Second coparenting counselor session today

[momtara]

So my exH and I are meeting with coparenting counselor tonight (thur). I sent her a long detailed list of things we need to work on, with examples. Also told her I think it's important, if he gives an alternate version of what happened before, to look at the documentation so every session isn't 'he said/she said.' Last time I think she gave his lies too much weight. I said that in order to set boundaries, we need to look at what happened.

She emailed me and asked if I would cc my ex on future correspondence. I thought I made it clear to her why I can't - he becomes harassing and may not even show up for the session if he is triggered beforehand.

When I first met with her individually last year, she totally seemed to 'get it.' She said she could understand why I went no contact, etc. But then when he and I met her together. suddenly she asked why I wouldn't talk to him on the phone, and other stuff. I think maybe he just came across as too normal.

In our parenting plan, I don't need his consent for every decision, but we are supposed to consult. He opposes me when he is angry, and I can't stand the harassment (calls and texts all day at work). I have suggested to her that we set stronger boundaries so I can make decisions without being intimidated after.

Anyway, not really sure how it will go. I am doing what I can to avoid court. I wish we had a better PC but I'd have to go to court to appoint a new one and then deal with ex being angry in the meantime, and he's still taking the kids. If this session doesn't go well, I may have to try to switch pc's. We had one a year ago who ended up on my side about almost everything and her term ended and I gave her up as a compromise. I don't want to negate all her work by staying with this one just as long and having her counter the other one if we ever went to court.

So I will give an update tomorrow.

[scraps66]

I'm doing this now too and feel... .it sucks.  What you may be seeing, as I am, the counselor is doing a pure coparent session where it's all about the two of you working things out.  That is about the limits of the scope of coparent counseling.

I am with you about the looking at past examples.  Our counselor has this things about the, "past pattern of behavior v. the new pattern of behavior."  Right. There is no new pattern of behavior because the things that really need to be addressed, other side's mental illness and how it prevents coparenting, falls well outside the scope of coparent counseling.

It's a real pain to go through as you get the feeling like it's shoveling sand against the tide.  Too much work and aggravation for the results. 

Plus, there is no method of therapy where a BP can be in a room with the target and have a good outcome.  That is just a very fertile environment for BS... .blameshifting. 

[momtara]

Glad to hear from someone else doing this. I think I just needed support. These sessions make me nervous even though I'm the one with the most custody and such.

Let me know how it goes for you. I *did* have a counselor last year who "got it," but I gave her up to appease ex - didn't realize how rare and valuable she was. I figured everyone would see right through him.

I will update - there aren't many people who understand what this is like. I have to make decisions about camp, setting up some doctors' appointments, etc., and don't want him opposing them for no reason, so hoping to get to those tonight.

[livednlearned]

Your PC does not want to be triangulated, that's why she doesn't want you to write her emails without cc'ing your ex.

It sounds to me like she is trying to apply low-conflict methods to your situation, and that can backfire.

What is your plan for Thursday night, what you want to discuss and resolutions, etc.

[momtara]

What do you mean low-conflict?

Anyway, she seemed to get it more this time. It took a lot of work (and $$$) over the last few months to show her what was really going on. My ex, in today's session, said over and over that our doctors are refusing to call him back, and that by law, I am supposed to answer all of his medical questions.    He has used this to harass me. However, our PC had talked to the doctor, and doc told her that she keeps calling ex and he won't return calls. So PC knew ex was full of poopy. He just wants to engage me with repeated calls. We set a boundary that we exchange a few emails regarding each doc visit and that's it. Ex kept insisting, "But by law, Momtara has to answer all my questions!"

My goals were to get ex's approval for a few things -- my choice of summer camp, making a specialist appointment for my son, and some boundaries about ex repeatedly texting, calling, and emailing when doctors' appointments trigger him. I think I achieved all of that. (At the low low price of $180 per hour and the session was two hours. ;(  Sole decision making would be cheaper, and I hinted as much to ex.

He pressed for wanting to pull kids out of school to take them to docs' appointments for second opinions. I know that legally he can get a second opinion, but that inteferes with my parenting time and I'm not sure I want to allow that boundary. PC said I'd have to release them from school if ex wants to take them on school time.

Her recs are not binding, but I could take them to court, so I think ex will heed them. Tonight was productive except for my pocketbook.

I wish I could sweet talk him into staying out of the medical stuff, being that it only triggers him. But it's a loss of power for him if he's not involved, so he seems to be hanging on. He admitted during the session to canceling appointments I made. She didn't say anything about that, but I said I found it offensive.

I am still concerned about his mental health but until he does something overt, kind of have to keep monitoring the situation. I think letting ex's therapists in on what's going on would be helpful for both of us, but that's something I'll have to wait on, until our PC's term is up in Nov and I can try to get her to recommend that we give the next PC (or her) those powers.

[bravhart1]

Momtara,

Would it be possible for the prior therapist that "got it" speak to the new therapist? It may be a way to short cut the time it might take for this new therapist to see the real picture.

We were getting a lot of requests for different therapists by BPDm once they figured her out, when we finally made it an order that all therapists, present and past may speak to each other the carousel of therapists stopped, there was no point to starting over. Now she just tries to stay away from them all together .

[momtara]

I showed her all the last therapist's paperwork and recommendations, so I think that was clear. I definitely could ask her to talk to her, though. THat is a really good suggestion. Thanks!

I still think she gives in to ex too much, and that worries me. Even a small surrender to satisfy him could cause a problem for me and the kids. This time, she largely sided with me on everything, but I could still see her saying ok to a few things in the session that could cause problems. The last one was fine keeping him out of the picture on certain things because of his mental illness. I know that I want some control too, but I think I have good reasons - he imagines things.

[david]

If ex wants a second opinion then he can do that on his custodial time. I don't see why that would be a problem. Obviously he is trying to engage with you and that is why he is doing the things he is doing.

If he takes them for a second opinion you don't even need to be there. The only thing you need to do is find out where he is taking them and call the practice to let them know that ex is taking them there for a second opinion. Doctors don't take different positions unless there is overwhelming reason to do so. That puts them in a potential legal problem.

Document everything that was discussed in the meetings. I think a good goal would be to get sole parenting decision making because of ex's continual conflict. Having overwhelming documentation of that over a period of time will be very helpful in court if you ever decide to go in that direction.

If ex sends an email asking you about something and you answered it thoroughly then you don't need to reply again. SAT most all I do is repeat what I already said and end it there.

The money issue is the thing that bothers me the most. Spending money on all these "experts" and sidestepping the real issue irks me. We went through co parent counseling a few months back. After about 5  meetings the counselor realized ex was the problem and offered to end the meetings even though they were court ordered until June. I questioned him about that and he said he would write a letter to the courts explaining why he ended the meetings.

[momtara]

Wow, David. That is spot on. I wish our PC saw through it that way.  

Ex claims that he wants to get a 2nd opinion at a special clinic and it's only during school hours. PC wrote in her followup that "Should one of the parties decide to take their children to another medical specialist for a second opinion ... . The party that would like to make such an appointment will have to first explain to the other party why he/she thinks that this second opinion is necessary, give the detailed information about this specialist (name, specialty, phone #, address, etc.). That party will take into consideration their mutual availability and keep those in mind when making an appointment. If this appointment is scheduled when school is in session, children need to be released from the school by [MOMTARA]."

I am assuming that she means that if such a thing occurs, I would have to release them in order for them to be able to go, not that I automatically have to give in if such a thing happens. Am I wrong? If she is saying I would have to release them every time, then I do not agree. But I am thinking she means that I *would* have to release them rather than ex just taking them at will. I like that, if it's true.

I have managed to avoid paying her the retainer fee for two sessions, but I can't duck it anymore. I am going to tell her I would like her to recommend that she be able to check in with our doctors.

[livednlearned]

I still think she gives in to ex too much, and that worries me. Even a small surrender to satisfy him could cause a problem for me and the kids. This time, she largely sided with me on everything, but I could still see her saying ok to a few things in the session that could cause problems. The last one was fine keeping him out of the picture on certain things because of his mental illness. I know that I want some control too, but I think I have good reasons - he imagines things.

I'm confused. You don't want to assert boundaries because it might trigger him. You want PC to assert boundaries.

When the PC doesn't assert boundaries, you feel that will cause problems, and might trigger him.

?

[momtara]

Yes, best scenario is that she asserts boundaries.

Both statements suggest that - am I wrong?

[livednlearned]

Yes, best scenario is that she asserts boundaries.

Both statements suggest that - am I wrong?

You don't want to assert boundaries.

You want her to assert them.

When she doesn't assert them, that's a problem.



It's a double standard.

[momtara]

Well, I'm not going to agree with *every* decision she makes, but certainly I want her to assert boundaries when necessary. Most of what she said in the email she sent, I agreed with.

[livednlearned]

I still think she gives in to ex too much, and that worries me. Even a small surrender to satisfy him could cause a problem for me and the kids.

This is you describing you 

[momtara]

Good point! Well, I'm learning.

For $180 an hour she shouldn't be bullied and manipulated and scared of him.  At least not as much as I am!

[livednlearned]

Good point! Well, I'm learning.

For $180 an hour she shouldn't be bullied and manipulated and scared of him.  At least not as much as I am!

She may have a hard time knowing how to best support you. If you are afraid of setting boundaries because it triggers him, then she may think that siding with him is helping you.

There are no short cuts with boundaries. They are either consistent, or they are not. When we try to negotiate boundaries, it tells the boundary buster that everything is negotiable. This can feel overly abusive with someone who does not have better skills, like your BPD ex.

[ForeverDad]

I recall in previous posts by myself and others that a less experienced mediator (or professional such as in your situation a parenting coordinator) could see that one person is trying to be reasonable and the other person is intractable and won't budge and conclude it would be easier to get the reasonable person to give in since the other isn't budging an inch.

I'm not saying that's the case here, but the new PC may not be as insightful as the prior PC, not fully seeing the boundary pushing/violations for what they are.  Generally we got ourselves into our problems for various reasons but we compounded them by trying to be reasonable and accommodating with a person who was unreasonable and not really negotiating.  Eventually though we figured out that negotiation and accommodation works only when both parties are cooperating.  That wasn't happening and so that's why boundaries are so crucially important.  As has been said here, boundaries about about us and us enforcing what we do and allow since we can't have much influence on the other person.

So does the PC understand that, or is the PC coming to that realization?

[momtara]

She's getting it, because she now sees that ex is a liar. But that still doesn't mean she's going to be as strong or clever as she could be. That said, this session was an improvement over last time. I got most of what I wanted.

[bravhart1]

That certainly strikes a chord with me!

Our last parent coordinator was unsuccessful getting BPDm to cooperate so she was constantly trying to get us to back down as the more reasonable party. But unfortunately it only succeeded in getting BPDm to bully both my DH and PC in sessions until they were both driven up a tree with frustration then PC quit as she was losing her composure more often than not.

It's very important that it gets pointed put early and often that being the reasonable party should not mean that you have to acquiesce to a unreasonable person. Especially in a therapeutic environment.

[david]

My interpretation of what you wrote about the counselor decision is you were given final say as to whether or not ex can get the second opinion. Perhaps the counselor believes you are the reasonable parent and it is up to you to make boundaries for your ex. If ex has a good reason for a second opinion then let it happen. If he just thinks, feels, etc. then you can and should say no.  Remember, counselors are temporary so in the long run it is up to you to establish boundaries. Establishing the boundary in front of the counselor gives you the support and witness for courts. The more you practice it (and stick to your boundary) the easier it becomes. You are the one that changes the dynamics and ex has to learn how to adapt. He may need time (lots of it) to learn new ways. In the meantime he will do what works for him. It took my ex years (around three) to adapt to my boundaries and she still tests them from time to time. I stay firm. If I didn't I believe we would be at the same place we were years ago. That wasn't good for our boys or me.

At our co parent counseling meetings I questioned ex's statements to get an understanding (I already knew there wasn't a good reason but I figured I would let the counselor see it) Ex was fighting me with her emotions and bringing up things from the past. I styed focused on the present and what I thought was best for the kids. I let the personal attacks for the most part but would occasionally say they were not true.

I viewed the counselor as someone court ordered that would not fix or resolve anything. The counselor did resolve one or two things at the meetings but did not "fix" the underlying cause of tension from ex. That was not his job. That was ex's responsibility. I do not expect ex to ever address that. That sucks but it is what it is.

[momtara]

"being the reasonable party should not mean that you have to acquiesce to a unreasonable person."

Well said!

And thanks, David, for your insight and examples.

Ex found a way to get back at me today (he always does) but in the scheme of things it was minor. I always worry that if I close off all avenues for him to harass me, then he will do something even worse. I know that sounds lame, but it's kinda true. He sent a nasty email about something, but in the scheme of things it's not a big deal. I let it go.

I have not addressed the biggest deal, that he is supposed to provide an annual letter about still being in counseling with both of his counselors, and has not. But we never came up with an exact date for him to do it. I didn't bring it up last time because if he refuses to provide it, then I have to figure out whether to rush to court to try to get supervised visitation until he does, or something else. I am kind of watching him to see if his behavior gets worse. I do want to address the lack of a letter at our next session or via email if he doesn't comply. Obviously if he gets threatening I will have to address it sooner.

[david]

I used to worry about what ex would do to our kids if I made a boundary with her. My T talked to me about it and I realized that if I didn't change and make good boundaries then things would stay the same. It was scary at first but things slowly got better. The things I feared never materialized. Yes, she did try things but nowhere near my fears. When she did do something I was very conscious not to let her see any reaction from me. That, I believe, was what made her new actions end quickly. She was not rewarded for her behavior by me. Remember these are dysfunctional relationships.

About the counseling. I assume it is court ordered. I would first nail down the time and have it in writing. I would think the longest time would be 365 days from the day the order was made official. That can be done at the counseling meeting. If you have to go to court you could probably do that without an atty. You would need some direction from an atty on how to do it or some support group. There are many support groups that can walk you through the steps needed to do something pro se. You also need to have a plan for the judge as to what you think is right consequence and always frame it in the children's best interest. I've done a few things pro se and it really isn't as difficult as I thought especially since I had a reasonable request.

[momtara]

I was stupid and never got him to agree to court ordered therapy. our agreement says "the expectation is that he stays in therapy." But we also said he has to present a letter from his doctorS saying he is still under their care and following their treatment recommendations. I figured I could go to court for a change in circumstance if he only presents a letter from one doc or none. Of course, I partly put the burden on myself. Dumb. So far though nothing terrible has happened, and I know I couldn't technically make him stay on medicine. I do think it's important that he stay in counseling every other week like he used to be, and I will keep watching his behavior. Once this PC's term runs out I want to revise the order for a new one and say she can contact our counselors to make sure we're still in therapy.