getting ready for court... what to expect?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So a little back story... .I called it quits with the ex about 11 months ago. It was so toxic... .I had boundaries crosses and was constantly walking on egg shells... there was one boundary you can only have crossed so many times... .kids

She would get in fits of rage, screaming and swearing at me, pushing me, and when i would get angry and try to walk away, she would follow me screaming and lock me in the bathroom... .All this while my kids covered their ears crying and ran off hiding in their rooms. That was the last straw... ive been punched, things thrown at me, pushed around... .she tried to jump out of my moving car, threatened to take an entire bottle of anti-depressants. So i had her move out of my house... .

So when she first moved out... my family and friends were coming over to my house more, and she found out... .I went to pick up my daughter from her apartment and she questioned why my family and friends were coming over more. I answered and she freaked out... .Tried ripping my daughter out of my arms while my little one was crying. She then started yelling that i cant take her without custody papers and she was calling the cops.

So the next day i called a friend (lawyer) and had some papers written up... .He said i should hold off for a bit (in hopes we could work things out). however i told the ex i was having papers written up... .She flipped out! and said that we didnt need to go through lawyers and if we do there is no chance of reconciling... .well out of fear i didnt file them(mistake) we continued on with 50/50 and it was every other week. i dint have any outbursts like that again... .other than her running after me while trying to drive away after dropping my daughter off... .she opened my car door and wouldnt back away.

well about 8 months went by... .and i only talked to her solely about our daughter. She would argue with me that i wasnt co parenting etc... .

well i just got a certified letter in the mail... .she went to a lawyer and is trying for full custody... .

i have gone through this before with an ex wife... .but she was sane, so what do i expect now?

Thanks in advance. 

[m-and-m]

So a little back story... .I called it quits with the ex about 11 months ago. It was so toxic... .I had boundaries crosses and was constantly walking on egg shells... there was one boundary you can only have crossed so many times... .kids

She would get in fits of rage, screaming and swearing at me, pushing me, and when i would get angry and try to walk away, she would follow me screaming and lock me in the bathroom... .All this while my kids covered their ears crying and ran off hiding in their rooms. That was the last straw... ive been punched, things thrown at me, pushed around... .she tried to jump out of my moving car, threatened to take an entire bottle of anti-depressants. So i had her move out of my house... .

So when she first moved out... my family and friends were coming over to my house more, and she found out... .I went to pick up my daughter from her apartment and she questioned why my family and friends were coming over more. I answered and she freaked out... .Tried ripping my daughter out of my arms while my little one was crying. She then started yelling that i cant take her without custody papers and she was calling the cops.

So the next day i called a friend (lawyer) and had some papers written up... .He said i should hold off for a bit (in hopes we could work things out). however i told the ex i was having papers written up... .She flipped out! and said that we didnt need to go through lawyers and if we do there is no chance of reconciling... .well out of fear i didnt file them(mistake) we continued on with 50/50 and it was every other week. i dint have any outbursts like that again... .other than her running after me while trying to drive away after dropping my daughter off... .she opened my car door and wouldnt back away.

well about 8 months went by... .and i only talked to her solely about our daughter. She would argue with me that i wasnt co parenting etc... .

well i just got a certified letter in the mail... .she went to a lawyer and is trying for full custody... .

i have gone through this before with an ex wife... .but she was sane, so what do i expect now?

Thanks in advance. 

[livednlearned]

Hi m-and-m,

Your kids have been through a lot  :'( and you too. It's hard. How are the kids doing now? How old are they?

There can be a lot of theater in the beginning of a divorce, lots of posturing. The claim and counter claim typically set the tone for the divorce, but that doesn't mean she will get what she is asking for.

Courts, lawyers, and judges expect a high-conflict divorce to be driven by two emotionally immature people, so the challenge is to counter her "persuasive blaming" with a cool head, so you emerge as the grown-up. Have you read Bill Eddy's Splitting about divorcing someone with BPD or NPD? That's a good place to start.

Your wife is going to want to drive the conflict high. Because of her disorder, she sees others as all good, or all bad -- this means her behavior is motivated by fear. And family law court tends to fuel this kind of thinking.

So your challenge is to take an assertive approach. Don't let her actions trigger you, and avoid being either passive or aggressive. There is an article here that describes the assertive approach, similar to what Eddy outlines in his book: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270440.0

You love and care for your kids. Read as much as you can in the lessons to the right -----> so you can help them stay centered and learn to grow into emotionally resilient adults.

LnL

[m-and-m]

I have 3 kids... .my two eldest are from my ex wife... .this current custody issue is with my ex uBPDfiance... .My youngest has recently started saying she wishes mom would come back home, but i have seen her getting better... .she was quite the wreck a few months ago... .fake illness for attention and have complete breakdowns... .She turns 4 in a few days...

i dont want to just go in there and attack her character but how do you bring up all the issues without it seeming like you are?

for instance... .she tried to jump out of my moving car because i couldnt pay for her dental procedure... .said it was ridiculous that i could buy my oldest daughter a net book for getting straight A's but couldnt pay her dental bill. Or threatening to take a whole bottle of anti-depressants to kill her self? Or pushing me down and screaming/swearing at me while my kids were standing right there?

we have been doing 50/50 since she moved out... .now she wants full custody, thats weird in itself.

she claims to have epilepsy but even at 36 hasnt sought treatment since i have know her anyway. She doesnt drive or have a car. She doesnt have a stable job (she works from home online promoting for her friends (one for one of those health shake drinks, and the other for marijuana).

i will admit, i am a little nervous, which who wouldnt be... .but im not super scared. just concerned as to what the right thing to do is... .

[ForeverDad]

Many face the F.O.G. - Fear, Obligation, Guilt.  Don't let her use them against you.  You may not have that much fear, but the Obligation and Guilt are real risks.  She will use your parenting against you, hold your daughter ransom, so to speak, and make you feel guilty that "you're doing this to her and to the children."  Nonsense but she will use her 'emotional claims/facts' so slickly to make it seem so plausible.

So this is just about the youngest?  If you've been doing 50/50 for the past year, then hold firm to keeping at least that much.  My court asked just one question, "What are your work schedules?"  That's a real risk for you, that court will set a temporary order regardless of what is best for the child since "it's only temporary".  But temp orders have a nasty tendency to morph into final decrees if we don't keep on top of it.  The judge could assume that since an order 'worked' during the divorce process, then why mess with what seems to have been working?

So try to get the best temp order you can from the very start.  If you've been doing 50/50 for a year, make sure the judge knows it and remind the court you don't want your child stressed by seeing you less.  Often the initial hearing is just a half hour or so.  Your entire divorce process hinges on how that goes.  I can still remember my lawyer whispering to me at my initial hearing, ":)on't worry, we'll fix it later."  Ha!  The temp order lasted for nearly 2 years and court wasn't inclined to fix anything the entire time.  Argh!

Whatever the court decides to do in a temporary order, you'll likely want to get a well qualified and experienced Custody Evaluator.  A good one is worth his/her weight in gold, while an inexperienced, biased or gullible one is an albatross around your neck.

[ogopogodude]

It sounds like you have a good circle of friends and family. Keep them informed. They want to know what is going on. This is because they care for you (and your kids).

In Family court, you may not be able to speak at all. In Canada, only the lawyers can talk based on written affidavits by each party. In Trial, which is a Supreme court process and is VERY expensive as well as WAY more in depth, then one can actually speak, ... .at times, ... .with their lawyer beside them. The judge will allow each party to talk, even though the lawyers would prefer to do all the talking.

The only way a spouse/parent can speak at a Family court process is if they act as their own counsel.  I am going to actually do this by first having my lawyer prepare everything paperwork-wise and then I feel very confident in public speaking especially when it comes to telling my experiences and how it has destroyed my kid's childhood.  I am very certain that opposing counsel dreads me speaking in court as my wife and her lawyer will cringe at the potential of me re-living experiences being recollected by me and airing dirty laundry ... .HER dirty laundry out in court for it to become public record.  Now, in my province, getting a divorce is a no-fault region meaning that you can divorce a person if they leave the toothpaste cap  off all the time. The judge does not want to hear stories of rages and tantrums and so on UNLESS it is directly involving a child's upbringing.  If I am to state that my children are in peril by my spouses rages, then the judge HAS to listen. This is because it is in the best interest of the children, safety wise.

Whatever the case, Disclose information about her rage issues and how it affects you and the children. It is "okay' to say it scares you (and you're an adult, ... .a rage episode is quite frightening) and it certainly scares young ones.

Usually a temper ridden person does not want evidence of their rages to be known to outsiders especially a judge. Because one cannot show videos or audios in the canadian court process (unless under peculiar circumstances) then you may get them in the "back door" into court. This is EXACTLY what I did. I went to social services (The Ministry of Children and Family Development as it is called here rather than social services).  I showed two agents EVERYthing and they knew they had to get the kids out of my wife's reach and solely into mine. Their report was awesome.  

In court, the report made out my wife to be the very devil.  So, you may want to make a phone call to SS tomorrow.   Do not be afraid of social services. They want one thing and one thing ONLY --> the safety of the children and for them to be in a peaceful environment.  

Social services' mandate could care less if you hate your wife or your wife hates you, ... .and so on ,... .but they want kids to live in a calm environment. Yelling and screaming is abuse. I recorded my wife's tantrums and crazy nut-bar antics and SS took this behaviour very seriously when the behaviour was in front of the children.

Judges will not tolerate rages or tantrums in their court room. They will also not tolerate tantrums in the privacy of homes if it scares the living s*** out of children.  Your wife will go "down" in court proceedings, if you can show evidence of these rages.  (please tell me you took videos, rages, ... if you didn't then you saying she is a rage'er means nothing as then your story is he said/she said).

Bpd's do not like knowing that there is evidence out there that is damaging. Nobody likes this actually.

Oh,... one more thing, ... you may want to try the approach of demanding to have a psychiatric evaluation of your spouse as well as yourself in order to establish baseline data whereby you wish to disclose your experiences with your spouse to this proposed therapist evaluator. But specifically ask for a therapist that is fluent in BPD as you are "quite certain that your spouse exhibits all traits of this mental affliction".  Remember, ... .a BPD person always seems to want the OPPOSITE of what is being proposed before them.

If there is resistance to this by opposition (your spouse and her lawyer), the judge will be highly suspicious of your spouse and will grant your request. But be aware that this process is expensive and the fees involved is usually shared between fighting parties.  

Usually the BPD spouse will soon "settle" out of court,  rather than have a shrink do their analyzing and diagnosing processes. Exposure of their mental affliction is  something that they will fervently undertake.  

[m-and-m]

Thank you all for the replies... .

Unfortunately i did not record these outburst... .Most of them were in the beginning of the split... .and i was hoping to work things out, so i dint want to fuel the fire... .

I actually just went through a bunch of emails and i noticed i deleted a bunch... because it hurt me to see them back then... .however i have come across a few that may be useful.

I am still concerned about the lying... .anyone have any advice on that one? She is a liar... .for sure, she does it constantly and will deny it until she dies! help

[livednlearned]

Yes, she will lie. Bill Eddy calls this "Persuasive Blaming" and has a theory of the pattern of blame. Most lawyers who are familiar with BPD recommend taking an assertive approach. For a lot of people who comes to these boards, who tend to be appeasers, fixers, rescuers, etc. being assertive feels like being aggressive. That's a perception problem.

Being assertive means that you understand you have the right to protect yourself and your children. There's even an Assertiveness Bill of Rights:

1. You have the right to judge your own behaviors, thoughts and emotions, and to take responsibility for their initiation and consequences upon yourself.

2. You have the right to offer no reasons or excuses for justifying your behavior.

3. You have the right to judge if you are responsible for finding solutions to other people’s problems.

4. You have the right to change your mind.

5. You have the right to make mistakes and be responsible for them.

6. You have the right to say “I don’t know.”

7. You have the right to be independent of the goodwill of others before coping with them.

8. You have the right to be illogical in making decisions.

9. You have the right to say “I don’t understand.”

10. You have the right to say “I don’t care.”

11. You have the right to say “no.”

12. You have the right to do less then you are humanly capable of doing.

13. You have the right to take the time you need to respond.

14. You have the right to disagree with others regardless of their position or numbers.

15. You have the right to feel all of your emotions (including anger) and express them appropriately.

16. You have the right to ask questions.

17. You have the right to be treated with respect.

18. You have the right to ask for what you want.

19. You have the right to feel good about yourself, your actions and your life.

20. You have the right to exercise any and all of the these rights, without feeling guilty.

A very useful tactic with liars is to depose them. My ex is a former trial attorney who has deposed (according to him) hundreds of people. Yet in his deposition, he kept getting backed into corners. He was sweating and beet red by the time the deposition was over. You will likely be deposed too, if this is part of your strategy. Lawyers will also use this strategy to size up the credibility of the opposing party, to see how the two of you might do on the stand. People with BPD do not hold up well when they are deposed because feelings = facts. Then, when that testimony is introduced in court, and the pwBPD is cross-examined, it's a trainwreck for them.

It's always hard to predict how a judge will handle your case, but the fact that you have had 50/50 for a year will be meaningful to the court. In the complaint (or whatever it's called in your state), did she make any false allegations?

[m-and-m]

The complaint was super generic... .

"it is in the best interest of the court to grant full custody to plaintiff because she promotes co-parenting, a safe and educational home for minor"

that is it.

Again... .When i was divorced from my ex-wife... .I had temporary full custody for a year before we agreed upon shared custody. Since then its been shared custody, and we have been co-parenting for years, and well i might add.

When i spoke to my lawyer to set up an appointment, he asked... ." why is she doing this now?, i mean almost a year later?"

answer... .I have no idea, i think it was based upon the dentist appointment incident (there is a post on that)

recap: I made my daughter an appointment, told the ex, she exclaimed she wanted to have her dad drop her off there to also be there. I told her i dont think it was a good idea, and that i would just let her know how it goes... it was just a checkup/cleaning... She said i wasnt respecting her motherly rights. I told her she wasnt respecting my boundaries, i didnt want to confuse our daughter... Our daughter recently started the "i wish mommy would come home" so i didnt think that would help our daughter at all. The ex was furious.



   

[Nope]

The complaint was super generic... .

"it is in the best interest of the court to grant full custody to plaintiff because she promotes co-parenting, a safe and educational home for minor"

that is it.

   

Yes, that sounds intentionally generic. But now yhat you've mentioned the dentist issue it sounds like maybe there is a hidden clue. Meaning she intends to say she can coparent and you can't. You might want to put together anything you can come up with as evidence that this isn't the case. Others are correct that a history of 50/50 parenting will be very helpful. Make sure you can prove that it has been 50/50, as she wouldn't be the first BPD to walk into court claiming the other parent hardly sees the child even when equal time is really the case.

Also. be prepared with a settlement offer that is better than what you'll settle for (wiggle room to negotiate) as the other side may want to settle moments before walking into court. The one time we had a settlement offer in hand, the other side was dead set on letting the court decide (we ended up getting a way better deal with the magistrate than what we asked for). The one time we were totally unprepared for settlement the majority of issues were figured out in the waiting room before the magistrate was even consulted and we ended up taking a terrible deal just because we came with no strategy and were unprepared.

[ForeverDad]

My ex had temporary custody during the temporary orders, one during separation and one once I filed for divorce.  Though my lawyer estimated the divorce at 7-9 months, it was nearly two years.  In all I lived with a temporary order for nearly 28 months and my ex had custody simply because she stated she "worked from home" even though she was not allowed in the family home and had to move out.

So there might be a risk the judge is inclined to assign one parent with temporary custody and majority time, who could be your ex who conveniently doesn't work.  So though the initial hearing will be very brief, you have to get the basic facts presented, that you've been doing 50/50 for the past year.  :)on't expect the judge to be 'fair' to you as father without you presenting basic information documenting how involved you are with your parenting.

FYI - I recorded because I felt terrified enough to need that 'insurance' to prove I wasn't the one misbehaving.  However, I did it in the background, from a pocket, etc.  I most certainly did not risk triggering her by waving a microphone around or in ex's face.

And of course, you need to be extra careful now not to let her get you agitated enough to yell or do anything that could be twisted to make you appear to be the one misbehaving.

Eventually, when you get a Custody Evaluation, and who knows what else done, the terms of the final decree will be crucial.  Though she is seeking full custody, this is highly unlikely, most courts are reluctant to grant full or sole custody without solid basis to do so.  (I became "Legal Guardian" eventually but it took over 5 years despite tons of documentation supporting it.)

Most divorces end with joint custody, apparently courts don't want a parent to feel shut out.  However, knowing that she is likely to let her moods and emotions continue running her life and result in obstruction, it would be best for you to seek, if not custody, then at least "decision-making" or "tie-breaker".

[livednlearned]

Nope has a good point. In looking at what you have documented, try to find examples of cooperative parenting. Even if it is obvious, it helps in court to have evidence to counter the claims she is going to make. Court moves so fast (if that's where you end up) and doesn't seem to care if the evidence is not there. But having the evidence there can undermine the false claim being made.

The fact that you can coparent with your ex wife, and have been 50/50 with the kids all this time is important in determining how a judge might rule. Good to have evidence to show for it.

[catnap]

I am still concerned about the lying... .anyone have any advice on that one? She is a liar... .for sure, she does it constantly and will deny it until she dies! help

Ask your L about deposing her.  If they have trouble keeping their lies straight it is a valuable tool in court to show that they change their story frequently.  When asked the some of the same question(s) in court there is usually an answer that is glaringly different from the one they gave in deposition.  It doesn't take many for the Judge to get the idea that she is not credible--i.e. lying. 

Then, when that testimony is introduced in court, and the pwBPD is cross-examined, it's a trainwreck for them.~livednlearned

Another approach is to have a list of triggering questions to ask--the goal being for her to drop her mask.  That is the approach my son's L used.  A series of "soft" questions, then throwing in a trigger.  After a few of these the mask dropped and she dysregulated.  I will have to say that watching it was uncomfortable because her answers went off into la la land.  She gave 6 very different answers to ONE question in under a minute.  Then it really started as she launched into lie after lie with no supporting evidence--some of it very bizarre. 

[livednlearned]

Another approach is to have a list of triggering questions to ask--the goal being for her to drop her mask.  That is the approach my son's L used.  A series of "soft" questions, then throwing in a trigger.  After a few of these the mask dropped and she dysregulated.  I will have to say that watching it was uncomfortable because her answers went off into la la land.  She gave 6 very different answers to ONE question in under a minute.  Then it really started as she launched into lie after lie with no supporting evidence--some of it very bizarre. 

My L did this too. And like catnap's experience, it was bizarre to hear the responses. And to know that they were being recorded and treated as sworn testimony. My ex was a former trial lawyer, so he knew what this meant better than anyone. Yet he still chased his tail 

At the end of a deposition, you get a transcript. The transcript includes a word count of everything that is said. It was kinda fascinating. I kept using the words "confusing," and "confused." That was one of the highest occurring words that came up. The other attorney started referring to me as confused in emails to my lawyer. That gave us a sign that he was going to try and characterize me as someone who was confused about what was happening. We talked about how we would respond if ex's L made that argument in court.

The other highest occurring set of words for me was "abuse" and "abusive." Our argument was that abuse is confusing -- that it is confusing to be married to someone who is jekyl one moment and hyde the next, without any clear warning or indication.

[m-and-m]

Thank you all... .I have a meeting with the L tomorrow... .Hopefully he has dealt with this before.

[m-and-m]

So i seen my lawyer today... .Her lawyer had already emailed him before i even got there... ."im not sure you are representing m-and-m, but if you are give me a call, i think we can figure something out here."

So i get there... .he tells me this, we go over the papers, chat some... .turns out he divorced is ex-BPDWife 2 years ago! so he knew exactly what i was talking about... .I explained all the issues, he told me that he will explain that if she continues the push for full custody we will push for psychiatric evaluation... .  and by the time i made it back home, he had called me... .things will be staying the same! Her lawyer said this was all over the dentist appointment... .however now we will have papers. Case closed!

[livednlearned]

Good news! What a relief. And helpful that your L knows about BPD -- it was the same situation with my lawyer. She had personal experience divorcing a BPD ex, although in my estimation, her challenges were much worse.

m-and-m, do you use any validation skills with your ex? It might help to apply those skills with her so that she is less likely to pull the lawyer card each time, costing you time and money.

[ForeverDad]

... .however now we will have papers. Case closed!

This is how poor behaviors and disordered perceptions can be self-sabotaging.  You will get a crucial thing you were lacking, written documentation of your parenting schedule.  It will be a stepping stone to ensure you remain a very involved parent.

Your child is young but very soon your child will be going to preschool, kindergarten, and school.  See what you can do to build your case that you should be the Residential Parent for School Purposes.  That way if she moves then you don't have to follow her every jump.

Anticipate the next triggers and incidents and plan accordingly to come out on top.

[m-and-m]

Good news! What a relief. And helpful that your L knows about BPD -- it was the same situation with my lawyer. She had personal experience divorcing a BPD ex, although in my estimation, her challenges were much worse.

m-and-m, do you use any validation skills with your ex? It might help to apply those skills with her so that she is less likely to pull the lawyer card each time, costing you time and money.

TBH I really only communicate with her about our child, thats it... .I tried to talk to her about what i thought was appropriate concerning how to handle situations with our daughter but she only agreed and did the opposite... .So i guess i really dont use any validation skills. I still feel angry with her about not going to counseling... .Now i just feel bad for my daughter, and it hurts.

Foreverdad... .Yes it was crucial to get this done. I have 2 other children in which i am very involved with as well... .Anyone that knows me or has ever met me knows that my fatherly duties are a priority to me. My ex-wife, and I coparent well, very well actually... .But my exBPD and I... .well, its much much harder.

how can you coparent with someone that, when they make a mistake or do something completely irrational or "crazy", they blame their actions on you? its just unacceptable.

[ForeverDad]

I tried to talk to her about what i thought was appropriate concerning how to handle situations with our daughter but she only agreed and did the opposite... .So i guess i really don't use any validation skills.

How she responds is her dysfunction.  Whether you use a little or a lot of validation, mindfulness or other communication skills, it is still her responsibility how she responds.  The reason for you to use your improved skills is to hopefully reduce triggering conflict, confrontations and incidents, for most of us here it is simply too much to hope to eliminate them.

I still feel angry with her about not going to counseling.

Even if she had gone, you have no guarantee she would have accepted or used anything she heard.  To paraphrase on old saying, Even if you can lead a horse to water, you still can't make it drink.  She's an adult, she has a right to choose her life's paths... .and consequences.

[livednlearned]

Validation can't eliminate conflict, and it's important to have good boundaries right next to validation. Like FD said, it's useful to try and minimize conflict for your sake, as much as hers, and definitely for the sake of the kids.

People think that validation is about being nice -- it isn't nice or not nice. It's just making the comment that the person has another experience that is different than yours. pwBPD don't have a sense of self, so validating them is part of helping them recognize that their experience is valid and real. Validation also does not equal agreement -- at it's core, it's about acknowledging an acceptance of the other person's different pov. That's why boundaries are also important. Accept and agree = no conflict. Accept and disagree = assert boundaries.

[m-and-m]

and can you imagine this... .She changed her mind. heading to mediation thursday. ugh.

[Nope]

and can you imagine this... .She changed her mind. heading to mediation thursday. ugh.

I'm not surprised. She saw the conflict was about to be over and just couldn't have that. My suggestion is to back and re-read all of the advice you've already been given. It sounds like he's L really wants a settlement. In my case the BPD mom's original L really wanted a settlement. My DH said he wouldn't take a deal that was less than what he could reasonably expect to get in court. Mediation with the BPD mom went absolutely nowhere. All she wanted to do was sit and toss around blame with no interest in finding solutions.

The day before we were supposed to go to court, her L contacted our L for our list of what we wanted in order to keep this out of court. When her L saw the list she said she didn't see any problem with us getting all of it. (We were absolutely fair and asked for nothing unreasonable.) She said she'd get with her client and get back to us.

She never got back to us. The next day BPD mom was granted a continuance so she could have time to find new counsel. I don't know if she fired her L for the crime of being reasonable or if her L quit on her because the L refused to go into a lengthy court process knowing full well BPD mom didn't have the money to pay her.

[ForeverDad]

My DH said he wouldn't take a deal that was less than what he could reasonably expect to get in court.

Courts, lawyers and the other professionals want a settlement and will allow delays in hopes of a settlement.  Courts are overloaded with crowded calendars so of course they prefer settlements but it could also be that the court hopes the parents will start working together as a productive start for their post-marriage life.  Lawyers too are used to settlements and some are merely form filers and hand holders with little Trial experience.  All of that will be subtle and not-so-subtle pressure to settle.  However, in our high conflict cases the other spouse is so entitled and controlling that an even halfway reasonable settlement isn't possible until the stbEx has a major hearing or trial looming.  Yes, many of our cases do settle, but generally only near the end of the case, on the proverbial court house steps.

So if this is mediation is not a final stage attempt, it is unlikely to succeed unless you gift away way too much.  Yet you do want to give it a chance, if only to report to your lawyer and the judge, "Yes, I sincerely tried but it still failed."

It's possible you may get an inexperienced mediator who will seek success at any cost.  Mediator may see that you are reasonable and ex is unreasonable and unwilling to budge at all, and decide to get you to cave in.  So if you get pressured to give in too much, don't feel bad that you have to stick to your boundaries and principles.  Likely your ex demands so much that you know the court would probably make a decision/order better than what you could get your ex to agree to.  If that is what you conclude, then consider mediation to have failed and proceed to court.

Mediation with the BPD mom went absolutely nowhere. All she wanted to do was sit and toss around blame with no interest in finding solutions.

Mediation is a place for Solutions, not a BlameFest.  Hear ex out, but have mediator keep it in check or cut it short if ex keeps getting off track.  Don't waste time and money, keep the case moving along.  (My lawyer estimated divorce at 7-9 months but it took nearly 2 years since my stbEx had a favorable temporary order and so delayed as much as she could.)

Remember, mediation is just an attempt, you don't have to - and shouldn't - agree to bad terms and conditions.

[maxen]

and can you imagine this... .She changed her mind. heading to mediation thursday. ugh.

really sorry for that. will you be bringing the L?

[m-and-m]

yes i will be taking my lawyer... .and currently it is a mediation.

Her problem... .She doesnt like my mom and doesnt want her to watch her while im at work... .She wants me to take her to her apartment and pick her up when i work... Im not really down with that...

I think it is infringing on my fatherly rights. She shouldnt be able to take me to court just because she doesnt like my mother.

[livednlearned]

Be cautious that you do not overplay your hand in mediation. She might be using mediation to gather information, to try and get a sense of what you will use to defend yourself in court.

Also, if she wants to engage for the sake of engaging, you might want to ask to mediate in separate rooms. The downside is that you don't get to hear what she is saying directly, everything goes through the mediator. The upside is that she won't be rewarded for trying to engage you through the legal system. You know her best -- what explains the sudden interest in mediation?

It's exhausting for us, but we have to think 10 steps ahead so that we can direct the conflict to our advantage as much as possible. We can't eliminate the conflict. However, we can minimize it.

[ForeverDad]

I think it is infringing on my fatherly rights. She shouldn't be able to take me to court just because she doesn't like my mother.

I faced that issue.  I just didn't want to get into her emotional blaming and her unsubstantiated allegations and so I chose to have daycare be declared equivalent to school as a substitute for me.  And both sets of grandparents were excluded.  My mother was in her 80s then and I didn't want her worried about contact with ex anyway.

Your parenting time should be Your Time.  Flip the situation, would she want you to dictate what happens on her time?  (Yes, I know it's common sense but your ex won't see it that way.)  In any case, you wouldn't want a lopsided agreement that states you can't have a grandparent care for the child, it would look like your mother had substantive issues.  If that was ever a part of an agreement then it ought to neutrally state neither grandmother could care for the children, or something like that.

If she doesn't 'like' your mother to be a caregiver, the court will only be concerned or see it as 'actionable' if your mother or her co-residents abuse children, partake of illegal drugs or similarly serious things.  Yes, she will be emotionally convincing/pressuring to the unwary but hopefully your lawyer and the mediator will frankly state it is not an issue to pursue and keep it off the table.

If she is really concerned, then maybe you can use it as Leverage to get something you really want but probably wouldn't get otherwise.  For example, if she otherwise might end up being the Residential Parent for School Purposes, then you could decide if that's something you would trade to become RP.  Technically it's supposed to be custody neutral but being RP lets your  residence decide the child's school and be a major contact for the school staff and not easily sidelined.

[m-and-m]

So i get a call from my lawyer... .the papers are settled... .but then he says we have to talk about something else not regarding the papers.

okay?

he names an old childhood friend of mine... .i say okay... .then he reads his rap sheet (he definitely has a bad rap... .no denying that) and then says "i agree with her here... .your daughter shouldnt be around him."

I then stated some facts... .I dont really associate with him, the last time i "hung out" with him was after the split(last spring), i took a weekend trip to a lake with him and his family... .other than that, maybe once a year we may chat or something... .mostly because i want to make sure he is on a good path.

anyhow, i believe she was just trying to make me look bad.

has anyone dealt with or had this happen to them?

I mean, why try and make me look bad? why continue the BS? I confronted her about somethings our daughter said... ."mom was afraid you would be mean to her if she didnt find my shoes." and then jumps me for how i confronted her... .followed by... ."im over this nonsense (custody) and just want to move on.

What is she doing here?

[ForeverDad]

Your ex is posturing to make you look to be a worse parent than her, even if all she has left is innuendo and distorted facts.

My ex didn't want me to use my parents as sitters.  They were both in their mid to late 80s.   I wasn't going to use them anyway but she had painted all my relatives black and so of course she wanted that exclusion in the final decree.  I said, "Okay, all grandparents won't be sitters."  This meant her parents couldn't be sitters either but she didn't get along with her mother for more than a day or two at a time* and her last visit with her father was when she was in her teens.  A non-event all around - I made sure it was written without blaming to either side - but she wanted to make a jab at me.

* Still doesn't.  Her mother moved in with her last summer but it was shortened to a visit.

[maxen]

anyhow, i believe she was just trying to make me look bad

yeah, she is. my exw, who drank until she passed out, used to make an issue with her family out of how much i drank. (and that i drank to any extent at all was due to being in her company.)

is your L is clear about your level of interaction with this fellow? it sounds like he doesn't even come into your home.