questions

[JeanSchimmel]

Can you tell me what the various terms are that happened in my life today are, please?

Almost every weekend my H & I do the same things... .it's time to stop them and learn what we are each doing, and what I do to stop this.

H is a very early riser (gets up at 4:30 all week days and the latest is 6:00 am on days off). I on the other hand am a night person and don't wake until 7:30 to 8:30 on days off. Last night I stayed up way later than usual (so I could read here and learn about BPD). By the time I wake up my H is already agitated at me for sleeping (the whole day away) until 9:00 (every weekend he's agitated at me over what time I wake). But he's busy with his drugs so I again "play" on the computer (reading here). We head out of the house to get lunch and I know my spouse is wanting to get a hair cut after.

Every weekend we struggle about where/what to eat and when. Every weekend he wants a great burrito (every weekend we discuss that there is not any place in our area to get edible Mexican food) I suggest the list of places in our area with edible food. He says whatever, he doesn't care. Every meal I'm supposed to decide what we eat (he always says he doesn't care, but what he means is he can't decide because he can't make decisions). So after he rejects several of my secondary choices, I say "you want a burrito lets get one". I head toward the restaurant and in the car he has a break-down and his anger rises.

He yells at me about my choice of where to eat and it's too late to eat, the day is almost over and he needs to get his hair cut!(It's about 11:30 am) He repeats himself (as always) in the car. I mention I thought we would get your hair cut after lunch and you have until 5:00 today to go there. But he's raging so I stop the car and drive him back home (so he can get his hair cut or whatever).

I leave and go shopping, refusing to have another day ruined again.

I come home a few hours later (with food too for dinner) and he's slept all day. Hasn't said a word to me at all. Eventually he asks me what I'm having for dinner and when I say I'm not hungry but I brought home good food, he's pissed off again that I'm not making him dinner and he makes himself a sandwich (not what I brought home to eat). He's continued sleeping all evening now too.

Tomorrow he will call me multiple times to say hi (get a wellness check). He'll probably repeat what happened today and why he was right and I was wrong. Then we will either pretend everything is o.k. and text message a couple semi pleasant comments in the day, or we won't text at all or talk until he comes home from work. I'll make dinner and the cycle is over until next weekend. When we both do the same damn things.

I'm stuck in the movie ground hogs day. I know life would be better if I committed to making sure he was never hungry. I however get tired of always being in charge of what and when we eat and fail to understand why he can't eat a oatmeal with-out me when he's hungry since I'm rarely hungry before noon and he's hungry at 9:00 every day of his life.

Almost all of our blow ups (his rages) start when he's hungry or we need to make a decision (whether is a simple decision of where to eat or what to do with our life).   

I hate being so dumb or stubborn... .which-ever please teach me how to react "correctly" to help curb this behavior.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[vortex of confusion]

This sounds rough. I did chuckle at the Groundhog day analogy. I have had that same feeling in my house.

Bedtime stuff: Do the two of you share a room? How do you react to his agitation? Do you say anything or do you ignore it?

What would happen if you made the plans and said: "This is what is going to happen"? My spouse tends to do better when I make most of the decisions.

It sounds like the two of you are very enmeshed. I was there at one time. My husband used to be in a band and he insisted that I go to all of his practices even though there was nothing for me to do but sit and listen. When I would try to NOT go, he would get upset and say he wouldn't go either. That put me in a position of feeling like I had to go so I didn't let down his band members. That was 8 or 9 years ago. If I knew then what I know now, I would have NOT have continued to go on the days when I didn't feel up to going.

Make sure you read through the lessons a couple of times. There is some stuff on enmeshment and how to get out of it. Until you figure out how to establish yourself as an individual person, the same patterns are going to continue to be repeated. What do you do for yourself to take care of yourself? Do you have friends that you can do stuff with on the weekends? Do you have family members to do stuff with on the weekends? When is the last time the two of you spent any kind of significant time apart?

You can't curb his behavior. You can only change your reaction to his behavior. And, you can find ways to NOT be around him when he is behaving certain ways. That is where boundaries come in.

This stuff is really confusing and overwhelming and it takes time. Be gentle with yourself. I am sure some others will come along and offer some more direct advice.

[Turkish]

Being an immigrant from a country which is dominated by machismo culture, my Ex was liberated in the US. I'm not a controlling person. I was raised by a single mother who was a bit of a feminist. My Ex used to comment that she liked that I didn't control her. However, having BPD traits, I was the "parent" a stand-in for her likely uBPD father, so on some level, she wanted me to make most of the decisions. "Sometimes, you have to say, 'Woman, this is what we're going to do!'" I could never wrap my brain around that 

Choosing restaurants was often a point of confusion, and sometimes conflict... She was an equivocator. I thought I was being nice by offering choices, but if she was dysregulating, my Modern Man way of thinking made things worse. Being consistent, sticking to your boundaries, can help... The dysregulations may still come, but trying to navigate his moods, while seemingly being the right thing to do, can make things worse. Consistency, on your side, is key.

[OffRoad]

Does your H eat breakfast? If not, talk with him about what he’d like for a quick breakfast or snack in the morning (protein bar, boiled eggs in the fridge, bacon ready to be cooked, whatever). My H also gets cranky when he is hungry.

Explain that you are not getting up at 6am on your days off. He is welcome to get up at any time he wants, but you are going to choose your time to get up and that he needs to understand that. That is a boundary that you can put in place.

My H and I do better if we plan ahead. This is tough because H wants to float like a leaf on the wind, just doing what he wants when he wants. So we compromise. Some weekend days we have a plan, others we flounder about (this usually results in H watching TV or playing computer games).  For you guys, it seems your H wants to eat earlier. You might agree to have lunch at 11am on Saturdays and fend for yourselves on Sundays. As a suggestion, learn to make your own burritos (I have some recipes if you’d like).

The fact that you had the presence of mind to drive him back home when he was raging is a big plus. Also you going shopping (assuming that is something you wanted to do) is also an excellent plan. Another great boundary. Is there a reason your H didn't go get his hair cut in the morning while he was waiting for you to get up?

My H does the get up early, and then sleep all afternoon thing, too. It’s frustrating, but not important for me. I just entertain myself (used to be the kids, too). But I'm very low maintenance.

One of the things H and I used to do when we would agree to go somewhere: I’d be ready and I’d sit down at the computer waiting for him to get ready (he sat at his computer before getting ready). The next thing I know, the day is gone and we haven’t done anything. Turned out, because H was on his computer BEFORE he got ready, he thought I wasn’t ready either and was waiting for me to get the ball rolling. I learned to tell him “I’m ready to walk out the door when you are. I’m on the computer because I don’t want to just sit here staring at the wall.”

It appears your problem is that you want to spend time on the weekends with your H, but you are tired of doing the same thing and getting the same result. If he’s not going to plan it, you either have to plan it or accept that you aren't going to do anything together. If you know what his triggers are, avoid them if you can (Like eating lunch a little earlier than you might like sometimes).

Is there any place where he LIKES the burritos, even if they aren’t “great”. Is there some place you could make a special trip to (even two hours down the road) occasionally that HAS a great burrito? Make it a special once a month thing, something to look forward to.

I’m going to wrap this up with saying that H and I don’t usually eat dinner together. S16 and I eat at 6 ish, but H doesn’t like to eat until 8. I can’t eat that late. It used to cause problems, but now I just eat with S16, and sit with H when he eats. It’s not perfect, but it’s beats the alternative of arguing over it.

[waverider]

I think he wants you take responsibility for his choices. That is he wants you to be responsible to make the decision, but he wants that decision to be what he wanted, but not for him to be accountable in case its a bad one...

eg you said to get a burrito  because he wants one>>You are making the decision with the override it was his choice (ergo his responsibility if it turns out a bad idea).

He wants you to want to do that as a first choice, not because he feels you are "just keeping him happy' which is seen as potentially patronizing last resort.

Part of projection, turning his needs into your needs.

How about you take turns in deciding where to go rather than trying to come to mutual agreement? Thats how we got around these compromises that were always hard to reach and no one was ever truly happy with.

[babyducks]

a couple of quick thoughts.

first, when in a bad place my partner was so sensitive to separation anxiety, or fears of abandonment, or fears of not getting her needs meet, that if I fell asleep she would feel that as a deliberate act of cruelty on my part to "ignore her".   We had our most damaging fight about me falling asleep one night around 11PM because I was tired.   She wasn't and had wanted to talk.   I started the conversation and then inconsiderately conked out in the middle.   For a non disordered person, what I did might have been rude or annoying but for my SO, I clearly conveyed the message she wasn't important and she railed and raged against it.

I said recently in another thread to another poster, that I was once very guilty of talking in a short hand, data dump kind of way to my SO.   I find I have to really use lots of long descriptive sentences, almost to the point where I would kind of find it insulting because pwBPD do not process information the same way you and I do.    Something like what you described about your weekend would take a lot of negotiation for me and mine  as a couple.  Typically because I would view it, first through the filter of logic and reason and my partner views things first through the first of her very intense emotions.  Its just the way we are wired.

Just as an example I would likely start the conversation with SO, I know you like to get up early and get going on the weekend.  I can see your energy is higher in the morning.   AND (I never say but,  the word 'but' negates the previous sentence and invalidates them)  AND just now I seem to require more sleep in the morning so what would you think if we went different ways on Sunday morning and then got together for lunch at 11AM, would that work better for you?

The first time I tried something like that I got a pretty heated response but the third time I tried something like that she was able to respond and say No what would work better is if we did XYZ.  Even when I got a heated response I tried to find something to reply to in the response that validated that I heard her.  When I got something like "I don't know why this has to be so #$% difficult".  I just said it does feel difficult doesn't it and let the conversation drop.  It was very hard for her to puzzle out and I am not belittling her at all.

I also like what waverider said,  that waverider is one smart cookie.   Turning his needs into your needs is always a double edge sword because his needs will never completely be met, with BPD they can't be.   They are fluid and chaotic and spring from the constantly churning emotions.

hope this helps.

'ducks

[waverider]

The principle of the Groundhog Day movie was that if you keep repeating the way you do things, things stay the same. Until the penny drops and you do some basic core changes, you are stuck reliving the same scenario

Teamwork decision making just isn't working.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi JeanSchimmel  

I see you've got many helpful responses already. There are lots of great members here!

I just wanted to say I really understand your frustration. I've been there (like so many of us here, I'm sure). I, too, like to sleep to round 8.30 and my dBPDh gets up around 6.30-7.00. He's always been grumpy and angry about this, usually saying "you sleep all the time" or "you throw away the day sleeping 'til 10" (which I never do). The thing is it feels to him like he's been up for a long time alone, hence I must have been sleeping a long time. I guess 10 o'clock must represent "late" for him.

It's just another way BPD pops up, maybe due to feelings of abandonment or defending his choice of getting up early before I can attack him. Not that I would, but someone who has BPD is hypersensitive to criticism.

As Waverider stated, compromise doesn't really work either. For my husband compromise was a sign of weakness, feeling overlooked and like he doesn't matter, so he would push that much harder to make his choice happen. And, again like Waverider says (he is very wise! ) my husband too would want me to genuinely want his first choice as my first choice. Doing it to please him didn't go well at all.

What has really helped me in my relationship is being clear with myself on my boundaries - and keeping them. And gradually detaching from the BPD-responses to enforcing my boundaries. It was scary at first, I felt so sad and in want of a shoulder to cry on. But with practice I got through it, and now a boundary is just a boundary and he can feel whatever he wants to in reaction to it, it's not for me to worry about.

The good news is that I have changed and found that strength in myself to detach and not get sucked in as our pwBPD would prefer as it gives them an outlet for their chaotic feelings. And with that detachment and strength, my husband has started to change as well and is working hard on himself. There's no guarantee that they will change as we change, but it is certain that it will be a much better life for you!  

[JeanSchimmel]

I think he wants you take responsibility for his choices. That is he wants you to be responsible to make the decision, but he wants that decision to be what he wanted, but not for him to be accountable in case its a bad one...

eg you said to get a burrito  because he wants one>>You are making the decision with the override it was his choice (ergo his responsibility if it turns out a bad idea).

He wants you to want to do that as a first choice, not because he feels you are "just keeping him happy' which is seen as potentially patronizing last resort.

That's how I interpret this. He wants me to make all the decisions in case any he makes turns out wrong. I actually make EVERY decision in our life's. The bigger the decision (picking out wall to wall carpet) puts him over the edge into a month (or more) of serious raging, depression and rejecting me. I used to make all the decisions, now I know it's a trap and won't make any decisions unless it's as simple as where to eat.

I'd like to address more issues, but I need to learn one thing at a time;

I can't figure out how to avoid his rage over decision making... .no matter how much I talk to him (in advance or at the time the decision needs to be made). And the more we talk about the decision the more enraged he gets over it, because he just wants me to decide so he isn't responsible.

Please explain, what should I do?

[JeanSchimmel]

Part of projection, turning his needs into your needs.

How about you take turns in deciding where to go rather than trying to come to mutual agreement? Thats how we got around these compromises that were always hard to reach and no one was ever truly happy with.

? Am I supposed to make his need for me to make decisions into my need to make them all? huh? I don't understand what "projection" means in your sentence.

I've tried taking turns on small decisions, but he won't participate and twists it into that being my problem (somehow).

[JeanSchimmel]

Copied and pasted from another thread;

"Leaving a conversation that is abusive is boundary enforcement, and that is all that is needed.

You can announce verbally that you are enforcing the boundary, but that is usually optional.

If you walk away, you are no longer hearing verbal abuse. This is true whether you say why, or say anything at all."

So I think I did the right thing yesterday, by ending the situation and taking him home (out of the car I was driving) and getting away for a couple hours by myself. But I've been doing this for years... .It's definitely not making any sense to my H and changing his behavior (raging over frustrations).

It does make me happier. I've stopped thinking I did something wrong. I no longer take his rage personally and don't dwell on it anymore, I just live my life. It does make us grow further apart. He doesn't understand that at all.

[babyducks]

Part of projection, turning his needs into your needs.

I don't understand what "projection" means in your sentence.

Projection is a trait of BPD.  It's a coping technique.  When emotions / thoughts / ideas become difficult for them they project them on the people closest.

[JeanSchimmel]

Projection is a trait of BPD.  It's a coping technique.  When emotions / thoughts / ideas become difficult for them they project them on the people closest.

I'm sorry, can you explain where the "projection" was in what I described as my day yesterday?

Is "projection" that act of rage he gave me over where to eat? (I don't understand that choice of words, I see it as "rage"

[vortex of confusion]

? Am I supposed to make his need for me to make decisions into my need to make them all? huh? I don't understand what "projection" means in your sentence.

I've tried taking turns on small decisions, but he won't participate and twists it into that being my problem (somehow).

This is difficult territory to navigate. It might take some trial and error too.

Yes, you need to take his inability to make decisions into account. That doesn't mean that you have to make ALL of the decisions. The easiest analogy that I can think of is how a lot of parents work with kids and decision making. Give them small, easy decisions to make. Instead of giving them the full range of options, narrow it down to one or two (do you want to wear the red shirt or the green shirt?) This sounds very oversimplified. When we decided to get a new car, I did all of the research and narrowed it down to one or two options and told him which two cars made the most sense for our family and why (price, size, etc.) and he did just fine. When I tried to discuss the whole range of possibilities with him, it was painful.

And, I have found that if a big decision needs to be made, it is better if I make it. He and I have been going back and forth about needing a roof for years. I didn't push it too hard because it wasn't leaking yet. Once it started leaking, I got a hold of my dad and made plans to have it fixed. I didn't ask my husband. I told him what was going to happen and when and it went off really well. I don't like doing things this way because it doesn't fit my idea of how things should happen. I had to get past that and realize that if something really big and important needs done, then I need to figure out how to get it done without getting into a back and forth with him.

I am thinking that if going out to lunch causes a big reaction every time, then stop going out to lunch. Would it be possible to plan a lunch at home instead? My husband gets overwhelmed rather easily. When he is overwhelmed, he can't make a decision. We don't go places that are crowded. We plan to go places at off times. If I ask for him to make a decision about where to eat, I mentally prepare myself for the jockying back and forth that is going to inevitably happen.

[an0ught]

Hi JS,

That's how I interpret this. He wants me to make all the decisions in case any he makes turns out wrong. I actually make EVERY decision in our life's. The bigger the decision (picking out wall to wall carpet) puts him over the edge into a month (or more) of serious raging, depression and rejecting me. I used to make all the decisions, now I know it's a trap and won't make any decisions unless it's as simple as where to eat.

[... .]

Please explain, what should I do?

he wants you. Interesting. You know what, just because he wants you don't have to. It is your decision to do this work for him.

It is quite common that in our messed up relationships boundaries are blurred and accountability is not clear. Boundaries - in many senses - have to be straightened or established to get back to some sense of order.

The power to make decisions should be coupled to some sense of accountability and that means consequences. So when the consequences are falling on the pwBPD then the pwBPD should make the ultimate decision. A proper boundary for us would then be to refuse decisions where the consequences are mainly on our partner and only if asked advice but not decide.

SET:

Support: You want advice from me,

Empathy: it is really difficult to decide which shoes to wear tonight, (note to myself: avoid   )

Truth: the high heels look great but the others will be more comfortable. You have to decide which ones as you will be seen in them and you will suffer in case they are not fitting well. Your show and your foot. Tough to decide.

Of course this approach won't be liked initially and may lead to an extinction burst. But quite quickly such an approach helps to reduce the blame game and emotional projections. With this approach in the long run the relationship becomes a lot more mature and rational.

[JeanSchimmel]

The power to make decisions should be coupled to some sense of accountability and that means consequences. So when the consequences are falling on the pwBPD then the pwBPD should make the ultimate decision. A proper boundary for us would then be to refuse decisions where the consequences are mainly on our partner and only if asked advice but not decide.

I've re-read this a couple times, but I'm not understanding. Can your explain this using the eating out example?

[vortex of confusion]

The power to make decisions should be coupled to some sense of accountability and that means consequences. So when the consequences are falling on the pwBPD then the pwBPD should make the ultimate decision. A proper boundary for us would then be to refuse decisions where the consequences are mainly on our partner and only if asked advice but not decide.

I've re-read this a couple times, but I'm not understanding. Can your explain this using the eating out example?

I wasn't quite sure what it meant either. In situations where I am not impacted by the consequences of the decision, then I try to step out of it completely because he will be the one that has to live with whatever choice was made. If it is a decision that WILL impact me, then it becomes a little more foggy. In the case of eating out, I am not sure how it would play out. I am very interested in the response as picking a place to eat is a real thorn in my side.   

[JeanSchimmel]

Yes, you need to take his inability to make decisions into account. That doesn't mean that you have to make ALL of the decisions. The easiest analogy that I can think of is how a lot of parents work with kids and decision making. Give them small, easy decisions to make. Instead of giving them the full range of options, narrow it down to one or two (do you want to wear the red shirt or the green shirt?) This sounds very oversimplified. When we decided to get a new car, I did all of the research and narrowed it down to one or two options and told him which two cars made the most sense for our family and why (price, size, etc.) and he did just fine. When I tried to discuss the whole range of possibilities with him, it was painful. (I can do this and it does help, I should have yesterday over the restaurant choices, thanks for the input)



And, I have found that if a big decision needs to be made, it is better if I make it. He and I have been going back and forth about needing a roof for years. I didn't push it too hard because it wasn't leaking yet. Once it started leaking, I got a hold of my dad and made plans to have it fixed. I didn't ask my husband. I told him what was going to happen and when and it went off really well. I don't like doing things this way because it doesn't fit my idea of how things should happen. I had to get past that and realize that if something really big and important needs done, then I need to figure out how to get it done without getting into a back and forth with him. (I haven't been able to do this (yet). My spouse is a true perfectionist so it's rare that anything is done to his satisfaction (His job is quality control/inspection for a major company) He does usually beg me to do everything, then he stands judgment over that work or purchase. There is ALWAYS a blow out/melt down with anyone who does work for my H around our house. When I tell him in advance I'll handle something and he can't complain about a decision or work that I take control of, he refuses to let me take control and treats me like a baby/idiot... .because I can't get things done to the level of perfection he needs)



I am thinking that if going out to lunch causes a big reaction every time, then stop going out to lunch. (Not fair, I cook every meal. Plus if we didn't go out to eat we would be so isolated I couldn't handle it.)

My husband gets overwhelmed rather easily. When he is overwhelmed, he can't make a decision. We don't go places that are crowded.  We plan to go places at off times. (nor do we, as my H can't wait in any lines or deal with slow service.) If I ask for him to make a decision about where to eat, I mentally prepare myself for the jockeying back and forth that is going to inevitably happen. (We do the same, eating at off times and I'm great with jockeying back and forth, but I get melt downs. I can't take anymore)

[Turkish]

Jean,

Can you post verbatim something he says regarding the eating out? We can all work on a good SET response (and anyone else is free to jump in). SET mixes validation with boundaries.

[OffRoad]

Projection is a trait of BPD.  It's a coping technique.  When emotions / thoughts / ideas become difficult for them they project them on the people closest.

I'm sorry, can you explain where the "projection" was in what I described as my day yesterday?

Is "projection" that act of rage he gave me over where to eat? (I don't understand that choice of words, I see it as "rage"

The projection I see here is that he decided he wanted something (whether or not is is possible is beside the point), but makes you make the final decision. Now the fact that he can't get a "great burrito" is your fault, because you made the decision. He projects his inability to get what he wants (even if it isn't available) onto you. He can't get what he wants=you can't get what he wants.

Instead of saying that there is no place in the area to get edible Mexican food, the validation "Yeah, a good burrito would be great." might get the conversation farther. Then you might find that you both will either go back and forth for a bit about how there is no edible Mexican food, OR you might find he likes the burritos at *whatever* place just fine, but thinks you don't like anything there or are tired of that place so won't say he wants to go there (yes, this happens). But it will not happen if any suggestion is made that there is no edible Mexican food in the area (he thinks it's edible, but someone else saying it isn't edible invalidates his opinion.)

If he wants a burrito, he chooses where to go. If he makes you choose, you choose what you like, not his burrito. Can this cause dysregulation? Yes. But at least you get the food you want. If you make that consistent, then he has to decide if he would rather stay home and get nothing, or go with you and get something.

I understand what you are saying, though. You want to be able to go out and get something to eat with your H and have a nice meal and some conversation without any drama. Have you EVER been able to accomplish this? If so, what did you do to get there?

Think about things:

Does this happen more when he has something else to do? (Like get his hair cut)

Has this ever NOT happened?

Does it happen for any meal (dinner as well as lunch)?

If you help or do something for him, and he tells you you are doing it wrong, do you get up and say "I can see you'd like this done a different way, so I'm leaving it to you to finish as you'd like." or do you argue that you are doing it just fine? (If you haven't left it to him and start to do this, you will get push back at first, until he realizes you will not be allowing yourself to be micromanaged anymore)

And like babyducks said, I also find I have to really use lots of long descriptive sentences.

Read some more about "Your role in the relationship" and see if that helps any.

[JeanSchimmel]

Jean,

Can you post verbatim something he says regarding the eating out? We can all work on a good SET response (and anyone else is free to jump in). SET mixes validation with boundaries.

We get in the car and before I pull out of the driveway I ask "where are we going, what sounds good?". He says he'd love a good burrito. I say, so would I but there isn't anywhere around here to get one. He mentions two places both places we've gone to and disliked. I say something like "we didn't like either place, what else sounds good?". Then he mentions gyros and I say "YES, that sounds really good", "but there's nothing there that you like". "Where else can we go, what's ___ like?" He says "we could go to Chubbys" (a place we've never gone to that does have gyros so maybe they have something he'd like). I say "great" and start to head there.

I get to the fork in the road where I turn one way for Chubbys or the other way for Mexican. I say, "this is silly, you don't like gyros why don't we go to the Mexican restaurant instead". And I drive that direction. We get less than a mile down the road and he starts raging at me.

"You make life so damn hard. I can't stand being with you, you drive me crazy!" He says a bunch of other Nasty things but I start to tune out mentally cause I've heard this before and I know there won't be any recovering for today. Then he says something like "You know I want to get my hair cut, the day is already gone. I'd get out of the car right now and walk if it wasn't so far away from home."

I turn the car around and drive him home. I say nothing, he gets out gets the key to his car and drives off, I go on with my day with-out him.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

I know he got his hair cut and he didn't ever eat lunch that day. When I returned home he was sleeping on the sofa and in his deep funk.

[JeanSchimmel]

I understand what you are saying, though. You want to be able to go out and get something to eat with your H and have a nice meal and some conversation without any drama. Have you EVER been able to accomplish this? If so, what did you do to get there?

Think about things:

Does this happen more when he has something else to do? (Like get his hair cut)

Has this ever NOT happened?

Does it happen for any meal (dinner as well as lunch)?

If you help or do something for him, and he tells you you are doing it wrong, do you get up and say "I can see you'd like this done a different way, so I'm leaving it to you to finish as you'd like." or do you argue that you are doing it just fine? (If you haven't left it to him and start to do this, you will get push back at first, until he realizes you will not be allowing yourself to be micromanaged anymore)

Yes, we can go out to eat with-out drama if we decide ahead of time on where we are going. It doesn't matter if it's breakfast, lunch or dinner it's always a trauma for him to decide what and when to eat. I'm aware of this and try to get a decision before we leave the house, always. (I did start the discussion before we got into the car and he didn't respond). I don't know if this is important or not; but I am a professional chef... .and he likes to be mothered... .so I cook 90% of our meals and he's happy not to decide on what to eat.

His rants are about making the decision of where to eat. He tells me he mentions places but I ignore him and go where I want to go. BUT I hear the conversation differently! I hear him say "I don't care", "you pick", "I'll eat anything"... .so I choose. Than he screams he picked a couple places and as usual we're going where You want.

We each perceive the verbal conversation differently. I feel bad that he "thinks" he's chosen a place and I've ignore that. so I tried really hard to hear what he wanted. That's why I changed our destination and headed toward the Mexican restaurant (we both don't like) to please him.

[waverider]

How about you get him to write some suggestions down, then there can be no revising of recollections. Use the guise of asking him to get their phone number so you can call ahead if you like.

The issue seems to be he doesn't want to voice his real opinions (insecurities?), yet he still believes in hindsight that he communicated them. Turning thoughts into facts, he wish he had said XYZ(feeling)= is as good as having said it (fact).

He thought it, so you should have thought it too (projection), therefore by not actioning you are deemed to have ignored the thought (dismissive/invalidated) Is this possible?

[JeanSchimmel]

We get in the car and before I pull out of the driveway I ask "where are we going, what sounds good?". He says he'd love a good burrito. I say, so would I but there isn't anywhere around here to get one. He mentions two places both places we've gone to and disliked. I say something like "we didn't like either place, what else sounds good?".

Quick clarification of my sentence above; He is the person who has labeled the Mexican restaurants in our area as not good! I wasn't' dismissing his idea, I was trying to remind him he didn't like either place.

[JeanSchimmel]

How about you get him to write some suggestions down, then there can be no revising of recollections. Use the guise of asking him to get their phone number so you can call ahead if you like.

The issue seems to be he doesn't want to voice his real opinions (insecurities?), yet he still believes in hindsight that he communicated them. Turning thoughts into facts, he wish he had said XYZ(feeling)= is as good as having said it (fact).

He thought it, so you should have thought it too (projection), therefore by not actioning you are deemed to have ignored the thought (dismissive/invalidated) Is this possible?

Is this possible, HELL YES, (but no to your idea of writing down opinions in advance). I'm trying very hard to hear his needs... .but don't think he says them out loud. At some places he tells me to order for him because I know what he likes. But the fact is, he really refuses to participate. If I point that out to him, he rages that I'm the food expert (we're in a new restaurant and I have no idea what's good, but I'm the 'expert'.

[vortex of confusion]

I get to the fork in the road where I turn one way for Chubbys or the other way for Mexican. I say, "this is silly, you don't like gyros why don't we go to the Mexican restaurant instead". And I drive that direction. We get less than a mile down the road and he starts raging at me.

If he said Chubbys, why didn't you go to Chubbys? It is not up to you to change his mind or remind him of his likes and dislikes. Let him be responsible for that instead of second guessing him and telling him that he is silly. I know you didn't say that. I am trying to point out how it might sound to him.

Also, it might be helpful to check yourself and see if you have any investment in keeping things the same way. That is a difficult one to swallow. I know I have had to admit that I have been resistant to change myself. Maybe next time, stick with what he said and follow through without any kind of second guessing or stopping and saying that it is silly.

[waverider]

What happens if you stop going out if he persists in raging? ie make it a boundary.

This is always the bottom line. as you already pointed out making sure you dont at least keep having an awful time.

You are not expected to hear his needs if he doesn't make them clear, ultimately that is his problem and his consequence.

There is a tool that sometimes used which is the default action model. It is used to avoid indecison. It operates along the line of clearly stating how you perceive what is about to happen, and unless told clearly otherwise is what is going to happen. If nothing is said to the contrary then the default is actioned. YOU can write it down if need be, he needs do nothing unless he openly disagrees. make this decision before you leave and make it non negotiable thereafter.

pwBPD are surprisingly good at fitting in with black and white decisions (eventually). Changing plans, even at their  own suggestion, fuels insecurity and confusion.

That way in hindsight you have a clear statement to point to which wasn't challenged. The aim is to try to do away with the unspoken perceived agreement.

[JeanSchimmel]

Vortex of Confusion; I definitely do need to check myself about keeping things the same. I think I'm doing that, because if I change and stop accepting his behavior it means I have to end our relationship... .because I know he isn't going to change (he believes he right about every little thing, and I'm a monster who hates him). I am scared of getting divorced... .although I've thought of it constantly through out our marriage. So instead for 26 years I've been trying to change myself, to figure out how I can be and do the things he wants (but it never works). I don't know how to get past this, yet.

Waverider; If I did write down what I perceive is about to happen. He would rage if he learned I did that. He would turn the situation around and focus on me and why I'm so horrible to have done that... .why do I stay with him... .rage, rage, rage. I can write it down to check myself, but I'm pretty sure this is what's happening because it's been going on for 26 years.

"Changing plans, even at their  own suggestion, fuels insecurity and confusion" This is VERY, very true! I can not change plans or change the order in which we were going to do things as planned with out him raging. This can be as simple as the order of our chores, and going to one store before another. One time our flight was late getting into our destination, where we had plans on a time line (his plan). He got so enraged we were late and couldn't proceed with his/our plan, he screamed at me to pull over the car on the highway as we were leaving the airport and he got out of the car screaming that our vacation was over and he's getting on a flight to go home. Leaving me driving one way, as he walked the other way in a city I didn't know... .and sort of endangering both of our life's.

[JeanSchimmel]

What happens if you stop going out if he persists in raging? ie make it a boundary.

This is always the bottom line. as you already pointed out making sure you dont at least keep having an awful time.

You are not expected to hear his needs if he doesn't make them clear, ultimately that is his problem and his consequence.

There is a tool that sometimes used which is the default action model. It is used to avoid indecison. It operates along the line of clearly stating how you perceive what is about to happen, and unless told clearly otherwise is what is going to happen. If nothing is said to the contrary then the default is actioned. YOU can write it down if need be, he needs do nothing unless he openly disagrees. make this decision before you leave and make it non negotiable thereafter.

pwBPD are surprisingly good at fitting in with black and white decisions (eventually). Changing plans, even at their  own suggestion, fuels insecurity and confusion.

That way in hindsight you have a clear statement to point to which wasn't challenged. The aim is to try to do away with the unspoken perceived agreement.

Ah, guilty! I mis-understood this because I was mad/frustrated. Thank-you, it does sound like a possible solution after all... .

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex of Confusion; I definitely do need to check myself about keeping things the same. I think I'm doing that, because if I change and stop accepting his behavior it means I have to end our relationship... .because I know he isn't going to change (he believes he right about every little thing, and I'm a monster who hates him). I am scared of getting divorced... .although I've thought of it constantly through out our marriage. So instead for 26 years I've been trying to change myself, to figure out how I can be and do the things he wants (but it never works). I don't know how to get past this, yet.

This is something that you can explore further. You might even want to start another thread about fearing change.

You can change your behavior without ending the relationship. It won't be easy and there will be a lot of bumps in the road. I have been trying to do that. It is a slow and grueling process and I have come here for advice, venting, and just to have a safe place to share.

Stop trying to change yourself for HIM. Change yourself for YOU. I could have written your statement about trying to change yourself to be and do the things that he wants. What do YOU want? If you are anything like me, that is a very difficult question to answer. At one time, I would have answered that all I want is for him to be happy. As long as my answer about what I want focuses on him, I am not going to make much progress and I will be stuck. Ask me how I know.

I have been stuck in that place for close to 17 years now. Getting unstuck is hard work because now I am having to face my own demons and figure out what I want even if what I want will make him unhappy.