The little things I fall for...

[thefixermom]

When DD38 moved in recently we agreed that for this to work we would not talk about the past or extended family relationships because we know where those one-sided discussions always end.  :)D does not talk to any of her family and probably only in touch with me and DH because she accepted living here to save money.  We actually have some good conversations now that she has released her silent treatment.   It ended with a blow up a few days ago. I stood my ground even though I became hoarse in the exchange.   It wasn't really an exchange, it's always been her way or the highway so to speak and my gut told me that if I was going to remain in control of my home I had to stand up to it. I did and she finally gave up and as soon as she did, I responded the same way I do with my dogs or horses. I dropped the pressure immediately and engaged pleasantly with her.  :)H (stepdad), who used to jump into the fray, making it worse, retreated as soon as he saw things escalate, and went into the next room, leaving it to me.  It was a tough battle but worth it.

So after a few nice enough days, DD is fixing her breakfast and I'm in the adjacent room doing my thing. She brings up an old but unresolved (to her) topic about extended family and starts reliving it.  It occurs to me that we shouldn't be discussing it because we had agreed not to have these types of discussions. But before I know it I go into my old way of thinking, which is, "just listen to her, validate her and let her get it said."  I'm thinking that I do not want to be in this conversation at all and one of her old manipulations is to tell me, "you never just listen to me!"... .so sucker me, is here, listening to her (to be nice), feeling sorry for her to be obsessing over historical events and hating being a part of it.  As she talks on and on, she gets herself a bit worked up and I suggest we remember our agreement and that no good thing will come from this so let's end it before it gets any worse.    She talks over me and gets louder.  I stick to my guns and tell her that I'm not going to engage.   She is pretty angry at this point and she amazes me with her next comment.   She says, " YOU are the one who allowed this conversation to start so YOU are already engaged and it's YOUR fault for letting me talk about it!"   LOL, oh dear.  Yet another example of me getting in trouble trying to do the right thing vs remaining true to my gut feelings.    Then, once she sees that I'm not going to let her keep going with it (takes a few stern assertions on my part) she says, "So let me get this clear!  You are making another threat right? You are in essence saying that I will be thrown out if I continue to talk like this!" And I say, "I'm saying that we both agreed you living here will not include any of us talking about bad times in the past. It was your idea, remember?"  and she says, again, "Okay so you ARE saying that I will not get to live here if I go on, thus you are threatening my security."   Before I can say another word, she says, "I'm done! And this is why you'll never be close to me!" and goes back to her breakfast-making and in her frustration she whispers to herself, just loud enough to know I'll hear her:  "Psycho!"    I don't respond, letting her have that last little word if that's what she needs to save face.   She goes into her room, eats her breakfast, re-emerges and is pleasant.  

I don't know about everyone else here but for me, at this time, holding fast to the boundaries, not taking things personally, and being firm, but not letting any bad thoughts linger in me, i.e. when she turns nice I am immediately positive... .seems to be working better than anything else I've done.   I won't fall into "trying to be nice" when it's not authentic again and allow a historical venting session to go on unchallenged from the beginning (nip it in the bud).  I think giving her the floor to validate her just tells her it's okay to get herself worked up and then blame me for it when it gets out of control.  And... .it just ruins the peace in the home.   My DH shouldn't have to be putting up with these circular never-ending "fights" in the background of his home life either.  I recognize she has a strong need to talk about these things.  I'm just establishing that I'm not the person for these discussions. It needs to go to a girlfriend, therapist or anyone else who has the patience and ability to hear it.  I have to tell you, this feels real good compared to all the times (for decades) in the past where we tried to nurture her with patience and long listening sessions, with short term, at best, results... .and typically to no avail.   When she lives elsewhere she has behaved very well.  She knew that roommates wouldn't tolerate such talk for long.  She wants to stay here right now bad enough that she's making herself get over things faster. I think that is a good new habit that might have some long term gains for her.

Stay tuned... .we shall see!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

Hi again fixermom,

I'm glad to hear that you and your daughter discussed your boundary in advance regarding having conversations about past situations.  It's also good that your daughter didn't take too long to return to baseline after she got so upset.  It seems that she is pushing you to push her, trying to get an emotional reaction to assuage herself/her feelings.

When you had the initial boundary setting conversation with your daughter how did you describe what you would do should she not honor the agreement that you both made?  What did you inform her would happen?

lbj

[thefixermom]

Hi lbjnltx,  I did not inform her what would happen.  She was actually the one to bring it up ahead of time when we were discussing a few things that we would both need to live together.  She said, "let's agree that we will not talk at all about the past."  We both said that was one of the important "rules" we would need to co-exist.  She often refers to me as "having all the power," in that I can make her leave if I want to.  And in the past, when she was volatile she did get told she was going to have to leave. We had threatened to call the police but instead called in others to help us when she either hit me or broke something.  Those days are behind us, thankfully, but perhaps they did have a lasting effect on her by showing her that I will call in reinforcements if things get real bad.  When she pushes the boundaries now and doesn't back down after more than a few requests to stop, I do finally say, ":)o you really want to live here?" or I will say, "Move out if you think this behavior will be tolerated elsewhere."  I don't mean to trigger her insecurity.  To me, it's a natural consequence of her outright rebelling or acting overtly disrespectful.  I would certainly say those things to anyone else behaving in that manner.  I have often given her passes for her behavior, feeling great compassion and sympathy for her self-made circumstances. I was also afraid she would move far away and live in unhappy or dangerous circumstances. She knew my weaknesses and would exploit them. I would defend her to others in the family who had put in a lot of time and money but felt rejected by her.  I'm wanting this to work and I am a different person now.  I feel more sure-footed about my vision for our relationship and I'm no longer subject to feeling guilty or responsible for her choices today.  That's why the big fight a few nights ago.  On the inside I had been feeling some of the fearful emotions of what might be going on in her head while she was in retreat, but I continued to carry myself in a detached and peaceful manner.  I suspect she  may  have thought she had the same ole mom who was going to tiptoe around her and fall to pieces when she rejected me, pleading for her to restore our relationship.  That didn't happen and when she pounced on me verbally,  to her surprise I pounced back hard and relentlessly till she broke, so to speak.  I'm not recommending this as a hard and fast rule. Timing is everything and my gut said it was time.  I trust my gut!  The same gut has saved her life more than once... .long ago stories of the past... .so when it gave me the green light, I drove through it.

[thefixermom]

We have had two medium fights and one big fight in the 10 or so days she has been here, plus several days of silent treatment from her.  Not as good as I'd hoped but interestingly enough, the "feel" of her being here is very much improved over the last time and I sense that we are entering a new level of getting along.  I'm proud of her for regrouping quicker when I stand steady in the fire and I'm proud of me for not melting into an emotional puddle any more.  During the peaceful times I take note of the trust we do have with each other that wasn't there before. 

[lbjnltx]

Good to know that you are happy with the way this turned out.

I found that when situations like this occurred with my daughter and she would back down it was only temporarily.  The next time she became emotionally dysregulated the previous incidents would creep back up again and add more emotional fuel to the present fire.  I may have won the battle and I was losing the war. 

I wanted my daughter to learn that others have feelings, needs, and boundaries.  This is something usually learned through the growing process in a healthy family.  With BPD kids they are so emotionally driven to self focus that this eludes them and we as parents become so lost in the FOG (fear obligation guilt) that we struggle to properly teach the concept of value based boundaries through modeling.  Enforcing our boundaries is more important than setting boundaries because it teaches appropriate behaviors and healthy self protection/preservation, decreases the likelihood of co dependent behaviors, and does so gently yet firmly.  Consistency is the key to learning this lesson.

I, like you, had to call in reinforcements a few times due to the violation of a very serious boundary... .threats of violence against myself and threats of harm against herself.  I was very careful to be compassionate yet firm because she had no skills to do any better at the time.  I had clearly stated this boundary well in advance and also let her know what action I would take to protect this boundary (my safety and her safety).  It took more than once for her to accept and comply with not violating this boundary.  I was also careful to do all I could to let her know that I was not abandoning her as this is at the root of her disorder.

More than anything I wanted my daughter to learn to have her own value of self and set value based boundaries to protect herself.  I wanted us to have a trusting relationship while she went through the individuation process. Because my d also had ODD everything could become a battle... .I didn't want to win the battle and lose the war so I deferred to my boundaries... .everything else was negotiable.

Since you work with horses I think you would agree that it's best to have mutual respect between horse and human gained through compassionate training over a period of time than have compliance through breaking the spirit of the horse by hobbling.  One takes much more time, energy, compassion than the other and I would trust that horse whether on the ground or on it's back.  No one will find me on the back of a horse that doesn't respect me and vice versa.

lbjnltx

[thefixermom]

Very thoughtful input, thank you.  I'm sure we (DD and I) are still coming into balance having been through many wars.  I'm gauging some of the results by how well she bounces back in a way that feels real... .and not just superficially placating me.  But I will also take your experience and wisdom to heart as best as I can.  DD came down to the corrals this afternoon to update me on a situation in her life and I asked her if she had a ponytail rubber band I could put in my hair as I'd forgotten mine. She pulled one out with a genuine smile, pet the horse and then started walking off. I said, "Hey, do you want to ride?" and to my delight she said, "Yes!" It'd been a few years since she was in the saddle.  I gave her a couple brief pointers, she received them well and asked for a few more.  She had a great time just walking and trotting around for close to an hour while I did some chores in the vicinity.  She was chatting at me almost the entire time.  Can't remember the last time we just had some fun together for this long without reservation.

[livednlearned]

Hi thefixermom,

I'm glad you and your D are entering a new level of getting along. My T and my son's psychiatrist always talked about how safe a child feels when there is structure and firm boundaries, and it sounds like your D wants you to have strong boundaries that you enforce. 

When DD38 moved in recently we agreed that for this to work we would not talk about the past or extended family relationships because we know where those one-sided discussions always end.

 

When I do this with my son, I try to discuss in advance what the ground rules are when it happens. Because if it's something big enough to discuss in advance, then there's a good chance it's a habit we both have, it has a lot of energy, and therefore most definitely will happen. That second part of establishing boundaries (how I will enforce them) has helped me cut down on the messiness that comes up when a boundary is crossed.

Do you two do this with boundaries? With my son, in the event he does lock and load, our agreement is that I will hold up my hand, and then walk away into another room and we will talk when things have cooled down. Holding up my hand was his idea, he preferred that to specific phrases I thought would work. We talked about how to regroup after, and he said when he comes out of his room after he has hit his flash point, that's when it's ok to broach the subject.

It ended with a blow up a few days ago. I stood my ground even though I became hoarse in the exchange.

What happens when you simply repeat "no" or "stop"?  Or if you give her advance warning about how you are going to enforce your boundaries? Going hoarse sounds like a lot of effort 

I think giving her the floor to validate her just tells her it's okay to get herself worked up and then blame me for it when it gets out of control.  And... .it just ruins the peace in the home.  

It sounds like your D found loopholes in your boundaries. That means the boundaries need work... .not that validation is not working, or is making it worse. Validation is accepting that she had a different experience than you, so it's not necessarily about being nice or not nice, it's more just acknowledging that she is her own individuated and separate person, with her own thoughts, feelings, perspective. Enforcing boundaries is a different skill. It's a hard one   

Also, it's great that your H is able to remain neutral so he doesn't end up in a drama triangle. That's a big deal! How did you two get to that point?