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Author Topic: Are BPD's able to be "in love" or is it "in need"...  (Read 6006 times)
jalk
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« on: September 15, 2009, 09:19:23 AM »

This is a question I have often thought of. My ex BP always told me she was in love with me up until the bitter end when she said she was leaving me. Now, she is with her new victim, living in a house they bought together and said she has the best now. She was involved with this person a month before she left me I think. At least I know they were communicating with each other secretly. Now, I know for myself, I was in love with my ex. It's taking me time to fall out of love with her. With her, was it really in love like she said? Can't believe it with how she moved so fast. Seems more like needs to me.
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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2009, 09:35:28 AM »

I think that "in love" to them has a lot more to do with how they feel emotionally at any given moment.
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2009, 09:44:19 AM »

Love and collard greens.

One boy grows up in a house in the south, and is fed collard greens all of his life. Because of his roots, and his upbringing, these collard greens are so good, not because of the taste, but because of the tradition, and the memories that his subconscience mind ties to them. They are part of what defines him, they are his heritage. Collard greens are what he is use to, and part of his being.

A girl grows up in the north, never even hearing of collard greens. She tries them for the first time, but she doesnt like them, because she loves her beloved corn.

Is either wrong, or right? No.

Same thing as love, and the perception of love. We all have our own ideas about love based on our experiences, roots, origins, and influences. They arent "wrong" per se, just different.

Love to a disordered person usually means "person who is meeting my needs at this given time." They genuinely feel like they will stay together with that person forever. Only when the needs go unmet, or the needs overwhelm the love object, do they feel that their "love" is waining. They fall out of love, which really means, "my needs arent being met."

It isnt so much an arguement of right or wrong, but an understanding of beliefs. Once you understand that your love and her love are like collards and corn, you can then start to realize that this is more about her, than it was ever about you.
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2009, 10:26:54 AM »

I like how you explained the love and in love part. Funny enough when I was with my BPD girlfriend I thaught she was not "in love" with me because I felt she was emotionaly distant from me and after maybe a year of living togther at one stage I told her that she is not in love with because I felt she was distant... .offcourse I pointed out a feeling for her to recognize in the wrong way ... instead of saying to her "I feel that you are distant from me" so can we work on it ... .I labeled it for her that she is not in love with me. Offcourse when the first epsiode happend out of the blue and she felt a sense of abdandonemnt she called me to tell me that it is over between us because she is no"In Love with me" this is after 3 years of spending every second together and living with one another for a year. Funny enough she wants to meet with me face to face to explain why she decided to end it abruptly and explain it all to me. It realy broke my heart then till i came to understand whats going on and now I will see her next week as per her request to talk for 3 hours probably so she can explain why a 3 year relationship ended so abruptly as per her logic. I know that its a lot more deeper than just love and in love... .its something that she doesnt want to face or see, but I have kept recently dialogue with her thru validation though its limited to sms and emails as she doesnt want to phone chat. My question is this ... .can they fall back in love again? if their needs are met?
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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2009, 10:36:07 AM »

My question is this ... .can they fall back in love again? if their needs are met?

Sure they can, and often do. When a break-up occurs, we usually try to assess what we did wrong, and try to correct it. It usually ends up being us giving more of ourselves than we once did, to try to hold on to them. In other words, trying to fill their needs more than what we were doing.

My question to you is, is it worth trying to salvage a relationship based more on your supply of love, or met needs, than because of them actually adoring you as a person, like you want, and need to be. Its a tug of war that unfortunately, you cant win, because you arent the only source that can meet their needs, but because of the way we perceive love, we see them as the only source that can meet ours.
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Hannahbanana
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2009, 10:58:32 AM »

Sure they can, and often do. When a break-up occurs, we usually try to assess what we did wrong, and try to correct it. It usually ends up being us giving more of ourselves than we once did, to try to hold on to them. In other words, trying to fill their needs more than what we were doing.

Perfect example of this is, my ex called me in May last year telling me he did not love me, was not happy and wanted to be friends only.  My reaction was that i was pretty upset, considering just a week before it i was staying at his place for a few days and he told me over and over that he was so in love with me and had never felt such huge chemistry with a girl before.  He lay beside me on the grass in the park, telling me he wanted to build a house for me (as much as i knew it was just talk, i smiled thinking that it was so lovely how much this guy seemed to have fallen for me and was not afraid to tell me exactly how he felt about me)  So, receiveing a call telling me his feelings had changed, literally 2 hours after he had spoke to me on the phone on the way into work telling me he coudl not wait to see me again.  I was stunned!  This was roughly the middle of May last year and he spent 2 weeks continuing to call me 20 times a day, emailing me, IMing me, texting me and sending me pics of him smiling, drinking, eating... .whatever.  I was completely confused and although i knew he had ended it, nothing seemed to have changed at all.  Come the end of May, we are talking on IM and he sends me a link to a villa in Tuscany and flight details with the message "which time suits you to fly here"  I thought it was a joke and immediately called him asking him what he was doing, was it a joke, was he trying to confuse me!  He replied "when you are like this, who knows what can happen with us, i love you when you are this way, lets go to Tuscany together and see what happens long term eh"  I felt quite angry, not happy that he sent this, totally angry that he thought it was ok to toy with someone's feelings this way... .but did i tell him i was angry, no, i said "ok, lets do it"  An hour later, he sends me a text  saying "i could easily fall in love with you again X"
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2009, 11:33:50 AM »

I can't tell you all how many times my BF switches back and forth.  After about 10 months together he first tells me he loves me. Two weeks later he isn't sure what love is.  He knows he cares about me thinks the world of me all that but he doesn't know if he can love anyone afterall I can't tell him what love is.  One week later he hurts his back.  I take care of him.  All the sudden he loves me more than anything.  A few months later he's not sure.  YOU get the picture.  Now it's been 18 months that we've been together.  Two weeks ago he breaks up with me he doesn't love me.  The next day he didn't mean what he said.  He does love me.  He's always loved me.  Add to that he accuses me of having something wrong with me. That I'm moody. 

So my take on it is if he feels love he does.  When he's in some other mood he doesn't feel love.  And that's one of the BPD indicators he has.  I swear his nickname should be FLIPFLOP or FF. 

Now for him he's a believer in the following:

    get back on the horse that bucked you

    hair of the dog

And I think many BPD are the same... .Others take a step back and say boy I don't want to experience that pain again.  What could I have done differently?  What can I do to give myself the best chance in another relationship?  What can I do to have a Full tank?  That kind of thing. 

So really it's a difference in philosophy in getting to the same result.  We all want to share our lives with someone special and to live well.
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2009, 11:57:56 AM »

Let me know when you can fully define "love" Smiling (click to insert in post)

In the meantime, we have to go by what people actually do, consistently over time. If we can't find them livable enough to live with, then I'm not sure it matters whether there is some hidden "love" in there.
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eeyore
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2009, 12:07:37 PM »

Let me know when you can fully define "love" Smiling (click to insert in post)

I hope you aren't holding your breath.  And when he makes that statement I just go find something else to do because there's nothing good that can happen.
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2009, 12:24:59 PM »

Add to that he accuses me of having something wrong with me. That I'm moody. 

Well of course  

Since he can't see his own mood instability, he sees your reactions to it.  Which change with remarkable rapidity.

Like a drunk wondering why his shadow is weaving so much.
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2009, 02:02:49 PM »

They honestly don't know how often they flip or change or any of that.  They are emotionally in this moment.  I once showed my dBPDh a pattern of his that I had been recording for his T and he had absolutely no idea that he had repeated this "come here, go away" pattern so precisely for weeks that I could predict which days I would be lonely and need to find something to do etc.  Anyway, back to point - sure they think we are moody and weird cause they don't remember how they felt last week or yesterday or an hour ago.  That is why my BPDh therapist asks me to log his emotions or patterns because he can't remember when he goes to see her what happened since their last visit.

As for love, he loves me when he is with me but if he goes on a vacation he will forget me UNTIL something traumatic to him happens and then he wants to reconnect quickly. 
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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2009, 02:26:17 PM »

Rainer Maria Rilke has an excellent verse on love:

The point of marriage is not to create a quick commonality by tearing down all boundaries; on the contrary, a good marriage is one in which each partner appoints the other to be the guardian of his solitude, and thus they show each other the greatest possible trust. A merging of two people is an impossibility, and where it seems to exist, it is a hemming-in, a mutual consent that robs one party or both parties of their fullest freedom and development. But once the realization is accepted that even between the closest people infinite distances exist, a marvelous living side-by-side can grow up for them, if they succeed in loving the expanse between them, which gives them the possibility of always seeing each other as a whole and before an immense sky.

While many of us nonBPs can appreciate this and may even strive for such a connection, I think it's totally foreign, indeed frightening, to a BPD. They have the need to latch on, to profess their "love" and need to track their SO consistently, and are afraid to give such a gift of solitude to their SO because it would fuel their abandonment fears. How can they see "each other as a whole and before an immense sky" if the BPD is feeling anything but whole?

If love incorporates this sense of trust, in Rilke's view, it doesn't appear a BPD can love in this capacity.
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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2009, 07:58:47 PM »

>Love to a disordered person usually means "person who is meeting my needs at this given time." They genuinely feel like they will stay together with that person forever. Only when the needs go unmet, or the needs overwhelm the love object, do they feel that their "love" is waining. They fall out of love, which really means, "my needs arent being met."

I kinda hate to say this, but isn't this somewhat true with everyone? We might dress it all up in emotions and spirituality and virtue, but the stark truth is that we love someone because they meet many of our needs. Sometimes those needs are complex and not easily evident; sometimes people can't even articulate what needs are being met by their partner, even if their relationship is very happy and obviously meeting needs very well. Why else would we love someone?
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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2009, 06:40:32 AM »

I can't tell you all how many times my BF switches back and forth.  After about 10 months together he first tells me he loves me. Two weeks later he isn't sure what love is.  He knows he cares about me thinks the world of me all that but he doesn't know if he can love anyone afterall I can't tell him what love is.  One week later he hurts his back.  I take care of him.  All the sudden he loves me more than anything.  A few months later he's not sure.  YOU get the picture.  Now it's been 18 months that we've been together.  Two weeks ago he breaks up with me he doesn't love me.  The next day he didn't mean what he said.  He does love me.  He's always loved me.  Add to that he accuses me of having something wrong with me. That I'm moody. 

WOW! i feel i couldve written that... .it was almost exact... even down to him hurting his back/neck and me taking him to the doctor and caring for him... .that day i was "heaven sent".  he wanted me around all the time... .he didnt want to lose me... .i "handled him so well"

but it was always the back and forth... .i love you... .i dont know how i feel... .when im with you i love you... when im not with you i doubt my feelings for you

we separated ... he moved out and in with his divorced male friend and another mal to get “space”

but then immediately calls me to come over constantly and we had a great time

he told me he loved me and I questioned why he said that when he was the one not wanting to “put pressure” on the relationship

and then he told me when he said he loved me he meant that he appreciated me and all I do for him but he wasn’t “madly in love with me”…but he sees me as a companion that hes very attracted to and doesn’t want to be with anyone else but is so doubtful of the future he does not KNOW

then later he apologizes and just said he was hungry and irritable and woke me up by massaging me, making love to me, and then skinny dipping in the pool

he says I am one person he has never ever gotten sick of and always wants me around

and then….cut me off about 2 weeks ago via text after planning a romantic getaway to MA next month…he said it was because I was giving him attitude that morning.

…I was soo confused. I felt so alone. I thought I was crazy. I thought there was something wrong with ME.  I kept replaying things over and over. What did I do wrong? If I wasn’t attitudey that morning, would he still have cut me off?

Everytime things are going GREAT…he just caused some sort of fight and broke up with me.

We wound up working it out all the time.

After this time, I just let him walk away, and I miss him every minute.  He was my best friend and most days were full of fun and laughter and joy and love. 

Now I hear through the grapevine that since his friends are single he wants to be single and wants to be with “his boys” and enjoy his “youth” (hes 32) before settling down

But I’ve been hanging with his boys all summer with him and all they want is to find someone like me and settle down.

So what is he looking for?

I am so confused.

I’m giving him space and time.

I will call him I think in about 2 weeks.  But I don’t know if I should even bother after coming to this forum.  I kind of feel hopeless after reading all of these posts that nothing will ever change and I am just walking into a trap if I call and we get back together.

*SIGH*

What to do…what to do….

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jalk
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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2009, 09:51:03 PM »

My question is that if we fall in love because our needs are being met on some level, then why when the BPD leaves we grieve so much and still feel we are in love with that person. Our needs are no longer being met. But we still have the feelings of being in love. The BP on the other hand is well on their way getting their bottomless pit of needs being met, temporarily, with a new victim.
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« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2009, 10:02:15 PM »

I kinda hate to say this, but isn't this somewhat true with everyone? We might dress it all up in emotions and spirituality and virtue, but the stark truth is that we love someone because they meet many of our needs. Sometimes those needs are complex and not easily evident; sometimes people can't even articulate what needs are being met by their partner, even if their relationship is very happy and obviously meeting needs very well. Why else would we love someone?

Well ... .that's sort of true, but not (in my opinion) in any meaningful way.

That's kind of like saying "altruism doesn't really exist - people act altruistically because they like to; it makes them feel good. So it isn't really altruistic."
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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2009, 07:16:42 AM »

Agree Auspicious.
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Enoch
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« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2009, 08:00:42 AM »

Let me know when you can fully define "love" Smiling (click to insert in post)

Yes-yes... .defining love is hard... .but not that hard. Once we get past infatuation and sex-appeal and other emotionally driven feelings, love becomes a choice. Love in action and thought is "willing for the good of the object being loved". This is a universal condition. It applies to our parents, our mates, our children, to our friends, and to our pets as well. We can say out loud to each of these, "I love you" and what it really means is that I value you... .care for you enough, that I will and act for your good.

I think this is an acceptable and complete definition. Thanks to Dallas Willard for this insight.

When I love me, I will for my own good as well. Now, getting a grip on what that good is is very difficult, depending on lots of things. Back to the collard greens... .some folks have grown up with a very twisted sense of good. And we can and must do the hard work of finding those role models that love well. (I fear for young people today so influenced by the "Me" syndrome depicted in the media... .it is sickening and scary)

Can a BP love? Can they will for the good of others? I have seen my uBPw will for the good of many people. I know she is capable of it. "Willing" for someones good is a choice, an act of the will. It takes thought and purpose and is revealed in action. Yes, a BP can love.



Enoch
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« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2009, 08:19:54 AM »

Another thought about the phrase "I love you". Do the words spoken to you betray the actions of the one uttering the words? If so, they are more likely saying, "I feel good about you right now". Maybe this is why a BP can flip-flop so quickly. Their feelings over-rule everything else. Their feelings over-rule their stated comittment and change their behaviour. They go by their feelings... .which change like the wind.

I hear my wife say I love you to me several times a day. I don't get all warm and fuzzy about those words. The words don't meet my needs. What she does speaks much more loudly than what she says.

I hope this helps.


Enoch
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« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2009, 08:55:25 AM »

Excerpt
Can a BP love?huh Can they will for the good of others? I have seen my uBPw will for the good of many people. I know she is capable of it. "Willing" for someones good is a choice, an act of the will. It takes thought and purpose and is revealed in action. Yes, a BP can love.

Yes, I believe some can love. And they can hate equally with the least provocation.

Excerpt
And so I have remained trapped inside this isolated and insulated place of youth stunted in my emotional growth. I am a victim. It is not my fault. I hurt and I hurt and I hurt. Why don't you care? Why don't you care? Make it go away. Make it stop, just love me from over there. Love me, but don't you dare really care. It would hurt too much if you were to care. I wouldn't understand who you were caring for or about because I don't know who I am. I hate who I am and what I am. I hate whoever the hell I am. I have come to hate what it is that I might be, or sometimes am. I don't like the voided vacuum within which I feel like my being exists under a glass bubble. So close, yet so far away from others am I. So close, yet so far away, from whoever I am, am I. Who are you trying to care about? What does that mean, that you want to care about me? It would mean that I needed you to care. I don't need you to care but I am dying for you to care. Still, care from over there and don't act like I need you.

Explains alot... .

Excerpt
I panic at the thought of my weakness and fear being exposed. That's why I frantically create a mask to hide behind, a nonchalant sophisticated facade, to help me pretend, to shield me from the glance that knows. But such a glance is precisely my salvation. My only hope and I know it. That is, if it's followed by acceptance, if it's followed by love. It's the only thing that can liberate me from myself, from my own self-built prison walls, from the barriers I so painstakingly erect. It's the only thing that will assure me of what I can't assure myself, that I'm really worth something.

But I don't tell you this, I don't dare, I'm afraid to. I'm afraid your glance will not be followed by acceptance, will not be followed by love. I'm afraid you'll think less of me, that you'll laugh and your laugh would kill me. I'm afraid that deep-down I'm nothing, that I'm just no good, and that you will see this and reject me.

Brutal.

Excerpt
Each time you're kind and gentle and encouraging, each time you try to understand because you really care, my heart begins to grow wings, very small wings, very feeble wings, but wings! With your power to touch me into feeling, you can breathe life into me. I want you to know that.

I want you to know how important you are to me, how you can be a creator -- a honest-to-God creator -- of the person that is me, if you choose to. You alone can break down the wall behind which I tremble, you alone can remove my mask, you alone can release me from my shadow-world of panic and uncertainty, from my lonely prison, if you choose to. Please choose to. Do not pass me by. It will not be easy for you.

Love and loathing... .fear to trust, lack of acceptance as one cannot accept oneself... .

Having heard my H project some of these awful feelings on me... .it's hard to deny he is in pain... .

He has the worse end of the stick. A non can leave, but he can't run away from himself.

www.mjtacc.com/frameset.html?rpoems.html~mainFrame
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« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2009, 09:26:32 AM »

Yes, they can go back and forth. It's not dependant on having their needs met.   It's just according to their perception of events at the moment.

My  x has ALWAYS told me he loved me.   Even during the trip where he was moving my things back b/c he didn't want to live with me anymore,   he was still ending every phone call with  I love you.Of course that  was only one  week after he  stood in front of me welling up with tears telling me how much he loved me and he could never imagine a way that he could live without me in his life.   During times when we were broken up he always cried and told me how much he loved me.  That 'word' thing has never changed. 

When I first got to the board a year ago, whether he loved me or not was very  important.  Now a little older and wiser with a lot of time to examine him with my knowledge of BPD, what's important is how he treated me and whether I LOVE MYSELF. 

My xupdbf broke up with me because 'we don't get along'.  His idea of getting along was that  his ideas were your ideas, you ate the way he ate, woke at his time, never  asked questions, never wanted to discuss things.   Mine treated me more like I was a small child and worked hard to discourage me from my own opinions or needs by shutting down and distancing. 

I saw I really only existed as a mirror for his reflection.   I know it was very difficult for him to give up someone who was meeting so many of his needs yet he was compelled to make distance.  He knows there is something wrong with him.  Lots of times he's said to me, I don't know whats wrong with me or why I do this.    Even in the last break-up he said, i'm sure I'm doing the wrong thing but I'm going to do it anyway and then proceeds to haunt me.  Even yesterday I got a text that said " I miss u 2".   I never sent him a text that said I missed him.  He's just trying to bait me back.

They just get to a place where the intimacy is too great for them and they dismantle.  Doesnt matter how many of their needs you meet because their need for distance is greater.  Then they hit the re-set button and start again   

IC
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« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2015, 07:23:27 PM »

My question to you is, is it worth trying to salvage a relationship based more on your supply of love, or met needs, than because of them actually adoring you as a person, like you want, and need to be. Its a tug of war that unfortunately, you cant win, because you arent the only source that can meet their needs, but because of the way we perceive love, we see them as the only source that can meet ours.

Good quote.
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