First "issue email" my wife has sent me in a long time

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

She knows she did a lousy job of keeping house, she can't admit that you can do better so you have to fail too in order to validate her standard. You are not allowed to be more capable of running the house than her, that is what she is emphasizing.

In her mind you have to fail no matter what you do, in order that you can't prove she was incompetent or lazy.

FF,

I think WR nailed it. If your wife is like mine, she cannot stand it when you do something in her realm better than she does. It makes her feel incompetent and challenges her sense of self worth, which is probably pretty low if she is a typical pwBPD.

Another part may be pure jealousy. If she got a job flying a recon plane and did it better than you, would you feel jealous? Bet you would. Now add BPD and it is jealousy to the 10th power for her, and the only way she knows to deal with it is to tear you down to her level or below.

 

[Cole]

She knows she did a lousy job of keeping house, she can't admit that you can do better so you have to fail too in order to validate her standard. You are not allowed to be more capable of running the house than her, that is what she is emphasizing.

In her mind you have to fail no matter what you do, in order that you can't prove she was incompetent or lazy.

FF,

I think WR nailed it. If your wife is like mine, she cannot stand it when you do something in her realm better than she does. It makes her feel incompetent and challenges her sense of self worth, which is probably pretty low if she is a typical pwBPD.

Another part may be pure jealousy. If she got a job flying a recon plane and did it better than you, would you feel jealous? Bet you would. Now add BPD and it is jealousy to the 10th power for her, and the only way she knows to deal with it is to tear you down to her level or below.

 

[Cole]

Anyone dare me to use ask her about baby just being in diaper?   

FF

You retired Navy guys have guts... .

[formflier]

Thoughts on... .

"I feel blamed... ."

"I won't participate in a circular argument... ."

"I will be glad to talk when we can stay on topic... ."

"I haven't heard an answer to my question... ."

"I haven't heard usable words from you... ."

Hi ff,

You asked for some feedback on above.

Are these a selection of what you are saying to your wife on leaving varying degrees of a dysregulated discussion ?

If they are, stop using them 

Apart from perhaps 'I feel blamed... .', I would feel very condescended to if you spoke to me using those replies. pwBPD would probably quite triggered and invalidated.

How about, ' let's talk about this later... .' and saying 'I don't want to talk about this now... .' is fine, no further explanations necessary.

I wouldn't bring things up again later or at any point unless your w does first. Really try hard like max says in his post to stay away from this stuff. Your w doesn't really want a response from you, if you pick up the gauntlet it's just JADEing.

No... .not using them.  Today the two times I walked out of the conversation... .I just got up and walked out... .each time she got louder and louder.


So... .me standing... .louder... .walking to door... .louder... .out the door... .louder still.  Anyone in house could hear her.  I went to front porch and could still hear her ranting by herself... .

FF

[formflier]

Anyone dare me to use ask her about baby just being in diaper?   

FF

You retired Navy guys have guts... .

Let me up the ante to dare me to ask her why baby is running around house naked... . 

Yep... .all through lunch.  Note... .I'm not particularly bothered by this (nakedness)... .other than the hypocrisy... .

[Grey Kitty]

I'd walk away instead of any of those. Here's how I'd interpret each of them... .with emphasis on how they are more about your judgment of her (invalidating) than how they are about your feelings. (which are much harder for her to disagree with)

"I feel blamed... ."

I feel that YOU are blaming me

"I won't participate in a circular argument... ."

I won't participate in an argument where YOU are taking me in circles.

"I will be glad to talk when we can stay on topic... ."

I will talk when YOU can stay on the topic *I* want to discuss.

"I haven't heard an answer to my question... ."

YOU haven't answered MY question.

"I haven't heard usable words from you... ."

YOU are speaking in unusable words.

When I suggested "I" statements, this wasn't what I was thinking about. More like "I can't discuss this now." or "I'm too triggered to talk about this."

Perhaps the best kind of "I" statement you could make right now would be something like:

I'm going fishing. See you at dinner time.

[Cole]

Anyone dare me to use ask her about baby just being in diaper?   

FF

You retired Navy guys have guts... .

Let me up the ante to dare me to ask her why baby is running around house naked... . 

Yep... .all through lunch.  Note... .I'm not particularly bothered by this (nakedness)... .other than the hypocrisy... .

It is a trap. Don't take the bait; she wants a fight and you are not giving it to her.

[formflier]

 

GK,

I think you are right... .I guess I did it today as good as I can/could.

The reality of my situation is that on some days I have to take the leftover lemons and make lemonade... .and understand that I will be blamed for it later.  Should I say there will most likely be an attempt to blame me in the future.

Email Response:

I have a hard time figuring out PA behavior.  I don't want to do it... .  The nebulous part is that it seems to matter about your intent.

My life is immensely better since we stopped emailing each other about things... .our r/s is better as well.

So... .my thought is that I would not respond via email at all to what she sent me.  But I would offer to discuss it face to face... .when she seems ready.

However... .how do I figure out if that is PA... .or if that is good decision making.

I'm not "afraid" to email my wife... .I believe I have realistic view that little good will come of it.  

Thoughts?

[formflier]

It is a trap. Don't take the bait; she wants a fight and you are not giving it to her.

This is so against my Naval Aviator instincts... .  By nature... .we are tough guys... .not afraid of confrontation... .pretty much any situation where a fire is simmering... .we want to pour gas on it... .and see what happens.   

[Cole]

It is a trap. Don't take the bait; she wants a fight and you are not giving it to her.

This is so against my Naval Aviator instincts... .  By nature... .we are tough guys... .not afraid of confrontation... .pretty much any situation where a fire is simmering... .we want to pour gas on it... .and see what happens.   

That is the difference between flying into combat and responding to the email. One of those situations is winnable. 

I think you are right in not responding to the email. She will find something in it to get mad about, because that is what she is looking for. She needs to tear down your STAHD abilities to feel better about herself, and she is not going to be satisfied until she does or until she finds something else to feel good about.

[Cole]

It is a trap. Don't take the bait; she wants a fight and you are not giving it to her.

This is so against my Naval Aviator instincts... .  By nature... .we are tough guys... .not afraid of confrontation... .pretty much any situation where a fire is simmering... .we want to pour gas on it... .and see what happens.   

That is the difference between flying into combat and responding to the email. One of those situations is winnable. 

I think you are right in not responding to the email. She will find something in it to get mad about, because that is what she is looking for. She needs to tear down your STAHD abilities to feel better about herself, and she is not going to be satisfied until she does or until she finds something else to feel good about.

Keep up the good work at "not making it worse" and it will pass once she realizes you are not going to give her the fight she wants. After all, pwBPD are not known for their stick-to-it attitude... .

[OffRoad]

While I agree she used the email for her own emotional validation, most of you are missing one point: is there something that NEEDS to be done during the day that is not being done because FF is doing projects around the house?

Maybe this has nothing to do with anything, but with my H, there is usually one item out of the entire list of issues he has that is the problem. It might have been the Jobulator thing. It might have been the sharp implements being left out where the little could get them.  But as a woman who worked outside of the house while H was a SAHD for a few years, I was majorly P/O'd to find the back patio spotless, and four loads of laundry needing to be done at the end of the day(and that laundry had needed to be done for four days and I had asked politely for it to be done three times). Great. The patio looks wonderful. There is no clean underwear for anyone, though. I was also majorly P/O'd to be stuck with canned chili for dinner three nights in a row because he hadn't made it to the grocery store. But the inside of his car sparkled.

Don't dismiss everything as it being a BPD issue before you step back and take an honest look at what you both think needs to be done during the day, or over the course of days. She may have some valid points, but is delivering them the wrong way.

[Verbena]

I agree that your wife has a problem with your taking care of the house better than she does, and she cannot allow that.  She has to rip you apart over it so she can feel better. 

I am a decorator and have people compliment me all the time on my sewing, painting, and decorating skills.  My H cannot stand this and refuses to compliment me on anything, ever.  I also keep a very clean home but never get any praise for that either.  He is a master at finding fault with what I do, though. 

I have some questions for you:

1.  Has your wife been diagnosed with BPD and, if so, does she accept this diagnosis?

2.  Do your older children know their mother has a personality disorder? 

3.  How do you manage to post here with her knowledge (assuming she does not know) and do you fear her reading what you post? 

[formflier]

 

Note about tools... .I went and got basket she was talking about.  (small tote).  No saws or anything in it.  A pair of scissors was laying next to it.  No idea who put them there... .

I removed all of them... .and haven't mentioned it again... .don't intend to.

I'm "OCD" about the kitchen... .sink... .loading dishwasher... .all of that.  So... .counters were spotless... .NOTHING stored in sink.  When it comes time to make something... .instead of washing it "real quick" in sink that it is sitting in... .and having to move junk out of sink to be able to wash it... .you open a cabinet or drawer... .get your item... .use it and prepare the food.  As you are considering your next moves in cooking... .rinse and put in dishwasher that is slowly filling up as you prepare the meal.

My wife does it differently... .I do it my way... .she does it her way.  I had not mopped during the day... .but had swept a few times.  

She claims to be fastidious about mopping and keeping floor clean... .every so often I see evidence of that.  She complains about us wearing shoes in house.  Yet... .more often than not wears her own shoes around in the house.  

She now will check before grumping at me about shoes... .I've seen her look down... .see her shoes... .and remain quiet.



So... .honestly... .we come up with different definitions of NEED.  We had previously agreed... .though she now remembers it differently... .to give up some of my time doing other things around house to finish the projects (she complains they take too long)

Now... .the version is that I just did what I want... .and blew her off... .

FF

[formflier]

I

I have some questions for you:

1.  Has your wife been diagnosed with BPD and, if so, does she accept this diagnosis?

No diagnosis of BPD.  She is very high functioning.  Family T indicated he leaned more towards PPD (paranoid personality disorder).  He said that labels were triggering... .and his formal diagnosis for insurance purposes was "adjustment disorder".  Primarily because her traits blossomed after an event... .vice being at this level for most of her life.

I have PTSD... .it was not well managed after the same event... .she didn't adjust well to having a hubby working through PTSD. 

2.  Do your older children know their mother has a personality disorder? 

My older children participated in family T as well.  I am not aware that they know either of our diagnosis... .but were coached on family dynamics and expressing themselves.  We were coached on how to better interact with them as well.

3.  How do you manage to post here with her knowledge (assuming she does not know) and do you fear her reading what you post? 

I'm a bit OCD about my security procedures... .if she figures it out... .she figures it out.  I see this as part of my mental health work.  It's really as much about me getting healthy as it is her... .

Big stride forward in our r/s when I stopped letting her participate in my mental health work.  We do MC together.  She has a T that she occasionally sees now.  I haven't mentioned a word about that to her or EVER discussed or asked what she and her T have discussed.

Hope this paints a picture of the choices I've made... .thanks for questions... .keep'em coming.

[OffRoad]

Thanks for the explanation, that helps a lot. Yeah, the clean kitchen I'm sure sets her off.

So... .honestly... .we come up with different definitions of NEED.  We had previously agreed... .though she now remembers it differently... .to give up some of my time doing other things around house to finish the projects (she complains they take too long)

^^^That is important, too. Projects usually do take too long, and that's why they get put on the back burner a lot of times. But they still need to get done. As long as you each get some of the things you consider important on the finished list at the end of the day.

RE: Jobulator suggestion. In person, in passing.

"Oh, hey, about Jobulator. I did not mean to overstep my bounds when I accepted that last job for you. I was under the impression it made things easier for you. I'll just delete it off my phone."

[Grey Kitty]

It is a trap. Don't take the bait; she wants a fight and you are not giving it to her.

This is so against my Naval Aviator instincts... .  By nature... .we are tough guys... .not afraid of confrontation... .pretty much any situation where a fire is simmering... .we want to pour gas on it... .and see what happens.   

That is the difference between flying into combat and responding to the email. One of those situations is winnable. 

I run a serious risk of getting into political issues which don't belong on these boards... .but I would say that the parallels between responding to that email and combat are deeper... .

You can "win" in combat as an aviator... .as in successfully perform combat operations, but work against the cause of your nation. (Pearl Harbor for Japan, comes to mind, but please don't get sidetracked on specific examples; I'm not a historian, military or otherwise)

FF could send an email which is "correct" and identifies facts, and proves  his case... .a 'win' but it will make his marriage worse, not better.

The big difference is that as a naval aviator, it wasn't his choice when, where, or why to go to war, only to execute it properly.

As a husband and a father, he's responsible for making the choices... .and then carrying them out.

[vortex of confusion]

Anyone dare me to use ask her about baby just being in diaper?   

FF

You retired Navy guys have guts... .

Let me up the ante to dare me to ask her why baby is running around house naked... . 

Yep... .all through lunch.  Note... .I'm not particularly bothered by this (nakedness)... .other than the hypocrisy... .

I would up the ante and say this:

"Why aren't the girls in outfits that match?" 

[formflier]

 

The good part of being a Naval Aviator... .is that we are trained to deal with what we have... .have situational awareness about what the reality of my situation is.

Also... .to understand how my airplane is flying... .so that my chances of recovering aboard the carrier... .are as good as possible.

Many times... .I've not liked the way the airplane was flying... .or something was busted... .or had been on fire... .or... .all kinds of stuff.

I had a choice... .I could make the best of it... .or I could get wet... .or... .worse.

So... .I don't particularly like the way my marriage and family work.  But... .I've learned how to fly it better than I did a year ago... .and it does work better.

Still trying to "trim it up"... .so it will fly hands off.  We'll see... .   

Hopefully that made sense to some of you guys... .

Bonus question:

Was it over when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor?

 

[formflier]

I would up the ante and say this:

"Why aren't the girls in outfits that match?" 

[waverider]

Bonus question:

Was it over when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor?

 

Thats a BPD type question, sounds like a reasonable question except the facts of the question are twisted to provoke an argument.

[OffRoad]

Was it over when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor?

Forget it he's rolling... .

[formflier]

Was it over when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor?

Forget it he's rolling... .

[123Phoebe]

The money thing might need to be new thread... .if that is unclear or you guys think that needs to be sorted out.

Hey, FF; I'm kinda thinking it might.

Bottom line: Finances:  We really need the money.  If she doesn't work... .it will put us in further pinch.

We "need" her to teach... .she will have more financial choices she can make since there is more money... .but it is not disastrous if she doesn't.  :)isaster is no food or shelter.

What is this "need" then?  Is it about her learning a lesson where money is involved?

Money issues can be a major source of problems in a marriage. 

[babyducks]

Please evaluate... .comment on the following walk away statements from me to her when I am leaving a conversation.

I'm also fine with just walking away... .but hoping to find something more effective... .if there is such a thing.

Hi formflier,

This has been a great thread.  I've learned a lot.  It's always easier to decipher what is going on in my relationship by watching someone elses.   

These are my criteria for leaving a conversation that has the hallmarks of becoming circular or deregulating.

Whatever I say has to be a honest and kindly expressed reflection of my emotions.

Whatever I say should not be an attempt to manage, placate, or mollify my SO's emotions.  That's her job.

Whatever I say should not be a reaction to an inflammatory statement or inflammatory itself.

Here is why I think that.

Sometimes I just don't want to deal with another episode and don't express anything about how I feel.  Timing can be critical but it's important for me as an ~equal~   partner in this r/s to fit in a "I statement".   Something as simple as 'I need to take a break.  I will be back in 30 minutes.'   It helps me to recognize what I need.   It's a healthy statement. 

Some of my most carefully crafted virtuoso statements of validation have fallen flat on their faces because they weren't my words.  They didn't really reflect something I honestly felt or thought.   Some of the silliest validation statements that fell out of my head unprepared did work because they were heartfelt.  My SO's highly sensitive emotions really cause her to be sense if I am dissimilating, placating or condescending to her.  Honest, kindly expressed, and mine.   

If I can't do that, I absolutely should not try to address her feelings/emotions.   Like a lot of other posters have said.  Time for me to walk away.   I try to acknowledge I have heard her message.  Very very very simply.  If it's reasonable I'll say something like 'wow you gave that a lot of thought, let me do the same'.   If it completely unreasonable, I just say 'ok'.   

And then the trick is to let it go.   Circular arguments and deregulation episodes have been so damaging for me and my r/s that I have really worked at identifying them and getting out of them.   It's very unnatural to walk away while being told what we need to do and how we are the problem.  Walking away in the face of the ranting is exactly what we need to do.   There is nothing for you down that road.  Don't take it.  Go in another direction.   

The first couple of times I got out I didn't do it very gracefully.   I can do it gracefully now.   And thankfully it's become a pattern in my r/s that my partner can respond to.   

I liked a lot of what Grey Kitty wrote in this thread.   Especially the part about leaving her alone.   It reminded me that it takes a pwBPD longer to return to emotional baseline.   

You've done a great job with this thread and working through this.   My wish for you is that as clarity continues to grow.

'ducks

[formflier]

What is this "need" then?  Is it about her learning a lesson where money is involved?

Money issues can be a major source of problems in a marriage. 

My job loss has dealt a major blow to finances... .she now struggles more to solve the financial issues she faces.

So... .she "needs" it to not be as hard... .more $$ means it is easier to solve. 

I interpret a lot of this as "wants"

Yes... .major problems around money... .I think she is frustrated at the results of taking on the finances... .making the decisions. 

This year she was the most heavily involved in taxes she has ever been... .this is good.  My goal is that next year she has a choice... .I can be involved and we can do it as a collegial partnership with no accusations and blaming from her... .or... .she can do it herself. 

I've seen she has the skills... .and she understands it much better.

So... .some long term thinking about setting up a boundary... .and choices.

FF




[/quote]

[Grey Kitty]

My goal is that next year she has a choice... .I can be involved and we can do it as a collegial partnership with no accusations and blaming from her... .or... .she can do it herself. 

FF, I expect this attitude (and goal, as stated) will just make sure that finances stay a hot button in your marriage for the next year. Think about it... .

I read this as you judging her to be messing up, blaming her for taking the stupid/irresponsible way to do it, and offering her a chance to do it "your sensible way" ... . with the kind of "sensible discussion" that you keep wanting to have with her ... . that hasn't worked well for the last year.

She's gonna smell that a mile away, and nothing good will come of it.

How about setting a goal that YOU can achieve with or without her cooperation?

I'm assuming that you will get a job eventually, and take a lot of financial pressure off of the household, and that would be a time to try some changes.

One I'd recommend is that you make a system with three sets of bank accounts and credit cards (if appropriate):

Ones in your name ONLY, for your personal expenses. (Like putting gas in your car)

Ones in her name ONLY, for her personal expenses.

Joint ones for clearly defined joint household expenses.

[I think I recall you having some rental properties as well... .perhaps that business needs its own account]

She will kick and scream and fight and perhaps dysregulate over it... .but in the end it will make things better--It will provide some clear boundaries around money, and clear boundaries make for less conflict. Every time.

Set up your paycheck to be deposited in fair portions in the various accounts.

[lbjnltx]

Joining the convo late... .and still choosing to join 

In the email from your wife I sense growing resentment.

In response to how to exit a conversation that is going in circles, blaming, accusing, or abusive... .this statement has worked for me and was preceded by a clearly stated yet firm and gentle boundary:

"I am going to take some self time to think about this.  When we are both calm we can revisit this discussion."

[formflier]

 

Well... .I got up this morning... .got all kids up... .made breakfast... .brought wife a biscuit in bed... .kids were ready to go to church ahead of time.

As time gets close to go to church she comes in room and starts in about taxes and describes a fantasy version of what I did yesterday about doing taxes.

I tossed rules out the window.  Went to file drawer... .took out two huge files that didn't exist yesterday.  Invited her to sit down and go through what I actually did yesterday and firmly informed her that I would not discuss things that didn't happen.  I told her I didn't like the way my day went yesterday... .I felt bad... .that I had done my best and I was frustrated about the status of things as well.

I reitereated that I would be happy to discuss what I actually accomplished... .but I would not listen or participate in conversations about what I didn't do.

She picked up a vase with a dozen roses that I got for her and walked down the steps... .dysregulated and was downstairs shouting about how I never defend her... .don't care about her... .never once have listened to her.

So... .while this is not part of the rules... .I guess getting her to the point of a dysreg let it come out. 

I have no idea what I was supposed to "defend her" about... .the rest I have heard before... .and I suspect there is nothing new there.

Very frustrating... .I feel good about standing up for myself... .I realize on some other fronts I may have set myself back some. 

What she is asking for is impossible.  I actually was up early this morning reading about DEARMAN in the lessons... .maybe I'll try to set one of those up... .

Thinking about future boundaries... .decisions... .  Next year... .me doing taxes while being b___ed at is not on the menu.

I can do them... .she can be happy... .or mad and keep to herself.

She can do them... .and be happy or mad with herself.

They can not get done and consequences can follow.

Are there other options?

FF

[vortex of confusion]

What she is asking for is impossible. 

What do you think she is asking for? Why do you think it is impossible?

Thinking about future boundaries... .decisions... .  Next year... .me doing taxes while being b___ed at is not on the menu.

A lot can happen in a year. What good are you getting out of trying to predict the future?

Is it really b___ing? Or is it an extinction burst?

I can do them... .she can be happy... .or mad and keep to herself.

She can do them... .and be happy or mad with herself.

They can not get done and consequences can follow.

Are there other options?

All of these options seem a but cut and dry. What option do you think is best for the family as a whole? Is it possible for you to make that determination without mentioning whether or not she will be happy or mad? If you took her out of the equation for just a minute, what do you think the best option would be?

[formflier]

 

What she is asking for is impossible.

What do you think she is asking for? Why do you think it is impossible?

With her... .it's the "ands".  I can only be in one place at one time... .I can only solve the problems I can solve... .so... .what she is saying I should be capable of doing (and not saying it very nicely)... .is that I should get taxes done, keep house clean, matching outfits on girls, refer to list at start of email (the email she sent me).  She now says... .all that plus taxes... .

"I've told you to get those done and I told you to clean the living room... .so what is the problem... .?"  (those means taxes... .I think)  :)irect quote

She will also say "we agreed on this... ."  when what really happened is she "told me" and in many cases I said no.

Thinking about future boundaries... .decisions... .  Next year... .me doing taxes while being b___ed at is not on the menu.

A lot can happen in a year. What good are you getting out of trying to predict the future?

Is it really b___ing? Or is it an extinction burst?

This year she was most involved that she has ever been on taxes... .and has learned a lot.  If she has a chance to pull it off next year... .she will need to keep records... .prepare to do it her way... .and all that now.

A lot of that statement is for me... .to remind me that while this year is the best taxes have gone in long time... .I will not repeat this year again.  Lots of other things are on the table... .but a repeat of this year is not.

Hmmm... .extinction burst... .from what boundary or action on my part.  I'd have to think on this

I can do them... .she can be happy... .or mad and keep to herself.

She can do them... .and be happy or mad with herself.

They can not get done and consequences can follow.

Are there other options?

All of these options seem a but cut and dry. What option do you think is best for the family as a whole? Is it possible for you to make that determination without mentioning whether or not she will be happy or mad? If you took her out of the equation for just a minute, what do you think the best option would be?

Good questions... .the best option is for her to learn how to do the taxes and actually do them... .and have the confidence, knowledge and understanding that comes with that... .and not depend on me for that.

I should have said "expressing" happiness or "madness".  Maybe I should say "negativity".


Here is the thing... .she has made claims for years and years about how she can do this and that (financially)

She made the big power play with money and took control.  She has asked (some direct and some inferred) to be rescued several times from the responsibility she has taken on.  

I haven't... .and I'm not going to do it.  She either will figure it out on her own... .or she won't.

FF