    "I was there a couple years ago."

Ex's L: ":)o you know there isn't reception now?"

Me:    "Surely it isn't much better."

Ex's L: "Have you checked?"

Me:    "I'll see what's available with my carrier.  Can't know for sure without being there."

O, for the good old days where the only phones on vacation were pay phones and I can't imagine people back then required to drop in rolls of quarters daily for calls back to the other parent.  How did it go from a peaceful vacation away from teh hassles of life to being saddled with driving into town at specific times for a phone call that may or may not be answered?  Sadly, if it can be done now then today you're expected to do what was never done before.

Side note... .I was in the old town of Sutter's Creek in California a couple years ago and guess what... .no cell reception downtown!  It is in a small valley and apparently signals didn't reach there.

It was not until late 2013 when I specifically mentioned the telephone hassles to a different magistrate handling my motion for majority time that "reasonable" was restored.

My advice is to keep "reasonable" in the order... .

[bravhart1]

I have grown to detest the word reasonable. Mostly since my husband and I are clearly the only ones who understand its meaning and who are held to that standard. 

You sound like you've been through the ringer with her and her immature antics. I sometimes wonder how quickly the courts would change some of the "rules" if these judges were forced to live in our shoes for just one week.

I've been doing a lot of online reading about "high conflict divorce" and how the courts are in desperate need of a educational "tune-up" in the area. Seems that these NPD/BPD types absolutely love being in court and they really are the ones taking up the courts calendars with all their drama.

There appears to be a lot of kind and thoughtful people out there that being abused by these folks. Not to mention what their poor children are put through :'(

In my perfect fantasy world there would be an outpouring of reason attached to court decisions and lie detector tests done at the start and those trying to deceive would be dealt with VERY harshly.

[livednlearned]

This made me remember something my parenting coordinator said -- she is first and foremost a child psychologist.

She felt it was important that kids spend time with the parents they were with, and was not an advocate of cell phones or other technologies where the kids would be spending time with the other parent. S13 was 11 at the time, so not a toddler where it's probably better to see both parents more often.

She was actually directing that comment to me because I was the one who bought the phone. But later, after N/BPDx threatened her   she told me that she felt he was going to roll over communication boundaries, and it was important that he see her comment directed at both of us, otherwise he wouldn't observe it.

My SO has a S14 who is constantly texting his mom while he's with SO, and even arranged to have his mom come pick him up without either of them notifying SO. He's very enmeshed with biomom. Whatever you start doing, be prepared that it may get worse  

[bravhart1]

One thing I'm a little confused about is the custody order gives her one ten minute phone call during OUR vacation. But no others throughout the year. She goes a week without contact every week, we are Sunday through Friday. Why should MY vacation plans have to include her when my daily life doesn't have to?

[ForeverDad]

My advice is to keep "reasonable" in the order... .

I should clarify that.  My court had taken out 'reasonable' and inserted a draconian replacement that impacted my parenting, activities and vacations.  That's what I meant by keeping the 'reasonable', it wasn't as bad as what the magistrate did.

In general it is not good to have 'reasonable' boilerplate clauses in court orders, the vagueness that helps reasonably normal parents to adjust their schedules does the opposite in high conflict cases, it gives the oppositional parent an opportunity to reinterpret the order whenever they wish and as they wish, in his or her favor, of course.

Why should MY vacation plans have to include her when my daily life doesn't have to?

Perhaps the court assumed that on vacations the children would be away from the other parent longer than during the regular schedule?

[Deb]

One thing I'm a little confused about is the custody order gives her one ten minute phone call during OUR vacation. But no others throughout the year. She goes a week without contact every week, we are Sunday through Friday. Why should MY vacation plans have to include her when my daily life doesn't have to?

Courts have specifically not granted her requests for court ordered phone calls as she has so many issues around boundaries and SD6 needs her space.

So, really, what she's doing is trying to circumvent the court order, yes? If she hasn't been granted regular phone calls, than why should she beallowed to buy a phone to make unlimiyed calls to SD?

[livednlearned]

]Courts have specifically not granted her requests for court ordered phone calls as she has so many issues around boundaries and SD6 needs her space.

So, really, what she's doing is trying to circumvent the court order, yes? If she hasn't been granted regular phone calls, than why should she beallowed to buy a phone to make unlimiyed calls to SD?

That's a good point. What do you think the courts do would if you vetoed the phone based on their prior recommendations?

[bravhart1]

Yes, I see your point. I guess it will really important not to let her change that as we are this month getting a new order/custody schedule based on the evaluation we got back.

She is fighting his recommendation no big surprise. Says he lied about the stuff she said and what happened during her home visit. Imagine this PhD risking his entire career and reputation to get back at her

She must be very important!   

[rarsweet]

Personally I don't have my cellphone on me all the time, it just interferes with real life going on.