oh, yeah - THAT's why I'm seeking divorce

[getting_better]

Separated for 10 months from my soon-to-be ex wife (dBPD).  Let her know last month that I was filing a divorce petition. She's been so steady / stable and loving for so many months I thought I would try to get her input on Alimony.  We've been married for 23 years, so I'll definitely be paying for awhile.  Was really hoping to get to get through this divorce without attorneys.  I texted her, and the exchange quickly devolved into this:

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Text message from her: Cut the bull****. I'm finally immune. You are no more concerned for me than you are the next person. It's about you, and always has been. This past year has opened my eyes to who you really are. You'd be surprised the things I know about you, and it will all come out. You've already done your best to destroy me, yet here I stand... .stronger than ever and able to play your game right along with you. I'm strong enough to go head to head with you if you want that. I'll tell the truth like I always do, and finally - FINALLY - be free.

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It was a harsh reminder of why I left her in the first place.  Constant allegations about me and my behavior that are SIMPLY NOT TRUE.  I'm always mystified - scratching my head - thinking 'what in the world could she possibly be talking about?'.  And then I remember who and what I'm dealing with. 

I'm meeting with a divorce attorney on Monday. 

[rarsweet]

Don't you love how they always say we are the ones playing games? So sorry.

[jedimaster]

I think you reminded a lot of us why we're posting on this board and not on Staying.

[ForeverDad]

I don't know about the milder cases, but my primary 'predictor' between Staying and Leaving is just this:  Is he or she in effective/progressing therapy or refusing/denying it?

Yes, progressing, try Staying.

No, refusing, head for Leaving.

Of course, everyone is different, each case has its own uniqueness.  What taking either path always keep your options open... . Staying may turn out to be "Staying For Now" if no real progress... . Leaving may be reconsidered if you see real improvement over time, real action versus easy promises.

[ugghh]

Wow, that read almost exactly like the messages/emails I used to get from my now ex-wife as we went through the whole divorce process.  I was married to her for 26 years, divorce was final July last year.  I can tell you it gets easier and easier to just completely ignore the crazy as you get further in the process. 

As you go through the process you may at times feel yourself sorry for your ex or like she deserves something - like when you say I wanted to discuss alimony with her.  After 23 years and especially now that you have gotten away from her for a bit, you probably realize that no matter what she "agrees" to, tomorrow it will change.   I highly recommend that you get Bill Eddy's book Splitting and read it.  Then make sure you have an attorney who is very experienced in handling high conflict cases.

[Thunderstruck]

Sometimes it feels like they're all the same person.

We're two years into a custody case (DH and uBPDbm were never married) and we still get messages like this. Lately it has been all about how DH is the one causing fights and she is SO laid back and cooperative and "over it". 

It's frustrating, because you want to point out the laundry list of reasons why it's untrue. Replying to these aren't even worth wasting your breath. They won't listen, and it will only devolve into a "back and forth" conflict.

[shatterd]

good info here   hard to get threw the flashbacks of hell  im so glad im not the only one that has ben threw this   i know all about the attempts to destroy me and my kids lives   the allagations of cheeting and all the lies about abuse and being controlling    i think its guna take a wile for the bleeeding to stop  let alone the the wounds to heal    absolute worse thing ive ben threw in life was  dealing with my BPD ex   was so bad b4 we split she woodnt let me leeve the house   she wood send me to the store to get smokes or something small 2 minutes later bamm the violent belliegernt texts  the phone calls the crazyness blew up   somedays i wonder y i even came home

[shatterd]

we i made the choice to stop fighting threw text and i put and to the stupid games   thats wen things went from realy bad to extreemly frightning   im 35 bigger guy   shes way younger  way smaller  i tell u what  i somedays im still lookin over my shoulder waitng for next episode   

[getting_better]

I can tell you it gets easier and easier to just completely ignore the crazy as you get further in the process. 

As you go through the process you may at times feel yourself sorry for your ex or like she deserves something - like when you say I wanted to discuss alimony with her.  After 23 years and especially now that you have gotten away from her for a bit, you probably realize that no matter what she "agrees" to, tomorrow it will change.   I highly recommend that you get Bill Eddy's book Splitting and read it.  Then make sure you have an attorney who is very experienced in handling high conflict cases.

Thanks, ugggh - great advice.  I do have Splitting and am taking it to heart.  Been reading so many other books hoping I could find the energy to stay (Loving Somebody With BPD, Walking on Eggshells, etc.), but now Splitting is my primary reference.  Very encouraging to see your journey and that somehow you made it through to the other side.  Hope for my marriage has turned into hope for my future sanity and serenity.

[getting_better]

Sometimes it feels like they're all the same person.

Replying to these aren't even worth wasting your breath. They won't listen, and it will only devolve into a "back and forth" conflict.

So true, Thunderstruck - I'm getting used to ending text streams with "I'm sorry you feel that way. <3 "   The hearts were working for a while, and I felt true to myself in sending them to her because I've loved her for over 25 years, but now I guess I may have to start dropping those from communications.  I think I'm getting close to the 'ugly' - the only difference this time as opposed to the last 23 years is that this time I won't back down. 

[bravhart1]

I learned a phrase on these boards I use almost everyday... .I think I learned it from dreamgirl.

"I'm sorry you feel that way, I don't feel that way about you" or to SD6 "I'm sorry mommy feels that way about bravhart, I don't feel that way about her".

It can be a pretty amazing statement, and it throws the ball right back at the bully (BPDm) and points out that they are the aggressor. It seems to shut down the weird twisty language they try to throw out there, and leaves them to go off and be mad you didn't take the bait and they don't get to play victim.

[Panda39]

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Text message from her: Cut the bull****. I'm finally immune. You are no more concerned for me than you are the next person. It's about you, and always has been. This past year has opened my eyes to who you really are. You'd be surprised the things I know about you, and it will all come out. You've already done your best to destroy me, yet here I stand... .stronger than ever and able to play your game right along with you. I'm strong enough to go head to head with you if you want that. I'll tell the truth like I always do, and finally - FINALLY - be free.

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Projection is always so interesting.  Lets play a game and flip the pronouns... .

Text message from her: Cut the bull****. You're finally immune. I'm are no more concerned for you than I am about the next person. It's about me, and always has been. This past year has opened your eyes to who I really am. I'd be surprised by the things you know about me, and it will all come out. I've already done my best to destroy you, yet here you stand... .stronger than ever and able to play my game right along with me. You're strong enough to go head to head with me if I want that. You'll tell the truth like you always do, and finally - FINALLY - be free.

[getting_better]

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Text message from her: Cut the bull****. I'm finally immune. You are no more concerned for me than you are the next person. It's about you, and always has been. This past year has opened my eyes to who you really are. You'd be surprised the things I know about you, and it will all come out. You've already done your best to destroy me, yet here I stand... .stronger than ever and able to play your game right along with you. I'm strong enough to go head to head with you if you want that. I'll tell the truth like I always do, and finally - FINALLY - be free.

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LoL!  Awesome!  Thanks, Panda!  

[Nope]

Projection is always so interesting.  Lets play a game and flip the pronouns... .

Text message from her: Cut the bull****. You're finally immune. I'm are no more concerned for you than I am about the next person. It's about me, and always has been. This past year has opened your eyes to who I really am. I'd be surprised by the things you know about me, and it will all come out. I've already done my best to destroy you, yet here you stand... .stronger than ever and able to play my game right along with me. You're strong enough to go head to head with me if I want that. You'll tell the truth like you always do, and finally - FINALLY - be free.

I absolutely love this!

[Compassion14]

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Text message from her: Cut the bull****. I'm finally immune. You are no more concerned for me than you are the next person. It's about you, and always has been. This past year has opened my eyes to who you really are. You'd be surprised the things I know about you, and it will all come out. You've already done your best to destroy me, yet here I stand... .stronger than ever and able to play your game right along with you. I'm strong enough to go head to head with you if you want that. I'll tell the truth like I always do, and finally - FINALLY - be free.

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Oooh! Panda39 - you're officially a genius! I love this... .and am going to try it with some of the more offensive communications I've received from my BPD ex! I already can see how it makes PERFECT sense!

Go you! .

C14 x

Projection is always so interesting.  Lets play a game and flip the pronouns... .

Text message from her: Cut the bull****. You're finally immune. I'm are no more concerned for you than I am about the next person. It's about me, and always has been. This past year has opened your eyes to who I really am. I'd be surprised by the things you know about me, and it will all come out. I've already done my best to destroy you, yet here you stand... .stronger than ever and able to play my game right along with me. You're strong enough to go head to head with me if I want that. You'll tell the truth like you always do, and finally - FINALLY - be free.

[GaGrl]

Panda, that was brilliant!

[ugghh]

One other thing that you may find helpful.  BPDs tend to view text messages and phone calls as an opening for them to continue to exert control over the non.  They also leave a huge opportunity to evolve into open ended, circular arguments.  Don't engage her over text or phone.  Use email as this also leaves a clear trail and puts you back in control of the flow of the conversation.

[Trog]

Do they all go to some BPD oracle to divine these theatrical/threatening prose?

Those words could come from my ex without skipping a beat.

/shudder

[getting_better]

One other thing that you may find helpful.  BPDs tend to view text messages and phone calls as an opening for them to continue to exert control over the non.  They also leave a huge opportunity to evolve into open ended, circular arguments.  Don't engage her over text or phone.  Use email as this also leaves a clear trail and puts you back in control of the flow of the conversation.

Great suggestion, ugghh.  Met with my divorce attorney this morning.  He'd read the stream of text messages, and as we reviewed the petition I'm about to file his counsel was, "If you know she's going to go into combative, high-conflict mode right out of the gates, then low-ball everything in the petition.  Custody, alimony, marital assets, the business, etc.  You've got to leave yourself some leverage."  I think he's right.  I had wanted to be extremely reasonable and 'fair' in the petition, but I know she's going to want a fight no matter what, so I'm going to baseline all requests in the divorce papers.

[letmeout]

Panda that was fabulous! I thought my BPD ex was the only one playing the constant projection card.

I had wanted to be extremely reasonable and 'fair'

IN the mind of a BPD there is no such thing as fair, they want your blood. My ex managed to find every legal loophole he could and stole all the money before we even went to court. I walked away with hardly anything, and three years later he still has some of my personal possessions that I will never see again.

I no longer want them, if it means having to be anywhere near him.

[ForeverDad]

his counsel was, "If you know she's going to go into combative, high-conflict mode right out of the gates, then low-ball everything in the petition.  Custody, alimony, marital assets, the business, etc.  You've got to leave yourself some leverage."

I had wanted to be extremely reasonable and 'fair'

In the mind of a BPD there is no such thing as fair, they want your blood. My ex managed to find every legal loophole he could... .

In my view our #1 problem heading into a separation or divorce is (1) we don't protect ourselves from false allegations and obstruction we should have expected and (1) we sabotage ourselves by being too fair, too honest, too apologizing for things we didn't even do, too reasonable (seen as weakness), too whatever.

[going places]

I refused to have a 'conversation' via text.

Texting is for "did you make it ok" or "can you pick up some milk on the way home".

Texting is NOT for any other type of conversation.

My ex, is a texter. He will not pick up the phone and call his own children.

He sends a text a couple times a month "miss you, love you".

He hasn't seen his kids for months... .hasn't talked to them, for months... .because he texts.

Texting is easy.

Texting lets him feel guilt free.

Texting you don't have to see the human; see their hurt, their sadness, their fear, their pain.

Texting allows one to continue being a terrible human being without facing the fact; others are hurting because of you.

I will never spend any time or life energy with someone who is a 'texter'.

[shatterd]

Foreverdad , i like ur posts on this, however im lerning my exBPD has become a lil diffrnt now recently. Im not real sure why tho? I think she lost some or most of her enablers. Shes had to some real realities in life again, less free money, loosing her place, loosing me and so forth. Idk totaly how this works yet with them, the calm before the storm she created has me very alert and on edge. She certanly was after blood then idk seemd to calm weird shes never realy quit before?

[Compassion14]

In my view our #1 problem heading into a separation or divorce is (1) we don't protect ourselves from false allegations and obstruction we should have expected and (1) we sabotage ourselves by being too fair, too honest, too apologizing for things we didn't even do, too reasonable (seen as weakness), too whatever.[/quote]
Absolutely spot on! We are too fair, compassionate, well meaning and, for want of a better word, naïve. Time to protect ourselves. So important.

[whirlpoollife]

Panda that was fabulous

IN the mind of a BPD there is no such thing as fair, they want your blood.

[livednlearned]

I had wanted to be extremely reasonable and 'fair' in the petition, but I know she's going to want a fight no matter what, so I'm going to baseline all requests in the divorce papers.

This is the negotiation of your life -- listen to your lawyer, it's a good strategy. Leverage is everything, so hold your cards close and prepare for several rounds of back and forth.

The important difference between how some lawyers see this strategy, and how we experience it, is that the leverage needs to be there throughout the custody order, not just the negotiation to get the order, if that makes sense.

Be sure to add as many foreshadowed consequences as possible. If one of the parties (her) does xyz, then abc consequence will apply. It will not prevent the conflict, but in the event you have to return to court, the judge will see that the consequences have already been determined. This avoids the agony of paying to go to court, only to watch the judge give your ex a second bite at the apple.

You have a lot of leverage in your situation. Best to get very clear about what that means. Take the time to think through it until it makes your brain ache. "I will do x. She will counter with y. I will offer z. She will ask for more. I will not accept any less than z. If she does not agree, we go to court. I will get a better deal from a judge than if she rejects z."

[ForeverDad]

I had wanted to be extremely reasonable and 'fair' in the petition, but I know she's going to want a fight no matter what, so I'm going to baseline all requests in the divorce papers.

This is the negotiation of your life -- listen to your lawyer, it's a good strategy. Leverage is everything, so hold your cards close and prepare for several rounds of back and forth.

The important difference between how some lawyers see this strategy, and how we experience it, is that the leverage needs to be there throughout the custody order, not just the negotiation to get the order, if that makes sense.

You don't give up the last of your leverage until she complies with the last of her required actions.  For example, the settlement or order may state that you pay her $$$ and she signs over titles, deeds or quit claim deeds to the house, vehicles, etc.  You can't immediately pay her everything since then you have no leverage left and she can thumb her nose at you.  If you have to pay some money don't pay it, or at least not all of it, until she complies with her ordered obligations.  For example if your order states you pay her $30K and she signs over a quit claim deed to the house, then you could pay her $5K or $10K to grease the wheels for her exit and then put the rest in ESCROW to be held until she signs and surrenders the quit claim deed and possession - you don't want to end up with her then refusing to move and you having to spend extra money and time to evict her.

Also, bring the paperwork with you to the court in case she surprises you and agrees, a signed document is far better than a quick promise to sign later... .a bird in the hand being better than two in the bush.  One of our members got the ex to sign documents with a purple crayon, believe it or not.  Whatever it takes, sooner is better than who knows when later.

Beware of making concessions after you get an agreement.  You may see a settlement terms as final but your ex will see it as something to be repeated modified in ex's favor by additional demands, requests, guilting, etc.  View it as another instance of boundary pushing, she will surely do it of you let her do it.  Not saying there can't be adjustments, that is to be expected, but it must be strictly limited or there will be no end to it, our reasonableness is perceived as weakness and an invitation to more concessions.

[getting_better]

Thanks, LNL and ForeverDad - very helpful counsel.  Traveling this week on business, but I plan to file the petition early next week.  Really appreciate the support and guidance.