Ex-wife wants to meet to "discuss" things before divorce ~

[llor]

I have been seperated from my ex-wife with BPD for now almost 10 months. Not even two months ago she was sending me crazy messages and insults at which point I instituted NC.

We started talking again last week as we need to eventually meet to file for divorce. Told her its ok with me if we talk strictly business. Told her also I wanted to wait until I had all my paperwork ready before we did that and that we could meet sometimes in two months to discuss it.

Now she says she wants us to meet before that, to "harmonize" things before we meet. She claims she has been doing therapy, is taking good meds, is happy now and just want us to meet informally first.

Not sure I trust her on that. I know she still misses me and would like us to remain friends but at this point I still dont feel like talking to her "informally". Business is business and we need to talk to file for divorce, but I dont feel like I want to have a "friendly" conversation with her now, or ever again for what it matters.

What do you guys think ? Should I go and meet her informally or not ? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

[SWLSR]

Its up to you if you want to meet with her.  I doubt much harm will come from it but she is trying to suck you back into her game she will never stop that even after the divorce

[LeonVa]

For me, I will NOT meet up with her.  It's never informal.  Sooner or later, they will blame you for the things happened or make some requests that lack any common sense, but that's just me.

[livednlearned]

llor, what are your thoughts about how the meeting will go, your reactions, her reactions, and how it might affect divorce proceedings?

How would you describe her ability to cooperate? Is she ever dangerous (false allegations)?

In general, it takes many years of intense therapy (like DBT) for BPD to go into remission. What kind of therapy is she doing? What are the medications for?

[Panda39]

Hi Ilor,

My SO's uBPDxw did this all the time.  Lets meet for coffee and talk about xyz... .then she'd cancel... .reschedule... .  He being the reasonable guy he was would keep trying to cooperate until he figured out she was still trying to control him and keep him on a string. None of these get togethers amounted to a hill of beans. It was all about contact with him and playing manipulative games to try and get him back/keep him in her life.

Do you think you need to meet to iron things out?  If you do I think meeting her is worth a shot.  Just be sure you are meeting with her because you want to.  Watch your boundaries and watch her actions... .does she stay on task or does she bring up other things outside of what you were meeting about.  If she can't stay on the task at hand you can always get up and leave.

And on the paranoid side   meet in a public place so things (hopefully) won't escalate to something ugly and you can't have false accusations made about you.  There are alot of scary stories around here. Protect yourself.

[ForeverDad]

How would you describe her ability to cooperate? Is she ever dangerous (false allegations)?

In general, it takes many years of intense therapy (like DBT) for BPD to go into remission. What kind of therapy is she doing? What are the medications for?

Two very excellent questions.  If she has ever made or contemplated threats or allegations, then your risk is higher.  Another factor for heightened conflict is whether you two have children together.  If not, then yes it is easier to keep things focused on the business of unwinding the marriage.

She may want to part as friends but that's difficult to do.  Generally you can't get closure from a person with an acting-out PD, so closure will probably be something you'll have to GIFT to yourself.

More likely is that she's making promises hoping you will come back.  Promises without real follow-through won't last.  Starting therapy or meds is only that, a start.  And meds are to moderate and support, they aren't the 'fix' that long term effective therapy is.  Is she doing it for herself, as it should be, or for show?  Would she apply it in her life, thinking, perceptions and behaviors?  Would she do what really counts, stick with it long term?  A few weeks or months or faking it is not enough.

[maxen]

hi llor.

We started talking again last week as we need to eventually meet to file for divorce.

do you?

[llor]

what are your thoughts about how the meeting will go, your reactions, her reactions, and how it might affect divorce proceedings?

How would you describe her ability to cooperate? Is she ever dangerous (false allegations)?

In general, it takes many years of intense therapy (like DBT) for BPD to go into remission. What kind of therapy is she doing? What are the medications for?

I am not sure how it would go to be truly honest. However I am hoping that meeting with her you know giving her what she ''wants'' might smooth things up for the divorce.

The mainn reason I am actually meeting with her is that there is a chance that she is entitled to a chunk of my military pension (I'm CA Mil) and I want to try to give her cash or some of my investment funds rather than giving that up.

But I agree with you. She actually went through behavioral therapy while we were still together for 2 years which helped but that sudden change of attitude from full fledge crazy to nice miss well-behaved in that short time scares me abit.

[llor]

hi llor.

We started talking again last week as we need to eventually meet to file for divorce.

do you?

That is the question I have been asking myself. Id' love to be able to not have to meet with her again.

[ForeverDad]

She actually went through behavioral therapy while we were still together for 2 years which helped but that sudden change of attitude from full fledged crazy to nice miss well-behaved in that short time scares me a bit.

Was she truly, sincerely, solidly nice?  If so, then that shouldn't scare you.  From your earlier posts, I don't think she improved that much, or at least not what you'd call 'stable' and 'mentally healthy/healthier'?

My marriage was increasingly troubled but still somewhat manageable - until we had a child.  Uninformed fool that I was, I thought having a child would make her be more positive.  It was the opposite, life quickly went downhill faster and the marriage imploded when our son was 3 years old.  I learned the hard way that having children does not fix a marriage, but does make it much more complicated to unwind it.  As wonderful as children are, if you don't have children and the marriage is ending, be thankful you didn't have children.

When you separated she started seeing other men which, in the old days, used to be basis to end a marriage.  BTW, good advice is that you don't start new relationships before you are divorced.  Things can get really complicated.  For example, my ex's sister met a man who was getting a divorce.  Ahem.   They had two children and he was still getting a divorce.  It was more years before they got married.  So please end the marriage before you start seeking other relationships.  Yes, you may meet someone, but you were with your ex for several years, you need time to 'recover' and get rebalanced.

Finally, with pensions and other assets and debts that are in play and at risk, seek consultations for legal advice from experienced family law attorneys.  You'll find out what is crucially important and what isn't.  And how to avoid common blunders.

[llor]

She actually went through behavioral therapy while we were still together for 2 years which helped but that sudden change of attitude from full fledged crazy to nice miss well-behaved in that short time scares me a bit.

Was she truly, sincerely, solidly nice?  If so, then that shouldn't scare you.  From your earlier posts, I don't think she improved that much, or at least not what you'd call 'stable' and 'mentally healthy/healthier'?

My marriage was increasingly troubled but still somewhat manageable - until we had a child.  Uninformed fool that I was, I thought having a child would make her be more positive.  It was the opposite, life quickly went downhill faster and the marriage imploded when our son was 3 years old.  I learned the hard way that having children does not fix a marriage, but does make it much more complicated to unwind it.  As wonderful as children are, if you don't have children and the marriage is ending, be thankful you didn't have children.

When you separated she started seeing other men which, in the old days, used to be basis to end a marriage.  BTW, good advice is that you don't start new relationships before you are divorced.  Things can get really complicated.  For example, my ex's sister met a man who was getting a divorce.  Ahem.   They had two children and he was still getting a divorce.  It was more years before they got married.  So please end the marriage before you start seeking other relationships.  Yes, you may meet someone, but you were with your ex for several years, you need time to 'recover' and get rebalanced.

Finally, with pensions and other assets and debts that are in play and at risk, seek consultations for legal advice from experienced family law attorneys.  You'll find out what is crucially important and what isn't.  And how to avoid common blunders.

Wow! Thank you for taking the time to read my earlier posts and whole story Its really appreciated!  Yeah I recently figured out after a few dating blunders that I do need the time to be alone, re-balance my life, recover and get rid of some fleas too.

Reading your advice and the one from all the folks here, I decided to respect my boundaries: I don't feel like nor have the desire to meet up with my ex other than to discuss divorce business. Nothing more.

Thank you for the advice again !

[whirlpoollife]

If it was my xh , wanting to meet up with me to discuss divorce it would only be his intentions of wanting to find out what I have in mind on splitiing things up and then use it against me.

I'd consult an attorney first then talk with her afterwards.  You don't want her to come after the pension later, after having giving her cash first.

[scraps66]

My thoughts would be with whirlpool, this is just an attempt to go fishing.

My ex did similar things with her first ex, and me.  A very good example, I have a few e-mails between them, what I gather he had told her he did not want to have a child with her, or couldn't get her pregnant, one or the other.  So, what does a BP do, she started cheating on him.  Punishment for him. 

So these e-mails I have are at the beginning of deciding whether they would divroce, who would file, etc.  Well, she asks him about "what she can expect" in terms of how they will split everything up.  That was the end of the documentation I had, but I did have the divorce complaint.  She actually filed.  She filed a fault divorce claiming HE was an adulterer!  Talk about projection.

So there is little that a meeting with a BP can result in anything positive especially at the beginning of the divorce process.  There are always motives.

If definitively set on a divorce, start going down your own path and isolate yourself from your STBx.

[maxen]

hi llor.

We started talking again last week as we need to eventually meet to file for divorce.

do you?

That is the question I have been asking myself. Id' love to be able to not have to meet with her again.

i live in NYS and here, you don't have to meet to go through divorce, unless it's mediation, and not even necessarily then.

my experience: the things my exw did at the end of the marriage were so savage and she was so unapologetic, but she played passive so perfectly that we did in fact meet (twice), and those were the most painful hours of my life. i haven't seen her since (september 2013) and heard her voice only once, whereupon i hung up on her. and this has been horribly painful and it was surely the right thing to do. in the early days i would have been outdone by her, so it was self-protection, and now it would only be a trigger.

but having a lawyer, an ice-cold lawyer who ran interference for me at every stage and made it possible for me never to have to contact my exw (we don't have children either), was, frankly, part of my emotional recovery. i know your situation with your exw is different, and i wouldn't speculate on why she wants to meet with you: she may be fishing, but she may also have BPD abandonment issues and just want to know that you're still "there" in some sense. but meeting with her only to discuss divorce issues is still meeting with her and you have to consider that the conversation will wander when you see each other again.

do you have a lawyer?

[catnap]

I am not sure how it would go to be truly honest. However I am hoping that meeting with her you know giving her what she ''wants'' might smooth things up for the divorce.

The main reason I am actually meeting with her is that there is a chance that she is entitled to a chunk of my military pension (I'm CA Mil) and I want to try to give her cash or some of my investment funds rather than giving that up.

You need an attorney--one who has experience with high-conflict as well as military.   "Giving her what she wants" is never a good because she will view it as a sign of weakness.  Your offer needs to leave you wiggle room to "give up" things you do not really care about.  My guess is this informal meet up is a fishing expedition. 

[livednlearned]

However I am hoping that meeting with her you know giving her what she ''wants'' might smooth things up for the divorce.

Smoothing things up for the divorce usually means being a doormat and giving her whatever she wants.

Some people choose this, and if that's your path, that's your path.

I found there was a middle way, that involved some incredibly helpful interpersonal skills that I completely missed during childhood and early adulthood. Being able to apply these skills was a life changer, and marked not only the end of the relationship, but the beginning of a whole new way of presenting myself, especially in the midst of conflict.

I didn't choose this, it sort of falls to those of us who have to stay engaged because of the kids. The emotional recovery process is a bit different. You have to keep problem solving and looking for that third way.

The best person to learn from in terms of these skills is Bill Eddy. And then practice them on people, working your way up to your wife.

The most simple skill is recognizing when someone is out to roll over a boundary. Go into a meeting with a bottom line, something you will not give up. A person who does not care about you, only about winning, will try 18 different ways to roll over you. So say no, and start counting. Eventually, when you say no repeatedly, the boundary rolling will escalate. "I want to try again and get back together" will become "you are a piece of crap excuse for a person and I hate you, always have."

Or, go into a meeting with a high-conflict person, and commit to not commit to anything. Decide in advance that you will hear her out, but not make any decisions. "Thanks for taking the time to describe all of this. I need some time to think about it. I'll get back to you after I've had some time to think." And then get some distance so you can cool your emotional jets and get that problem-solving part of your brain to weigh in.

Skills like that. By the end of this divorce, if you want to turn it into a big life-changing empowering experience, you'll try out these skills and boost your confidence, not fearing conflict or being victim to it so much.

[llor]

Well I have an update for you guys:

Wrote her back this morning that I appreciate that she made the effort to want us the meet informally and that I am happy to see that she is moving in the right direction but for now I dont think we should see each other informally and that we should wait for the both of us to have our paperwork ready before we meet/talk.

Right after I sent that e-mail she called me: "Asking why wont you meet ? I don't understand ? Why do you avoid me so much ? I have been doing soo much better"

Told her that I said my piece, that until recently she was not acting properly and that overall I dont feel like meeting with her informally. I confirmed her that it is not my intention to play hardball but that I don't see the point in a informal meeting.

She then Said: " I want to re-establish lines of communications for a better discussion during the divorce" At which point I said that I want her to respect my decision to not see her for now, and that if she is doing so much better, she will respect my decision" After which point I hung up.

Sounds silly but I really felt good; having established my boundaries and made sure she respected them

[Panda39]

Nice Job enforcing your boundaries 

[Godslove]

If your heart says no, say no. I am telling it to myself over and over. My BPD (kids' dad) wanted to talk to me on the phone only on the phone not in writing after we have communicated through emails and texts mostly. My divorce is coming up soon so I know he would push me to sign some free divorce paper from the web like last year he tried with separation papers. I got my l. sent him a letter to communicate with me in writing regards to children and other business through the l. After he got the letter, he called me, texted me and emailed me about the letter and barked at me to pick up the phone at children's exchange today. Intimidating but I managed to face him and said check the email. Now he is trying to push my boundary again with the same issue (pick ups and drops off).

I just read your update. Kudos establishing your boundaries! I am getting there!

[livednlearned]

Often when you set a boundary, there is an escalation, what some refer to as an extinction burst. This is from the site:

When the person with Borderline Personality Disorder becomes dysregulated or depressed. bpdfamily.com recommends that you give them the space to self sooth - not try to do it for them.  Take a deep breath and politely and non-aggressively disengage. It’s not easy to block out the distraction and emotional pleas for our attention, yet it is only with a critical pause that we can really stay on a constructive and healthy pathway.

This act is called extinction. We essentially remove our reinforcement in an attempt to stop the  behavior. We simply stop rewarding the behavior.

When our partner doesn’t get the expected response (reinforcement by us) it may scare or anger them and they may try harder to  engage us using threats, violence, destruction, intimidation, name calling, belittling, promises of withholding necessary things, retaliation, or any other painful thing they can think of to get us to engage.   This escalation is know as an extinction burst.

Extinction Burst - The term extinction burst describes the phenomena of behavior temporarily getting worse, not better, when the reinforcement stops.

Spontaneous Recovery - Behavior affected by extinction is apt to recur in the future when the trigger is presented again. This is known as spontaneous recovery or the transient increase in behavior. Be aware of this eventuality. It is a part of the extinction process. Don't be discouraged.

You can read the discussion here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.msg847610#msg847610

[llor]

Often when you set a boundary, there is an escalation, what some refer to as an extinction burst. This is from the site:

Oh yeah, there was escalation. She wrote me back right after I hung up with her. Claiming that she doesnt want the divorce to feel like an ATM transaction, that for her it must be done in friendship, respect and honesty. (I am all in for respect and honesty, but she can shove her friendship somewhere... .) So as a punishment now she said that she will only be willing to talk about the divorce again after this summer as she does'nt need my negativity at this point in time in her life. She then finally said (which scared me abit) that she does'nt care if we dont get the divorce finalized for 10 years, she he is in no hurry.

When she said that I knew right away she is not doing fine as she claims and is freaking out (fear of abandon).

Told her that I will try to communicate with her again when I have my paperwork ready.

I am starting to think that if she is not ready to talk as an adult and accept the fact that even if she doesnt like it we are divorcing; I will start filing for divorce on my own via my lawyer. Might cost me abit more but so be it. I just want to move on and get it done with.

[ForeverDad]

She then finally said (which scared me a bit) that she doesn't care if we don't get the divorce finalized for 10 years, she he is in no hurry.

I will start filing for divorce on my own via my lawyer. Might cost me a bit more but so be it. I just want to move on and get it done with.

My SIL (ex's Sis) had a boyfriend who for years and years was getting a divorce.  I really think he didn't push to get the divorce done, he had children in the marriage.  Meanwhile she had 2 children with him.  Eventually the divorce was final but as I recall they still didn't marry.  It was only when they were going to move and buy a house they got married.

You are right, you make have to step up and keep the divorce process moving along in the right direction or else risk playing defense, catch up and damage control.

I was separated for months before filing for divorce.  Naturally, her response was to counter-file for custody and to keep me on the defense (reacting rather than being proactive) she filed in yet another court, the third one for us, alleging harassment and stalking.  So while you don't face custody issues, be aware she can still find ways to make allegations in an attempt to make you look worse than her.  Maybe she won't, but if she has contemplated or threatened doing so then the risk is higher.

[livednlearned]

Make sure your lawyer does not allow any continuances, under any circumstances.

This part of the divorce process really took me by surprise. Lawyers wheel and deal when they bump into each other in court, and they work hard to be cordial, so they ask favors, return favors, talk about former cases they tried against each other. Yakkity yak. They can get a little ahead of themselves in the name of keeping things on the level with each other, at your expense.

So let your L know, "no continuances." Most things in court have deadlines and unless a lawyer agrees to continue or bypass the deadline, things roll ahead.

If you want to be divorced in the US, you can be divorced. Half the people I saw in court were one party being sworn in by the court, stating age, address, years of marriage, name, the oath, etc. And then 30 seconds later being granted a divorce without the other party anywhere in sight.

Don't let her scare you. She doesn't understand how things work here.

[llor]

Make sure your lawyer does not allow any continuances, under any circumstances.

If you want to be divorced in the US, you can be divorced. Half the people I saw in court were one party being sworn in by the court, stating age, address, years of marriage, name, the oath, etc. And then 30 seconds later being granted a divorce without the other party anywhere in sight.

Don't let her scare you. She doesn't understand how things work here.

thanks for the advice I'm Canadian and from the Province of Quebec which has its own laws regarding divorce. Regardless, I can still file for divorce on my own in front of a judge if I must. All I need is proof of infidelity (which I got) or abuse (I saved all the crazy texts she has been sending me) or of mariage breakdown (which I have too).

It is good to talk to other people who understand what  it is like to deal with an SO wBPD. Funny enough, spoke to two close friends and they said I should try to pretend to be her friend, then get her to sign the divorce paper and then block her out.

They just dont understand how it works with people wBPD. That'd be the "easy" normal way. I know I cant do that and have to remain firm on the NC as much as possible if I ever want her out of my life at one point (which I do, I so much do).