Update to Questions on My BPD

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

As far as how she is when she drinks... .

She drinks a good amount, and I have no doubt that drinking contributes.  Things may start off well but after a few beers, her drink of choice, she starts to bring up out of the blue  things she mad at.

Right now she is just panicking and cant stop crying.  She calling me here at work.  Saying she cannot find comfort in eating, sleeping, anything.  She saw her doc yesterday who told her to see a psychologist for eating disorder.  Right now I do not know if I go home and take care of her or what.

She just seems to be losing it.

What do I do?

[hurthusband]

As far as how she is when she drinks... .

She drinks a good amount, and I have no doubt that drinking contributes.  Things may start off well but after a few beers, her drink of choice, she starts to bring up out of the blue  things she mad at.

Right now she is just panicking and cant stop crying.  She calling me here at work.  Saying she cannot find comfort in eating, sleeping, anything.  She saw her doc yesterday who told her to see a psychologist for eating disorder.  Right now I do not know if I go home and take care of her or what.

She just seems to be losing it.

What do I do?

[hurthusband]

she saying she is miserable and will eventually die to me and saying i do not care.

I do care... . I came back home like she asked and she just wanted to work on a project instead of spend time which is fine and I brought her some beer she likes which was probably not a good idea, but only thing she enjoys at all.

things went fine until about 10:30 when she went to take a bath and was upset thinking her project crap was crap and worthless.  Everything was bad at this point.  She was a bit critical of me and negative about everything, but no real attacking.  at 11:30 she was saying i could go to bed cause she knows I need 8 hours of sleep a night, but I tried to talk to her more because I care and she said it in a way that hinted irritation.  I asked and she said that she wasnt tired and always alone and wouldnt be able to sleep.  this went on and at 12:30 she wanted me to take her to eat cause she did not eat with rest of us earlier.  Took her to eat and went home at 1:30 am.  she was better then and we went to sleep... . now today... .

I thought that shows I care.  I stayed up super late, got her a small item she likes.  I suppose I need to do more... . I just do not know.

[an0ught]

I thought that shows I care.  I stayed up super late, got her a small item she likes.  I suppose I need to do more.. I just do not know.

Right. It is best practice to shovel faster when faced with a bottomless hole 

Please consider boundaries. You can't prove you way out of her need to get validation. Her need is infinite. Yes, you can give her as much high quality validation as you can afford. But there are limits.

Don't beat yourself up over the fact that you are limited. This is human! She won't be getting all she claims she needs. It may well be validating to tell her that "it sucks to not get all you want from your H." She feels that way and you can't change that. She feels that you are failing her. You can diminish it with targeted validation but for the time being she is depressed and will radiate negativity. You can only help here turning down the volume. And don't believe for a minute that your are failing her - you are not. But she may well claim she feels that way. Let her - her thinking is distorted.

The way to put breaks on her unreasonable "needs" are boundaries. The way to reduce the extremity of her emotions is validation. Trying to fill her needs is a game you will eventually loose as without boundaries her needs will escalate beyond your physical, financial or other means.

What is happing at the moment is that you are neglecting your own needs in a way that will eventually undercut your ability to stabilize the relationship. You have valid needs and are entitled to take care of them. It is compassionate to provide food to someone who is hungry. It is wise to protect your sleep as well. Whether you need to fill her need for food that she caused herself is questionable. As an exception maybe. As a rule it may well be better to value your own health and thus your sleep more. If you believe your sleep is a very important value then a boundary and going through the inevitable conflict may well be better for you in the medium term.

Boundaries start with thinking clearly about your values and priorities. What are your values?

[hurthusband]

well i didnt go home 5 hours ago and now she is hammering on me as it is that i do not care.

I did not call neither, but this mornings he was mad i woke her because the dog moved when i entered the room.  I was scaredto call her and certainly not wake her again since she said she was taking a sleeping pill and going back to sleep

I love her, but I cannot do this.  I am the only support she has and its destroying me and she is self destroying herself.  

I see her not wanting to feel this way and hurt like this.  She has no clue how to stop the pain.  I can understand her frustration.  It is wrong what she is doing, but its like a drowning person who pulls somebody else under.  They are just trying to survive

[GaGrl]

Yes, you are accurate in saying that she has no clue how to stop the pain.  She is attempting to soothe her pain with alcohol, with sleeping pills, with food (or lack of), and with blame-shifting to you.  None of these ways to alleviate pain will work, because they are all external to her.  She must, as is said in therapy, "do the work" to effect the change from within herself.

[hurthusband]

I am just terrified to talk to her at all times now.  I just texted to see how she is because I feel aweful for how she feels, but at the same time, I am scared to death the response I will get.  When I hear my phone beep my heart races and I feel adrenaline shoot through my veins out of fear. 

I do not know that I can give her the help now because myself is so messed up from all of this, but i am literally the only person left in her life.  I am trying to keep her going and alive while at the same time disintegrating.  I know that if I removed myself everything else would normalize, but she would tank more. 

I want to help.  She says I am a major part of the problem.  I just do not know if I am and how to change to not be.  How to help her... .

[EaglesJuju]

I am just terrified to talk to her at all times now.  I just texted to see how she is because I feel aweful for how she feels, but at the same time, I am scared to death the response I will get.  When I hear my phone beep my heart races and I feel adrenaline shoot through my veins out of fear. 

As many people on here have stated, you are not responsible for her behavior. It is okay to be empathetic, but you are letting her behavior control and affect your life. It is going to continue to be incredibly difficult to try to heal and work on yourself if you are constantly living in fear or being affected by her behavior.  Do you agree?

I want to help.  She says I am a major part of the problem.  I just do not know if I am and how to change to not be.  How to help her... .

I understand that you want to help, but hurthusband you cannot help her if you are not able to. Do you think what she said about you being a major part of the problem is true?

[hurthusband]

I understand that you want to help, but hurthusband you cannot help her if you are not able to. Do you think what she said about you being a major part of the problem is true?

I do not know.  I do not trust my own self anymore.  I do not know if how I was raised and have been has skewed my ability to look at things objectively

[EaglesJuju]

I understand that you want to help, but hurthusband you cannot help her if you are not able to. Do you think what she said about you being a major part of the problem is true?

I do not know.  I do not trust my own self anymore.  I do not know if how I was raised and have been has skewed my ability to look at things objectively

I am not familiar with your FOO or your upbringing, but you can change your ability to have an objective view. 

It would be hard to trust yourself when you are struggling with internal conflict of emotions and logic.  The best way to learning to trust yourself is to balance logic/rationality with your emotions.  This is a way to learn to critically assess things objectively. 

Do you tend to rely on how you feel to perceive things?

[hurthusband]

Do you tend to rely on how you feel to perceive things?

No, I am very right brain thinking.  I am very methodical, analytical, and routine.  That has actually led me to my current predicament.  If everything logical does not work, and she believes I am crazy, and while I do not say it, I believe she is crazy.  There lies the possibility I am crazy.  A crazy person does not know they are crazy. 

She just called and first thing was to tell me to go to work tommorow after i scheduled day off and people to come in.  I tell her that and its why cant people always come in.  Just a drubbing.

Everything I believe she believes the polar opposite.  I feel I am one way and she sees me another.  I see her one way and she sees herself in the pain i see her in but still more victim rather than having any fault, but she says i am at fault and do not admit and she does not admit... .

Is it not just as possible I am crazy as she is crazy? 

[EaglesJuju]

No, I am very right brain thinking.  I am very methodical, analytical, and routine.  That has actually led me to my current predicament.  If everything logical does not work, and she believes I am crazy, and while I do not say it, I believe she is crazy.  There lies the possibility I am crazy.  A crazy person does not know they are crazy.  

It is good to rely on reason (being methodical, analytical, and routine) to help you plan and evaluate things logically. The caveat is, when we completely rely on this way of thinking, we forget about emotions, needs, and desires. Ideally, you want to balance both emotions and rational thinking.  

It is easy to forget, what you may consider logic, may not be considered logical to your wife. To rectify this rely on what you know: What does your emotions and logic tell you?

Everything I believe she believes the polar opposite.  I feel I am one way and she sees me another.  I see her one way and she sees herself in the pain i see her in but still more victim rather than having any fault, but she says i am at fault and do not admit and she does not admit... .

Unfortunately, that is the nature of the disorder. There is a lot of dichotomous thinking and projection. You are willing to accept her accusations and constant blame towards you. The only way anything is going to change, is for you to stop taking ownership for all of her problems and blame.

The best way to help with your perception of her is to truly learn to radically accept her behavior and the disorder.  You cannot change what she thinks about you. You can only change the way you perceive yourself.

Keep reminding yourself that you did not cause her behavior or disorder.

Do you blame yourself for her behavior?

[hurthusband]

i do not blame myself for her disorder, but i view her as wounded and i want to help, but when i get near to help i get bitten

last night she kept calling so i blocked her.  she kept saying i never cared and i dont care.  then bringing up things i said in the past in heat of moment that were wrong, but also the same thing she has said to me countless times.  She called me a murderer, because when she was pregnant and asked me what we should do when all this stuff really heated up like it is now and first physical abuse started i said i support anything she does and its her decision.  she pushed and i said that this might not be the right time to have a child since we are talking divorce and i do not want to do that to a child.  now she blames me all for it.  when she was upset before we did it i said lets not go there and do it and lets just have the child and we can figure it out.  i didnt want her to hurt like that... . but she insisted that it should be done and was logical.  it all ended up horribly and was a mistake.  now im a murderer in her eyes which hurts.  i feel badly over my opinion on the whole thing to this day.  honestly, maybe i am what she says.  i never bring up the fact that it was ultimately her decision though because i do not want to be that cruel. 

i said i have to get rid of her a week ago because i was ready to die... . i cannot take all of this.  she held that against me but she says taht same thing every other day. she says she hates me and will find another better person constantly.  she uses kids against me saying i wont be able to see the and they dont care about me... .

last night she went into tirade that i did not leave work the day before when she was down and not handling things.  i asked if i should.  at same time, this routine is every day!  i dont know what i should do.  i know i am trying to keep a job.  she hammered me last night and asked for divorce then asked for some of my xanax cause she was out of sleeping pills.  i asked how she could ask for a favor after saying all she did.  i drove across town at 9 pm to get her some and she said i could sleep in sons bed who was with his real father.  i said i do not think its a good idea after she said what she said.  i am terrified to.  she became nasty and let into me.  she demanded off call block again... . i took her and she let into me so i put her on call block as she called me a loser and mocked me in texts.  calling me names and a cowardsaying i was a horrible person and husband. says she hopes she never sees me.

today she wakes me up saying she been in bed for 3 days and saying i have shown no concern... .  saying i only care about my work and saying it got done.  saying i only cared about my dead end career and mother. 

i do not talk to my mother cept a little at work... .  i coudl sleep in her massive house if i wanted but i sleep at office because my wife hates her.  i finally told her that i cannot live up to her expectations.  even though i make 6 figures i cannot just make what she wants over night.  i cannot work a job like that and be home whenever she wants and all the time like she wants.  i cannot stop others from hurting her.  i can be caring and compassionate but not if she is constantly going to hurt me when i do.  i will make mistakes and i will fail.  there are good and bad consequences to everything also and i cannot stop all the bad ones... .  i explained that she feels compassion and love more than anyone i met, but also pain and anguish and when she feels those the self preservation side comes out and she can hurt people without even realizing it but its not malicious i know.  i explain it kills me to see her like this. i know she is just trying to stop the pain.  at same time im getting hurt by her trying to help and i cannot live like this.  i cannot leave though cause i also love her.

it seems the only help or peace she can receive is in death.  she will not go inpatient and she got rid of one of her docs and other doc says she doesnt think she is at that point.  She cannot function.  i am to the point that i am terrified every waking moment of her and in my dreams.  i love her and hurt seeing her like this.  i cannot live seeing her like this and also what she does to me.  at same time i cannot live with myself abandoning her neither.  i feel in same spot she is.

[EaglesJuju]

she kept saying i never cared and i dont care.  then bringing up things i said in the past in heat of moment that were wrong, but also the same thing she has said to me countless times.  She called me a murderer, because when she was pregnant and asked me what we should do when all this stuff really heated up like it is now and first physical abuse started i said i support anything she does and its her decision.  she pushed and i said that this might not be the right time to have a child since we are talking divorce and i do not want to do that to a child.  now she blames me all for it.  when she was upset before we did it i said lets not go there and do it and lets just have the child and we can figure it out.  i didnt want her to hurt like that... . but she insisted that it should be done and was logical.  it all ended up horribly and was a mistake.  now im a murderer in her eyes which hurts.  i feel badly over my opinion on the whole thing to this day.  honestly, maybe i am what she says. 

Although she blames you quite often, there is a lot of acceptance of that blame.

Your wife is clearly projecting her own feelings and emotions.

I have had a lifelong problem with accepting responsibility and blame from others. I understand how painful it is.  It is a vicious cycle of accepting others projection---internalizing those projections--reinforcing/believing the projection---low self-esteem/guilt--anxiety/depression. It becomes even worse when you factor in the person who is projecting is disordered. Of course if you believe these things, it is going to make you feel horrible.

Take a moment and view this with logic and rationality (which I know you are good at).  She is disordered. Disordered people tend to be illogical, irrational, and as you mentioned, abusive. They use maladaptive coping mechanisms. Reality as they know it can be distorted.  Now, why would you take the things a disordered person says, who is obviously projecting, at face value? Do you feel guilty?

i said i have to get rid of her a week ago because i was ready to die... . i cannot take all of this.

This is a serious comment. Do you still feel this way?

she held that against me but she says taht same thing every other day. she says she hates me and will find another better person constantly.  she uses kids against me saying i wont be able to see the and they dont care about me... .

Why do you think she says these things? Think logically and rationally before you answer this.

last night she went into tirade that i did not leave work the day before when she was down and not handling things.  i asked if i should.  at same time, this routine is every day!  i dont know what i should do.  i know i am trying to keep a job. 

It is not your responsibility to be her psychologist, psychiatrist, father, mother, emotional punching bag, or servant; you are her husband. I think you struggle with knowing what your role in your relationship is and what is should not be.  The constant appeasing screams "Yes Man."  How do you perceive your role in your relationship?

she hammered me last night and asked for divorce then asked for some of my xanax cause she was out of sleeping pills.  i asked how she could ask for a favor after saying all she did.  i drove across town at 9 pm to get her some and she said i could sleep in sons bed who was with his real father.  i said i do not think its a good idea after she said what she said.  i am terrified to.  she became nasty and let into me.  she demanded off call block again... . i took her and she let into me so i put her on call block as she called me a loser and mocked me in texts.  calling me names and a cowardsaying i was a horrible person and husband. says she hopes she never sees me.

Is this rational or normative behavior?   

today she wakes me up saying she been in bed for 3 days and saying i have shown no concern... .  saying i only care about my work and saying it got done.  saying i only cared about my dead end career and mother. 

Do you honestly believe this is true?  Go back and re-read what you wrote.

i finally told her that i cannot live up to her expectations.  even though i make 6 figures i cannot just make what she wants over night.  i cannot work a job like that and be home whenever she wants and all the time like she wants.  i cannot stop others from hurting her.  i can be caring and compassionate but not if she is constantly going to hurt me when i do.  i will make mistakes and i will fail.  there are good and bad consequences to everything also and i cannot stop all the bad ones... .  i explained that she feels compassion and love more than anyone i met, but also pain and anguish and when she feels those the self preservation side comes out and she can hurt people without even realizing it but its not malicious i know.  i explain it kills me to see her like this. i know she is just trying to stop the pain.  at same time im getting hurt by her trying to help and i cannot live like this.  i cannot leave though cause i also love her.

I think you are completely right hurthusband. No human can live up to these expectations.

How did you feel after you said these things to her?

As others have said, the only way you can really help is to take charge and put yourself first. It is not healthy for either of you to continue living this way.

it seems the only help or peace she can receive is in death.  she will not go inpatient and she got rid of one of her docs and other doc says she doesnt think she is at that point.  She cannot function.  i am to the point that i am terrified every waking moment of her and in my dreams.  i love her and hurt seeing her like this.  i cannot live seeing her like this and also what she does to me.  at same time i cannot live with myself abandoning her neither.  i feel in same spot she is.

Have you spoken to other professionals about your situation? If so, what have they advised you to do?

[hurthusband]

so much to answer.  basically she called a few times today to chew me out.  i am just done.  toast. it was how i need to do something serious to try and save this marriage.  all on me.  i told her its not all on me.  that i do make mistakes but i am not all bad and alot of what she has had happen has been unfair but also some of her own doing

she got nasty and made threats.  i said i could always call police since she is on probation.  when away from her i can think rationally, but with her its such an onslaught i cannot

[hurthusband]

well... . its confusing. she calls on occasion after asking me not to call her.  she apologizes for this but we have to be done and i am not a bad person she says.  I say she is not a bad person neither and she has so many talents.   but then it goes back to who is at fault.  her blaming me and me saying i did do wrong, but i did do good.  baisclaly JADE but i just do not know what to do at this point.   she is taking shots while trying to be nice... . but also seems she wants me back

[EaglesJuju]

well... . its confusing. she calls on occasion after asking me not to call her.  she apologizes for this but we have to be done and i am not a bad person she says.  I say she is not a bad person neither and she has so many talents.   but then it goes back to who is at fault.  her blaming me and me saying i did do wrong, but i did do good.  baisclaly JADE but i just do not know what to do at this point.   she is taking shots while trying to be nice... . but also seems she wants me back

How did it go back to who was at fault? What triggered her?

Arguing back with her will only exacerbate the situation.  You are arguing with someone who is emotionally unstable, nothing productive can come from that. 

[OnceConfused]

Hurthusband:

This woman gets you going around in a circle for a long long time now.

Based on what you said, do you see that your conversation with her really goes around to NO WHERE.

You have to make a decision as to what you really want  in LIFE and go for it.

[hurthusband]

good example of how it works is last night... . i should point out i am not living at home

so i get back to my office where i am staying and she had texted a couple of times while i was getting ready to sleep.  Saying she is really depressed and nobody to talk to.  She had tried calling so I call her back.

She is kind and saying she is just feeling really bad, and how the loss of her parents is really hard with having no job nor purpose.   I state that it has to be very hard and horrible.  I do not think I could handle it as well as she could.  Then she states how my living arrangements at my office is not fair to my step father who owns the place and a few other things like I need to get another place too.  Now, I cannot afford to support both her household and another one since she has no income and goes through alot of money.  I do not say this, instead just state that I feel she is being critical of me and that it is really not her concern.  She goes off that subject then starts to say she wonders if I will ever wonder if I really did all I could to save this marriage, obviously implying she feels I did not do all I could to save our marriage.  I state that I will have regrets of some things I have done, but that I gave it all I had, but once again I feel she is being critical.  She then devolves it into being nasty and how I am basically at fault.  That is hardest part.  If i say anything that has actually happened, it is abusive of me such as her hitting me a few days ago.  She can bring up something I said a week ago.  My point is we both have made mistakes, and we need to put them in the past and move forward.  She just seems to want to not let go of the past which she does with everyone and blame me solely.  She states more things, and I state that the conversation has become abusive and I am going to hang up.  She states if I hang up, I will never see the kids again.  I sit and do not say a word while she goes off, and she hangsup on me saying to never contact again.

So I do not.  This morning, I get a call with her apologizing.  She states she was critical due to feeling badly.  That is the thing I cannot get her to empathize with others about.  She did something wrong that she admits is wrong, but she is asking for forgiveness and that it is due to something horrible.  Completely understandable. Does not make what she did right, but understandable.  The problem is she refuses to look at the wrongs other people do and take that in consideration claiming them as pretty much evil.  For instance, my mother scolds her and makes a wrong veiled threat of harming her career or something after my mother finds out my wife told me she would never let me see the kids which broke my heart.  Wife never forgives that as she sees it as an out of the blue attack on her.  I scolded my mother on what she said (i was still not going to be allowed to see kids), but I understand she did it trying to protect me.  It is not a correct reaction, but understandable human reaction.  Another example, my wife wants me out of the house as I sit on the couch.  She tells me horrific things how she feels about me and how the kids feel about me.  I have never heard things like them but I do nothing.  She then says she is going to call the police and tell them I hit her just now which never happened.  THAT crossed a line and I stated her parents (who died 3 months earlier) would be ashamed of that behavior.  She goes ballistic saying that is the most evil thing ever said.  Now, it might have not be right to say, but I think if somebody is told they are going to be falsely accused and arrested by somebody they are going to be a bit more upset than what I did.

Anyways.  I suppose I handled last night well... . not sure.  I certainly questioned myself all this morning until she apologized... .

[EaglesJuju]

She states more things, and I state that the conversation has become abusive and I am going to hang up.  She states if I hang up, I will never see the kids again.  I sit and do not say a word while she goes off, and she hangsup on me saying to never contact again.

Why didn't you just hang up?  You set a boundary and then quickly took it back once she threatened you. Continuously not abiding and sticking to your boundaries, only reinforces her controlling/manipulative behavior.  She knows how to get you do whatever she wants. It is not going to improve if you do not stick to your boundaries.   

The problem is she refuses to look at the wrongs other people do and take that in consideration claiming them as pretty much evil. 

This is dichotomous thinking (black and white).  I think a large problem that you are having is that you keep trying to rationalize her irrational behavior.  You keep wanting her to act "normally," when she is incapable of that.  This way of thinking is only going to add to the dysfunction. 

Another example, my wife wants me out of the house as I sit on the couch.  She tells me horrific things how she feels about me and how the kids feel about me.  I have never heard things like them but I do nothing.  She then says she is going to call the police and tell them I hit her just now which never happened.  THAT crossed a line and I stated her parents (who died 3 months earlier) would be ashamed of that behavior.  She goes ballistic saying that is the most evil thing ever said.  Now, it might have not be right to say, but I think if somebody is told they are going to be falsely accused and arrested by somebody they are going to be a bit more upset than what I did.

When she starts projecting and blaming you, the best thing for you to do is get up and walk away. If you walk away, you do not have to listen to the vitriol, or you do not have the chance to say something back to her. Her emotions are so erratic, intense, and short-lived. As you know what she feels one moment, she may not feel later. 

[GaGrl]

hurthusband,

Yes, you continually let her cross your boundaries, and that is when she starts spinning out of control.  You let her do so because she threatens you, but her threats are empty threats.  When you say you will hang up, if she continues to re-hash old situations or when she is verbally abusive, then hang up.  Because you know by now, because it has happened over and over and over again, that even through she says never to contact her again, SHE will contact YOU.  Again -- her threats are empty.  She has no more control over her actions than a child does.

I continue to suspect that she contacts you when she is "feeling low" when she has been drinking far enough into the afternoon/evening that she is, indeed, becoming depressed or maudlin.  If you know she has been drinking, don't talk to her.

This re-hashing of what you each have experienced, over and over and over again, is getting neither of you anywhere.  She gets away with not dealing with it herself, because she can call you and foist the blame on to you.  You've apologized for anything you did (and for WAY too much that you did not do), it's old news, don't let her take you there anymore.  There are no solutions you can offer her.

As to getting you own place, perhaps you should do so and let her know how much you can continue to contribute to her household.  Telling her that you can't pay for $30K a year in medical cash outlay should get you a pretty nice place.

[hurthusband]

I think a large problem that you are having is that you keep trying to rationalize her irrational behavior. 

That is VERY true.  I do not feel it is fair for me to just assume its more of her craziness each time she says something because that could be a trap and an excuse for myself.

The one problem with her rage and her irrationality is it is not short lived.  It goes on for days.  She is rational for about 1.5 days maybe.  That in itself might mean I need to get away.

As far as the 30k helping out me get a place.  The one problem is to pay most of that, it went on credit cards .  So i guess I just wont be sinking now

[EaglesJuju]

I think a large problem that you are having is that you keep trying to rationalize her irrational behavior.

That is VERY true.  I do not feel it is fair for me to just assume its more of her craziness each time she says something because that could be a trap and an excuse for myself.

The one problem with her rage and her irrationality is it is not short lived.  It goes on for days.  She is rational for about 1.5 days maybe.  That in itself might mean I need to get away.

Hurthusband, all of her irrational behavior and rage is part of her disorder. The disorder does not go away for a few days and resurfaces. Her disorder is a permanent thing. She can have rational thoughts at times, but when she is irrational it is because she is triggered and emotionally dysregulating.  During periods when she seems rational, you need to try to not to think she is "cured" or does not have a disorder.

What you truly need to realize is that YOU cannot fix the disorder. You truly need to stop blaming yourself for her disorder or behaviors. The continuous self-blaming is only going to make things worse.  That is something that you need to fix yourself.

My pwBPD ,who can be incredibly self-aware at times, has said to me often, "EaglesJuju, you have done everything for me and would probably give me the world if you could, but this is a problem (his disorder) that I have. I need to fix it myself. It is not your fault and you did not let me down, I let myself down." 

[hurthusband]

Ok... . she is ill and will never be well.  She can get better in therapy, but it is always going to be rought at times.

How do you know that you are not the problem?

How do you know when things are so bad its severe abuse and you need to leave because its just not going to get better in the sense of, not good, and even bad more than normal, but is just downright bad for all involved?

Our 12 year old the other day said he said we need to get divorced and move on or stop all of this... . 

Finally, if I move on... . how do I prepare for not just the pain of having to leave the one I love, and the guilt of it, but the onslaught that is to come from her?

[EaglesJuju]

Ok... . she is ill and will never be well.  She can get better in therapy, but it is always going to be rought at times.

Exactly. 

How do you know that you are not the problem?

I think you need to keep reminding yourself that she is disordered. You did not cause it and are not the source of it. You really need to start believing this. You are going to be conflicted if you continue to blame yourself.

We can add to the problems of the disorder by the way we behave and think. It is essentially us making things worse. In a relationship with a person who is severely disordered, we step up and be more emotionally mature. This has to do with our expectations. We need to have realistic expectations of the disordered person. If we do not have realistic expectations of the disordered person, we essentially are living in their distorted version of reality.

How do you know when things are so bad its severe abuse and you need to leave because its just not going to get better in the sense of, not good, and even bad more than normal, but is just downright bad for all involved?

I think you have gotten to a point where you rationally know that the current situation is out of hand.

You have a few options which you have been struggling with for a very long time. In my opinion, I think your internal struggle has to do with self-blame, guilt, and your way of thinking that she is logical and rational.

I know how hard it is to break a pattern of self-blame and guilt.  Honestly, those are your issues and not hers. You will figure out what option is best by working on all of your issues.   

Our 12 year old the other day said he said we need to get divorced and move on or stop all of this... . 

This is a very wise statement from your 12 year old.  Do you agree with him? 

Finally, if I move on... . how do I prepare for not just the pain of having to leave the one I love, and the guilt of it, but the onslaught that is to come from her?

If this were to happen, you would need to become unaffected by her behavior and words.  Again these are your issues to work on.  Before you come to any decision, I would suggest working on these things and avoiding and not contributing to the chaos.

[an0ught]

hurthusband,

Ok... . she is ill and will never be well.  She can get better in therapy, but it is always going to be rought at times.

How do you know that you are not the problem?

hurt, sense of responsibility and fear of guilt  . The crux of the problem is you are part of the problem. We co-dependents are prone to become part of the problem - been there, got my fleas - and at the moment you are part of a problematic dynamic. BPD sort of is a condition that affects the pwBPD, then affects the relationship until the non gets affected as well. At the moment both sides have issues and there is so much conflict you can't help the other.

How do you know when things are so bad its severe abuse and you need to leave because its just not going to get better in the sense of, not good, and even bad more than normal, but is just downright bad for all involved?

It is extremely hard for a man to acknowledge abuse   . You are dealing with severe abuse and it is moot to wonder about how much severe is enough. You have lived through a progression of abuse and unless there are significant changes there is further risk of escalation. When thinking about what to do when I'm conflicted I found it useful to think about the consequences my decision might have. What are reasonable best and worst cases - sometimes difficult as under pressure our b&w thinking kicks in. Can I live with the consequences, can I accept the consequences of not deciding?

Obvious choices - there may be more - are:

- stop abuse situationally - strict boundaries. Requiring stamina to go through several extinction bursts, develop real good boundary skills and practice them diligently for the foreseeable future, possibly leads to an end of the relationship.

- stop abuse generally - separate in some form (temporary or permanent). Requires decision to make potentially permanent changes. As there is a child and likely some form of ongoing relationship boundary and communication skills are needed as well but the distance will help you.

It is a very difficult situation and any path incl. not doing anything will have painful consequences.

Our 12 year old the other day said he said we need to get divorced and move on or stop all of this... .  

Finally, if I move on... . how do I prepare for not just the pain of having to leave the one I love, and the guilt of it, but the onslaught that is to come from her?

You are afraid of having to shoulder the consequences of your decision. That is normal. What puts you in a difficult spot is that you are at the moment shouldering the consequences of indecision and have exhausted your energy. Any change you make will bring new pain but then it will also relieve current pain that at the moment is exhausting 3 people.

What happens once you walk in one direction then it becomes easier to make decisions. Sometimes it is a good idea to start with smaller decisions and build up some momentum. Two reasons to consider to start with smaller decisions: First your self esteem has suffered from abuse. A good was to restore is to reassert your ability to make small changes by deciding, implementing and accepting the consequences of it. Build a track record with yourself. Second is that any movement in a direction will allow you to think one level deeper, have deeper discussions on leaving or staying strategy. This may clarify and confirm your direction or you may learn from experience that the path needs adjustment.

EaglesJuju has  posted some good questions... .

[hurthusband]

Ok... . I think I need to stop a second her and take a look at myself because I am starting to really feel crazy

First to state my wife point of view about the past 5 months that killed our relationship... .  Only from her point of view.  I can go into my point of view or view of events later I suppose, but I want to get opinions on even from her point of view what would have been healthy for me to do because if you all hear her point of view and still think I acted rationally, then maybe I can remove some of this guilt.  This is going to portray myself poorly here, but  lets see how this goes

My wife feels that this series of events lead to her not being able to trust me nor be with me for fear of being hurt again and me not protecting her

1. Night before my mother in law died, my wife was at hospice and upset.  My mother said she would go up and purchased alot of gourmet food and drink for my wife and sister.  My mother stayed the whole night with my wife and according to my wife was drunk and started at one point crying talking to God about how she was tired of all the pain and death.  Wife point of view is this was making it about her and taking way from the moment.  After that, though my wife and mother still got along quite well

2. The night of my mother in laws funeral, my wife and mother visited for hours into the evening with my wife calling me to pick her up cause she had been drinking saying the evening was one of the best evenings she had had

3. My mother does not call my wife for a week greatly hurting my wife and she felt abandoned.  Around this time I also express how I am concerned how I am going to get money in the next few days to pay off taxes.  My wife feels I am asking her to find it

4. My wife asks my mother why she has not contacted her.  My mother states that she figured she needed time to process and she will contact her later, but does not.  At this point, my wife is mad at my mother for abandoningh er

5. Wife kicks me out of house and we have an argument.  Not stating particulars here, but I *mistakingly* mention this to my mother who then texts my wife to leave me alone and stop tormenting me or she will protect me herself (something like a vieled threat).  to which my wife states to never contact her again or she will contact police

6.  My grandfather dies.  At funeral, my mother walks past my wife and kids without acknowledging them

My wife in her viewpoint feels that I did nothing to protect them or hold them accountable. 

What should I have done?

[OnceConfused]

Hurthusband:

Instead of asking us what you should do next, let's turn the table around. What if I was the one who wrote the previous post here, what would you recommend ME TO DO?

[EaglesJuju]

First to state my wife point of view about the past 5 months that killed our relationship... .  Only from her point of view.  

My opinion on her point of view is that she suffers from a disorder. She has a distorted view of reality. If you are living in the reality of her point of view, of course you are going to feel like you are crazy.

The death of her parents has been very difficult for her.  She wants to blame all her sadness/mourning from the loss of her parents, your mother's behavior, and financial issues on you. She has been projecting all of her issues onto you and you are accepting it.  

I do not see anything that is directly "your fault." You cannot control her behavior or your mother's behavior.

Ruminating on what you should have done in the past is not going to help you with your situation.  You cannot fix what already happened, you can only change things in the present time.

My wife in her viewpoint feels that I did nothing to protect them or hold them accountable.

What about her accountability?    

Hurthusband, I think it is time to start letting go of the guilt. You have given her everything that she wanted, you have self-sacrificed, and have essentially given all of yourself.  :)o you think that you gave everything you could?

You can keep doing the same thing over and continue to give, help, fix, or whatnot and expect the same results. You are not going to fix her, only she can with the help of professionals. You can support her and be there for her, but to do so you are going to have to let go of some of your certain beliefs.  This is where your own self-awareness comes in.

Instead of focusing on her point of view, I think it is time to start focusing on yours.

[hurthusband]

Here is something that makes it harder... .

Last night my sister contacts my step father who is divorced from my mother recently and still hurts over it.  She started saying she found what she thought was drugs in my mom's fridge.  She had confronted my mother over it and mother said it was indeed hash which my sister knew she used, but sister thought it was something worse.  I do not condone any of this, but she brought my step father in who started obsessing and going on and on about everything about my mother to me.  Of course at same time my wife is texting and its midnight and Im stressing

  I tell my sister this morning that is greatly upsets her father when she involves him in his ex wife's things and it might not be teh best course of action.  She gets furious and starts bad mouthing my wife and saying how I am messed up. 

I just do not know.  Everyone is telling me I am messed up in the head.  I feel that they are all messed up in the head.  Maybe we are all messed up, but I am trying my best to keep peace.  I try and understand others realities and try to communicate mine to better understand each other, but I am just ___ing it all up. 

I obviously have issues with co-dependency and self esteem and all of that, but it just seems EVERYONE thinks I am crazy and hurting everyone basically in a selfish manner and cowardly manner.

I do not want to be that... . I have now heard it from sister and wife but they are all crazy in my mind... . I just do not know what to do.  I just want to be a better person

[EaglesJuju]

I just do not know.  Everyone is telling me I am messed up in the head.  I feel that they are all messed up in the head.  Maybe we are all messed up, but I am trying my best to keep peace. 

You are trying your best. You are trying to solve everyone's problems but your own. You are not going to establish peace, if you do not work on your own problems.

Who is telling you that you are messed up in the head, your wife, your mother?  Think about their accountability. There is a history of your family members projecting their problems onto you. 

I try and understand others realities and try to communicate mine to better understand each other, but I obviously have issues with co-dependency and self esteem and all of that, but it just seems EVERYONE thinks I am crazy and hurting everyone basically in a selfish manner and cowardly manner.

The only person that you are hurting is yourself.  Do you agree with this?

I do not want to be that... . I have now heard it from sister and wife but they are all crazy in my mind... . I just do not know what to do.  I just want to be a better person

Stick with what you believe and do not doubt yourself. Keep re-reading what you just wrote and let it sink in.

Becoming a better person starts with you.