Leaving for one kid but staying for the other?

[StrongDadOf2]

I'm working through the decision making post (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111890.msg1099713#msg1099713) and got to the part about deciding based on the kids' needs (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=97979.0;all)

This is the part I am stumbling over -  [I need]: "To understand what kind of damage such inappropriate or abusive interactions may have on the child's entire life."

My son (S11) has a severe anxiety disorder that is exacerbated by her parenting (or lack thereof, now).  S11's therapist says no progress can be made with him until my wife is more "loving and consistent, or gone." She does not even hug him anymore, and most interactions are terse.  I'm able to do the heavy lifting with his immediate care and safety, but long term does look dismal if I stay.

My wife has a decent relationship with our daughter (D3), though is inconsistent with her care, too.  I'm warned by my son's therapist, my therapist, and our couple's therapist to watch out for signs of demonizing her as she grows older and more independent.  My wife tends to use D3 as en extension of herself (if mom needs calcium supplements the D3 must need them, too!  If mom doesn't like taking Benedryl, then D3 must not like it, too!).  My wife is good at keeping D3 safe, taking her around to play with friends, taking her to gym classes, etc.  She does none of that for S11.

In talking with lawyers, I'll definitely be able to have sole custody of S11, since she repeatedly says she would "rather be dead than be his mom."  D3, though will most likely be a shared custody arrangement.  That makes leaving a bit tougher for me to take, since I can't completely trust my wife with D3 in the long term.

So - what could I expect long-term?  Am I strong enough to shield S11 and D3 from her and be the emotional leader in our relationship?  Many days I struggle with just doing one of these tasks.

[Notwendy]

Considering the cost and logistics of leaving- it would take time, kids in two different homes, in court over custody, - that would be many years for your older child to be in an uncertain situation. I am concerned about how this would affect his anxiety, as well as what your wife might do in r/s to him.

What does he want? I think he is old enough to express his wishes and be part of any decision- but is there the option for him to be in a place that is less stressful for him. Kids need to feel safe and in a stable place, and it doesn't seem like he is in one at the moment. I know it is harder to consider a place with his anxiety issues, but it is also possible that they will improve when he is out of your wife's turmoil. What I am thinking is- some kind of boarding school, theraputic boarding school? They are costly, but compared to lawyers and other costs of separation, it may be relatively less. Some have payment plans.

He has to be included in this, or he will think he is being sent away because he is the problem. Your wife may even tell him that. However, if he fully understands that he isn't the cause of her problems, and he is part of the decision, then it may be a good thing.

My mother blamed her marital issues on me. When I was a young teen, she was in a rage and told me to come see something. She then pulled out a pile of brochures of boarding schools from a closet and screamed "here is the proof that we are planning to send you away!- and then the hurtful " Even your father agrees that we should send you away".

Yes, I was stunned and hurt, but later on, I took a look at them and they sounded wonderful to me. I wanted them to send me away to some place where I could feel safe and happy. Some were in places I would have loved to vistit. I actually kept hoping they would send me. I think I even asked my dad about them. But they didn't.

I know this is a personal family decision, so I would not advise you to do this without consulting therapists and any other considerations that may be personal to your son. I am sharing this since the issue of sending me to a boarding school was raised in my family, and I think I would have considered it.

[StrongDadOf2]

What does he want? I think he is old enough to express his wishes and be part of any decision- but is there the option for him to be in a place that is less stressful for him. Kids need to feel safe and in a stable place, and it doesn't seem like he is in one at the moment. I know it is harder to consider a place with his anxiety issues, but it is also possible that they will improve when he is out of your wife's turmoil. What I am thinking is- some kind of boarding school, theraputic boarding school? They are costly, but compared to lawyers and other costs of separation, it may be relatively less. Some have payment plans.

That is a very tough situation to be in, where you felt as if you were not wanted by either parent.  What helped you cope with that?  Was there another trusted person you went to in those situations?

My son's anxiety issues stem from his adoption experience combined with a biological predisposition for Bi-Polar Disorder (birth mother).  Anxiety and Attachment disorders are hard to separate from each other.  When we adopted him, I thought I was bringing him into a loving and stable environment where he could thrive.  However, less than a year later, my wife had pushed my parents away completely and blamed any martial or stressful issues in the house on our son.  It was not much longer after that where she started completely ignoring him, neglecting him, and raging at him.  She has hugged him 3 times in the last year. 

With S11 unable to completely control his emotions and my wife's uncontrolled emotions, they explode at each other frequently.  He is scared to be alone with her and will wait outside the house until I come home if she's the only one there.

I'm not sure that I can approach the issue of divorce with S11, since the uncertainty of the situation would aggravate the attachment and anxiety issues.  I'll tread very carefully with help from therapists should I make the decision to divorce.

[vortex of confusion]

I too wonder if divorce would aggravate his anxiety. Your wife may not want anything to do with him now. If a divorce were involved, would she try to seek custody or demand time with him as a control tactic?

Go post on the legal board and they can help you think about some of the legal issues that might come up. Often times, there is no rhyme or reason why they do things.

Is there anybody in the family other than you that has a good relationship with your son? If so, would it be possible for him to go visit them and get time away from your wife and get some kind of stability. Is there some kind of a fun camp that he could go to on occasion that is prepared to deal with emotional issues? This is NOT his fault. I know that when I was a kid, my mother and my sister had a horrible relationship. She would get in trouble at school or somewhere and my mother would come unhinged. My dad would make arrangements for my sister to go live with my grandmother for a while. It was confusing for me. Really, any kind of arrangement where kids are split up like that for long periods of time can be confusing.

What kind of a relationship does the 3 year old and 11 year old have? Is the three year old adopted as well?

[Notwendy]

How did I cope? I think it took a toll on my self esteem, but I was thankfully a resilient kid too. It was as if I had a double life- I did well in school and had friends, so I had a source of self esteem there and friendship, however, the issues did set me up to be co-dependent. I thought I had to work very hard to be nice to people so that someone would like me.

I don't think that I was not wanted by both parents, however, mom would paint me black to dad and so I got a mixed  response from him. She would also paint him black to me- thus the " even dad wants to send you away" is probably something she either made up or twisted the reasons about. It was also possible that he was looking at boarding schools for all the kids- to get us out of the turmoil- not because he didn't want me- and ordered the catalogs.

One thing dad did that we loved was send us to stay with relatives and to summer camp for part of the summer. We looked forward to this all year. With school out, we would have been home all day, and that would not have been a good situation.

I actually believed that when I left for college, they would be a normal happy family without me. It was many years later when I heard about things that happened from a sibling that I realized that it wasn't all me.

[StrongDadOf2]

I too wonder if divorce would aggravate his anxiety.

... .

Is there anybody in the family other than you that has a good relationship with your son?

... .

Is there some kind of a fun camp that he could go to on occasion that is prepared to deal with emotional issues?

... .

What kind of a relationship does the 3 year old and 11 year old have? Is the three year old adopted as well?

A divorce would definitely aggravate his anxiety in the short term, but longer term, his therapists foresee a much better outcome.  Since she does not want to participate in family therapy with him, there's not much way to make progress co-parenting at home.  My therapist does not foresee her changing anytime soon, and her therapist is worried that she is planning on leaving therapy in the next few weeks.

S11 LOVES away camps and multi-week visits to my parents, who were involved in raising him from from a very early age until we adopted him.  It's the highlight of his year.  One camp is especially resonant with him, as it is geared toward supporting children who have had a parent with late-stage cancer.  Based on Notwendy and vortex of confusion, it sounds like you both understand why he enjoys summer camp so much.

D3 and S11 get along very well, and he dotes on her constantly.  He does have some age-appropriate misgivings about her being annoying, but he is very, very protective of her.  D3 is not adopted.  It took a long time for my wife to decide on "the right time to have a child," and I was extremely worried that she would change her mind after getting pregnant.  One of her favorite angry phrases is: "The only time I was every happy in our marriage was when I was pregnant with [D3]."

I'll try some questions on the Legal board, too.  Thanks!

[Notwendy]

Camps and staying with family were something we looked forward to. My issues with my mother were not because I was a trouble maker though. There were some of the typical teen antics, but nothing that created trouble. I was a good student and teachers liked me.

I was painted black from the get go. Even my baby book has some strange entries about how I did things on purpose- as a baby! Through being a mom of teens, I think it takes a pretty strong sense of self to stay calm, loving, and consistent as they go through that stage of being separate from you. Clearly, this was not a good time for my mother. I also think she saw me as some kind of competition for dad, but I think children need their father's attention and love in an entirely different way than they love their spouses. It's not a competition.

Boarding school has its pros and cons and every family has to consider it in context of their own. I don't know why they didn't send me, but clearly, they considered it.

[StrongDadOf2]

Notwendy  Totally on board with the kids are competing with Mom for Dad's attention sentiment.  My wife repeatedly tells me that the kids need to be ignored completely after they've been laid to bed, no matter how much they scream for something, so that the two of us can have alone time.  Although, alone time together looks more like: her time to take a shower, read a book, watch a TV show by herself, and grump at me for being a terrible listener and a bad husband while I am to just hang out in bed without talking and not leave the room to do anything else.  On good days, though, we can play a card game together.  Trying to settle differences in opinion on child rearing, finances, and other difficult topics I save up for couples therapy sessions, since those minefields blow up and she wakes up the kids.

[Notwendy]

I know that the severety of BPD varies as well as the emotional maturity it takes to parent. IMHO, parenting a special needs child and also a teenager ( soon ) takes some good parenting skills for any child. I can say that your son doesn't see your wife in the same light as you do, and he's not in the same equal position as you are as a co-parent. Children don't ( thank goodness) experience the sexual attraction between the spouses, they just want the kind of love a child wants from a parent. So while my father loved my mother, and probably experienced some good in the relationship he had with her, from my perspective, I believed my mother hated me, and I think I hated her too at the time.

Have you listened to your son- asked him what he wants? Is there some respite for him- family, relatives, boarding school? I don't know if this is the best choice for your family, but it would solve the issue of getting him out of the tension, and that gives you time to consider other choices/decisions for you. Can you listen to how it is for him without being influenced by your feelings for your wife? Also, no matter how he feels he is still young and you are the one to make the best decision for yourself, but you can still hear him out.

[vortex of confusion]

I know very much what you are talking about. I was the golden child to a degree and I loved spending my summers with my grandma. There was no drama and I got lots of one on one attention. Even though my oldest sister was the hated child, I still didn't feel like I was important to my mother.

I agree with Notwendy that it would be a good idea to talk to your son and listen to him and validate what he has to say about things. This is a situation where you are going to have to be very careful no matter what course of action you take. Before mentioning the word divorce to your wife or anybody else, it would be wise to weigh all of the options, get legal counsel, and perhaps make plans for your son to have some R & R in a peaceful environment.

One of the things that I want bring to light is how important it is to try to preserve the relationship between your two kids. The whole dynamic you describe between your son and daughter reminds me of the dynamic between my oldest sister and I. When I was younger, she mothered me a lot and I really looked up to her. As we got older and I started to exert myself as an individual, our relationship deteriorated. I think she has BPD or something going on with her but I have had to go NC with her. There was so much stuff that happened when we were kids that I didn't understand because there was little or no communication. All I saw was that my mother hated my oldest sister. It would have been helpful if somebody had explained to me what was going on and helped me to make sense of things.

[StrongDadOf2]

I agree with Notwendy that it would be a good idea to talk to your son and listen to him and validate what he has to say about things. This is a situation where you are going to have to be very careful no matter what course of action you take. Before mentioning the word divorce to your wife or anybody else, it would be wise to weigh all of the options, get legal counsel, and perhaps make plans for your son to have some R & R in a peaceful environment.

Thanks, Vortex and notwendy.  I have not mentioned divorce to either my wife or son.  I had a solid week after Christmas with just S11.  He decompressed a TON from a highly escalated state he was in at school and home.  My goal for him was to provide a low-stress period of respite to ease his anxiety.  My wife railed against it and involved her parents into trying to convince me to bring him along on a whirlwind 1-week trip across the country visiting multiple cities.  In unprompted conversations, he opened up a lot about how he feels around his mom.  Lots of "Why does mom yell at you and me all the time? Why does she never touch me? Why did she refuse to feed me lunch a few years back? Why did I spend an entire summer vacation working on handwriting 2-4 hours a day?"  He was really unpacking a lot of stress surrounding her.  Toward the end of the week, he started getting antsy and asked if mom had to come back or if mom could just drop off D3 stay away a bit longer.

I cringe when I think about how she tries to tear down S11 in front of D3 and block his interaction with her.  Even S11 helping D3 get her snow suit or shoes off is forbidden by my wife (but I let S11 do it all the time, because they both enjoy it).  When I hear your experiences with siblings being tarred, I heavily lean toward leaving quickly.

[vortex of confusion]

  When I hear your experiences with siblings being tarred, I heavily lean toward leaving quickly.

That might not be a bad idea. It needs to be done very carefully.

If you haven't brought up the idea of divorce with your son, you might think about a gentle way to broach it with him. Ask him if he has any ideas on how he thinks things could be improved. I have talked to my daughters about their dad and how he interacts with us all. They know that I am trying to work on things to create a better environment for them. Make sure that you validate your son while you are sorting this stuff out.

[StrongDadOf2]

Make sure that you validate your son while you are sorting this stuff out.

Thanks!  I'm getting lots of practice with validation in therapy with both my son and my wife.  This site helps, too.

[StrongDadOf2]

If you haven't brought up the idea of divorce with your son, you might think about a gentle way to broach it with him. Ask him if he has any ideas on how he thinks things could be improved. I have talked to my daughters about their dad and how he interacts with us all. They know that I am trying to work on things to create a better environment for them. Make sure that you validate your son while you are sorting this stuff out.

Funny how much kids open up about everything on long car rides when they forget a book or video game:

I had a very interesting conversation in the car with S11, today.  He asked me about how best to break the news to a female admirer that he is only interested in being good friends.  I said that it's a hard choice on when:  Sometimes the issue resolves itself with no one saying anything, sometimes you have to come right out and say it, and sometimes you have to turn them down when they ask for more than what you are ready for.  He probed a bit more on how to make it less uncomfortable and the differences between talking with male and female friends about friendship.  Holy crap, he's growing up.

He then asked if I ever broke up with someone before, and I said, "Yes, even with your mom once, before you were born."  He wanted to know why, and I told him it was complicated and I'd tell him when he was older.  He wanted to know if it was because I did something wrong to "make her get angry and yell like she does at us all the time now."  I said no, that at the time, it was no one's fault and no one did anything wrong.  He then started to get a bit worked up and said: "If you and mom break up or divorce now, I'm really worried about [D3]!  What would happen to her!  Would she live with you half the time and her half the time? She is so attached to both of you that she wouldn't like it either way!"  I reassured him that mom and I are not talking about divorce and then probed what he thought about himself in that situation.  He said, "I figure I'd live with you because I could never live with her.  I don't think she likes me."  I stayed quiet and moved on to another topic.

[Harri]

Hi.  I don't post much on this board but I do read here a lot and I have been following your story.  I think it would be good to ask your son's T how best to respond to this: 

"He said, "I figure I'd live with you because I could never live with her.  I don't think she likes me."  I stayed quiet and moved on to another topic.

My heart breaks for your kids, especially your son because he is in such a tough place.  I am the adult child of a uBPD mother and a father who was very passive with her in addition to having his own problems.  My mother's rages were incredibly frightening but what was terrifying for me were her silent treatments and when she would withdraw any and all love and affection from me for several months at a time.  It was the look on her face, the cold black eyes, the way she would flinch if I got too close to her that was the worst, far worse than anything she could have said or done to me.  It was devastating and quite damaging for me and caused me such anxiety.  Your kids are fortunate to have you *and* you are fortunate that your son is willing and able to open up to you.  If it were me, and take this with a grain of salt as I do not have kids and have very little tolerance for people who are cruel, especially to children, I would figure out a way to tell him or help him figure out that his mother has issues that make her treat him in very inappropriate and even mean ways and that he is not the cause of it... .put the responsibility right back on his mother.  I know it is generally frowned upon here to put down the other parent and I do not know how to work around that, but he needs to know he is lovable and good and his mother behaving the way she does is not because of him or who he is as a person.

BTW, I think you should fix things so he forgets his book and video game at least a few times a week!   

[Notwendy]

Harri- you could be my sister. My mother's ST were worse for me than the rages. Yes, and the flinching when near me. However now that is mutual- I have hugged her on rare occasions and I think I flinch too.

I am also very protective when it comes to children. I am affectionate with my own kids. They have always gotten plenty of hugs and cuddles and I tell them I love them all the time.

I have a picture of my father holding me when I was a baby, but there are none of my mother holding me. I think there is one of the baby nurse they had- and thank goodness for that. At least somebody held me. However, I do not think my mother ever held or cuddled me when I was a child.

Like you, I so badly wanted to know the truth about my mother. Nobody in her family or my father would speak the truth about her. However, she has a psychiatric history, and has every single behavior of BPD to the max. However, they pretended everything was just fine, but as a teen, I knew otherwise. We were all expected to participate in this big lie that nothing was wrong with her.

[Harri]

Hi Notwendy.  I'm sorry to hear you had similar experiences.  It still surprises me a bit how similar the behaviors of our disordered parent were and how we often can share the same emotional responses to that behavior.  Unlike you though, my mother was very affectionate with both me and my brother.  My mother would alternate splitting us, though I was mostly split from the age of 10 on.  It was the times when I was the golden child and split white that created such a strong emotional tie to her though.  As hard as it is to be split black with the overt nastiness and outright abuse, I found it so much harder to deal with the pressure of being on a pedestal, and what seemed to be manipulation with the emotional incest.  By the time I managed to pull away from the emotional ties with my mother, there was very little energy left in me to have any kind of relationship beyond using my interactions with her (and my father) to learn how to say no and establish boundaries.  I am impressed that you were able to identify that your mother had issues when you were in your teens.  I bought her crap and believed I was the cause of the family problems until I was in my 30's, and of course by then, I had a host of my own issues.   

strongdadof2, sorry for the detour here into all about Harri (!).  While I was never in the position of being married to a pwBPD and do not know the intense pressure and grief of having to deal with the loss of the dream relationship you had at the beginning, I am quite familiar with how it feels to be split black like your son and to be the golden /split white child like your daughter.  Both positions are harmful and damaging for kids.  Being put on a pedestal puts a megaton of pressure on a kid, especially one who can see how those who are split black are treated.  There is an understanding that *that* can happen in a flash.  I know your daughter is young, but kids, even infants, pick up on this stuff and will behave in ways to accommodate the needs of the disordered caretaker.  In the interest of full disclosure, it is my opinion that no one with BPD can be a good parent.  Can they be a "good enough parent"?  Sometimes... .maybe.  What can help them is having one healthy person, whether a Non parent or someone else, who loves and values them just for being them.  In my case, strangely, I knew my mother loved me and did the very best she could.  but that does not change the fact that she was very very damaging to me.

I wish you and your family the very best as you make your decision on how to proceed. 

[Notwendy]

Harri, I think it is harder to be the golden child than the scapegoat, although that role feels terrible as a child. I have read somewhere that the scapegoat is the "truth teller" in the family. I think the golden child is in more danger of being confused and not aware of the disfunction as they get more of the "good" from mom. They are also enmeshed. Also for my father, he got the good along with the difficult. Kids are magical thinkers- black and white thinking is an immature way of seeing things- that we outgrow, but I also saw mom as mostly black, since that was the side I saw most of.

However, since I didn't think I could get mom to love me, and I had to be very well behaved for dad to love me, I became a people pleaser- which is not so good. Still I think it was better to not be as enmeshed as I could be. Kids are also different in terms of resilience- and I think I must have been a resilient kid. Although home was not a place where I had much positive reinforcememt, I did well in school and had friends. A more vulnerable child could be affected differently.

I too wish Strongdad much stregnth with these issues.