Divorcing BPD husband - 16 mos old son

[livednlearned]

FD makes a really good point!

There is some theater to being in court, if it comes to that for you. If your ex comes in slinging mud at you, and you put that same kind of energy into focusing on what's best for the child, that could be a really effective strategy. I'm convinced judges are looking for signs to see who is the most grown-up adult in the room. They see a lot of emotionally immature people who can't solve their way out of a box, that's why they end up in court. If you break that mold and show you can focus on your child, when your ex is focused on you, that's going to show.

If your ex is making every allegation under the sun, and some of them are extreme with nothing to back them up (not to mention he flaked off for 11 months, undermining his own concerns), and you go into court and have your L say, "Your honor, my client is focused on the well-being of the child. That is her number one goal. Mr. BPD cannot move on from the conflict in their marriage and he is at risk of perjuring himself with these false allegations. We propose that Mr. BPD seek alcohol treatment at x facility, and a psych evaluation. We ask for supervised visitation until he has completed his treatment."

[Gloria_Patch]

Foreverdad, I see your point and I've heard that from other lawyers. In the restraining order, I did state the two instances when he yelled at the baby. Also, there was an instance in March, 2014 where I left for 15 min to the store, and the baby was crying uncontrollably. I emailed a therapist that day about the event, and he advised me that my husband was dangerous to me and the baby. I might not be able to use his advice in court unless the therapist testifies, but I can use the email as a personal documentation that this happened on that day. He also came to my apt after we split, and he say my mom feeding the baby through the window. He didn't even look at his son, and glared at my mom and said, "B___".

Also, the baby doesn't know who he is. I heard that could work for temporary supervised visitation.

And, his mother put him on Prozac and Xanax. If he suddenly withdraws from Prozac, I think that could pose a danger. Although I have no evidence of his bipolar diagnosis, they say Prozac actually makes bipolar worst.

Liveandlearned,

I like the way you worded what my lawyer should say. I really need a good lawyer. The lawyer I hired is for the Set Aside Default motion. But, I don't think she hears me.

So, he needs a psych evaluation, but these are hard things to get, from what I hear.

I really need a thorough lawyer. An expert witness such as a psychologist works. But now, we're talking about $$$

[livednlearned]

So, he needs a psych evaluation, but these are hard things to get, from what I hear.

Yes, I think it's hard to get a psych eval right out the gate. Over time, if something happens that warrants it, you can ask. That's what happened in my case. The other option is to ask for a custody evaluation right away, where both parents get psych evals and the custody evaluator comes to both of you.

I really need a thorough lawyer. An expert witness such as a psychologist works. But now, we're talking about $$$

It's going to take some time to understand how court really works. There is what you think happens, and then there is what really happens. For people like us, what really happens is so important because it takes into account how our BPD spouses think and behave.

In my experience, especially when a BPD father is involved, you want your strategy to put a big emphasis on keeping the status quo until he does something to show he wants to be a parent.

Your L needs to have a strategy that focuses on those 11 months. Who abandons their child for 11 months? Only someone with issues. So then your L asks that the court kinda put your ex on probation to show that he's up for the job. I promise you, alcohol + BPD will make it nearly impossible for your ex to do what he needs to do.

So yes, you can try to put together a watertight case with experts and all that, but you might not need it. Plus, that's expensive. Court sees a constant stream of humanity wash through its courtroom every day, and the stories are so awful it can make them a bit numb. What is different is when someone comes in and says, "The dad wasn't involved, he has some issues, he had these DUIs, he's still slinging mud at the mom, but you know what? We think he can be rehabilitated. But we want to be cautious and go slow because the minor child is an infant and his well-being is of paramount importance here. Let's give Mr. BPD an opportunity to show he is willing to clean up his act and be a good dad." Then he gets supervised visitation while he does his classes or gets substance abuse treatment.

The thing we know is that pwBPD aren't going to seek treatment and do what a reasonable person would do in this situation. That's alarming to court. It's really strange that a father who wants so desperately to see his child won't do a 6 week treatment program, or go to his anger management classes. But pwBPD won't do that, at least not consistently, because it's shameful. And they are victims in the belief system at the core of their disorder. It would take a lot of intensive therapy, plus the will to get better -- and that is often lacking by the time they are in court as part of a high-conflict custody battle.

It seems like there are some BPD dads who want to get the victim ticket so they can wriggle out of the hard work of parenting. You make sure the bar is high for him to participate and he will interpret that as "I got screwed by court." You and the court share the role of being the punitive parent who victimized him.  

[ForeverDad]

Bipolar is treated with medications.  As I understand it, there is a physical imbalance that they can address more or less.  However, Borderline is one of the Personality Disorders.  This is not solely a chemical imbalance.  Yes, meds can help moderate the behaviors but they are not a fix.  That's why long term therapy is not just important, it is crucial and essential for a measure of recovery.

So why is he getting meds for Bipolar and not Borderline?  Historically the professionals have found it easier to have sessions covered by insurance with Bipolar rather than Borderline.  Probably too Bipolar doesn't have the stigma that BPD does.  In some ways they're similar, hence all the people getting the Bipolar label.  Also, we're not professionals, for all we know he might be co-morbid with both.

The key is not to go into court thinking that all you have to do is Play Doctor.  (Even if you were a doctor, it wouldn't be ethical for you to treat someone in your own family anyway, it would have to be done by an emotionally neutral professional.)  If he has a diagnosis, fine, it might mean something.  So would a history of hospitalizations, evaluations, etc.  But don't make getting a diagnosis your prime concern.  Courts focus their attention on law, case law, their rules and procedures... .and especially the behaviors... .so should we.

So while you can request anger management classes, counseling or therapy, they won't fix his behaviors unless he is really and truly working on himself for the long haul.  So court may order some classes or evaluations but will likely deal with him as he is.  You would do well to be prepared for that future - dealing with him as he is.  Likely it will come down to getting the best orders you can get from the very beginning.  Over time he may flub up and look bad or the court may eventually figure him out over the years but still it is better to get the best order you can from the start.  It won't be a perfect order, there will still be holes where he can obstruct, delay and create chaos.  But at least it will be manageable.

[Gloria_Patch]

Foreverdad, I suspect he is borderline.  But he was diagnosed with bipolar. I heard also that men who are borderline tend to het diagnosed with bipolar. But I'm not trying to diagnose him really. But I wonder if I may have an argument. For example, "Look, a doctor had diagnosed him as bipolar. His mother has him illegally prescribed Proxac and Xanax. I don't know what role these chemical may play on his brain. Can you please order him a psych evaluation? If he is taking the Prozac, he obviously thinks he has a mental illness. He needs a professional diagnosis." Right? No? I don't know.

Liveandlearned, I read somewhere that custody evaluators could be dangerous. But I agree with setting the bar high. And he won't rise to the occasion. Aside from BPD, alcoholism itself is a haze of blaming, denial, and manipulation. On a different board, a man who was a recovering alcoholic advised a woman to not make visitation easy on him, because the disease is detrimental to the child and the man probably won't recover for another 10 yrs. Seriously,  my ex husband had three DUIs. For 5 years, he didn't have a license or car. And once he did, he started driving drunk again! It's crazy. I stopped drinking 2.5 years ago, but I stopped drinking and driving 10 yrs ago. I was in an AA mtg once and this lady was crying bc she had killed her nephew. My son cannot be his rock bottom.

It really is abandonment due to drinking. I had another lawyer suggest that.

[rarsweet]

How about those meds mixed with alcohol?

[Gloria_Patch]

Yes, both meds are not supposed to mix well with alcohol. Especially, Xanax. With his experience with addiction, no psychiatrist would ever prescribe him Xanax. And we're not talking about a 10 yr old child here who can pick up the phone and call mom if something is wrong. This is a baby that needs constant monitoring. Most daycares do not even take children that age because of the difficulty.

[rarsweet]

OK about the meds... .is there a proscription on the bottle? Every state has some kind of board that youcan report proscription abuse. Also you could report his mother.

[Gloria_Patch]

I know . The prescriptions are from another state.  Some of the bottles are in the name of a stomach doctor. I doubt the doctor was aware. He would not risk his license. Some of the bottles are prescribed by a nurse who had written a Dr. In front of her name, which is illegal. Even a psychiatrist cannot prescribe medicine to a patient for over a year without seeing him.

However, I try to stay away from practices of revenge. If the mother tries to be his supervisoe or gets close to the baby, I may report her. She can ruin her own son's life, but not mine.

What kind of mother prescribes her son an addictive medication when he was trying to be sober. One time, he told me she offered him wine. And he said, "Why would she do that?"

Personally, I believe there are skeletons in the closet. And as long as he's drunk, they will stay there.

[livednlearned]

My ex is also bipolar/BPD -- and an alcoholic. And what really pushed me out of the marriage was when he started mixing prescription drugs. First Chantix, then Ambien, for a while Wellbutrin.

I think those meds mixed with a non neurotypical brain can wreak havoc. But when my ex "quit" the underlying BPD was still there, what my L referred to as dry drunk. And even though our custody order stipulated that he could not drink before or during visitation, he did. He had a psychotic episode one night while S13 was in the house (11 at the time) and I nearly had a full-blown nervous breakdown.

I feel you on this mixture of cluster A and B + alcohol and meds. And you have a young baby.

If it costs you money now, it's worth it. You will end up in court paying to keep your child safe no matter what, so setting the foundation now is in your favor. I settled for meh in the beginning and it dragged on for 4 years. I wish I had had more of a backbone when I started.

And yes -- custody evaluators can be bad. So can judges. And lawyers. So can psychiatrists. And parenting coordinators. The best you can do is be the one choosing the CEs, or whatnot and do your homework to figure out if they're good, and especially ethical. Come here and ask every question that crosses your mind -- chances are someone has some experience. People here have had awful experiences with parenting coordinators. I've heard them called petty tyrants, trash cans for money, awful things. But mine was amazing. She was a child psychologist first and foremost, and actually trains PCs. She took her ethics training very seriously and ordered my ex to get a psych eval the first time she met with him.

There is no silver bullet to any of this, and of course, it can all come down to the judge. But good things do happen, and fair and reasonable rulings are made. You prepare for the worse -- really, really prepare -- and you hope for the best.

[ForeverDad]

But I wonder if I may have an argument. For example, "Look, a doctor had diagnosed him as bipolar. His mother has him illegally prescribed Proxac and Xanax. I don't know what role these chemicals may play on his brain. Can you please order him a psych evaluation? If he is taking the Prozac, he obviously thinks he has a mental illness. He needs a professional diagnosis."

That sounds reasonable.  Do try to tie it into his future role as parent, how much authority he should have, how much parenting he should have and whether there should be limits or restrictions set.

I wasn't saying not to seek a diagnosis or a better diagnosis.  Just that you can't do it and a court could decide that a diagnosis alone may mean less than you think.  I recall my own case.  It was so clear to me which PDs fit my ex... .every one of the Paranoid traits and most of the Borderline traits.  Yet my excellent Custody Evaluator stated in the first session, "I'm not here to diagnose, I'm here to make recommendations on custody and parenting."  His report was excellent, he did everything - and did it well - except diagnose.  To my knowledge, my ex hasn't been diagnosed.  And no one has asked me.

I hope you have some of the bottles, or photos of them.  Documentation is important.  Claims can very easily be viewed as hearsay and effectively ignored or set aside.

[Gloria_Patch]

Liveandlearned, wow. I can't believe the emotional fear that caused you and youe son at the time. It's so crazy how they sort of know they have a mental illness, they definitely know they are alcoholics, and then they play with prescription meds to top it off.

I was thinking if another motive he may have and that his mother may have pushed him to file so that she could get to the baby. Besides the rage and false allegations she loves to do, I have an eerie feeling about her. I think over half of borderlines have experienced childhood sexual abuse. My husband says he "lost his innocence young." I believe if she actually doesn't physically abuse in a sexual way, she at least introduces young children to sexual ideas early.

I'm hiring a new lawyer today. My position is to focus on the alcohol and meds and gather evidence for that. My second strongest point is the abandonment.

I do fear the whole court system.

Foreverdad, I do have the pill bottles. And I think I have a text of him saying he will go to AA and therapy, so that may be an admission of sorts.

But, maybe I should report the mother. She is the head of the snake.

[livednlearned]

But, maybe I should report the mother. She is the head of the snake.

Your L is going to filter a lot of this, and it will be 80% theater, and 20% hard, cold facts. By theater, I mean that your L will be objecting to things, and the judge will sustain or overrule, and a bunch of things where Ls try to get around the legal technicalities. You can't include hearsay, for example. But they do, because that's the persuasive part of being in court.

The grandmother is beside the point to a court of law. She has no legal authority, she is not a parent.

And if you don't get the right ruling right out of the gate, don't lose hope. The real thing happening in court, despite being about the well-being of the child, is to put as much problem-solving back on the you and your ex. Research apparently shows that people are more likely to follow a court order that they work out together than one that the judge orders. Since you are new to the system, the judge is going to give you two a slap on the wrists and tell you to work together. What's going in your favor is that your child is young and you're the mother. Even in a 50/50 default state, there is going to be bias. Your ex played into that bias when he didn't try to see your child for 11 months, but he can also show that he's very committed by showing up and having a good lawyer who makes the case that you denied access. It's really hard to predict how it will play. So much comes down to the judge.

But in all likelihood, your ex cannot handle the stresses of parenting. Make sure you add something to the order that says if the dad can't take care of the child, you are the first person who will care for your baby. Otherwise, your ex will get his mom involved. Get your L to write the order -- and add that clause. Some judges will micro-manage this process, but a lot seem to leave it up to the Ls. It will cost you money, but it will give you control. Your ex will probably not catch it.

Then, when he hands your baby to his mother, you can file a contempt of court. That's when grandma becomes a person of interest in the court proceedings.

These cases are not one-time events. I wish they were. 

[ForeverDad]

I had to work and couldn't personally care for my son every minute.  When my ex started taking career training and eventually started working, she couldn't either.  So we used daycare.  I had two factors to deal with... .

• She of course didn't want my family to stand in my place.  (That's your situation, you have concerned about MIL taking over his parenting.  Your concerns are valid, my ex's claims weren't.)



• Also, I knew that she would try to commandeer my own parenting time between end of school and when I got off work.  I wanted my time to remain my time and just as importantly avoid any extra exchangers and encounters with her.

So in my order (a settlement minutes before the Trial) I made sure daycare was declared the equivalent of school.  So she wasn't able to march into school as the children were leaving and demand our child on my parenting time simply because I wasn't the one picking him up from school.

For the first few years we had ROFR - Right of First Refusal.  What that meant was that if either of us couldn't care for our child for more than X hours, then we had to offer that time to the other parent first before seeking other child care arrangements.  (That's why I had daycare declared as equivalent to school, to reduce the demands she could make on me.)  You may want to consider a variation of that concept depending on what amount of parenting the court allows him to have as well as your specific circumstances with work, daycare, ex, ex's MIL, etc.

The above refinements worked for me, until my son got older and I got custody.  Your issues are a little different and so it probably isn't a good strategy for you, not without tweaks.  But this example demonstrates that if you ponder the issues, develop strategies to address your concerns and explore the potential ramifications, then you can avoid many problems, conflicts and confrontations.  Not all of course, but many.

[Gloria_Patch]

Oh, I like that idea. He probably won't catch it. That keeps the baby safe from grandma. I'll tell my lawyer when it gets to that.

I hope this is a one-time thing. It will be if I win supervised visitation. The reason I say this is because I can't imagine him spending money on anything but himself. So, in the long run, he may give. Although, his mother might. But she's a little greedy also.

It is really key that I win this time around.

What do you think about mediation. I do not want to be in the same room as him. There has been a history oc domestic violence. And, I don't want to get in mud slinginf contest. But if I request a different room due to domestic violence, it might trigger accusations toward me. Should I just suck it up, sit in the room with him and focus on his alcohol?

[livednlearned]

The pros of mediation in the same room: you hear everything that is being said.

Cons: everything gets watered down and it can be hard to understand what is being offered, what was said.

Mediators can be good/not good. A good one will recognize immediately if your ex is narcissistic and then validate his feelings without agreeing to his demands.

Most mediators, and many lawyers, pride themselves on reaching settlement or consensus. They don't necessarily pride themselves on getting what you want. So if you think your have a very strong backbone, then you might do ok in the same room with your ex. If not, and there was DV, then separate rooms are good.

I did mind in a separate room and I'm glad I did.

[Gloria_Patch]

Should I bring my documentation and evidence to the mediation or too soon to introduce?

[livednlearned]

Should I bring my documentation and evidence to the mediation or too soon to introduce?

It might be different for you... .but my guess is that your bottom line is too triggering for him to come to any reasonable resolution in mediation. He is not going to want supervised visitation and lose custody. In that sense, mediation is not likely to work. Mediation requires some give and take. But if you treat mediation as a way to see what he and his L are thinking, then there is no need to bring any documentation or evidence.

That's what lawyers often do with depositions. They want to see how you or the opposing client deal with interrogation under pressure. If you are credible, organized, and reasonable, and their client is none of those things, they aren't going to want to go to trial. Mediation can work a similar way, especially if you are all in the same room.

Most reasonable lawyers try to settle in mediation, so there will be a palpable pressure for you to give your ex something that he wants. So your question is tactical and strategic more than anything.

If you have strong evidence, the opposing L may realize that this thing has to be settled out of court because the judge will back up your request. If your evidence is not strong, the L will see what cards you have, and decide to prepare the case to take apart your arguments.

Hope that makes sense.

[Gloria_Patch]

For this one, lawyers won't be present.

I feel like saying more, but I don't feel very strong today.

My son had fun in baby class, an now when I see him healthy and free and happy, I feel this dread that it could all be ruined.

I need to stay positive, I know.

[livednlearned]

I feel this dread that it could all be ruined.

I know that dread so well.  :'(

Court kinda drags that feeling out.

Stay present with your baby and learn what you can about validation. It will change so much in his life, and yours. It's a positive thing you can focus on while things move slowly through the legal system. Regardless of what happens, you can raise an emotionally resilient child. Doing that made me feel so much more grounded as a parent. I couldn't control the legal stuff, but I could do a lot to make the environment healthy for S13.

There's stuff on validation under tools to the right for quick reading ------------>

[ForeverDad]

Rule #1 in mediation... .you don't have to make a deal, especially when the other is unreasonable demands.  So when in mediation, take some moments before making any commitments to imagine yourself and your feelings -- when walking out the door, the next day, a year down the road -- whether you would reflect back and be satisfied or have substantial regrets.

What I suggested above is to seek a measure of perspective, objectivity.  When in the midst of mediation or settlement talks there is an immense emotional pressure in the moment for us Nice Guys and Nice Gals to agree or settle.  But if your gut tells you it feels wrong, more than just difficult, then listen to it.

I recall when I was in mediation I had a few non-negotiables.  Those were, in effect, my boundaries for what I would accept voluntarily.  Yes, I knew the court with its Authority might order otherwise, if it did then so be it, I would have top abide by it, but I wasn't going to agree to what I felt wasn't right.

For example, when we separated my ex felt I should be only a 'sometimes' dad at most.  When she was at her worst she would say I'd never see my preschooler again.  When not so upset she'd say she would let me see him 'a little'.  Well, domestic court, without any concern about our parenting, ordered I get alternate weekends and an evening in between because I worked a regular 5 day schedule.  So her 'never' and 'sometimes' failed right from the start.  When we were sent to mediation she 'offered' the same ordered temp schedule as a settlement, about 22% parenting time.  I countered for at least 50%.  There we were stuck and the mediator told us not to come back unless we could agree on parenting.  As you can figure, we never went back.

Because the order was favorable to her, she stretched out the divorce as long as she could, from filing to final decree was 23.5 months and the court declined to make any changes to the order during that time.  Or my lawyer never tried hard, I recall the initial Custody Evaluation report recommended she immediately lose her temporary custody but that never happened.  It wasn't until after the final decree that I found out her lawyer had told her she'd probably lose at trial.  That explained why, when I arrived at court on Trial Morning, I was greeted with the news she was finally ready to settle.  We had the entire day reserved for us but we settled by noontime.  She agreed to my minimum of equal time in 'Shared Parenting' -- something unstated but clearly supported by the lawyers and the Custody Evaluator -- but balked at my Boundary that I must be RP - Residential Parent for School Purposes.  After some begging and tears, she relented.  I felt that way because just a few months before she had lost us our son's pediatrician by raging at the staff and thus incurring the subsequent "withdrawal of services".

Yes, Shared Parenting failed, a possibility mentioned in the CE report, but as I look back, I don't regret my stance in mediation or on Trial Day.  They were appropriate at the time.  And it was within my range of acceptability.  I knew mediation would likely fail, I felt Shared Parenting would likely fail too, but more or less things worked out when I held to certain 'boundary' minimums.  More or less, I got workable orders or settlements.  You can too.  When 'in the moment' under the pressure of mediation or negotiations try to keep a grasp of the overall perspective.

[Gloria_Patch]

Hi Foreverdad, LiveandLearned, and rarsweet.

I have updates.

The mediation went well and quickly. I asked for separate rooms. The counselor didn't keep me long. I just stated that I wouldn't be able to make any kind of deal on that day.

And, the judge declined his motion to set aside. So I will be granted my judgement for full legal and physical custody and no visitation... Of course, he may file a request for modification, but at least, it will be more of an uphill battle for him.

I am eating again. I gained 1 pound already. I am taking multi vitamins.

I think what helped in my case was the emails. My lawyer showed the emails to prove he was aware that the case was going to court and that there would be no settlement, so he had no excuse to Default on the matter. But those emails also showed him cursing at me, callin me derogatory names.

My lawyer was good. He seems new and quiet, but he wrote the response well.

So, basically, now, I need to move.

This is his way of making me visit the trauma of the relationship. Every time, I move on and heal, he will always take me to court. Then, I have to revisit the most dreaded fear of humanity which is when a parent's child is in danger.

[livednlearned]

Emails are what helped me in my situation too.

I'm glad you have some closure on this, Gloria_Patch, at least this small part. It's true your ex can file to modify, but he will not only have an uphill battle, it's likely he will  have to do something to demonstrate he has changed. Meaning, your L would likely ask him to attend anger management classes, or get a psych eval. It's not likely your ex will do any of that.

Good to hear that you are gaining weight again, and taking care of your health. 

Are you planning to move out of the state?

[Gloria_Patch]

Thank you for your support through this.

I think I may have to move out of state. Plus, I never planned on living in the state I am in. My ex isn't from this state either.

I