I need advice and support please

[SueLee]

My 23 year old daughter recently informed me that she was diagnosed with BPD and they are looking into a second/additional diagnosis. She is the oldest of three children. She is highly intelligent and in grad school. She successfully completed her undergrad a year early with a 4.0 she unexpectedly had a baby two years ago.

I have known something was wrong since late into her first grade year of school. She has always had issues maintaining friendships and keeping friends close. Relationships with men have almost always been disastrous. She was a skillful and successful liar at an early age, we bought into it and trusted her for quite some time. She began cutting herself and was emotional roller coaster through most of high school. Ran away once, and was located before she made it to the train station.

She is always complaining about money. And about what we don't do rather than seeing we do as much as we can and have supported her throughout her life. She lies to people and tells them things that aren't true about her childhood. She will lie to my face claiming things happened and I will try to defend myself to be told. Am "out of it" or "delusional" she has sought out therapy but has always stopped because they aren't qualified or they are out of it... .aka they don't buy into the lies.

Recently she found a therapist/counselor she likes. (I forgot to mention she double majored physiology and social work) She also has a recent boyfriend. He is being l

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

Hi SueLee,

Glad to have you here looking for support.  Having an adult child with BPD is heartbreaking and we can feel so powerless to do much of anything to help them make positive changes.  Do you feel that way?

It's good to know your daughter is in therapy and has received a diagnoses. How do you feel about this?

The relationship dynamic you describe with your daughter is common... .our BPD kids experience and process things differently than reality would seem to suggest.  This is very frustrating for us because we don't seem to know how to handle it.  As you discovered defending ourselves doesn't seem to work and can even make things worse in our relationship with our kids.

Have you done much reading about BPD up to now?  The Lessons to the right of the page is a good place to begin to educate yourself about the disorder and begin to learn what you can do.-------->

I look forward to learning more about you, your daughter, your family and how I can support you in your quest to improve your relationship and find some peace in your life.

lbjnltx

[SueLee]

Hi! Thank you for the welcome. I accidentally posted before I finished. On my phone, all thumbs. And I tried to edit or add to it, and apparently it didn't work.

First to answer, yes, it does make me feel that way. And I

Glad she is getting help, and happy for the diagnosis. But frustrated that she is claiming abuse as a child as the cause of her issues. It makes me so sad. I am uncertain if her therapist or boyfriend or maybe both are suggesting she distance us? No phone calls. She doesn't accept ours. Only texts when she wants something. Doesn't reply to mine. Very rare FaceTime with our grandchild now.

Cancelled coming to a planned family event. Cancelled on Easter at the last minute. The last time we were permitted to have our grandchild the return went great then 40 minutes later a text message of lies and accusations. I don't know what to do.

[lbjnltx]

Thanks for coming back so soon SueLee and sorry about the technology glitch... .

As we have already mentioned their reality can be very different from our reality.  They experience things very intensely and it is all filtered through their emotions, logic and reason have little affect on their views.  It can help you to understand how she feels she was abused if you read through this information:  https://bpdfamily.com/parenting/01.htm

Be sure to read through the added link at the bottom of that page... .this is where you can begin to connect with your daughter on a level you both understand and can build from.

lbj

[SueLee]

lbs,

Thank you for your support and interest. And for the articles and advice. I read through the link and the attached threads. I saw my own situation in some of the posts. We have three children, our BPD23 being the oldest. She is very intelligent, loves to debate and win arguments. Often just looks for an opportunity to pick a fight. We have no issues or signs of problems in the other two. They in fact are disturbed and stressed by the things she claims and accusations she makes. Our only son is 3 years younger than her, we are realizing e was a victim to many mind games and abuse from her that we didn't know about at he time. She is so smart and so cunning, she can manipulate and get what she wants quite easily. We didn't physically or mentally abuse our children. I can be certain and sure of my claims to that. I have always been curious, even before her diagnosis, if some events in her life triggered her issues. Long before diagnosis I knew something was wrong but getting her to cooperate and get help was impossible. When she was in first grade we suffered 7 deaths in 9 months time. Very upsetting, stressful and painful time in all our lives. She had to quit dance because she was afraid somebody would die while she was there. We sold our house and moved across town and she cried for weeks about the loss of her home and wanted us to buy it back. Prior to this change, she didn't lie and manipulate. She taught herself to read at age 4 and is so smart it is unreal. We have always loved and supported her and went out of our way for her. Our extended family has as well. She was a very wanted and loved child. Her behavior has escalated over the years but has also subsided at times. After the birth of her child she showed great improvements and seemed to really come around. Then I realized she was faking illnesses with her child, lying about ER visits, it even went so far as she had us convinced a major surgery was needed and she needed an out I state second oppinion. We purchased insurance for our grandchild and took them to the out of state referral. Three days of greuling tests showed there was nothing wrong! Our daughter was furious and wanted the surgery and said she couldn't raise a child with this condition. She eventually came around. But does continue to lie about issues with our grandchild. It is such a roller coaster and her oppinions and arguements change like the weather to the point my head is swimming with so many incidents and situations that I can hardly concentrate on posting.

[lbjnltx]

That is disheartening to hear about your grandchild.  Another heavy layer of concern comes in when there are grandchildren's well being to consider. 

Do you equate the losses your family experienced in combination with her temperament to be possibly causes for your daughter's development of BPD traits?  It's hard to wrap our heads around this sometimes.  As a child, do you think your daughter met the criteria for Oppositional Defiant Disorder?  Mine definitely did and it was her first diagnoses at age 11.

Where would you like to focus your energy right now SueLee?  On communication skills?

lbj

[SueLee]

Yes, I think/believe that those events changed her. That is the furthest back I can trace her behavior changes.

I have mentioned this to her on several occasions and she thinks it is absurd. Claiming abuse as a child is more her idea of reasonable. My sister-in-law thinks heredity is a bigger option as she suspects my brother has it. I do too. And my moms oldest sister, now deceased, definitely could have had this. I can't even bring myself to suggest this theory. Yes, she scares me. I fear and dread the possibility of her going off on me.

Well, I am currently trying to deal with her creating this distance. She never has been done this before. The lack if communication, is creating so much stress for me. And she she is so bold to text me and expect an immediate response to her demands, is so upsetting.

Do you suggest I continue to respond to her? Or wait awhile... .or ignore completely? Does this convey what I am trying to get through right now? Thanks!

[lbjnltx]

Yes, SueLee... .I get the picture here of what you are dealing with.

Learning how to communicate with her so that she feels heard and understood can lower her emotional temperature at least.  Once she begins to feel heard and understood she may be able to have a reasonable conversation with you. 

Learning how to do this is vital to moving from where you are to where you want to be.

Validation is the communication skill that I am talking about.  Click on this link to take you to some info on validation and then come back and we can help you work through how to validate something specifically... .ok?

Here is the link-----> Communicating with Validation

lbj

[SueLee]

I can see through reading that, where there have been times we have not validated her. Mainly with saying, you know that isn't true, and that's not what I meant or not what I said... .however we have learned from reactions and the consequences that resulted from that. We walk on eggshells.

Our most current situation isn't even due to anything like that, as we haven't even been around her or talked to her to set her off. Which is why I suspect either the new boyfriend, (who appears very controlling) or her counselor is suggesting to distance herself from us. I would think counselors and therapists would realize patients lie and aren't always up front about their family.

Our twelve year old makes a valid point. She said I don't understand why it is acceptable for her to lie and make up things about us, and treat us like dirt, but we have to agree with everything she says and does. Everything we say and do as functioning people is wrong and we have to change and she can keep on telling lies and making us sad. How so that fair mom?

[lbjnltx]

Nothing about this disorder is fair... .so kudos to your 12 year old for recognizing that.

The distinction here is not that we agree with what they said or what they did... .it is the recognition of their feelings... .we don't validate the invalid (lies) or even their perception of reality, only how they feel about it.

Does that make sense?

[SueLee]

Yes it makes sense. But at the same time, it is so hard. She will try to get us going and provoke arguments. If we don't argue or get sucked into it, she will keep it going and drag it though the mud. I have gotten to where I can see it coming, I know when to be on high alert before it begins. After a visit from her, I generally end up with a cluster headache after a visit from her.

Is this typical behavior of a BPD, she expects us to be financially responsible for her. Se is nearing 24 and we pay for her cell phone, car insurance, car repairs, personal items, the baby diapers and clothing. She asks for more all the time. Complains about not having enough money. She expects me to do her laundry, will brig entire car loads home. Trunk and all spare space in the interior. She expects me to drive two hours and clean her house, and trashes it soon after I clean it.

Makes poor decision with friends, resulting in being used and disappointed.

Hostile attitude and negative about situations where she may have been receptive previously.

Why do you think she is not texting, calling or communicating with us? It was just sudden. I know her boyfriend does try to call the shots and tell her what she can and can't do. He thinks he can make decisions regarding her child as well. I have a gut feeling he is telling her to distance herself, but I have no proof. How do you suggest I handle responding? Should I make her wait or not reply at all for awhile or do my normal respond immediately?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

Yes... .it does sound like typically BPD behaviors and similar to what most of us have experienced on many levels SueLee.  Learning to validate and not engage in circular arguments, set boundaries and keep the problem solving off your plate and on hers is where the answers lie.  It's not easy and it takes time to learn and put into consistent practice all of these skills.

I can't know the why of her decision to cut off contact.  I can only suggest that you learn how to respond to her before your next communication to keep open contact going.  When  you can validate her feelings and not engage in arguing with her you may want to just send her a text and say something like "Just checking to see how you guys are doing, haven't heard from you for a while" and see what happens.

Spend some time reading and absorbing the Tools and Lessons, we will be here to help answer any questions you might have about them.

lbj

[SueLee]

I haven't participated in an "argument" with her in two weeks. If you can call it that. I was defending myself against her rude and inappropriate accusations. And I stopped mid way through it and said I am sorry you feel we didn't provide adequate care for (granddaughter) however I assure you she was fed, bathed, loved and showered in attention. We try our hardest to do what is best for both if you. I haven't engaged in any arguments with her since. She has texted me 3 times all if which involved me doing her a favor of some sort. I have texted her to tell her little things regarding her sisters pitching practice going well, or our little nephew looking a picture and saying wow I sure do miss (DD) and she just doesn't respond. My niece texted her and no response either. And she doesn't answer her phone. Every single night at 9:00 pm I text: I love and miss you both! With two hearts.

[livednlearned]

Hi SueLee,

I wanted to join lbjnltx in welcoming you to the parenting board. I think it's a very positive sign, too, that your D confided in you about the diagnosis. Does it feel that it's lot to take in at once? Sometimes it feels like a relief when you realize there really was something going on all these years, and also some sadness as you realize your child has a mental illness. We're here for you  

I Don't Have to Make It All Better by the Lundstroms is an excellent starting point filled with good examples to help you learn about validation. I wish I found this book a long time ago! It takes validation to a whole other level because you give your D a chance to solve her own problems. It's been hard for me to have good boundaries when I see my son struggle, even when he is being difficult. I sometimes think of specific sentences as actual tools I am going to use for different situations.

And boundaries are another skill. Sometimes it helps to talk in advance with your D about points of pain. "When we have situation abc, then often xyz happens. Let's talk together about how we will work through situation abc next time so that we have some ground rules that work for you, and for me."

I do this when my son gets hurt. In the past, he would inevitably get angry at me, no matter how I responded. It was a guaranteed losing scenario for me. We decided that I would ask him how he wanted me to respond. We've been doing that for a few years now, and he has started to just tell me. "I want to be alone right now." Or he'll say, "I slammed my finger in the door and I know it's going to be ok, right now it hurts, can you look at it to see if it needs a band aid." These sound like such small things! For us, it's a huge shift and I'm grateful that we figured out during peacetime how we were going to interact during conflict. It doesn't work for all things, and there are times we're both tired and nothing seems to work.

Also, about the finances. This is a good place to practice boundaries. Really read about boundaries first and come up with a plan that you know you can stand behind. If you are committed to helping her, then slowly shift more and more responsibility to her. My son has an account, and over the past couple of years, he is now in charge of how he handles that money. For the first time ever, he handled a situation around money that I found truly fascinating. Instead of fighting with me, I saw the battle happen between two competing desires of his own, and I got bear witness from the sidelines without being the target. It takes time, and you have to be consistent, and it's best if your child is somehow involved in figuring out what the ground rules are. When it starts to come together, it's truly a thing of wonder  

[lbjnltx]

Learning a new way of communication takes time and lots of effort.  There are subtle differences between being invalidating, validating and validating the invalid.  They may seem small and insignificant to us and to a person w/BPD who is hypersensitive to any form of communication (verbal and non verbal) these differences feel huge.  Your daughter has a very high need for validation... .people with BPD just do.

I haven't participated in an "argument" with her in two weeks. If you can call it that. I was defending myself against her rude and inappropriate accusations. And I stopped mid way through it and said I am sorry you feel we didn't provide adequate care for (granddaughter) however I assure you she was fed, bathed, loved and showered in attention. We try our hardest to do what is best for both if you.

I can see that you recognized what she believes is a problem.  Being careful here is wise so as to no  validate the invalid.  Validating the feelings may have looked more like "Feeling that your child wasn't properly cared for must be upsetting, it would upset me too." or "Being upset when you think granddaughter's needs weren't being met is understandable, any parent would feel that way."

Can you see the difference here?

I haven't engaged in any arguments with her since. She has texted me 3 times all if which involved me doing her a favor of some sort. I have texted her to tell her little things regarding her sisters pitching practice going well, or our little nephew looking a picture and saying wow I sure do miss (DD) and she just doesn't respond. My niece texted her and no response either. And she doesn't answer her phone. Every single night at 9:00 pm I text: I love and miss you both! With two hearts.

 

That's good communication SueLee, keep doing it and the next time she responds to you or contacts you having this improved style of communication may help keep the communication going or at least less destructive to your relationship.

lbj

[SueLee]

Thank you livednlearned for welcoming me and the advice. I appreciate it all. Th diagnosis didn't shock me. I knew there was something wrong. However it saddens me. I really try to not cross my D. When she slung the accusations regarding care it was so absurd and hard to even acknowledge her. I do in home daycare and have for 30 years. I take excellent care of children and go above and beyond to meet their needs. And my D knows that and is well aware her daughter is taken care of exceptionally. But still has to fabricate false accusations and I guess that is a big part of this I don't get. Why target and assault people with lies and make everyone uncomfortable? She is overall highly functional, as she has graduated from a university with a double major/double minor in did it in 3 yrs rather than two, but I think attending school is safe to her, as she could get a great job now and not worry about money, but chose grad school and working at a part time campus job. She has had wonderful boyfriends that she has literally driven away. Her current one is so controlling and I don't see him going anywhere. Talks of adopting the grandchild and not allowing her to have contact with her bio grandparents on dad's side. They have been dating four months. Yikes. Normally when she dates, her BPD settles down and symptoms are more subtle. But he last four months have been horrible. Not sure why it is so intense and actually at an all time bad.

[SueLee]

Oh I wanted to add, this is how I speak to her and handle her all the time and have for a long time. I can relate to and know I am guilty of not always tip toeing around the truth and validating her remarks and lies. It is not always easy to accomadate her. I admit it. But I try to as much as I can. The family does too, but it isn't easy for people to sit back and watch somebody ridicule others.

Here is an example of a time family snapped. We were at a family birthday party and somebody asked our S if he did laundry at college. He said sometimes, if I don't make it home I have no choice. Our D spoke up and said he was a liar and never did his own laundry. (Not true, he was doing it about the 1/2 the time himself) my mom said D, just how many loads do you do of your own? D announced she did 100% of her and her daughters laundry. (Which is a complete lie in 4.5 yrs Of college she did 1 load herself) my mom said D you know that isn't true. And D tore into her grandma and another family member said so you brought no laundry home this time? And she said no!

I didn't say anything. However she had brought home 9 loads of laundry. Everyone knows she lies and it is hard for them to ignore it. Or validate it. I understand. I don't know how to ask people to accept such behavior.

[Rapt Reader]

Hello, SueLee; I'd like to join lbjnltx & livednlearned in welcoming you to this site  

Wow, handling behavior like that is really difficult... .Hearing your daughter say something so adamantly and having it be wrong, can be very frustrating and aggravating! There are lots of reasons that she may be doing that--bigger reasons than just for the sake of lying, itself.

I found that the times my adult (38) son, who was diagnosed with BPD in April of 2013, lied to us, the reasons could have been that he really believed what he was saying was true (he wanted it to be true so much, he just believed it was). Or maybe the truth was so embarrassing or shameful-feeling for him, his mind "changed" it to something less painful for him to admit. It was hard sometimes for him to admit something and laugh it off (like someone without BPD might do), and instead it became a mission for him to make himself look and feel better by changing the reality to something less painful for him. I doubt he ever really saw these things as "lies"; he was trying as hard as he could to feel better about himself and look better to everyone else... .

Have you read any books about BPD, to try to understand your daughter's symptoms and behaviors better? "Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder" by Valerie Porr (we have a book review for it here:

Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder) has become my go-to BPD "Bible". It has a great index in the back where I can find what I'm looking for when I have a question, and is dog-eared and coffee-stained from all of my frantic reading   I truly recommend that book; it really has given me a good foundation--along with all of the links to the right-hand side of this page, and all of the information available on this site.

Not only did that book help me learn how to deal with my BPD son, but it has helped me with all of my relationships--BPD loved ones, and non-BPD loved ones, alike

[SueLee]

Thank you Emertitus,

I do think she lies to make herself feel and look better. She will say things she did that I actually did or claim she bought things that somebody else bought. She will demand food and carry on about people not accomadating her vegetarian choice she only weighs 95 lbs and is 5 ft tall. And has low blood sugar, I cringe when she comes to visit trying to fill her up and keep her full. I have said I am not used to making vegetarian meals, and making a totally different meal for her isn't easy either. I ask for suggestions. Well her suggestion is always for us to eat the way she eats! Problem solved. For her daughters birthday I did subs and had three choices of meat and three of cheese and tons of veggie toppings. She flipped out on me. I also had a fruit and veggie tray. She said why would there be meat at all? They can eat how I eat or not eat! And she brought up last years party where I served both regular lasagna and Alfredo veggie and said how mad she was over that as well. I just told her she could decide and change the menu. It was dropped and the subs were served. After the party she asked to take home sub fixings including meat... .it is always something

[SueLee]

Good morning all!

I was discussing some of the new information about BPD with my mom last night and doing some GAD research as well, (not diagnosed but  is sure ae has that) anyway, my mom had an interesting theory. She thinks D is creating the distance and like at the party, not talking to or introducing the bf to anyone, in an effort to disguise her lies. Almost all boyfriends leave her bc of all her lies and getting tired of dealing with the drama. Being around family increases the confrontation of lies. Somebody, even innocently will eventually say something that contradicts things she has told him

She could be on to something.

Upon our first meeting with her boyfriend, I was verbally attacked over her last years income tax return, she claimed that I had taken her info and had my accountant file them and she was "ripped" off and wanted to know if we claimed her. She was certain that I didn't give proper info. I said first off I don't even recall turning in your info and if I did I would have just given what you gave me. She just yelled at me and said so you are admitting you failed to tell him I have a child? I said I guess... .didn't you provide her social security #... .

It was so terrible.

Well upon turning our stuff into my tax man I asked him if my daughter claimed her daughter last year? He looked and said I am sorry but I haven't filed for her in two years.

So I called her and said that I just spoke with the tax man and blah blah... .she said oh ok... .I must have used turbo tax.

Just as casual as can be.

I said wellhe offered to go over them and file an amendment for her. She said oh ok. And I haven't heard anything more on it. No oh gosh I was sure you took them. I am sorry I screamed at you.

Nope.

However if you say one thing to upset her you owe her several sincere apologies... .

Is this typical?

[lbjnltx]

However if you say one thing to upset her you owe her several sincere apologies... .

Is this typical?

Yes

People who suffer from BPD have such intense emotions and strong sense of shame that they usually do not self examine, it can actually be dangerous for some of  them to.  With proper therapy they can gain the skills necessary to cope with their feelings of shame and begin to do the hard work of learning how to look at themselves and their behaviors objectively. The skill of wisemind can be very helpful for self examination.  It is also very helpful for us as parents.

Is learning about wisemind something you would be interested in?

lbj

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[SueLee]

lbj

Yes I would be interested in anything that might help. I worry about her all the time. And although she is being evasive right now, I know she must be missing us. Especially our 12 year old. And if nothing more the dogs. Although typically she gets homesick for us. And her grandparents are in horrible health and I worry something will he happen and she will have not seen them in a long time and it will really traumatized her. And our 13 year old dog is moving slower every day. I just know these are things that will devastate her and she will regret neglecting keeping contact once it is too late. But as I am sure you can relate, I am mulling over ideas of how to suggest she contact her grandparents etc... . I find it all to be exhausting.

Typing out and brining up examples has my mind swimming. Five summers ago she had moved out of the dorms and into a shared upstairs apartment. The lease was up prior to being able I resume life in the dorm. She had to move home. She called and asked if we could haul stuff home for her bc her car couldn't house it all. Her dad and brother were out of state for a baseball tournament and so our youngest and I went down. We get there and she is out front washing a car with a friend. She says get started I will be up. Not one thing packed. Nothing. We begins packing and packing and then loading... .we keep looking out and she is still washing the car. (Most people would say I would demand she get up there) however I knew it would result in an explosion so we kept working. Next thing she is gone. We fill my vehicle completely full. I mean a a hazard to be a passenger full. We continue to pack the remains. And try to organize it. She comes back and is furious it wouldn't all fit. But go ahead leave I will deal with it.

Next day. Her dad was home and she calls crying that her mom didn't complete the move and left her with a huge mess and she has work in a few hours... .he (who she bad mouths the most) says we are on our way. The youngest and I cry. It was a super hot old house with steep stairs. We don't want to return. We worked 12 hrs the day before and was on the road four. We send the young one to a friends and DH and I head out. We load and move the rest out and clean the apartment.

Your typical person would never believe that story.

[lbjnltx]

That's true SueLee... .a typical person would not believe that a daughter would feel completely justified in behaving that way. We aren't typical are we?  Our kids are not typical.  This is our reality.  We, as parents to children/adult children with this disorder, must rise to and most often above the challenges that the typical parent faces.  It is what it is.

In retrospect what would you have done differently? What are the pros and cons of your choice to stay and do all the work for her?  How did you feel in that moment and how do you feel about it now?

[SueLee]

I am not really sure what I would have done differently. I keep replaying it in my mind and I know if I had given her an ultimatum to get up there and help or we were leaving, she would have eventually helped but made it so unbearable I would have regretted that decision. I honestly don't think she was capable of packing and organizing her things at that time in her life. I know if she called today, we would all go pitch in and help.

How do I feel now... .

Well, after speaking to to folks, I feel relieved that this is normal and typical for a BPD person. I know I am not imagining things and her demands and unreasonable approach is real. It still frustrates me and upsets me. I always feel used by her.

That same summer, she fabricated an elaborate story about babysitting I apologize, posting from my phone and I hit post.

She is lying to her boyfriend about us. And he not only buys into it but encourages it.

A few months ago I hosted her daughters birthday party and the came. My daughter didn't introduce him to anyone and didn't speak to anyone. Sat with her back to everyone. Prior to the party she raised a huge stink over the party plans in general. However, I had followed her original instructions and was hurt and confused by her attack. Since our grandchild's birth she had been overall easier to deal with. With the exception of faking illness with our grandchild and faking ER visits.

But now, she is shutting us out. She didn't come home for a family affair she had said she would and wouldn't allow our grandchild to come home. She said she will see you all at Easter. Good Friday came and she two children. The story went on the whole summer, and although I can generally catch onto her lies, I swallowed this one. Every detail. Taking them swimming, to the park, how much she loved them, how she took them shopping and to the park, what she fed them, etc... .

After moving in with the baby daddy to our granddaughter the story continued about how much they loved her house. And about how one woke up to the boyfriend there and was scared.

Never doubted the story. We were all talking about something and I commented on how long has it been since you saw so & so... .the boyfriend said who? And my daughter shot me a look and changed the subject.

I know now the children never existed.

[lbjnltx]

I am not really sure what I would have done differently. I keep replaying it in my mind and I know if I had given her an ultimatum to get up there and help or we were leaving, she would have eventually helped but made it so unbearable I would have regretted that decision. I honestly don't think she was capable of packing and organizing her things at that time in her life. I know if she called today, we would all go pitch in and help.

Taking the middle path... .between doing it all for them and giving an ultimatum might look something like this:

We are here to help you organize and pack.  When you are ready to get started give us a call, we are going to go run some errands and will head back here as soon as we hear from you.

One of the things we struggle with as parents is distress tolerance... .the ability to allow our kids to feel the pain of their choices and also being willing to go through the fallout when we say "no".

When we have suffered through so much already we try to avoid more drama and abuse... .we get stuck in a cycle of rescuing our kids, solving their problems for them or ignoring abusive behaviors.  It will only get worse in the long run when we do this. Whenever we do for them what they need to do themselves it sends them the message that they aren't capable which only adds to their feelings of worthlessness/shame, entitlement and lack of problem solving skills.  Once more, taking the middle path would look more like assisting and supporting her rather than  doing it for her or leaving it all up to her.

To find the middle path we need to be in wisemind... .here is the link to that information:

Triggering, mindfulness, and wisemind.

lbj

[SueLee]

Thank you lbj.

Where I run into trouble is we are usually pinched for time when we go to help/bail her out when she gets in over her head. Round trip is 4 hrs and if we don't dig in it is a trip for nothing. And I believe she realizes this and uses it to her advantage. She is very educated in physiology so it helps her even more with manipulation I think.

Something interesting happened this morning. I had a pm on Facebook from her. I open it and it is a cute thing You share and has a cute saying... .she didn't share it to my wall which is what she has always done. It was a cute sentiment about my love of animals and for whatever reason she messaged it

[lbjnltx]

Thank you lbj.

Where I run into trouble is we are usually pinched for time when we go to help/bail her out when she gets in over her head. Round trip is 4 hrs and if we don't dig in it is a trip for nothing. And I believe she realizes this and uses it to her advantage. She is very educated in physiology so it helps her even more with manipulation I think.

Then the consequences would be you only had an hour left to help and she is left with finishing up by herself... .asking a friend... .leaving stuff behind.  This is where we as parents have to let them fail/learn/dysregulate without rescuing.  It's hard I know!

Setting our kids up for success is proactive.  For example... .you say she realizes the position you are in with investing in the trip so she uses your investment to manipulate.  Before heading her way you might call and say 'we are about to leave and head your way.  Will you be ready for us to help YOU pack?  We will only have 3 hours to spend before we need to head back home.' 

Here is an example from my life:

My step daughter and daughter wanted to go to a new Burger King that had a huge indoor playground, this place was 40 minutes from our house.  Most all the way there they fought with each other and I told them if they did not stop that we would not go... .they stopped and then about 10 minutes from our destination they started up again.  I said nothing.  I drove up to the Burger King and let them see how awesome the playground was and then told them we are not getting out of the car, we can try again tomorrow if you can both behave on the trip here.  And then we left.  Was I happy about wasting gas and time?  no... .the lesson was learned and the next day after church we went back and they had a good time.  The point is that we as parents suffer alongside our kids as they learn.  Is it fair how much we have to suffer to help our disordered kids?  NO! Do we still need to do it? Yes.

We can learn tools here on the site to help us ease our suffering as we let our kids learn... .sometimes that is all we can do.

[SueLee]

That is a very good suggestion. And what you did worked so well! Good job. I will try harder to implement more boundaries. The last time we had our granddaughter instead of meeting, we had to drive the whole two hours. I gave her heads up every so often on how close we were. We arrive and she is not home. Casual as can be... .I will be there in 20-30 minutes go ahead and eat... .

I said eat? It is 9:00 pm. We have had dinner. Please hurry. She did pretty well and was 20 minutes. But she just pushes everything.

[lbjnltx]

Pushing limits... .that's what we called it at my house... .and I use it as a reminder to my daughter when she begins to badger me or tests my boundaries... ."you are pushing limits here" and it gets her attention and she will usually back away.

[livednlearned]

Setting consistent boundaries required a deep reset for me. I wanted to be reasonable, and easy-going. A different kind of parenting is needed when there is abuse involved, though. The boundaries in my home matter more than anything else. Well, other than validation    

If things start to slip, then it's back to square one, and it's unpleasant. Like lbjnltx said, boundaries are hard. The work is hard. The pay off, though, is huge. You start to see your difficult child internalize the model you're applying, and it's like a miracle. Then they have better success using that model with others, out in the world where there are bosses.

If boundaries have been inconsistent and fuzzy, your D may test them and test them and test them, escalating each time. She might try to extort something for leverage, or withhold something you want. It takes a lot of backbone, especially if boundaries have been highly negotiable. That's what abuse is, in a sense. It's about having no regard for boundaries. In that sense, it takes two for an abusive relationship. If your boundaries protect you from abuse, then abuse cannot happen. It does mean that you can lose something you love, which is where radical acceptance helps.