Normal Tantrum, Or Early Traits?

[Turkish]

I didn't want to clutter up the early traits thread, so I thought I'd start a new one.

I have S5 (two months ago) and D2, 3 in a month. Their mom is uBPD, and she moved out 14 months ago. We have joint custody. On the surface, it has seemed harder for S2 to deal with.

Our son has always been a bit different. D2 is stoic, and rarely cries. Her rare tantrums are short. S5 literally cries over spilt milk (or juice). I haven't heard bad things regarding interacting with other children at Sunday school, nor in preschool,.and now pre-kindergarten. His pre-K teacher just says he has trouble concentrating and often spaces out. I've observed that since he was 1.

Today we were at the park. I was pushing both kids on patallel swings. I guess S5 thought that I was pushing D2 higher, so on the way back in his swing, he hit me. Then he did it again. His hitting has been a problem for a while. I stopped his swing. "Why are you hitting me? You know I don't like hitting. I don't hit you, and I don't expect you to hit me." No answer, but I saw he was getting mad... .here is where it broke down between enabling and establishing parental boundaries. He started crying.

"Ok, swinging is done." Not wanting to show favoritism, I said the same thing to D2. She started whining. S5 started crying worse, loudly. "I want to swing!" I said, "No. Instead of hitting me, you could have said, ':)addy, please push me higher,' but you hit me instead." Cue the waterworks and screaming. I convinced his sister to leave the swing. Her brother stayed there. He wanted ice cream. I said no. More crying and screaming.

I was about to walk off, but he reached out his arms to me. I went to pick him up and he threw down his arms. Passive-aggressive. Repeated four times. I walked off. He screamed more loudly... I'm sure the 4 mothers and there kids on the playground were watching intently 

I finally picked him up and hugged him, carrying him over to a bench. I could feel him starting o bite me. I warned him.he cried more loudly. He's a big kid, the size of a 7 year old. I sat down as his sister played and hugged him, but he was still upset. I suggested we go home... "no! Don't want to go home!"

"Son, you're upset, and I'm sorry, but why don't we come back tomorrow and try again."

"No! Don't want to come back tomorrow!"

"Ok, then we won't come back tomorrow."

"No!"

After wiping his snot on my shirt, he sat on the cement, sniveling. After a while, he got up and played, still upset. He was aggressive with his sister, trying to climb over her up.a slide. I warned him as she started crying a little in distress. He backed off. Then he got upset warned him to get out of the way and let another kid slide down. This was a first, as he usually plays well with other kids. He lost it again. Started screaming. I'd had enough. I took him in my arms, his bike in my other hand, and carried him to the car. He refused to get in, but finally did after I said, "do you want to get hit by a car standing in the street?" Well, yes, but he got in after I said, "either you get in, or I pick you up and put you in.' He got in... I had left his sister on the jungle gym while I carried her brother to the car, but she was in sight. She saw us leave, collected her pop corn popper toy and came back to the car by herself.

S5 still wanted ice crem when we got back. I told him that since he wasn't behaving at the park, he didn't get a treat.  He got a little upset, but was better.

All throughout, I tried validating him while establishing the bounndaries:

"I know you're upset that swinging is done, but you hit me, and you know that's not acceptable."

"I know you want to stay and play, but disobeying, and screaming and crying continually isn't acceptable. Do you see any of the other kids doing that?" Here it seems like I said it wrong 

The good thing is that he's never gone to bed mad. He was ok by the time I tucked him in. We even played the usial game where I "attack" them before bed time. I kissed him on the head goidnight and he asked me to lean down so he could kiss my cheek goodnight.

All in all, it turned out ok. Since taking the kids to parks, however, I've never seen another child lose control like that, however, and I'm wondering if I did anything wrong. Sure, I could have just kept pushing him, but it would have signaled to him that hitting me was the proper way to manipulate me.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

Today we were at the park. I was pushing both kids on patallel swings. I guess S5 thought that I was pushing D2 higher, so on the way back in his swing, he hit me. Then he did it again. His hitting has been a problem for a while. I stopped his swing. "Why are you hitting me? You know I don't like hitting. I don't hit you, and I don't expect you to hit me." No answer, but I saw he was getting mad... .here is where it broke down between enabling and establishing parental boundaries. He started crying.

Why questions don't have answers, Why questions invite defensiveness.  He's 5... .he hit you because he was angry.  He needs to know it is ok to use his words to express his feelings rather than his fists. Alternative response:

"I can see you are angry. What is causing you to feel angry?" Wait for answer. If he doesn't answer ask a validating question... .":)o you want me to do something differently?" Wait for answer... .if no answer reply  "Hitting is not how we tell someone how we feel.  We use our words. It is ok to say 'I feel mad.  I need you to push me higher than sister... ."

"Ok, swinging is done." Not wanting to show favoritism, I said the same thing to D2. She started whining. S5 started crying worse, loudly. "I want to swing!" I said, "No. Instead of hitting me, you could have said, ':)addy, please push me higher,' but you hit me instead." Cue the waterworks and screaming. I convinced his sister to leave the swing. Her brother stayed there. He wanted ice cream. I said no. More crying and screaming.

This is part of the interaction is missing the validation.

I was about to walk off, but he reached out his arms to me. I went to pick him up and he threw down his arms. Passive-aggressive. Repeated four times. I walked off. He screamed more loudly... I'm sure the 4 mothers and there kids on the playground were watching intently 

He is testing you to see if you still find him lovable and want to pick him up.

I finally picked him up and hugged him, carrying him over to a bench. I could feel him starting o bite me. I warned him.he cried more loudly. He's a big kid, the size of a 7 year old. I sat down as his sister played and hugged him, but he was still upset. I suggested we go home... "no! Don't want to go home!"

"Son, you're upset, and I'm sorry, but why don't we come back tomorrow and try again."

"No! Don't want to come back tomorrow!"

"Ok, then we won't come back tomorrow."

"No!"

He sucked you into that one... .at this point, it would be time to leave, especially if you have made a statement that it is time to go home. 

After wiping his snot on my shirt, he sat on the cement, sniveling. After a while, he got up and played, still upset. He was aggressive with his sister, trying to climb over her up.a slide. I warned him as she started crying a little in distress. He backed off. Then he got upset warned him to get out of the way and let another kid slide down. This was a first, as he usually plays well with other kids. He lost it again. Started screaming. I'd had enough. I took him in my arms, his bike in my other hand, and carried him to the car. He refused to get in, but finally did after I said, "do you want to get hit by a car standing in the street?" Well, yes, but he got in after I said, "either you get in, or I pick you up and put you in.'

"Are you going to get in or do I need to pick you up and put you in the car to keep you safe?"

He got in... I had left his sister on the jungle gym while I carried her brother to the car, but she was in sight. She saw us leave, collected her pop corn popper toy and came back to the car by herself.

S5 still wanted ice crem when we got back. I told him that since he wasn't behaving at the park, he didn't get a treat.  He got a little upset, but was better.

All throughout, I tried validating him while establishing the bounndaries:

"I know you're upset that swinging is done, but you hit me, and you know that's not acceptable."

"I know you want to stay and play, but disobeying, and screaming and crying continually isn't acceptable. Do you see any of the other kids doing that?" Here it seems like I said it wrong 

Yeah, not a good idea to compare him to "other kids".

The good thing is that he's never gone to bed mad. He was ok by the time I tucked him in. We even played the usial game where I "attack" them before bed time. I kissed him on the head goidnight and he asked me to lean down so he could kiss my cheek goodnight.

All in all, it turned out ok. Since taking the kids to parks, however, I've never seen another child lose control like that, however, and I'm wondering if I did anything wrong. Sure, I could have just kept pushing him, but it would have signaled to him that hitting me was the proper way to manipulate me.

But is an invalidating word... .try removing it from your vocabulary for a while and see how it works... .it will feel strange AND you can become accustomed to it's absence with time.

You did a lot of things right and there is room for improvement... .that's true for all of us.  I posted comments where I saw room for improvement. 

lbj

PS... .I see kids have meltdowns like that all the time... .

[tristesse]

I agree with lbjnltx, you did a spectacular job and there was little room for improvement.

I wanted to contribute by saying that I too have seen these behaviors several times in multiple children, and since it was the first time he really displayed this type of behavior, I wouldn't be overly concerned about early BPD traits. Yes, it could be that he has those characteristics, but it could also be a 5 year old boy who had a bad day.

I do agree that encouraging him to use his words to express anger or displeasure is the right tact, sometimes it's hard for children that young to form the feelings into thoughts and words, so they act out in anyway they can to make their point. Keep encouraging him and showing him the unconditional love.

Good Luck.

[Shell Shocked]

I just wanted to chime in and say that I love the advice here!  I am working on validation and boundaries here too.  In addition to my BPD daughter 16 I have a 10, 7, 5, 3, and 10 month old.  I am practicing these skills on everyone!  They require a whole new way of thinking for me but I am seeing some progress.

It is hard not to look for problems in my other kids because of my eldest daughter.  My 7 year old has a lot of anger and sometimes I catch my breath sometimes wondering if we are going to go down that path with her too.  There is a lot going on in my house though and it is hard on the younger kids.  Things trickle down here and they definitely react to it.  Only time will if any of the other children develop these traits more fully.  In the meantime I am just working on me and my coping skills. 

One other thing I have noticed about myself is that I tend to be more reactive and parent less "wisely" when I feel watched or judged.  You mentioned that there were other parents in the park and children that you were sure were watching the scene unfold.  I think those things can contribute to our stress level and the way we feel and handle situations.  I am working really hard to not worry about what other people are thinking and just focus on doing what I need to be doing with my children.  It is hard!

For what it is worth, I have seen plenty of temper tantrums at the playground, supermarket, restaurant, etc... .  I have days that people tell me that my children are wonderful, well behaved and polite and I feel like a model parent.  I have days when I do the "walk of shame" to my car as quickly as possible with a screaming toddler. 

[Sunfl0wer]

Sounds like you already got great advice here.

When reading what happened though, what occurs to me is what I learned in an applied behavior class... .

A; antecedent: S5 likely felt D2 was being favored

B; behavior:  S5 hit you

C; consequence: S5 received a whole lot of "special" attention from dad in the form of various reprimands for several minutes.  Dads focus likely shifted off D2, she even suffered some unintentional consequences while focus was on S5's behavior.

If what S5 originally wanted was to monopolize your time, punish you and his sister for it, it sounds like his behavior is successfully working for him.

You sound like you love your kids deeply.  That you are working so hard to do things well for them and being very attentive about your interactions having a positive impact on them.

Please be careful as what S5 needs and your exw needs are different.

Your language about S5 does show favoritism and comparison to D2 and I suspect that S5 can feel this and may be responding to it.

Maybe I have watched too much D. Phil, but it think it would help S5 greater to catch him doing things right vs catching him doing things wrong.

Instead of reprimanding him, can you set expectations with positive language?  "You are hitting me and this hurts.  When you can swing without hitting, you can return to swinging, ok?"  "So go to the sandbox and play something different."  Then carry on pushing D2 and ignore him until he shows respectful behavior.  If he wants to swing after 10 mins of another activity, don't throw it in his face again, just assume he will behave. However, if he doesn't, remind again, then ignore for short period.  He may originally escalate as you try a new reaction, to get your attention, but will like learn your new boundary if you stick with it.

[livednlearned]

Please be careful as what S5 needs and your exw needs are different.

Hi Turkish -- I can really identify with being on high alert for BPD -- we both have BPD ex spouses and are worried about it manifesting in our kids. It's really understandable. I used to describe my son as having "big feelings," and I can see now that his feelings were not uncomfortable for him, they were uncomfortable for me. It is really easy to cast our own shadow on our kids, thinking they are either not going to be enough abc, or they are going to be too much xyz.

Do you think S5 could be feeding off your concerns about his behavior?