Failed in court today :(

[newlifeBPDfree]

I had a court date today regarding my emergency order of protection that was in place. I came to court hoping I could extend the order of protection for a longer period of time. To my shock, my exBPDh showed up in court and he was surprisingly well prepared. Neither of us had a lawyer and the judge had me talk first. I should have elaborated more, give more details, more evidence but I was so surprised and intimidated by him I could not think of how to present my case. He went on after me. They had to calm him down because he was showing clear signs of severe anxiety - he was shaking and could hardly speak. When he finally spoke the lies and manipulation followed... .As a result the judge thought there was no domestic violence, that the order of protection is lifted.

We did get an order to stay away from each other as he told the judge I hit him and was mean to him and harrased him verbally many times (all of which was exaggeration and my behavior was only in self defense). We also got order for mediation for our D11, which is fine with me as we all need some kind of structure.

Anyway, after I left court he was waiting for me outside. He called for me but i did not acknowledge him and kept walking to get to the subway. He caught up with me and started following me and gloating for "winning" the case, telling me I lied in my original order of protection, asking me where my divorce lawyer was now... .I had to run into a fast food chain to escape him... .

I feel so disappointed, so helpless right now. I dont understand how the courts got manipulated. I also regret not having any representation... .

[tjay933]

sorry to hear about the loss today. 

can you appeal? do you have a recorder/phone camera that you can bring out the next time he is around if for nothing other than to make him stop and think before he speaks?

I feel for you.

do whatever you need to keep yourself and your d11 safe-lock the doors, get a door bar, change the locks, get a man-eating pitbull(as compared with the sissy wimpy kinds)-whatever it takes.

[newlifeBPDfree]

sorry to hear about the loss today.  

can you appeal? do you have a recorder/phone camera that you can bring out the next time he is around if for nothing other than to make him stop and think before he speaks?

I feel for you.

do whatever you need to keep yourself and your d11 safe-lock the doors, get a door bar, change the locks, get a man-eating pitbull(as compared with the sissy wimpy kinds)-whatever it takes.

My locks are changed now... .Hopefully he will stay away from me as the new court order does say NEITHER of us can threaten or intergere with personal liberty of the other person, which is fine with me but for some reason it makes him feel like he won and gives him ammunition and "proof" saying that I manipulated and lied. All I want is for him to stay away from me and let me move on... .

As to the appeal part, we have to go back to court in July after completing mediation. I'm thinking I need to be better prepared for that. 

[tjay933]

if you're like me, as soon as he's in a room, I freeze up verbally and mentally.  can't think straight at all. yes, being better prepared or bring a lawyer to speak for you if you feel that you won't be able to handle him in the room or represent yourself as clearly as you would like.

Glad to hear you have a level head and common sense though. good traits to have. 

[newlifeBPDfree]

if you're like me, as soon as he's in a room, I freeze up verbally and mentally.  can't think straight at all. yes, being better prepared or bring a lawyer to speak for you if you feel that you won't be able to handle him in the room or represent yourself as clearly as you would like.

Glad to hear you have a level head and common sense though. good traits to have. 

Yes, when I saw him my heart was pounding and I thought I was going to collapse.

I really dont like the effect he has on me. I tried to be strong and collected but I could not... .

He told the judge he loved me... .Then he waited after we were done to harass me and gloat. He had this evil smile on his face, like he always has when he thinks he is in control... .How can people do that?  I still dont understand this.

[tjay933]

I think of it more as a smirk than a smile.

[maxen]

hi newlife. i'm so sorry for your experience.

I was so surprised and intimidated by him I could not think of how to present my case.

i didn't have to face my exw in court, but i did in life, so to speak, and i know how this feels. the topic-shifting, the other-blaming, the accusations, i was outdone more than once and found myself unable to make the point i was trying to make. it's not uncommon. that doesn't make it any easier to bear i know but you are certainly not alone.

i'm glad you feel safe for now. please be sure to document what happened after court yesterday. and tjay's suggestion to have counsel is a good one. having a lawyer to run interference gave me alot of confidence in conducting my divorce.

[newlifeBPDfree]

hi newlife. i'm so sorry for your experience.

I was so surprised and intimidated by him I could not think of how to present my case.

i didn't have to face my exw in court, but i did in life, so to speak, and i know how this feels. the topic-shifting, the other-blaming, the accusations, i was outdone more than once and found myself unable to make the point i was trying to make. it's not uncommon. that doesn't make it any easier to bear i know but you are certainly not alone.

i'm glad you feel safe for now. please be sure to document what happened after court yesterday. and tjay's suggestion to have counsel is a good one. having a lawyer to run interference gave me alot of confidence in conducting my divorce.

I'm documenting every single little thing. I learnt my lesson.

Even yesterday evening he was being unreasonable and hatefull. He had our daughter and I stayed at work late to make up for the morning spent in court. He texted me at 7 pm telling me i need to bring my daughter's underwear because she doesnt have any clean ones. When i said i'm not going to be home until later he sent an insultive text saying I had enough time when the restraining order was in place to go on Match.com dates and f*** my divorce attorney and one time bringing my daughter's clothes is not going to kill me.

I ignored that message as I dod not see the need to repeat myself and say I'm not home. I'm new with the boundary setting thing and I'm still elarning but I feel like last night I was successful as he dropped it and went to the store and bought her the undies.

[tjay933]

good for you! 

[ForeverDad]

Anyway, after I left court he was waiting for me outside... .He caught up with me and started following me and gloating for "winning" the case, telling me I lied in my original order of protection, asking me where my divorce lawyer was now... .

When I realized my marriage was imploding, I started recording my ex's rants and rages, I felt I needed proof that I wasn't the one misbehaving.  For years any time I had any sort of contact with my ex I would have a recorder activated, I never knew when she might blow up or say something that would be to my advantage.  When I read your story I thought just as tjay wrote, "do you have a recorder/phone camera?"

Just think if you had recorded his gloating, then you could have gone back into the court to try to have the dismissal vacated.  Not even sure if that would have been successful, but at least it would have given an example of the real him, not the slick manipulator and con artist he displayed in court.

Going forward, have you considered keeping a recorder always handy and recording any encounters?  Don't shove a microphone in his face, you don't want to trigger an overreaction or have him shift into more subtle tactics harder to document.  (My ex knew I might be recording but she never saw me doing it.  She still ranted and raged all without my prompting and I got some real gems of recordings.  But some were crucial to my case.)

I recall during one case with my ex I was giving testimony and I saw a smirk on her face.  Yet the court's decision slammed her, even said one part of her testimony was "not credible", something I hadn't seen the court do in the 4 prior years.

As for how my ex affected me, I was a mess.  I would just about stutter when around her, I weighed every single word I uttered in an attempt to avoid triggering her, didn't work of course.  It does get better eventually, give yourself time and space.

If you're living separately now, then obey the order.  A common failure for many targets and victims is to weaken the protection order over time until it's next to nothing.  Ponder your boundaries.  The longer you use them the easier they are to maintain and the easier to notice the red flags.  Don't let him catch you off guard.  Take a moment to imagine what we in peer support would say or your lawyer or counselor would say to you.  You don't enter his residence and he doesn't enter your residence.

[newlifeBPDfree]

Going forward, have you considered keeping a recorder always handy and recording any encounters?  Don't shove a microphone in his face, you don't want to trigger an overreaction or have him shift into more subtle tactics harder to document.  (My ex knew I might be recording but she never saw me doing it.  She still ranted and raged all without my prompting and I got some real gems of recordings.  But some were crucial to my case.)

The current order we received yesterday prohibits us from recording each other... .

It also imposes other restrictions that are similar to order of protection but it goes both ways. Which I'm not going to have a hard time keeping because I want no contact with him whatsoever. The only issue is whether he will follow the order since he thinks that he "won" and he already slipped a couple time within 12 hours from teh order date.

[tjay933]

since you can't legally record him then by all means keep a very detailed account of every infraction of the order where he slips up no matter how small. just be very careful not to make any slips yourself as he will blow them out of proportions. imo.

[newlifeBPDfree]

just be very careful not to make any slips yourself as he will blow them out of proportions. imo.

That's for sure. And it seems like he has no problem lying under oath either... .

[tjay933]

And it seems like he has no problem lying under oath either... .

but is it a lie if they truly believe it? not in their mind. it's just their view of the situation-their opinion of what happened even if it is directly opposite by anyone else's perspective.

[ForeverDad]

So if you can't record, if you talk on the phone, can you have it on speakerphone and let another adult listen?  If so then that would be a witness to confirm your testimony.  (Your court may not accept affidavits or letters, so if you have a witness then the person would probably have to appear in person if testimony was needed.)

One member here, David, lives in a two-party state where it's not legal to record other people without permission.  He got arrested and sentenced once when his ex lied about a child exchange incident.  Since then - for self-protection to avoid more arrests - he "records himself".  He doesn't want to be jailed again and so he'd rather risk being lectured for recording than for not having independent proof to defend himself that he didn't do anything.

I recorded to protect myself.  Fortunately I live in a one-party state and so recording isn't really an issue.  My divorce case was scary to me, even after the final decree, she always was calling the police or threatening to do so, so I would have "recorded myself" quietly as insurance even if mine was a two-party state, then just not told anyone unless it was desperately needed.  Desperate times and all that.

Check with your lawyer on how best to (1) document, (2) protect yourself and (3) protect your parenting.

[newlifeBPDfree]

And it seems like he has no problem lying under oath either... .

but is it a lie if they truly believe it? not in their mind. it's just their view of the situation-their opinion of what happened even if it is directly opposite by anyone else's perspective.

that's a good point... .

[newlifeBPDfree]

So if you can't record, if you talk on the phone, can you have it on speakerphone and let another adult listen?  If so then that would be a witness to confirm your testimony.  (Your court may not accept affidavits or letters, so if you have a witness then the person would probably have to appear in person if testimony was needed.)

One member here, David, lives in a two-party state where it's not legal to record other people without permission.  He got arrested and sentenced once when his ex lied about a child exchange incident.  Since then - for self-protection to avoid more arrests - he "records himself".  He doesn't want to be jailed again and so he'd rather risk being lectured for recording than for not having independent proof to defend himself that he didn't do anything.

I recorded to protect myself.  Fortunately I live in a one-party state and so recording isn't really an issue.  My divorce case was scary to me, even after the final decree, she always was calling the police or threatening to do so, so I would have "recorded myself" quietly as insurance even if mine was a two-party state, then just not told anyone unless it was desperately needed.  Desperate times and all that.

Check with your lawyer on how best to (1) document, (2) protect yourself and (3) protect your parenting.

I was actually trying to keep all communication in writing - texts or emails. He just really amde a hole bunch of mistakes today by sending me inappropriate texts. When I reminded him of the order he stopped and then said for me to stop texting and just call. I dont think so...

[tjay933]

When I reminded him of the order he stopped and then said for me to stop texting and just call. I dont think so...

and I can see it now-you call so he can yell at you and you have no proof-like we want that to happen. good job! 

[ForeverDad]

Below my Icon you will see written:

You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason... .

And its corollary:

You can't reason with someone who isn't listening to you... .

That certainly applies to us who are exiting a dysfunctional relationship or dealing with ongoing parenting issues.  Trying to reason, explain, convince or whatever typically doesn't work.  And you know it's not working if you find yourself repeating the same things over and over.  Try to find ways to simply state the issue and solution as briefly as possible and without emotion.  Some have called it the Three Sentence Rule.  That's right, briefer is better.  Other terms you can look up are BIFF, SET, etc.

Tact - However, just because you keep your statements and replies as brief as possible, doesn't mean you do so too bluntly, in a blaming way or without a measure of tact.  It's been often encouraged that whatever we write in texts, emails, notices, etc, that we imagine our judge reading it and not frowning.  So, write as though you have a police officer, children's agency investigator, custody evaluator, lawyer or judge looking over your shoulder.  That way you will seldom regret what you write.  Think before you leap - before you press Send.

Be concise - Don't leave the topic open-ended.  Ending with "What do you think?" or ":)on't you agree?" or something similar invites more chaos.  Remember, you can't reason with someone who's not listening.  Same with offering choices.  I found that my ex couldn't handle choices, even favorable ones, they sometimes triggered overreactions.  So probably best to offer a single solution and wait to see the reaction or overreaction.  And be careful not to counter your own offer, often the silence and lack of a prompt reply tempts us to jump in with a sweeter offer.  What that does is invite more delay with the ex expecting or demanding even better offers.  In other words, be careful not to sabotage yourself.

Be specific - Many orders are written with standard boilerplate that is purposely vague such as 'reasonable' telephone contact or 'mutually agreeable' exchange location.  Beware of such language, it works only with two reasonably normal parents.  However, for us vague orders and 'reasonable' responses invite reinterpretation and you can be sure it won't be reinterpreted in your favor.  So try not to leave wiggle room.  It will still happen but keep it to a minimum if at all possible.

[newlifeBPDfree]

These are good tips ForeverDad. I certainly have a lot to learn and work on myself. For the last 10+ years with him I have acquired some bad behavioral traits and techniques and my reaction often mirror his. I need to learn how to concisely and tactfully express myself. I never established clear boundaries with him and our current situation is just a result of that.

[Bellerphon]

I had a court date today regarding my emergency order of protection that was in place. I came to court hoping I could extend the order of protection for a longer period of time. To my shock, my exBPDh showed up in court and he was surprisingly well prepared. Neither of us had a lawyer and the judge had me talk first. I should have elaborated more, give more details, more evidence but I was so surprised and intimidated by him I could not think of how to present my case. He went on after me. They had to calm him down because he was showing clear signs of severe anxiety - he was shaking and could hardly speak. When he finally spoke the lies and manipulation followed... .As a result the judge thought there was no domestic violence, that the order of protection is lifted.

We did get an order to stay away from each other as he told the judge I hit him and was mean to him and harrased him verbally many times (all of which was exaggeration and my behavior was only in self defense). We also got order for mediation for our D11, which is fine with me as we all need some kind of structure.

Anyway, after I left court he was waiting for me outside. He called for me but i did not acknowledge him and kept walking to get to the subway. He caught up with me and started following me and gloating for "winning" the case, telling me I lied in my original order of protection, asking me where my divorce lawyer was now... .I had to run into a fast food chain to escape him... .

I feel so disappointed, so helpless right now. I dont understand how the courts got manipulated. I also regret not having any representation... .

I empathize and have been there.

I would like to offer some suggestions.

(to begin with he just violated the no contact order)... .write everything that happened down. Use your smart phone to video or record and altercations. Stay silent. Use a business minded approach dealing with him. stay factual... .work the anxiety and feeling with a therapist.  

I would like you to know that you didn't do anything wrong. There is a learning curve with regards to the courts. The courts are not manipulated, but abused, therefore they are cautious.

If you are going to go into a court pro se (representing yourself) It is best to use a tabulated binder with protective orders. It is best to keep your arguments clear and supported by documentation. Prepare ahead of time with written questions for your ex-husband. If he lies be prepared to show he lied with evidence in during rebuttal. The point of the exercise is to lead the judge to where he decides to rule in your favor. FYI I beat a lawyer in 25 minutes using 18 of 25 exhibits. the end result was she didn't get a protective order, but I did and the judge leaned over and said to the opposing council " Mrs XXXXXXXX you client has credibility issues".

BPD's are very convincing in court. It took two years to fix and pin my xdBPDw in court and when I did ... .the judge was aghast and red-faced. She had seen us months earlier. I set out with 24 points of evidence that my ex was caught lying about promiscuity, prescription drug abuse, family violence and hospitalizations. We ( my lawyer and I)  impeached the ex in front of the judge after 10 exhibits where used. examples ... .Medication/alcohol abuse, emails that contradicted the allegation of physical, mental and emotional abuse she made ( emails where she was telling her family "I was the victim and she was wrong" went a long way to contradiction the fabrication), hospital records... .interrogatories and requests for admissions. Many of these things you can file with the help of an attorney's oversight or guidance to minimize your costs.

You will come through this, this is a learning experience, there will be a next time.

[newlifeBPDfree]

Thank you, Bellerphon. I actually have implemented a lot of the steps you are suggesting. I am journalling everything that happens between us so I dont forget in the heat of the moment. I will not come unprepared next time. He will slip up again and I will be there to record and document everything. I can't do audio or video recordings of him per court order but I will attempt to contact him in writing only so I have proof of all exchanges between us. I have cooled off a lot and now I'm trying not to put any emotions too it. I'm thinking of it as a job, part of my daily routine to support myself and my daughter - kind of like going to work, getting groceries, running errand.

[ForeverDad]

About court prohibiting audio or video recordings of him, was this a standard part of the order or was it something he requested?

Have you asked your lawyer whether you can "record yourself" for self-protection or whatever and if his comments are picked up, then so be it?  I know some have recorded so that even if it can't be used in court, it might help defend themselves if police or children's services get involved.  I believe some states allow exceptions and recordings are admissible if it is documentation of abuse.

[newlifeBPDfree]

About court prohibiting audio or video recordings of him, was this a standard part of the order or was it something he requested?

Have you asked your lawyer whether you can "record yourself" for self-protection or whatever and if his comments are picked up, then so be it?  I know some have recorded so that even if it can't be used in court, it might help defend themselves if police or children's services get involved.  I believe some states allow exceptions and recordings are admissible if it is documentation of abuse.

It's a standard part of the Custody/Visitation Injunctive Order, the judge checked the box listing all things that we re restrained from that says "Engaging in any form of audio and/or video recording, taping and/or any other form of electronic surveillance of the other party and/or the minor children, regardless of whether such conduct is known or unknown, overt or covert, voluntary or involuntary. I have not consulted my lawyer yet.

[david]

I live in Pa. and am not allowed to record. I was falsely accused of assault and went to jail for two weeks under a disorderly conduct conviction. I had to go on a leave of absence from my teaching job until I can have my record expunged. That is a five year time period. The first thing I did when getting out of jail was to purchase an audio and a video recorder. The audio recorder fits in my pocket. The video camera has an eyefi sd card. Ex knows I have both and keeps her distance. I explained to my atty that I was recording myself to protect myself from false allegations. Atty said to continue.

I might not be allowed to use it in court but it is not restricted when the police come to arrest me or any other situation besides in court.

Ex told our judge that I am recording. He was not pleased but said nothing to me. He talked to my atty in chambers about it. My atty said he was annoyed but to continue to protect myself. My atty has had encounters with ex and he has seen first hand how unreasonable, illogical, and angry she is. Ex left in 2007. My atty said recently that my ex has some serious anger issues. I just laughed but then said, "How do you think our two boys deal with that ?" He said nothing.

[david]

Also, it seems to me that judges don't want someone to outright win. I have been yelled at by judges in court and got exactly what I was trying to get. I think they do that to make the other party feel like they won too.

[david]

Another thing, I only communicate through email with my ex and save all the emails. I don't explain myself but just give facts. Ex still goes on and on about what is wrong with me blah, blah, blah... .I save them all.

I got rid of texting to eliminate ex texting me. I recently turned it back on. In a co parent counseling (court ordered) meeting ex mentioned that I have texting. I simply stated to her that if she sent me a text I would delete it and not read it. She sent me a text a few days later. I never opened it and it was deleted.

[livednlearned]

Also, it seems to me that judges don't want someone to outright win. I have been yelled at by judges in court and got exactly what I was trying to get. I think they do that to make the other party feel like they won too in order to avoid allegations of favoritism.

My ex filed 4 appeals and I learned from the appellate lawyer that "favoritism" is one of the reasons that the appeals court can overturn a ruling. So judges may go out of their way to chastise the parent who receives the favorable ruling.

It was so confusing to be lectured and then have the judge turn around and rule in my favor. But I think I understand it now.

[newlifeBPDfree]

Also, it seems to me that judges don't want someone to outright win. I have been yelled at by judges in court and got exactly what I was trying to get. I think they do that to make the other party feel like they won too.

As days go by and the more I think about what happened, the more I feel like I got what I wanted in the end. Even though the order of protection was vacated which gave my ex immense satisfaction and feeling of victory, the new court order basically achieves the same thing: he is prohibited from interfering with my life, threaten me, molest etc. What's funny is he actually did not read any of the paperwork he got in court and he kept on gloating about his victory; he even texted some of our mutual friends telling them he won and I lied... .

Only after I warned him that he was violating the order by texting me hurtful things did he realize there was a new order... .

[livednlearned]

As days go by and the more I think about what happened, the more I feel like I got what I wanted in the end.

If you have a good judge, he or she will recognize that you're "safer" if your ex feels he won.

It's also why some judges will seemingly validate one party, I believe. They are trying to diffuse the conflict -- they don't want to hear about an act of violence after the ruling if it can be avoided.