3 Lawyers, 3 opinions. Where to start?

[StrongDadOf2]

Lawyer 1: Not worth the effort to describe his suggested approach.

Lawyer 2: After telling her the situation, she outlined two approaches: The nice way and the not nice way.  The nice way (her preferred method): try separating under one roof (because in my state separation is what gets the clock ticking for 1 year waiting period for divorce).  Serve her a letter stating that I've retained representation and intend on filing for divorce.  At the same time, present her with a temporary Custody Agreement and Property Separation Agreement.  At some point, either she moves or we agree that I move with S11 and D3.  I retain full custody of S11 with no visitation rights for her, we split custody of of D3.  One year later, file for no fault. One year to 15 months and $15K+

The mean way: File for fault on grounds of mental abuse of myself and S11.  Obtain a court order for sole custody of S11 and shared custody of D3.  Wait to move out of the house until the custody hearing and a mediated property settlement agreement, but start the 1 year clock by living "separate under one roof".  This avoids defending a counter-suit based on Abandonment fault grounds.  Estimate was $25k+, but probably ++.

Lawyer 3: After describing the situation, he recommended simultaneously moving out with the kids and serving her with divorce papers on mental and emotional abuse fault grounds.  Before doing anything, he would meet first with the various therapists to ensure that they are on board with my wife's inability to effectively parent and their assessment of my parenting.  She will most likely counter-sue on fault grounds on the basis of abandonment.  A court hearing would be set in 2 weeks to 2 months to set temporary custody and property separation agreements, with therapists and others providing witness.  In court, I'd have to say she's crazy.  Are the therapists going to be supportive in interviews, but nansy-pansy on the stand?  He indicated that he would not entertain separating the two children, since I indicated a strong emotional bond between D3 and S11.  Most likely, the court would order a professional assessment (Custody Evaluation), which could cost $20k.  Anticipating a high-conflict situation with her degraded emotional capacity, he estimated about 12 - 18 months and $100k for the divorce.  When asked about mediation, he said it would most likely not amount to much because of her rigidity, inconsistency, and inability to contain her emotions; it would most likely end up in trial anyway.

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My take

I'm reading through the book Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder, but have not yet completed it.  So far, it seems like this is going to cost a lot and create a ton of emotionally draining work.  Short term (year and a half) issue.  I'm somewhat inclined to do Lawyer 2's nice way, BUT Lawyer 3's method jumps to the end state that the case will most likely devolve into.  The big wild card is how she would respond to either Living Separate Under One Roof or a complete and sudden move with the kids.  Is she going to rage? steal D3? Become self destructive? physically abusive? increasingly tear into S11 at home?  I need to explore this more with my therapist.

However, I know that in the long term my children will be better off without my wife being involved in their daily lives; that's the only reason I am considering this path.  It's just a side benefit that I may be better off emotionally in the long term, too.

[scraps66]

Some of the figures seem exhorbitant.  A custody eval for $20k is double what a high one at $10k would be for my area. 

My reflection is that I wish I had started with both barrels from the start.  Instead I did the "nice" way and ended up getting kicked out of my house and playing catch up the rest of the 4+ year process.  For a frame of reference, I spent roughly $40k in legal fees and another $30k in living expenses.  My initial attorney counseled me to file, serve, and wait and see.  So I did nothing for about a year.  At the end of that year my ex went back to work, and, booted me from the house and began dragging her feet for the next 15 months.  I didn't like not having any control and in the end, like you mention, my case developed into a bunch of BS stuff with the real stuff, ex's mental condition, never being presented to the court.  Had I come out with both barrels and blasted her, her mental condition which is the cornerstone of the fiasco marriage, divorce and now coparenting arrangement, things would have been different and possibly better and with a swifter closure than how things played out.  May have been much better and less traumatic for our S7 and S10 too.

I know this doesn't answer your question, but gives you some insight looking back from someone who... .been there, got the t-shirt.     

[Waddams]

Generally, people mixed up with disordered BPD types have gotten mixed up with them in the first place because we are generally too nice.  We always try to compromise and work things out amicably.  And while it's an admirable quality in us all, it's also the same quality that gets us killed in court.  It's a war in court.  We'd all end up with better outcomes if weren't so nice.

I say if you are going to file for divorce, then with someone you know to be high conflict and disordered already, you don't take the nice route to start.  File based on fault grounds and have custody and psyche evals done of each parent and the kids as soon as possible.  The professionals doing the evals should get to interview the stakeholders, various doctors and therapists, etc.  Then the professionals (hopefully) do their reports and recommendations to the court based on their eval's. 

You can even potentially initiate the eval's during the 12 month waiting period so they are current and in-hand as soon as you can get in front of a judge.

I'd also ask for a temporary/emergency hearing for custody issues immediately based on her being unstable and unable to function enough to take care of the kids when they are with her.  You'll need full custody rights immediately so you can see to the care of the children. 

As for cost, my L told me in my last case, a custody eval would be a minimum of $7500, the parental psyche evals would be additional.  Then the costs of the lawyers going back and forth, hearings, etc.  Fighting over who gets the living room table.  No matter what, you should try to plan on this getting super expensive to the tune of at least $40-50k.  I know another guy here that did this a few years ago, he spent $100k to get custody of his kids and his XW was one of those that displayed the proverbial drug needle in her arm at court.  It's all ammo that is needed to overcome the very strong bias for mom's in court.

I know all my family court adventures have cost me enough to send my S10 to an Ivy League university.  It's ridiculous.

[ogopogodude]

Awww man, sorry to learn about your troubles. But dude, you gotta do your homework before you leave.  :)o you have LOTS of evidence of her inability to parent... .? Just because you say she isn't capable simply isn't good enough.  Start video taping her rages if you haven't already.  I did my homework. You should do yours.

Did you go to social services yet? (SS is aka "The Ministry of Children and Family Development".  Lay out all the information you have. Make darn sure that it is THE truth, ... not your truth.

A report from a 3rd party is paramount. I did all the above. I now have full custody of my two kids. I was court ordered to live in the matrimonial home.  Follow the steps i did and you will be much happier. There is nothing like living in the house that YOU pay the mortgage on, the house that the kids want to have friends over, the house that is a home. Yes, it may have some bad memories but you can make good ones until the house is sold.

Private message me if you wish, if you desire to communicate straightforwardly.  From one dad to another.  However, the content of my PM will essentially to be to collect data, damaging evidence of the horrible parenting of your wife, and how to do it effectively.  I am the video king.  Archive it, duplicate it, put it into more that one other person's hands, put in a safety deposit box, and so on. Get good references. Go to her physician with your concerns of her horrible parenting.  Go several times. Go to the police department on your own accord. I did all the above.  

Have you made a binder yet?  (yes, a binder, ... a three ring binder with the ability to put printed out emails, printed out nasty and non-sensible texts, and so on, ... .into... ?). It is best if you make it chronological order of these non-sense items of nonsense from your wife.

Another good source here is ForeverDad. He has been a member here since eternity. As has Livenlearned.

It sounds like you are still in angry mode.  That is good. But not necessarily smart.  Myself, ... .I am still getting over my anger phase. But I internalize my anger (and vent here on this site).

 You have to think like the courts and think how the system works. Jump OUT of your body and try to perceive how YOU look, as a judge is looking at you. He/she does not want to have a hothead in front of the bench.  Nor does the judge want to hear your stories.

But the judge DOES want to read a social services report. And the judge WANTS to read emails of correspondence between you and a chosen officer of a local police department that you yourself have tried to get your concerns of the safety of the kids across to the police.  

These are TANGIBLE items to use in court.  Saying "my wife is a drunken zot and she rages at me and the kids" simply holds no weight (even though they may be 100% accurate).

Just sayin'

[whirlpoollife]

I'm finishing up a three year divorce, 45k, so far.  Two young teens ,to start, first I was going to go with an evaluation, but as teens , my current L , said even if the evaluation shows his behaviors  the kids can still say they want to live with dad.  So different for a three year old. the price for the evaluation though he said would be around 2500. But from reading here , that is low. The price your prospect L quoted seems high. 

In the law firm I have now, some L are asset only and others are custody only.  But work  they together .

I changed L a couple years ago because she was giving to much away. At first she was ok but h got a very good schister L, she didn't like working with him and backed down on a lot because of that.

After I filed , and  h actually received the complaint, was the start date of seperation. We continued to live together for another five months. Scary hell for me.   But I can give you my experience since you are in the same now. It should of been a court order for h to leave but his L got it so "he agreed to leave."  So later I learn I cannot use that he was abusive and got ordered to leave.

I stayed and paid the mortgage and upkeep.

Currently , now , for the house, the current value ,on the day of final divorce , of the house is what gets divided.  Not the first appraisal I had to hurry and get two years ago.  Because I paid the mortgage , the other side did not go after rent while I was in the house, which they tried to.  if you want to leave the house now ,  your L needs to make sure you get your share of equity in the house in the end.  If you leave and pay the mortgage , then rent value needs to come onto play.  In the end , take it off her share of equity .I didn t know all that at first and didn't know to ask.

First L said for me to stay because I had a lot of money tied into it.  (Evidence what I contributed but it turned into marital asset , no matter what)

So I could of left the house and still the money in the end would be the same, marital asset.  But I couldn't leave because  custody got tied in to the house situation . For the five months of living together there was no temp custody order.  If I had an emergency temp custody order right away, then hindsight I would of left the house and started new in another.  Not  only new in another house , but mentally for those five months I got beaten down from Npd, BPD sociopathic h, more than the previous years .  Which made me more passive to fight in court later.  The more away from pwPD the better mentally you are.

More questions to ask the prospective L's. 

For the time being , while you are living together, get a storage locker.  Start putting all the finance records in it. Don't be nice about it!      Don't  think x2b won't go though them and take them herself.

Any personal items, photos you want, put in the storage unit too. Do not let x2b know about this!

If you have mail  still coming to the house, switch to a PO Box for the time being.

Read Google research on your state cases on your situation. Your L might ignore it, but it gives you knowledge to bring up to L and questions to ask to protect yourself.

Get a fourth opinion , prospective fourth L if you feel you need to.

[Panda39]

Hi StrongDadOf2,

I would really think long and hard about a situation where you still live in the same house while divorcing.  Like everything there are pros and cons and everyone's situation is different.

I lived with my alcoholic husband for almost a year because neither of us could afford to leave until we sold our townhouse.  I told him I was filing for divorce in April 2009, the divorce was uncontested and final in August 2009, we had to "short sale" our townhouse (long process) so we didn't close until March 2010.  Living with my husband during this time was a HUGE lesson in patience. It was extremely difficult and stressful to live together all that time and I did not have to contend with all of the games a pwBPD will put you through.  There are a lot of specific dangers of staying with someone with BPD during the divorce process (remember you will be "abandoning" her).

There is another member I welcomed awhile back that is living with his wife and kids as they go through their divorce (again I will say everyone's situation is different) but I think you should read his story so you are aware of some of the things that a pwBPD might do in this situation. The member is SES look him up and check out his story to understand the types of pitfalls there could be of living with a pwBPD while divorcing.

I also question why you don't go for custody of both children.  Your stbx is abusive toward your son, so what makes you think she won't be abusive towards your daughter as well? 

I know you have many tough decisions to make and not all divorces are high conflict but I would be of the expect the worst and hope for the best mindset.

I'm part of the BPD Family website because my SO has an uBPDxw and their divorce was very high conflict.

My SO was told by their landlord (who was in collusion with the uBPDex) that they were to be evicted.  My SO left his kids with the wife to look for an apartment for him and the kids and he assumed wife would do the same. No mom now had the kids and there was no eviction. That is how she ended up with primary custody during the separation. 

He then experienced Parential Alienation (so my advice is whether you stay in the house or not... .keep your kids with you!), his children being used as spies to go through his things, steal his laptop and take to mom's to try and hack into it, read is phone text messages. My SO had to watch as UBPDmom neglected the children... .older daughter pulled out of school to do "on-line" school against the wishes of dad and against the advice of school professionals. Daughter did nothing and lost 1 year of High School.  Younger daughter with a tooth ache was left to suffer for months as mom did nothing, then scheduled, rescheduled, got second opinions, changed dentiists... .daughter ended up with tooth extraction. They were also living in filth.   My SO was also falsely accused of Child Abuse for throwing a phone into a couch (can you guess who he was talking too?).  He was dragged into court over these false allegations and the ex who was "so concerned" did not even bother to attend.  Charges were dropped.

In the end my SO ended up with primary custody of his daughters, decision making regarding... .Education, Medical & Dental but he was put through the wringer and for that matter so were his children that were used by their mom as weapons.

I don't tell you this to scare you I tell you this to make you aware that because your stbxw is BPD you could face much more than a simple divorce.  Based on the experience of my SO I would go with Lawyer #3 if you can afford it. My SO (who did not at the time know about BPD) was caught back on his heels and had an attorney who was not as aggressive as she should have been. 

I know many others will share their opinions and ideas but you know your stbxw and situation best so take what you think will be most helpful in your situation.  Keep posting as things progress you'll get lots of support, ideas and strategies that will be helpful as you move along.

Wishing you well

Panda

[ogopogodude]

"living together under the same roof" and "being separated" is pure hogwash.  Just to put a year's timeframe in is not a reason to still live together.  Or to save money--> this is another dumb reason.  If one has made their decision to separate from their significant other and leave, then leave.  

Two arguing adults under the same roof is not an environment for children let alone adults.  Especially, and I do mean ESPECIALLY if one f the adults is BPD and of not sound mind.  Expect things thrown at you (and the kids), even MORE verbal abuse, and even leading to physical abuse.  :)o you LIKE the occasional police squad coming to your house?

The above is only my opinion and because I have been there done that... .

[livednlearned]

Hi StrongDadof2,

It's great that you consulted 3 lawyers. Smart move!

I don't know that "nice" and "mean" will help you in deciding the approaches. They are value-laden, and suggest how much guilt you might feel if you pick one over the other. We have a really good article on the boards about taking an "assertive" approach. The article was written by lawyers for lawyers, based in part on Bill Eddy's work (author of Splitting). It might help to rethink the approaches you've listed in terms of how assertive they are.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270440.msg12566140#msg12566140

It's also really important to think about whether your wife is a high-conflict personality. If you've read Splitting, you probably already know this, but just to toss it out there -- not all people with BPD are high-conflict. Eddy describes high-conflict people (HCPs) as persuasive blamers who have a target of blame (you) and negative advocates. Have you see this type of behavior in your wife already? Does she recruit people to take sides against you? My ex did this at work, and did the same thing with his family of origin. Plus, he was a former trial attorney. I knew he would ratchet things up to the nth degree, and took precautions based on knowing that he would be high-conflict.

Something else to keep in mind: pwBPD have extreme rejection sensitivity. Divorce is the ultimate form of rejection, and even for non-disordered people, it can be a highly emotional and surprisingly painful experience that brings out the worst in people. Not many people can divorce and live under the same roof without serious difficulties. Your kids will likely experience an even higher level of conflict as your wife works through her abandonment issues, and what you want now is for your kids to get some stability and start healing. They cannot do that with the two of you separating under the same roof.

Another thing to consider is who your judge is. That's one of the most important things a lawyer will bring to your strategy -- knowledge of how the judge rules and operates. Some of them seem to work from a boilerplate template based on the law, with as little gut interpretation as possible. Some of them have buttons that get pushed, and a good L will know that level of detail. Some judges are very sympathetic to pro se litigants. Or very hard on domestic violence, etc.

Implement a strategy that provides you and the kids the greatest amount of protection and safety. Your S11 needs serious stability right now, and he needs to feel safe. If it were me, I would take whatever path afforded that level of protection. If it means helping your wife get set up in an apartment, and asking the court to order anger management and parenting classes, then do that. It sounds like Lawyer 3 is suggesting that you move out with the kids. That means they have two adjustments to make -- one is that they no longer see mom, and the other is that they live in a new home. Is that what's best for them? Court tends to favor keeping the status quo. In my state, having the other spouse ordered to move out so the kids can remain in the marital home is pretty common among high-conflict cases where the abusive parent is not likely to leave without a fuss.

I hope that helps.

[StrongDadOf2]

Wow.  I am very appreciative of the advice here!  You all have given me a lot to explore and take inventory of.

I did come across rather angry in this post, as I wrote it right after the meeting with Lawyer 3; bit of adrenaline still bleeding out.  To be clear, I am not angry at my wife, because I know that there is nothing she can do at this point to change herself.  I am lucky in some ways: she's not an alcoholic, not a drug abuser, and hasn't cheated on me (as far as I can tell).

ogopogodude  I checked this with L2 - audio and video recording without consent is illegal in my state, and would not be admissible.

Does she recruit people to take sides against you?

... .

Your kids will likely experience an even higher level of conflict as your wife works through her abandonment issues, and what you want now is for your kids to get some stability and start healing. They cannot do that with the two of you separating under the same roof.

Still working through Splitting.  Hard when I can can only read it in the car on my lunch breaks.  She does have her stable of friends and her mom that are consistently on her side.  I have mine, too, though I don't shepherd them like she does.  Our pastor has counselled me that "this marriage and the way S11 is treated is not what God wants."  When someone in the business of keeping families together essentially says take the kids and leave, that's a strong hint... .

The law in my state really makes this difficult.  Should I leave the house, then I risk counter-suit for abandonment and may come across to the judge as the controlling, manipulative freak.  Keeping S11 and D3 in the home is what I want, but providing enough evidence to force her out via court order is a high threshold I probably won't meet because it's not physical abuse.

I also question why you don't go for custody of both children.  Your stbx is abusive toward your son, so what makes you think she won't be abusive towards your daughter as well? 

She's so enmeshed with D3 right now and has her up on a high pedestal.  There is some neglect of D3 (untreated rashes, forgot to pick her up at daycare, etc.).  I've prevented abuse (she wanted to potty train D3 in one day by forcing her on the potty every 15 minutes for 5 minutes over 10 hours, D3 diet should be only fruit and veggies with occasional meat twice a week, among other crazy controlling things).

[livednlearned]

I think you weaken your argument substantially if you ask the court to treat the kids different in terms of custody. Think really, really, really hard about this. You are in what many people refer to as the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) where you want to resolve the problem with as little conflict as possible. You don't come across as angry at all in your last post, and if you did, it would be justified. Anger, at least for short periods, has tremendous energy to propel us forward and make changes that are uncomfortable. Use it to help you take these next steps. Your commitment is to your kids -- they need you right now. Your wife has a support network -- good! And she's an adult. She has the resources and tools to get help if she chooses. Your kids don't. They are entirely dependent on you to protect them from the exact same person the court insists they must spend time with. It's complicated to work through all of this when you're at the beginning of the divorce process, and it can get overwhelming. But picture your life in 5 years, 10 years, and try to design your strategy for that. The enmeshment you describe with D3 is not healthy, and will only become more unhealthy. Your D needs to individuate and know that it is safe for her to have a separate and stable "self" different than her mom. In some ways, she is at more risk than your son. The more time your D spends with you, the more likely she will be able to develop into a healthy person, and can have a relationship with her mom in limited amounts of time, with enough time to recover when she is with you.

Maybe it would help to read Understanding the Borderline Mother, or one of the other books about BPD recommended on the site. You won't have an easy time asking the court to change the custody order. That door shuts hard. It takes some serious abuse and neglect and costs a lot of money, not to mention it puts everyone through the same stressors all over again.

If she is an unfit mother for S11, she will be an unfit mother for D3. The items you mention are not insignificant, but I can see how in comparison to the issues that S11 experiences, they may seem minor.

Ask for the most you can get. Your wife is mentally ill and needs help. Your best option may be to get a custody evaluation, although look carefully for a good one. Ask around -- maybe even ask the clerk of court. They are the most important person in the court room because they see and hear everything, and handle all the court documents. They can't give legal advice, but if you call and ask them to recommend the most ethical and well-respect CE in the county, you will get some important information. Call as many clerks as you can to see if they start to recommend the same names. This is important! Some of these professionals aren't good, they're burned out, they don't do what's best for the kids. And they have a lot of power to influence the outcome of your case.

[Panda39]

I also question why you don't go for custody of both children.  Your stbx is abusive toward your son, so what makes you think she won't be abusive towards your daughter as well? 

She's so enmeshed with D3 right now and has her up on a high pedestal.  There is some neglect of D3 (untreated rashes, forgot to pick her up at daycare, etc.).  I've prevented abuse (she wanted to potty train D3 in one day by forcing her on the potty every 15 minutes for 5 minutes over 10 hours, D3 diet should be only fruit and veggies with occasional meat twice a week, among other crazy controlling things).

She's splitting the children S11 all bad/painted black D3 all good/painted white neither position is healthy for your children.  Please read about enmeshment https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest. You might also want to read some of the posts on the [L5] Coping and Healing in a Family with a BPD Parent, Sibling, or Inlaw Board to see the types of things the adult children of BPD Parents are dealing with.

Do your best for both children. 

If I was a judge and you were asking for full custody of one child and not the other I would not believe the argument that your stbxw is unfit to parent S11 because by asking for only partial custody of D3 you are telling me yourself that she is a fit parent for both kids.  Different standards for each child doesn't seem like a logical approach to me.

[Aussie JJ]

Getting into it about to buy a box of t-shirt's as one other post above put it. 

The third lawyer seems realistic to me, costs inflated but realistic. 

I had 7 different opinions from 7 different lawyers.  The 6th was recommended by a cop friend of mine who recommended the 7th... .

1: You will get 2-3 days a week, what is BPD... .

2: Think of the finances and how you will survive afterwards, we don't want to go to court

3: it will be about 40-60k and you can expect 2-3 days a week possibly 50 50 custody. 

4: 50K, 3 days a week.  Nothing for sure until 6 months in. 

5: You have given to much away, hope for 2 days a week. 

6: 50 50 care, 100 %.  anywhere from 18 months to 3 years in court.  Wouldn't estimate on costs said it would be irresponsible but in excess of 80K and stressed that that was honest.  Recomended 7th Lawyer, said he was better for this case than her.

7: 3 days a week for under 50k.  If I wanted more than that don't look at the money he would tell me how to minimize costs (his words) and then asked me to explain in more detail (2 hours later) 50 % minimum custody and probably able to get 4-5 days a week first time.  If not give it 2 years after the initial and another 50k and I would get 4-5 days a week. 

I am in a different country so its a different cost for this process to the US, I got told that expect it at the end to be about 150K with everything all put in place. 

I picked #7, His strategy was what blew my mind away and his honesty.  Counselling psychologist who moved over to law and used to write family reports himself.  Been a independent children's lawyer for last 9 years and worked for the equivalent of Child Protective Services heading up their legal department.  He had a filing cabinet and a half full of academic reports on BPD and the influence on child development and what not.  He stressed that I have to be a psychopath myself in my regard for her or I had no chance. 

The ex-policewoman friend of mine knew him by name and so did 3 of the other lawyers who I narrowed it down to (#4, #5, #6).  All were honest with me and didn't try to beat around the bushes.  I basically got told by multiple different people he would get the best result however cost the most. 

My advice, think for a bit, who is giving you the most honest advice.  Ignore the cost's, I cant do that myself, but I will find a way, I just ignore it and don't e-mail him or anything just do as he says.  Pick the lawyer whom you find to be the most honest, who knows the people conducting the assessments and is upfront about it all.  To put it this way, the difference between the three I narrowed it down to was between $380 and $550 an hour.  What's another $170 an hour when your spending that kind of money.  At that point in time it is irrelevant, either way if like me you wont be able to afford it so you just have to make do, get through it and find a way.  Make sure you have the best representation you can get, for your kids. 

One member said think of where you want to be in 10 years.  That is what I do now and act on that vision. 


AJJ. 

[catnap]

When she emotionally abuses S11 is this done in front of D3?  This is abusive to your D as well and no way to protect her from this if Mom stays in the house.  I think it would be seen as a very damaging  control mechanism to show D3: Disagree with Mom and see what happens?  Any correlation with how your D is treated now to how S11 was treated by Mom in the past?  If so, then I think you would have a very strong argument that it would only be a matter of time before the mistreatment of D will be at the level of S11. 

LnL made a very, very important point as to the family law Judges in your jurisdiction.  How well do the attorneys know the Judges and their rulings?  What type of evidence do they need?  Have any of them ever split siblings up?  For example, my son's attorney knew quite a bit about all 8 family judges it was vital because until you filed you had no clue as to which judge would hear your case.  Because she had a working knowledge of all the judges, she was able to craft (what evidence to use)the case to that particular judge. 

[livednlearned]

I really feel for you, StrongDadOf2. I remember the months leading up to my divorce, and I felt physically sick much of the time, in a constant state of dread. You probably care about your wife, even as ill as she is. And you love your kids. Everyone here wanted a healthy family, but when you can't have that because of mental illness, it is a grieving process to let go of the dream, and lower ourselves gently into a new normal where we become divorced.

It is one of the most painful things to make choices like the ones we had to make. And it is difficult for people not familiar with mental illness to understand exactly what kind of trauma our families endure on a daily basis. It is telling that your pastor is recommending that you protect yourself and the kids -- that means the level of discord is serious. It took me a long time to recover and restore my own strength after the divorce, and strangely the exact same thing that I felt was going to break me is what gave me the strength I needed. I'm grateful for my son because out of love for him I kept moving forward, as dark and impossible as it felt, especially in the early days.

Keeping S11 and D3 in the home is what I want, but providing enough evidence to force her out via court order is a high threshold I probably won't meet because it's not physical abuse.

Is this your own interpretation, or did a lawyer tell you this? I was concerned about this too prior to leaving my husband. He was locking me out of the house at night and similar things -- like throwing things at me while I was asleep. He threw my dog one night  :'( which I did not think would count because it wasn't technically physical abuse. My lawyer counseled me to try and stay in the house, but she said if I left because I worried about N/BPDx doing anything to me or S13 (8 at the time), that she would defend me in court. It did not have to be physical abuse, it could be shouting or raging, or making threats.

A lot of what we have to work through as lawyers get involved is fact-checking our assumptions. Family law court is a strange place with weird rules, and sometimes it's hard to even know what questions to ask.

[ForeverDad]

Courts typically profess not knowing what is really happening and so call in the experts such as children's services if abuse is alleged.  However what seems to be most practical in our cases is getting a Custody Evaluation done by a well qualified, unbiased, experienced professional, one not easily fooled or conned by a manipulative, blaming or posturing parent.

Mine was a child psychologist.  He was excellent.  What you should beware of are lawyers who just want to split the differences and make deals, and therapists who are unprepared for our spouses.

You need a good, assertive, problem-solving lawyer and an excellent custody evaluator.  Don't leave either to chance - or to ex's choice.