Why can't I let go of the memories?

[workinprogress]

I feel so torn about staying/leaving.  The memories from years gone by keep me here.  Well, those and my kids.

I have such vivid recollections of all we used to do together.  I keep thinking that those days will come back.

As far as the kids go, my youngest son, 15, and I have little adventures together.  We will randomly get in the car and go somewhere.  We always talk a good bit.  Today we went to a hiking trail that was buried in snow in a nearby town.

We talk at great length while driving together.  So, here's me thinking struggling to keep the marriage going, and my son says, "you know, we have a great family.  We have great parents and the kids are great.  How did that happen?" 

He was right.  We have a great family, there is just no intimacy between the husband and wife. 

I guess holding on for the kids is best.  Maybe some sort of miracle will occur?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

This isn't something 15 year olds even want to think about. The family looks great to him. Mom and Dad are nice when he's around. Sex? not the parents.

I'm no expert in this, but 10 years is a long time, and I think with time, it gets akward to try to rekindle things. To me, it would be like dating all over again- and you go slowly. One thing that I do miss is that it seems we just get down to business now. I miss the times when it was OK to kiss and wait ( do people do that anymore?). There is probably so much emotional baggage between you both.

Does she really like 50 shades of grey? Maybe you should read it. I'm not joking. It may completely shock her to see you reading it- no pressure, just read it. ( don't let the kids see that ) It might start a conversation.

[workinprogress]

This isn't something 15 year olds even want to think about. The family looks great to him. Mom and Dad are nice when he's around. Sex? not the parents.

I'm no expert in this, but 10 years is a long time, and I think with time, it gets akward to try to rekindle things. To me, it would be like dating all over again- and you go slowly. One thing that I do miss is that it seems we just get down to business now. I miss the times when it was OK to kiss and wait ( do people do that anymore?). There is probably so much emotional baggage between you both.

Does she really like 50 shades of grey? Maybe you should read it. I'm not joking. It may completely shock her to see you reading it- no pressure, just read it. ( don't let the kids see that ) It might start a conversation.

Thanks Notwendy.  You always have great insight.

She would probably be surprised if she saw me reading 50 Shades.  She would probably assume there was a reason behind it. 

We used to have a very spicy love life.  Everything changed when she started hanging around a group of stay at home moms that didn't give their husbands sex.  It seems that these women do their best to wreck everyone's lives.

Thanks for the tip.  I keep trying and trying.  Maybe its time to do more for myself?  I have done some type of work out everyday this week and I've been dabbling in some meditation.

Also, an idea came to me for a new business.  I am doing the initial groundwork for that now. 

It seems to me that they only want you when you get stronger and pull away.  Maybe that is the key to what I need to do?

[workinprogress]

I did ask her tonight if she wanted to end things.  I told her that we could end it now if she wanted.

She said that she didn't say that she wanted that.  She just said that she wasn't able to be what I needed her to be.

Of course, she has been saying that for 10 years now.

The time she did come around a few years back I had given up on the marriage.  I totally went my own way, and unfortunately, fell prey to a seductive woman.  So, I guess I just need to let it go and see what happens.

[still_in_shock]

I find myself thinking about him 24/7. I obsessively read about the BPD and all their traits trying to understand what he's done, what he feels and what's going on in his head. I realize the latter is getting beyond healthy - how much I read and dig all the online forums and information sources, as if me getting to know more about the disorder would turn the time back and things will get back to how they were when we first met (that is beautiful beyond belief, just like fairytale).

[OffRoad]

The memories are the toughest. Especially since, in my case, the memories are good, but at this time in H's mind we've NEVER had a good time together. Ever. How he figures we stayed together for 20 years having a lousy time is beyond me. And no one wants to put the kids through the misery of a divorce, unless there is no other choice.

I was wondering, when she said she wasn't able to be be what you needed her to be, did you ask her why she felt that way? (Would that have set something off?)  I was wondering if it was possible to try to start over. Ask her on dates, no pressure. It would be nice to know if that could work.

[louisnorman]

 For me learning more about BPD helps me to understand why the marriage went the way it did. I also have a few good memories but now I am not sure they were not lies, lies from her and lying to myself.  I have put distance between herself and I but she called a few days ago needing help I told her no I can not do it anymore, It was one of the hardest things I ever did.

[Notwendy]

She just said that she wasn't able to be what I needed her to be.

Of course, she has been saying that for 10 years now.

The time she did come around a few years back I had given up on the marriage.  I totally went my own way, and unfortunately, fell prey to a seductive woman.  So, I guess I just need to let it go and see what happens.

I wonder what she means by that? Do you think it has anything to do with the time you were with someone else? She may think that if she was enough for you, that wouldn't have happened. Even if it was at a time you two were separated, or whatever reason, "I'm not enough" is a common feeling to people with BPD and feelings are facts.

Did she feel rejected by something?  My H often has felt rejected for things that had nothing to do with him. Any time I am not interested in sex- tired, up with small children- doesn't matter- it starts that tape in his head. I wish I had known this back then when the kids were little and he painted me black. The times when I said "no" were rare, but it didn't matter. Once was enough. So then, I reversed to just doing it to keep the peace. That, and his criticisms took a toll on my sense of passion. Although it appeared to me at the time that he was rejecting me, he was somehow feeling rejected, and I had no idea. It may look to you as if your wife isn't interested, but she may be having feelings of not being enough for you, or inadequate, or rejected- even if there isn't a logical reason.

"The time she did come around a few years back I had given up on the marriage"    I can relate to this although it was not intentional and I had no idea what was going on. My H was more introverted, passive in the r/s. I was more outgoing and emotionally expressive in general. I think I was doing most of the emotional "work" in the r/s- sex didn't involve him putting his ego on the line as I was affectionate in general and he could just roll with it. Eventually though, it began to feel one sided to me. If we had a disagreement, he would give me the ST. This would work well for him as I would pursue him even more. When the kids came along, I simply didn't have the emotional energy to devote to pursuing his affection, although I was still a loving wife and I enjoyed the physical side of the marriage. At some point he had  painted me black and those were awful years. I gave up on the marriage and focused on the kids. I didn't leave, there was nobody else, but eventually, I got depressed. It was then that he came around and pursued me.

I was over the moon, and it felt like another honeymoon. Yet there was a strange quality to his suddenly becoming Mr. attentive, romantic, sensitive, after years of verbal abuse and wanting nothing to do with me. It was too "over the top" with him sending me flowers at work, romantic notes, all the things he refused to do even when we were dating as he would say " I'm not a mushy type of guy". He seemed like someone I didn't know.

Yes, I was happy about this change, but I kept asking " why did you treat me like you did, how can you switch on and off," Now I see this as splitting me white/black, the push pull, but it was confusing at the time. Then, after what seemed like a constant honeymoon for several weeks, I was not in the mood. I said "no"- once- and he flew into a huge rage, and with that, something shifted for me.

I've had all kinds of counseling to find out the reasons for the issues in my marriage. Although we have had our ups and downs, there are far more reasons to stay together than to not. My H has not painted me black like those years again, and he has made some efforts to not do that. I have done a lot of personal work through co-dependency. It's strange- you can't let go of the great memories, but to me, the memory that is hard to let go of is the nightmare years of raising small children while my H was verbally abusive and cruel. Now I see even the good memories as me participating in a co-dependent relationship.

Now, I think of my r/s as moving towards something more mature and stable, because even the good memories- the "highs" were part of the same pattern that brought the "lows".

[workinprogress]

Quote from: workinprogress on Yesterday at 08:36:28 PM

She just said that she wasn't able to be what I needed her to be.

Of course, she has been saying that for 10 years now.

The time she did come around a few years back I had given up on the marriage.  I totally went my own way, and unfortunately, fell prey to a seductive woman.  So, I guess I just need to let it go and see what happens.


I wonder what she means by that? Do you think it has anything to do with the time you were with someone else? She may think that if she was enough for you, that wouldn't have happened. Even if it was at a time you two were separated, or whatever reason, "I'm not enough" is a common feeling to people with BPD and feelings are facts. "

I cheated after years of her telling me that she wasn't able to be what I needed her to be.  Of course, she is the one who set up those expectations, not me.

As for feeling rejected, she could have.  I know I tried my best to keep her happy, and it was impossible.  She wanted more money, yet she complained that I worked too much, I only got a couple of hours of sleep every night.  Plus, she had endless tasks and projects around the house for "us" to do.  "Us" meant me, btw.  In some weird sort of way, I think I loved being needed so much.  I felt like a sappy white knight.

"I also have a few good memories but now I am not sure they were not lies, lies from her and lying to myself. "

I also feel now that it all could have been lies.


"I was wondering, when she said she wasn't able to be be what you needed her to be, did you ask her why she felt that way? (Would that have set something off?)  I was wondering if it was possible to try to start over. Ask her on dates, no pressure. It would be nice to know if that could work."

You know, that's a good question.  She was all over me sexually for the first 7 or 8 years we were together.  Then things turned off overnight.  Of course, at that point she had the kids and I had built the house.  After that, she would tell me that sex wasn't important to her.  She told me "things change get over it."

She also said "I can't be what you want me to be."  

It wasn't just sex either.  She would get angry if I even tried to hug her.

I think I was very patient all of these years.  I have tried just dating her and taking things slow.

Well, it's been 15 years of very little sexual activity, and nothing in the last five.

I think that's taking it slow enough.  

[Notwendy]

One principle that I have read is that the partner with the lowest desire has control over when it will happen. It isn't unusual for two people to have different levels of desire. I think in emotionally healthy relationships, couples can arrive at an agreement. I think they can also accept that their partners are humans, in human bodies, and at times, may have less desire- childbirth, stress at work- and they are able to be flexible about this without taking it personally. Not my H. No means " I hate you, you are worthless, I'm in love with someone else and we are NEVER having sex again. " no matter what the reason.

Still, control seemed to play a role. If I pursued him, he would say no to me. That gave him control. When I am not interested in sex momentarily, he had said " now you are calling the shots".  Sex is so wrapped up in emotional baggage that it seems wierd either way- to do it so he doesn't rage or to refuse to do it are really both sides of the coin because it is in a way, controlling the circumstances and playing it safe. Passion between two people requires the opposite- taking emotional risks by being vulnerable ( and with a strong enough sense of self to handle the possible consequence of being rejected) , accepting the other person for who they are, and not being controlling but accepting that what happens is possibly unpredictable. This is a tall order for both people with BPD and co-dependency.

People do a behavior because the payoff is higher to them than the cost- even if the cost is high. This is the reason behind an addiction- the temporary relief from painful feelings is a better payoff than the destruction an addiction causes people. So what would be the payoff for your wife not participating in sex. I can think of a few, since I took the payoff in my r/s: I felt safe. If I didn't desire my H, then he could not hurt me anymore by painting me black and rejecting me. Control: If I just did it to keep him quiet, then I would have some peace and quiet.

One of the things my T is working on us is to say yes when you mean yes, and no when you mean no. She is trying to get my H to see that every time I give in to keep the peace, he isn't getting what he really wants. When I started T, I was terrified to say no to my H because of the rage that would follow. She is encouraging me to stand firm in the face of that rage. It isn't easy.

There's a book- the Passionate Marriage that gets into these kinds of dynamics that just kill passion in a r/s. However, like most things, if I want change, it has to start with me.

So- what is the payoff for you? It may be similar to mine. Things are more peaceful when you leave her alone. For her, it is likely to be control. You can't force her. It's her body. However, she is forcing you to accept a sexless marriage. I don't suggest that you cheat, or force her. Both of these are violations.

I could not make positive changes in me until I took the focus on to myself and away from looking how to fix my marriage or fix my H. It took personal work and  self care. You feel like a sappy white knight. Well, I felt like a doormat. These are not sexy roles. I don't have an exact answer for you, but according to Passionate Marriage, the more differentiated we are ( read- less co-dependent, more emotionally mature) the more we have to bring to a r/s.

I still think it would be interesting if you did read 50 Shades of Grey and leave the book lying around ( out of sight of the kids) . She'd certainly notice and might ask " what are you reading that for?". You could laugh and say " I wanted to know what you liked so much about this so maybe we could do that too" then say nothing else... .Likely nothing will happen, but it may surprise her. I'm not suggesting you do this to be manipulative or to expect an outcome, but as a way to make some kind of connection with something she seems interested in.

[NGU]

As more proof that I can relate to almost every post here... .

I still think it would be interesting if you did read 50 Shades of Grey and leave the book lying around

I actually did something similar. I love to write, and used to post city-related articles online. My W tore into me about it, saying I was a horrible writer and wasting time because I was nothing more than a glorified tourist.

That was when I officially shut down. I left her alone in bed, became matter-of-fact; almost distant, but with a focused attitude.

I told her one day that I had become a mod at a forum (let's just say it's related to activities that happen in 50 Shades), with the promise of getting admin-software experience. She said nothing. But it seems like it got her thinking. That, in combination with my new attitude, my growing BPD knowledge and our T, seems to be helping a little.

I think I just over-shared.

[Michelle27]

I struggle with memories too.  Both the good and the bad.  In my case, my husband was very high functioning with very few red flags for about 7 years.  The cracks appeared when we discovered his son from his first marriage had been subjected to horrible abuse that had gone on for years.  It brought up for him the abuse from his own childhood and he just couldn't cope.  Rages were 3-6 weeks apart for years and I kept a bag of overnight clothes and stuff in my car for years for when I had to leave.  I walked on eggshells for so many years before understanding what I was dealing with. 

Now that he came very close to losing me due to me working on myself and deciding I wasn't going to tolerate what I was living with for so long, he is working overtime.  Flowers, gifts, even a weekend away this past week.  I should be happy, right?  No... .all I can think of is that if he can flip a switch like this, he could have worked on it all along during the bad years.  I am left with PTSD over the crap that I put up with and my fears of another rage. 

Memories, good and bad, are all affecting how open emotionally I can be with him, and he knows it.  It's killing him, but I can't open myself up when I just don't feel "safe" to do so.  I've committed to a certain length of time in which I have boundaries in place and then I will have to decide if the bad memories outweigh the good.  Meanwhile, I flip flop constantly... .within one day I can see that we might make it and hours later I'm thinking that I'm not sure I can cope long term with the uncertainty if he can pull off what I need from him.  I guess time will tell.

[Notwendy]

"Now that he came very close to losing me due to me working on myself and deciding I wasn't going to tolerate what I was living with for so long, he is working overtime.  Flowers, gifts, even a weekend away this past week.  I should be happy, right?  No... .all I can think of is that if he can flip a switch like this, he could have worked on it all along during the bad years.  I am left with PTSD over the crap that I put up with and my fears of another rage. "

I completely understand. My H did lose me, to depression  after trying so hard to make him happy and not getting much attention in return. I kept up my functioning for the kids, but completely blanked on him and the r/s. I only had so much energy to take care of them. They were little and so, I was able to hold it together ( barely) for them. At the time, I had no idea what was going on or why my H treated me so poorly despite my making so much effort. Like yours it was a switch- and I was painted black.

Then, when I think he woke up to the fact that he was losing me in term of the marriage, he did the same thing- Mr. Wonderful, flowers, everything. Like you, I was puzzled by the fast on/off switch. I kept thinking "what kind of loving husband verbally abuses his pregnant wife, and then the mother of his children?" I also have some PTSD as well as the awareness that if he could turn it on so fast, so could he turn it off.

He was so frustrated with his efforts to get "his loving wife" back. He would say "look, I'm being good, now you have to go back to where we were" as if his efforts would erase what was years of what felt like hell to me. What he didn't realize was that I had given up on the marriage years before he noticed. However, at the time, I had small dependent children. It was better to be there with him. There was no physical abuse and he was good to them.

Ironically, although there were relapses,and the crazy love fest stopped ( it wasn't real to me) it didn't go back to those days. Although he wanted the "old me" back, he can't get her back because that kind of love was co-dependent. It made him feel good. I let him walk all over me. He knows he can't. Also, the kids are older, and he cares too much about them to mess up their lives. In addition, my self esteem grew with the time I spent in recovery. The hardest part for me is "attraction". He wants me to feel that attraction I felt for him, but I don't feel that for anyone. I see it as co-dependent attraction and I don't feel that. I just don't know what I will feel instead of that. I am still trying to figure out how to be me.

[Michelle27]

"Now that he came very close to losing me due to me working on myself and deciding I wasn't going to tolerate what I was living with for so long, he is working overtime.  Flowers, gifts, even a weekend away this past week.  I should be happy, right?  No... .all I can think of is that if he can flip a switch like this, he could have worked on it all along during the bad years.  I am left with PTSD over the crap that I put up with and my fears of another rage. "

I completely understand. My H did lose me, to depression  after trying so hard to make him happy and not getting much attention in return. I kept up my functioning for the kids, but completely blanked on him and the r/s. I only had so much energy to take care of them. They were little and so, I was able to hold it together ( barely) for them. At the time, I had no idea what was going on or why my H treated me so poorly despite my making so much effort. Like yours it was a switch- and I was painted black.

Then, when I think he woke up to the fact that he was losing me in term of the marriage, he did the same thing- Mr. Wonderful, flowers, everything. Like you, I was puzzled by the fast on/off switch. I kept thinking "what kind of loving husband verbally abuses his pregnant wife, and then the mother of his children?" I also have some PTSD as well as the awareness that if he could turn it on so fast, so could he turn it off.

He was so frustrated with his efforts to get "his loving wife" back. He would say "look, I'm being good, now you have to go back to where we were" as if his efforts would erase what was years of what felt like hell to me. What he didn't realize was that I had given up on the marriage years before he noticed. However, at the time, I had small dependent children. It was better to be there with him. There was no physical abuse and he was good to them.

Ironically, although there were relapses,and the crazy love fest stopped ( it wasn't real to me) it didn't go back to those days. Although he wanted the "old me" back, he can't get her back because that kind of love was co-dependent. It made him feel good. I let him walk all over me. He knows he can't. Also, the kids are older, and he cares too much about them to mess up their lives. In addition, my self esteem grew with the time I spent in recovery. The hardest part for me is "attraction". He wants me to feel that attraction I felt for him, but I don't feel that for anyone. I see it as co-dependent attraction and I don't feel that. I just don't know what I will feel instead of that. I am still trying to figure out how to be me.

You are exactly right.  I think I was codependent for a long time too.  I look back now, and I realize that I started detaching probably out of self preservation rather than a planned effort, and also started working on me to focus on something other than my hurts.  On some level, I'm not proud to admit, I gave up.  Now that he's working on it, I just don't think I can get those loving feelings back that easily.  I'm trying, but it feels forced right now.

Even after working on myself for the past 3 years, I didn't realize until things came to a head a few months ago how badly my self esteem had slipped into the gutter.  I'm working on getting that back again. 

Like you, I am afraid the "good" partner I'm seeing now is going to magically disappear just like the scary raging one did.  I want to believe that he wants to fix it, but he has said that before and just manipulated a handful of therapists and made things worse with how he presented our "issues".  He admits now he didn't really want help, he was just faking it to get me off his back and then he could manipulate the therapist to believe he was "all better".  A lifetime of coping skills when he was high functioning made this possible. 

I'm 45 now.  I know at this stage of my life I am worth more than the uncertainty of waiting for a rage to appear so I can go into action with tools and do what has to be done to make things not get ugly.  I want a "normal" relationship.  But, for my own self respect, I have to give it this one last shot.

[Notwendy]

I found that my H wanted to change, but was not as willing, or perhaps could not, do the internal work that would bring about the changes. He could "hold it together" and be nice, but that easily triggered rage was still there and would inevitably show itself. This is why the super romantic behavior had an artificial feel to it. Yet, I do give him credit for changing to the extent that he did not return to the days where he was as cold and mean. The other side of that was that I did not return to the person I was- who gave so much attention in exchange for very little.

I did feel badly that he was making so much effort to get back to that stage with me, and I could not do it. There were times he considered that it wasn't worth him making so much effort. He expected it to work so much faster- as if I could turn on and off that fast as well. But one thing I noticed was that the way he was feeling was based more on his internal state than mine. I got the sense that he didn't know how I felt as much as how he was feeling. I could be madly in love with him and he could be feeling rejected. Or I could be preoccupied with something and he might be fine. I had therapy, read volumes on relationships. I think I let go of the ideas I had about love being some wonderful passionate feeling and learned to know that love is a choice, and I chose to love him. It's a quieter state, maybe not what he likes all the time, but it is what I can do.

It took a lot more work before I could not fear the rages. Co-dependency 12 step groups and working with a sponsor helped me deal with those better. He does treat me better, and rages less, perhaps because I don't reinforce that behavior like I used to, and also because I believe he isn't happy behaving like that either. It took a long time in couples T for him to even talk about his family issues, but I think he is starting to make some connection between his father's shaming him and his emotional triggers.