Won't agree to divorce ~

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Told the uBPDw this past week that I was going to seek a divorce.  She's out of state right now.

Later in the week she told me she won't agree to it, and would consider a legal separation.  I'm going to hit up some lawyers next week and see how that works in my state.  I did a little googling, but I know the mileage varies on random legal websites.

One positive: LS in this state (via the web) means two years of not living under the same roof.

I'm trying to not get worked up, as I have no idea how things will play out.  I don't know if she'll change her mind.  I don't know if the LS process will be smooth.  I don't know if there's a way to go around the court (have lawyer draw up agreement, but not go through the court).  

I have to avoid the temptation to fight battles in my mind that haven't arrived yet.  Which is why I post here ;-)

Well, I guess it's progress.

Gomez

[gomez_addams]

Told the uBPDw this past week that I was going to seek a divorce.  She's out of state right now.

Later in the week she told me she won't agree to it, and would consider a legal separation.  I'm going to hit up some lawyers next week and see how that works in my state.  I did a little googling, but I know the mileage varies on random legal websites.

One positive: LS in this state (via the web) means two years of not living under the same roof.

I'm trying to not get worked up, as I have no idea how things will play out.  I don't know if she'll change her mind.  I don't know if the LS process will be smooth.  I don't know if there's a way to go around the court (have lawyer draw up agreement, but not go through the court).  

I have to avoid the temptation to fight battles in my mind that haven't arrived yet.  Which is why I post here ;-)

Well, I guess it's progress.

Gomez

[enlighten me]

If your serious about it then file for divorce.

I was going to but my exwife recycled me then filed herself. I was stuck with her calling all the shots and having to dance to her tune.

Gather as much evidence as you can for why you should be divorced. Any infidelity, reckless spending, violence , abuse etc.

You have to shiw them you can no longer continue in the marriage. Statements from a T showing how your wifes behaviour is affecting you.

This is something you need to control.

[gomez_addams]

If your serious about it then file for divorce.

I was going to but my exwife recycled me then filed herself. I was stuck with her calling all the shots and having to dance to her tune.

Gather as much evidence as you can for why you should be divorced. Any infidelity, reckless spending, violence , abuse etc.

You have to shiw them you can no longer continue in the marriage. Statements from a T showing how your wifes behaviour is affecting you.

This is something you need to control.

Thanks for the advice.

I'm prepared to move forward with a divorce, but I am going to hear her out.

There may be advantages to a quickly settled separation decree vs a contested divorce.  However, it'll be in writing and legally enforceable.  Met with the local police yesterday, and have a meeting next week with the court to pursue a TRO.

Gomez

[catnap]

Thanks for the advice.

I'm prepared to move forward with a divorce, but I am going to hear her out.

There may be advantages to a quickly settled separation decree vs a contested divorce.  However, it'll be in writing and legally enforceable.  Met with the local police yesterday, and have a meeting next week with the court to pursue a TRO.

Gomez

Secretly record your discussion with your wife, just in case it does get out of hand--you have proof of what really happened.  Is the intended discussion slated planned prior to you seeking a TRO?  If a TRO granted, then you would be breaking it by having contact with her. 

[livednlearned]

Hi gomez_addams,

Members sometimes consider legal separations here. It's not generally recommended, although it depends to some extent on the degree of BPD. Not all people with BPD are high-conflict personalities (HCPs), which is what Bill Eddy (author of Splitting: Divorcing an NPD/BPD Spouse) describes in his book. HCPs tend to be persuasive blamers, lock onto a target of blame (you), and recruit negative advocates. For men divorcing women with BPD, this tends to be "legal abuse," which is taking advantage of the laws to create living h@ll for you in the court system, often with false allegations of abuse.

This is why you might want to seriously consider recording the conversation about to take place. People with BPD have severe abandonment fears and high rejection sensitivity. Divorce is a difficult blow whether BPD or not, and her emotions -- which are already very volatile -- might be even more so at that meeting. Especially if you disagree with her terms.

Consent laws to record people are different in every state. In my state, for example, it is one-party consent. I don't have to get the other person's consent to record. Even so, it is not necessarily admissible in family law court. What some people do, whether their state is one-party consent or two-party consent, is to record the conversation in case police are called to the scene. Police apparently consider this kind of evidence at the scene.

If you are committed to divorce, be very clear what benefits there might be to legal separation, and make sure you are in no way compromising your safety or leverage. Too often, people here self-sabotage because they want to avoid conflict, or avoid hurting their spouse. The problem is that divorcing someone who does not want to divorce is like pulling off a band-aid. It's going to hurt more the slower you do it.

Most of the people here have experienced high to very high conflict divorces. For whatever reason, our spouses tipped over from having a PD into becoming a high-conflict personality, and tied things up in court whether through stonewalling and obstructing, or through false allegations. That means that simple, reasonable things can take years as we learn to use the court system to our advantage, and figure out how to identify leverage and use it so we can be legally free of the liabilities and burdens of marriage to a person with BPD.

That means: hold your cards close in this meeting. Keep your strategy to yourself and use the meeting to collect information, not share it. Make a decision to not decide anything while you are with her. Give her a chance to say her peace, and then confer with your L, or with friends here. If you give away your plan, there is a good chance she will obstruct you and add extra expense to what is already an expensive ordeal.

Good luck to you. We're here for you, and the collective wisdom on this board will hold you in good stead if you're willing to take it into account.

LnL

[gomez_addams]

Thanks for the advice.

I'm prepared to move forward with a divorce, but I am going to hear her out.

There may be advantages to a quickly settled separation decree vs a contested divorce.  However, it'll be in writing and legally enforceable.  Met with the local police yesterday, and have a meeting next week with the court to pursue a TRO.

Gomez

Secretly record your discussion with your wife, just in case it does get out of hand--you have proof of what really happened.  Is the intended discussion slated planned prior to you seeking a TRO?  If a TRO granted, then you would be breaking it by having contact with her. 

All of our conversations will be via Skype, phone, or e-mail.  I will talk to the family court about the TRO.  I'm mostly concerned with her coming back and trying to move in.  She's out of state with family.  I'm not sure if TROs allow for communication, but the court will explain that to me.

Thanks for the advice,

Gomez

[gomez_addams]

Hi gomez_addams,

Members sometimes consider legal separations here. It's not generally recommended, although it depends to some extent on the degree of BPD. Not all people with BPD are high-conflict personalities (HCPs), which is what Bill Eddy (author of Splitting: Divorcing an NPD/BPD Spouse) describes in his book. HCPs tend to be persuasive blamers, lock onto a target of blame (you), and recruit negative advocates. For men divorcing women with BPD, this tends to be "legal abuse," which is taking advantage of the laws to create living h@ll for you in the court system, often with false allegations of abuse.

I have a copy of Splitting, and will be re-reading.

This is why you might want to seriously consider recording the conversation about to take place. People with BPD have severe abandonment fears and high rejection sensitivity. Divorce is a difficult blow whether BPD or not, and her emotions -- which are already very volatile -- might be even more so at that meeting. Especially if you disagree with her terms.

Consent laws to record people are different in every state. In my state, for example, it is one-party consent. I don't have to get the other person's consent to record. Even so, it is not necessarily admissible in family law court. What some people do, whether their state is one-party consent or two-party consent, is to record the conversation in case police are called to the scene. Police apparently consider this kind of evidence at the scene.

Duly noted.  The past two months has been almost exclusively e-mail traffic, by design.

If you are committed to divorce, be very clear what benefits there might be to legal separation, and make sure you are in no way compromising your safety or leverage. Too often, people here self-sabotage because they want to avoid conflict, or avoid hurting their spouse. The problem is that divorcing someone who does not want to divorce is like pulling off a band-aid. It's going to hurt more the slower you do it.

Most of the people here have experienced high to very high conflict divorces. For whatever reason, our spouses tipped over from having a PD into becoming a high-conflict personality, and tied things up in court whether through stonewalling and obstructing, or through false allegations. That means that simple, reasonable things can take years as we learn to use the court system to our advantage, and figure out how to identify leverage and use it so we can be legally free of the liabilities and burdens of marriage to a person with BPD.

I have my list of priorities.  a) live separately, b) don't get financially destroyed, c) be fair to her.  I'm contacting several lawyers on Monday to set up the free phone consultations, get a feeling for how they operate, and the different bits of advice they might provide on how to prep.  I'll pick one by the end of the week.

That means: hold your cards close in this meeting. Keep your strategy to yourself and use the meeting to collect information, not share it. Make a decision to not decide anything while you are with her. Give her a chance to say her peace, and then confer with your L, or with friends here. If you give away your plan, there is a good chance she will obstruct you and add extra expense to what is already an expensive ordeal.

Good luck to you. We're here for you, and the collective wisdom on this board will hold you in good stead if you're willing to take it into account.

LnL

Sound advice.  I appreciate the wisdom that folks have picked up along the way.  Fortunately we have no kids, no houses, and everything we've purchased together (furniture, car, tv, kitchen appliances, etc... .) I'm willing to part with.  I hate the idea of playing hardball, but as the time to try to work out a settlement approaches, I'll definitely hit up everyone for advice on tactics.  I have a  number in my head (all this material stuff, and $X/month for the next year) that I would sign today.  Getting her to sign will be a pain.

Gomez

[catnap]

Some thoughts after reading all of your posts:

If you file for divorce and serve her prior to her leaving her parent's home, can you include a filing for exclusive use of the martial residence? Possible cost savings (if she stays at her parents) due to not having to pay for her to live in a separate place where you now live and mitigates the probability of false claims of DV.   

She is likely to go back to her parent's home--so if you are willing to give her all the things purchased together in the marriage (furniture, appliances, etc.) it might cost less to offer the value (or 1/2 the value for her portion) than to pay to transport these items to her home state.  If she wants the actual items, there needs to be a time limit set for her to move those items or forfeit them to avoid a possible protracted negative engagement over when to get them, she wants you to pay to store or transport, etc.  Ditto for storage of personal items--clothing, toiletries, books and so forth.

She is suggesting separation, IMO, to keep you financially obligated for a longer period of time. 

Keep what you are willing to give up in the divorce to yourself and to your future attorney.  If she knows you are willing to give her X, Y, Z. . .she will demand more.  You leave some things you do not really care about back in order to let her "win" some things. 

You know your own situation best, but do put your priorities first to take care of you. 

[livednlearned]

She is suggesting separation, IMO, to keep you financially obligated for a longer period of time. 

I agree. The only time legal separation has made sense to me with other members here is when it involves health insurance and ongoing medical conditions. There are so many ways you remain legally responsible for your spouse when you remain married, so if you are done and planning to divorce, then it's best to divorce and untangle yourself from the marriage contract. In my state, spouses have to be legally separated for a year before they can file for divorce. In that one year period, I was worried that my ex would drink and drive, in which case I would be liable because we shared car insurance.

[ForeverDad]

What would be the purpose of a Legal Separation?  To rescue the marriage?  If so, then LS is appropriate.  If not, then wouldn't it just be prolonging the fixes, like, ripping off the bandage too slowly?

I notice you're writing of separation.  So, separation or divorce?  That is a question you alone can decide.  I had a child to parent, so I had this additional practical reason to divorce:

What To Do... .Separation Agreement vs. Divorce?

Think about your question... .Should a divorce or separation be decided based on one issue, health insurance?  It seems you would need to decide which is the better route for you and then see how those many details including insurance are affected.

The laws will vary from state to state, but a legal separation may leave you still responsible for her debts, even new ones.  Do seek a legal opinion on how either choice would affect your finances (assets and debts) and custodial issues (custody and parenting time).

My lawyer had told me that he has almost never done separations.  The reason (in my area) not to do a legal separation with an acting-out disordered spouse is that the first time (separation) you go through the custody process, she may misbehave before the court and evaluator and you will be seen as the better parent resulting in favorable parenting time for you.  But if you later decide to take that final step and seek divorce, you may have to go through the custody evaluation all over again and the second time around she may know how to hide her behaviors and she might get more custodial responsibility and parenting time.

Some aspects to ponder.

About car insurance, if you garage your vehicles in separate locations, then the insurance companies probably want separate policies.  I didn't do anything about it at first, but when it came time to renew the insurance I mentioned we were divorcing and she lived elsewhere.  They agreed to send her a notice and give her a month or two to get her own policy.  I think it was with them.  The wonderful thing was that they got to be the bad guys, I just signed over to her my interest in the car's title.  What could have been a big issue between us was just a small road bump in the overall divorce.

[gomez_addams]

We just spoke for a half hour or so.

She told me that she spoke to a laywer after I told her I wanted a divorce.  She said she will not sign divorce papers, and that if it goes to court it can be expensive for me. 

She wants to come back for one month (to get her stuff), but does not have a plan in terms of "leaving on such and such day"... .She has a few medical appointments scheduled (here).  I don't think it'll take a month, but I didn't ask the dates of her appointments.

I really don't want to move, but I'm considering vacating where we rent and getting a smaller place.  She can come, get her stuff, and go.  The lease is month to month right now, so there's a finite amount of time she'd have to stay at this place. 

My options:

a) TRO, and she'll have to find a place to stay when she comes back.  She doesn't work, so that could be stupid expensive for me.

b) suck it up for a month.  It's a two-bedroom.  The other bedroom has no A/C, but for a month, so what.

c) Stay somewhere else for a month.  This could get really ugly if she doesn't leave.

d) Move out, terminate the lease.  She'll have <40 days to vacate.

I forgot to mention her about getting a checking account of her own.  I'll do that at our next conversation next week.  Get a checking account, send me the routing info, and I'll wire some money (small amount, roughly to what I'd be willing to pay for spousal support for a short duration).  I'll take her off the joint account (or create a separate account and route my direct deposit there).

I was planning to go back to school in 1-2 years.  I'm dreading the idea of any type of alimony that doesn't have an expiration date.  I've been planning on this for around a decade, and to cancel those plans in order to support someone who doesn't work would crush my very soul.  I mean, every financial and career decision over the past 8-10 years has centered around going to college around 2017-ish... .  I'm dreading this.  We live in an "equitable distro" state... .and she can have every dang material thing I own (minus computer hard drives).  I'm worried about being punished for saving money and a couple of good investments that blossomed in the <3 years we've been married.  I'm less worried about a QDRO.  I've got a few decades to put money back the retirement accounts.  I really need the taxable accounts (that I can freely access) to be as robust as possible.

Fortunately, from what I've read a <3 year marriage shouldn't have me on the hook for alimony/support for very long.  I have e-mails where she insists she was going to start working the minute I left my current employer.

Gomez

[ForeverDad]

Yes, less than 3 years is a short marriage.  It shouldn't be very complicated or onerous.  However, if you postpone things it will become a longer marriage.  I've heard comments that support is generally not more than half the marriage's length, often less.  For me support was 1/6 the length of my marriage, not to separation date, not to filing date, but to final decree date over 2 years later.  It was 15 years together but I paid as though they were 18.

Frankly you can't focus on the financial outcome.  Yes, do get a separate account for your paycheck deposits, you probably can't remove her from a joint account, she can legally drain the account as joint owner - family court may include the money later when financials are tallied up but probably the lawyer will ignore it - so just send your pay to a personal account.  If you have joint credit cards, close it, though they may require you to pay it off first.  If you have inheritance, keep it separate from marital money.  Seek experienced local legal advice because some things you worry about may not matter and some things you don't think are at risk are at risk if not handled the proper legal way.

And more important that the $$$ is your own safety and freedom.  If she has ever contemplated or threatened allegations, then prepare for them, you're at higher risk.  Don't think it can't happen.  More than a few here have spent the weekend in jail, all on false allegations or being framed for misbehaviors.  Best to keep your distance from her since you just don't know if or when the police will be called or allegations filed.  (And don't ever let her push your buttons and goad you into losing your cool, for all you know she might be recording or be setting you up.  Me?  I recorded myself (yes, she can be heard on the recordings too) as 'insurance' that I wasn't the one ranting, raging and generally misbehaving.  Didn't stop the allegations, we had a child together and so she was frantic to block me.  Eventually she lost some of her credibility, but that was after years in and out of family court.

[livednlearned]

FD's point about whether she has ever physically abused you or made false allegations is important. Start with her history -- that's the best predictor of how she will respond. If she is dangerous, your options may narrow.

Of the options you lay out, how would you rank order them in terms of safety. In terms of finances. In terms of triggering her worst defense mechanisms.

My options:

a) TRO, and she'll have to find a place to stay when she comes back.  She doesn't work, so that could be stupid expensive for me.

b) suck it up for a month.  It's a two-bedroom.  The other bedroom has no A/C, but for a month, so what.

c) Stay somewhere else for a month.  This could get really ugly if she doesn't leave.

d) Move out, terminate the lease.  She'll have <40 days to vacate.

Many of us make our decisions based on what is fair, reasonable, nice. With good communication, you can do what is safe for you (potentially the most triggering for her), and still try to minimize conflict. In general, though, the reasonable approach does not seem to work out the way we planned.

[gomez_addams]

Update:

She offered to go to mediation.  She has also asked that I provide for her to get an apartment.  She's also been talking to a lawyer.  Methinks she was advised that after less than three years of marriage, the spousal support (if any!) might not be as robust as she'd like.

I don't like the idea of playing hardball, and I do want to be fair.  Next week we will be speaking (over the phone) and I am going to make a generous settlement offer.  Not too generous, but better than she'd get in court.

Basically: long trial, I spend X amount of money, she gets little or nothing.  Settlement is faster, lower cost out of pocket to me, she gets more.  It's going to cost me either way, but the settlement will be much faster, and will benefit her.  Of course, she might decide to go the painful and fruitless route.

I'm preparing to break the lease and live elsewhere if she returns from out of state.  (Sweet merciful Lord I hope she isn't reading my posts on here LOL).  I want to avoid that because she will have no where else to go in this state (no friends, family, no job, savings).  Best case scenario is that she settles without coming back.

I don't want her to feel that I'm saying "how much to end this right now, peacefully"... .because that would be the most gosh-awful trigger ever.  So I will S.E.T. and D.E.A.R.M.A.N. towards a settlement as best I can.

I've interviewed/consulted a couple of lawyers.  The one today was a no-go.  Did not seem like a good fit to have dealing with someone who is BPD (referred to her as "crazy" and having been in the "looney bin"... .waiting on another callback, and the first one I spoke to seemed like a good fit.  His retainer is based on contested/uncontested, so I'll know how much to pay the man after the convo with the uBPDw next week.

Anyone ever successfully (or unsuccessfully) negotiate a settlement?  She doesn't work (and her SS statement shows she has intermittently worked her whole adult life).  Her mom has mentioned on two occasions that she has always avoided/had excuses for not being employed.  I'm hoping generous + short-term (<12 months) vs potentially nothing will prompt her to settle.

Gomez

[enlighten me]

I made the mistake of being too generous with my ex wife. I let her keep evertthing in the house. Her two cars which I bought. I also cleared nearly £20,000 of debt she had amounted. I paid the rent and bills for six months aswell. She then took me to the cleaners in court.

While we want to be kind and not see them suffer they will go Into survival mode. Once they realise the divorce will happen the will play the victim. They will come to you with tales of hardship hoping you will rescue them. Once they get all they can out of that tactic then they will play hardball. They have a warped sense of injustice so also have a warped sense of entitlement.

What I am trying to say is dont let your kind heart be abused. You can get a fair settlement and after that if you want to do more you can but dont make the mistake i did and pay anything before.

[gomez_addams]

titlement.

What I am trying to say is dont let your kind heart be abused. You can get a fair settlement and after that if you want to do more you can but dont make the mistake i did and pay anything before.

Great advice, thanks.  And sorry to hear about how it worked out for you.

My biggest sticking point is that any support must end on a specific day in the next year: I'm leaving my job and heading back to school.  She knows this.

She's agreed to get her own bank account, and I will wire her some money.  

I'm not trying to hide money from her, but I had savings from before the marriage (saved over the past 10 years) that was designed to help the transition to college next year.

While we want to be kind and not see them suffer they will go Into survival mode. Once they realise the divorce will happen the will play the victim. They will come to you with tales of hardship hoping you will rescue them. Once they get all they can out of that tactic then they will play hardball. They have a warped sense of injustice so also have a warped sense of entitlement.

It's as if you've met her!  She wants me to set her up with an apartment back in her hometown.  She lived at home with her folks most of her adult life.  Suddenly, after 2+ years of marriage, she's entitled to live rent free.

Gomez

edited to add: she needs to get a J.O.B.  She worked for a few months during the marriage.  Her mom has mentioned on several occasions that she has always had excuses for not working.

[enlighten me]

Its scary how similar they are. Especially with it being almost the same story over and over again spread across the planet.

I think emotional imaturity drives this. They still live in the comfort zone a child has where their parents look after their every need. When they grow up they seek this comfort zone replacing their parents with us. This has helped me understand what ive dealt with and still do as i have two uBPD exs and children with both.

When the looming threat of losing this comfort zone arrives they panic.

They feel you should provide without question as that is what a parent does.

[gomez_addams]

She's making requests for support (settlement-wise) that make no sense.  Some strange calculations based on number of months married and my average paycheck and such.  And telling me two lawyers told her she was entitled to it.  When we get to mediation, I have a number that I can live with... .I won't discuss it with her until there's paperwork to be signed.  Anything under that number and I'll sign it on the spot, and have the divorce paperwork filed that afternoon.

I'm going to schedule mediation next week, for the week she gets back into town.

I'm dreading her coming back to this state to work out the mediation.  I'm building my emergency plan, and I'll be ready to roll in a moments notice to a safe place to stay if necessary. 

I'm also going to have a list of rooms for rent that I can grab on short notice, if necessary.  Our place is month-to-month, so if she comes back to gather things, handle mediation, say goodbye to friends and begins to overstay, I'll bug out.

I'll have a better idea of my options after I retain a lawyer next week... .

The thing that kills me is that we've been married less than three years.  I could give a ton of money to a lawyer, and the courts would tell her to get a job (with some money from me to help her transition).  The full-on victimhood makes it tough to stay unemotional... .I try to stay focused on the numbers, the laws, and getting through this.  I plan to have a huge cry when it's over and done.  She truly does not understand that I'm will to give her more than the courts will order.

Gomez

[enlighten me]

Ive just had first hand the sense of entitlement from my ex wife. My last contract finished in november so just waiting for another to start. I continued paying maintenance but reduced it last month. She threw a fit yesterday over money as it has cost her for me to do both sides of of the pick up and drop off as she couldnt do one half which she has to. She told me to get a job so I could pay her more money. The fact I dont have to pay her a penny is lost on her. Also the fact that my payments would reduce if I started any old job is again lost on heer.

[gomez_addams]

It really clarifies for me why I'm seeking a divorce.  There's absolutely no compromising, working together on things, give-and-take, etc... .  She goes from zero to drawing a line in the sand nuclear in under three seconds.

"I know my rights!"

"I'm entitled!"

"Support me the way I deserve!

I have a feeling the mediation session is going to be the worst day of my life so far.  Especially if it doesn't go well for her.  I hate seeing her in full disregulation.

Gomez

[enlighten me]

Just remember you have to leave feelings out of this and rely on logic.

ive no doubt that what you have in mind will be over generous as we are generally generous people.

You might want to go in low and see what the mediator thinks. No doubt your ex will blow up at this which will probably gain you some sympathy from the mediator.

[livednlearned]

You can also ask to be in separate rooms. The pros: you are buffered from the dysregulation. The cons: you have to interpret what the mediator is saying that your ex is saying. So it can be like that old-fashioned telephone game with the tin cans. Some stuff will get lost in translation.

[gomez_addams]

You can also ask to be in separate rooms. The pros: you are buffered from the dysregulation. The cons: you have to interpret what the mediator is saying that your ex is saying. So it can be like that old-fashioned telephone game with the tin cans. Some stuff will get lost in translation.

This is a thought.  The lawyer I'm probably going with (putting the retainer down this week) is also a mediator.  Not going to use him for mediation, but at least he'll be familiar with the concept and can advise me going in.  I'll ask him.

Additionally, I'm looking at what I know for fact she'll get (in terms of 1/2 the gain on retirement investments, etc... .) and what it'll cost me in legal fees to fight, and using that as a ceiling.  It'll boil down to a) how much will I pay to settle now, and b) can I get it all in writing and proceed from there. 

I'll need to ask the lawyer/mediator if I can finish the mediation session with paperwork ready to file, or at least something signed that makes a long, protracted trial less likely.

Gomez

[gomez_addams]

Just remember you have to leave feelings out of this and rely on logic.

ive no doubt that what you have in mind will be over generous as we are generally generous people.

You might want to go in low and see what the mediator thinks. No doubt your ex will blow up at this which will probably gain you some sympathy from the mediator.

Spot on.  I have a spreadsheet, that includes the value of the car, what we owe on the car, my monthly income, how much/how long to replenish investments.  When I'm focused on numbers, it's simple.  When I hear her disregulated voice in my head, nothing in life is simple.

Last night was a rough night.  I couldn't sleep.  I envision the worst and get myself riled up.  I know it will be even harder when she's back in town for a few weeks.

I also need to talk her into having a plan (meaning tickets, date set) to go back home.

Additionally, she's agreed to open up a checking/savings account and send me the bank info.  I'll wire her a small amount at first, and then remove her from our joint checking (or transfer to a new account, if that's not possible).  At that point I'm much more protected financially.  No joint credit, no joint bank.  More leverage (go ahead, hire an attorney, Dear).

Gomez

[GaGrl]

Is it worth the cost of the ticket for you to make the airfare arrangements and pay, in order to make sure she leaves on the date you expect?

[gomez_addams]

Is it worth the cost of the ticket for you to make the airfare arrangements and pay, in order to make sure she leaves on the date you expect?

Yes.  Yes x infinity.

And she has zero savings and no job.  So I'm paying for it anyway.  One of the problems is that we have very little immediately liquid savings of our own, despite my income.  I have long-term savings from before the marriage, but it's 72-96 hours to get it transferred, and that's my life's savings.  I can replenish within reason, but I'm planning to leave my job in 2016 and go to college.  I realize that might not work, but it's the #2 priority (behind ending the marriage).

She's supposed to get a savings/checking account in the next few days.  I have money I can move to my own checking account, but I don't dare until after she's off the account.  Once she has the account I'll wire her a bit, get her off the account, wire myself some savings, etc... .

This week I'll get her to agree to a travel date and score a ticket.  But that doesn't mean she'll get on the plane.  I'll have a plan in place if she doesn't -- meaning get a new place to live, terminate the lease, and leave her hanging.  Not optimal, but I will if necessary.

I will admit that she has done much better regulation-wise in the past two months or so.  She can still go to 11 on the BPD scale, but the therapy and time away seems to have produced some results.  Just not enough to consider staying together for the long haul.  Better to end a marriage at 2.5 years than to end it at five or ten, and I don't believe it will work in the end.

Gomez

[enlighten me]

When I split from my ex wife I had notbing but the clothes on my back and my car. She stripped our joint account so I couldnt afford to rent anywhere. I ended up living in a tent for a month. Luckily I had a good job working away so once I had done a rotation I was able to find somewhere to rent

one thing that amazed me after the split was how much more money I had.  I didnt realise what a financial drain she was. It wasnt the big things but the trickle of little things. Picking up treats for her, getting a special meal, going places she wants ti

My point withthis is that no matter how bad thingsmay seem theyre neveras bad as you think.

[gomez_addams]

one thing that amazed me after the split was how much more money I had.  I didnt realise what a financial drain she was. It wasnt the big things but the trickle of little things. Picking up treats for her, getting a special meal, going places she wants ti

My point withthis is that no matter how bad thingsmay seem theyre neveras bad as you think.

The first few months she was gone (out of state) I moved about $5K into savings.  Because that's what was leftover after I was done eating steak every other night.  In the previous 24 months we had less in savings than we started the marriage with.  And I haven't been eating steak every other day.

Gomez

[enlighten me]

So what was it that the money was going on? My ex wife was a secret shopper. When we split she had bags of clothes and shoes that she had hidden and never worn. Most still had the labels on and some werent even her size. I can understand wrong size clothes as she might have hoped to slim down but the wrong sized shoes baffles me. Not like her feet were going to shrink.

I also spent a lot on mysterious breakages. Like I said before the little things were where most of it went. Magazines, sweets, presents for people for no reason, dog collars and leads (even though they had good ones), exercise fads, diet fads the list goes on.

[gomez_addams]

We have tons of stuff around the house.  Framed photographs.  Scented candles.  Little things.

We're in a high cost of living area.  Stuff just costs more.  She's big on using cash withdrawls and envelopes to budget, which would be fine except she's also big on using the debit card at the grocery store (there's a grocery envelope), the arts and crafts store, Wal Mart, the gas station (there's a gas/car mx envelope), etc... .

Last year we withdrew $18K in cash from the bank.  But we also spent nearly $10K on local stores on the debit card.  Now I'm partially responsible for that... .but attempts to budget late last year were met with "do it yourself" -- which I can't do because I have no idea what the envelope money is spent on.

The envelope system is genius if you use it.  As in, you don't use the debit card.

I also cut the electric bill IN (expletive deleted) HALF since she has been gone.

The fuel bill for her car: if the spouse doesn't work, and goes hiking an hour away from home a few times a week -- that's more than my fuel bill to go earn a paycheck.

I guess this was the long exasperated version of saying "I have no idea where the money went"... .LOL.

Edited to add: also the occasional item off amazon, or from Bed Bath & Beyond, or what-have-you. 

Gomez