Unringing the bell

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

A few recent threads have used the phrase "I can't un-ring that bell"... .

Totally understand it, we've all said things we didn't mean and wish we didn't, but what's done is done.

My question is, how do you address that with your pwBPD?

So for example, before I learned what BPD is, one night I got fed up with my w's body image.  She's hot, I've told her countless times she has the body of a teen-ager, she's my "tiny-dancer"... .etc.  However, what "society tells her" (i.e. she's not attractive because she's not large-chested) is different than what I tell her ("damn, she's hot".

I got fed up and literally (i.e. really literally, not figuratively... .) told her "I've told you 100's times you're hot, but you refuse to listen to me... .watch, I'll tell you you're not hot and you'll choose to remember this conversation instead of the 100's of times you've ignored what I say... .OK, you're not hot... .you could be, but your chest is too small... ."

Even though I had a glimmer of what was to come, it's been years now and of course the only conversation she refers to is when I said she wasn't hot... .all context for the conversation is lost, I once said it so I don't think she's attractive.

Over time I think she truly believes I started a conversation one day by walking into the room and saying "Just so you know... .you're not hot."  Anything said now is ignored because it conflicts with what I said that day.

So is the only option when dealing with the bell once rung to enforce a boundary that we won't talk about that anymore

[Oooohm]

GREAT QUESTION !

In my experience they hold the "negative" as who they are as a person. Without it they are lost and don't know who they are. But at the same time without being able to justify the "negative" from an outside source they feel there must be something wrong with them for thinking that way.

So... .you can tell them a thousand times a "Positive" which re-enforces "there is something wrong with me".

Until... .that day... .  we slip... .  "Ring the Bell"... .  and now they are justified !

My experience: Can't un-ring the bell... .but you can change her perception of what you said. IE (Carefully !) Point to famous woman (NOT anybody you or her knows personally) with similar body types as her and say "Wow she's cute... .she looks like you." 

Maybe... .?

[Hmcbart]

There is not enough space to right how many times I've done this and have had to hear about for years. My house sounds like a church on Sunday morning with all the bells I wish I could un-ring!

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

There is not enough space to right how many times I've done this and have had to hear about for years. My house sounds like a church on Sunday morning with all the bells I wish I could un-ring!

Not often I LOL here... .that this one did it.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

My experience: Can't un-ring the bell... .but you can change her perception of what you said. IE (Carefully !) Point to famous woman (NOT anybody you or her knows personally) with similar body types as her and say "Wow she's cute... .she looks like you." 

Maybe... .?

"She's cute?  Why don't you go after her?"

"If she would make you happier, go for it."

"She may look like me but she's got better [X]"

"If you think she's cute what can I give you that she can't"

"Why are you looking at her when you can look at me?"

"She probably has a career too, go for it"

"Why are you looking at her?  What am I not providing?"

That's just the quick list... .all things I've heard even without saying someone else is cute... .

[Notwendy]

Gentlemen... .


Never , never make a negative comment about her appearance. I don't care if she is BPD, or not, if she looks like Beyonce or not. Probably the main difference is that a pw BPD might ask you so many times that it drives you nuts and won't remember the times you said it as much. Every woman I know is hypercritical to herself about her looks. Maybe it's a matter of degree with someone with BPD


Do not fall for the questions about appearance, ever... .

Do not admire someone else... .ever.

One word that does not belong in your vocabulary: FAT

Just forget that word.  

If you ring that bell, you will not be in church. You will be in HELL!   And you will not get out!



Here is what to say:


Do I look fat?                        No honey you are beautiful

Does this dress make me look fat?   No honey you are beautiful

Do these pants make my butt look big?  No honey you are beautiful

I don't agree with black and white thinking, evers and nevers, but this is one time

[Jessica84]

Telling her "you're not hot" best matches her version of the truth so it sticks with her. Convincing her of how hot you see her will likely lead to arguments. Nuh-uhhhh... .YOU said... .

Apologize for hurting her with that statement (unless you already have - only so much we can apologize for the same bell we rang ages ago!)

Then try to think about it from her side... .wouldn't it suck to feel unattractive all the time? Validate that she feels that way - her feelings are valid even if her perception is off. Heap on the support/empathy... ."I'm sorry you feel that way. That must feel awful... ." Then circle back to your truth: "I think you're beautiful". If she starts to argue, drop it. It'll come up again. When it does, repeat SET = support/empathy/truth.

[Notwendy]

Jessica has the best version of the bell. It sticks because it rings true to her, and she dismisses the compliments because she isn't as confident about them. Even the most attractive woman can be insecure about her looks ( and vice versa).

[Hmcbart]

Sadly I never said anything about how she looks. I made a comment about the actress Sandra Bullock being pretty... .15 years ago.

Other bells, how does dinner taste? It is a little bland and needs some salt... .12 years ago, she didn't cook again for a year.

My personal favorite:

me- I noticed you were cleaning the house and I would like to help.

Her- I know I'm not cleaning fast enough or to your standards, I'm cleaning at a pace that I'm comfortable with.

Me talking to myself- What the heck, I just offered to help.

This was just this past April. I'm still confused on it.

[Jessica84]

LOL I have to agree with Notwendy! When it comes to our appearance, not wise to go there... .We're beautiful even if we're bloated, without makeup, throwing up, red-nosed sniffling, sneezing or covered in measles. Got it? And please, don't compare us to celebrities... .took me a long time to realize even they don't look like that! I think society deliberately tries to make us feel like crap so they can peddle their garbage products on us. For women with BPD (who have a confused sense of self) this deeply-ingrained message to make us feel "not good enough" is far more amplified.

[Oooohm]

My experience: Can't un-ring the bell... .but you can change her perception of what you said. IE (Carefully !) Point to famous woman (NOT anybody you or her knows personally) with similar body types as her and say "Wow she's cute... .she looks like you." 

Maybe... .?

"She's cute?  Why don't you go after her?"

"If she would make you happier, go for it."

"She may look like me but she's got better [X]"

"If you think she's cute what can I give you that she can't"

"Why are you looking at her when you can look at me?"

"She probably has a career too, go for it"

"Why are you looking at her?  What am I not providing?"

That's just the quick list... .all things I've heard even without saying someone else is cute... .

LMFAO !   Been there... .

I've found if you point at "normal" enough times (without making it about her) that she eventually "Gets it" or at least starts "emulating" it.

Guess it didn't translate very well into this subject... .whoops.

@NotWendy,

We block heads do eventually figure this out... .  There is hope for us. 

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Gentlemen... .

Never , never make a negative comment about her appearance. I don't care if she is BPD, or not, if she looks like Beyonce or not. Probably the main difference is that a pw BPD might ask you so many times that it drives you nuts and won't remember the times you said it as much. Every woman I know is hypercritical to herself about her looks. Maybe it's a matter of degree with someone with BPD

Do not fall for the questions about appearance, ever... .

Do not admire someone else... .ever.

One word that does not belong in your vocabulary: FAT

Just forget that word.  

If you ring that bell, you will not be in church. You will be in HELL!   And you will not get out!

Here is what to say:

Do I look fat?                        No honey you are beautiful

Does this dress make me look fat?   No honey you are beautiful

Do these pants make my butt look big?  No honey you are beautiful

I don't agree with black and white thinking, evers and nevers, but this is one time

Read the Subject... .No one said this is what we should say.

I could come up with a list of "don't" regarding husbands... .However if you posted "I told my husband a hundred times I don't care how much money you make, but one time I said boy I wish we could afford a nicer house like the Jones"... .

Let five years go by and you ask the board, "I said, once, that I wish he made enough to keep up with the Jones... .and he keeps bring it up... .

The topic is un-ringing the bell... .what to do after you say something stupid that pwBPD refuses to let go.

[Jessica84]

I sort of unrang a bell this weekend... .I wouldn't advise it, but it worked this time... .

I got the silent treatment Saturday night for ringing the wrong bell. He raged, I tried SET then let it go, he went into silent pout mode, I left. He called super-emotional Sunday morning (angry/sad/indecisive/angry again). I apologized for upsetting him. Validated his feelings. Validated some more. He kept telling me what an awful person I am. Finally I lost my patience with him and yelled "For the love of God, I have to hear every unfiltered word that flies out of your mouth all the friggin time and I forgive you. Surely you can forgive this one slip from me!"

To my surprise... .he blurted out laughing. Then said "That's true! You're right! I am an a$$hole! So... .you wanna get lunch?"

 

He was giddy and upbeat the rest of the day. If I knew how or why that worked, I'd tell you. But I'm not fluent in BPD-speak.

[Oooohm]

The topic is un-ringing the bell... .what to do after you say something stupid that pwBPD refuses to let go.

Validate ?  SET ?   Anybody?

Has anything worked? Does ANYTHING ever WORK ? 

Examples PLEASE !

[Oooohm]

I sort of unrang a bell this weekend... .I wouldn't advise it, but it worked this time... .

I got the silent treatment Saturday night for ringing the wrong bell. He raged, I tried SET then let it go, he went into silent pout mode, I left. He called super-emotional Sunday morning (angry/sad/indecisive/angry again). I apologized for upsetting him. Validated his feelings. Validated some more. He kept telling me what an awful person I am. Finally I lost my patience with him and yelled "For the love of God, I have to hear every unfiltered word that flies out of your mouth all the friggin time and I forgive you. Surely you can forgive this one slip from me!"

To my surprise... .he blurted out laughing. Then said "That's true! You're right! I am an a$$hole! So... .you wanna get lunch?"

 

He was giddy and upbeat the rest of the day. If I knew how or why that worked, I'd tell you. But I'm not fluent in BPD-speak.

Cross posted with you.

Interesting.

Anyone else?

[Notwendy]

I was trying to be funny about a sore subject.

Actually, I could see my H here asking that same question, and Jessica has the answer. The bells that sting the most are the ones that hit us in a sensitive place, the ones that ring true for us, BPD or not. However, I think with BPD it must hurt all the more.

Many of us here feel we can't confront them directly, and so occasionally these zingers go out. Also, admittedly, the bells get rung during times of emotional stress and anger.

There are a few ways I look at this if my bell is rung. One is, that if it hurts, it rings true so perhaps it is something I need to work on, either correcting why it may be true or my own insecurity.  If it doesn't ring true then it is easier to forget.


Sometimes my H will say it to prove himself right. Sometimes it's about winning the fight, so he will say anything to win. One way to win is to let a really mean zinger fly and it shuts me up right there.

So how would he unring the bell? By apologizing, sincerely. ( albeit that is not easy to do- he sees it as groveling, but it would work wonders. As Jessica says- validate the feeling not the fact -" I am sorry I hurt your feelings, I really believe you are hot. I know I said it under stress, but I didn't mean it"

My H will tell me he can't unring the bell, but that is often because he expects me to know he didn't mean it and forget about it, which eventually I just have to get over it, but it would be faster if he apologized.

And be consistent. It is hard to know what to believe when complimented after being zinged. Remember also black and white thinking. If she's hot, she's hot, but if not, then she's fat ugly worthless gross... .

And finally, some self examination about our own resentments, which might be the source of those bells. My H will let me know if I have rung his bell, but since he tends to get angry when that happens, he lets out more of them at me. I tend to cry.

I'm trying to show the receiver's point of view, but I can give then too. How do I unring the bell? The same way, with a sincere apology, and attempting to see these bells the way he hears them. Some can be more hurtful than I intended.

[Notwendy]

I also focused on the receiving end for a reason- understanding- because, that is all you can do on your end. If someone chooses to hang on to the hurt and not let it go- after you have apologized, there isn't anything you can do about it.

I don't think it is productive to hold on to a grudge, but if your partner chooses to do so, that is their choice, but I hope that some insight into the issue will make an apology a effective as possible.

[Jessica84]

Try not to get flustered every time she brings up your big sin. Try letting it go yourself... .Forgive yourself so it no longer holds any power over you. Over time, she'll stop getting the payoff from rubbing your nose in it. Your reaction right now has a twofold payoff for her: 1) by bringing it up, she invokes shame or frustration in you. Now you're as upset as she is (she feels less alone) and 2) you very likely overcompensate for your original mistake by singing her extra adoring praises (validation).

That's not to say to not validate her feelings. But you can do that without jumping into the chaos with her. Spare yourself the frustration of being reminded what you did. Do this by not taking it personal - remind yourself instead she's not like this because of what you said. She'd need validation even if you never said the hurtful thing in the first place. Give her the validation, spare yourself the drama.

[Oooohm]

@Jessica84,

New thread Idea: " When we have used all the tools, Loose it, and it still works out OK... .Why? "

It's happened to me several times also... . weird. Don't know why she seems to "snap out of it".

Try not to get flustered every time she brings up your big sin. Try letting it go yourself... .Forgive yourself so it no longer holds any power over you. Over time, she'll stop getting the payoff from rubbing your nose in it. Your reaction right now has a twofold payoff for her: 1) by bringing it up, she invokes shame or frustration in you. Now you're as upset as she is (she feels less alone) and 2) you very likely overcompensate for your original mistake by singing her extra adoring praises (validation).

That's not to say to not validate her feelings. But you can do that without jumping into the chaos with her. Spare yourself the frustration of being reminded what you did. Do this by not taking it personal - remind yourself instead she's not like this because of what you said. She'd need validation even if you never said the hurtful thing in the first place. Give her the validation, spare yourself the drama.

Insightful... .excellent.

@NotWendy

I've developed an "Apology Phobia" over the years with regards to my wife.  I'll give you an example:

Me: "Honey I can't find my keys"

Her: "I didn't move them"

Me: "I didn't say you moved them... .Oh here they are."

Her: "You need to apologize"

Me: "For what?

Her: "For saying I moved your keys... .apologize !"

Etc. Etc. times a thousand over the years. Makes it tough to apologize sincerely when warranted if you had to do it several times a day earlier in the relationship.  Working on it thou.

[Notwendy]

That BPD filter can really twist things into an insult.

I think it is good to not apologize or defend what isn't true and also apologize for what is.

In the long run, an apology helps us. Many religious traditions and the 12 steps include some form of apology as it clears our own conscience and allows us to move on. They also include the idea of letting go of resentments and forgiveness, but if the other person can't do that, then we can't do much about that. That ultimately hurts them.

That key scenario is pretty wild, I can believe it though.

My mother still tells stories about me as a kid. She will remind me of the time I threw up on her carpet. She believes I did it on purpose. She will go on about how I walked in HER room, in the middle of the night, to wake HER up and to throw up on HER carpet.

I was two years old. I probably woke up with a tummy ache and went crying for my mom, like any two year old. But if she wants to believe that somehow I did it on purpose, I can't change that.

But if I do hurt her feelings, intentionally or not, I can also apologize.

[Jessica84]

I agree. A sincere apology goes a long way. It requires empathy and understanding of when one is warranted, and exactly what to apologize for. I'm quick to apologize once I realize I've hurt someone's feelings. But I've also developed a bit of "Apology phobia" myself. Especially when my punishment doesn't fit my so-called crime. Or he has distorted the facts in his head. I can apologize for upsetting him, but not for things I never actually said, did, thought or felt!

And he's so weirdly superstitious. When I first met him he would make me bite my tongue... .literally! He wanted to see my teeth clamp down on my tongue - to him, this somehow made my words disappear? It was creepy, humiliating and dismissive. But eventually I got over that. Chalked it up to one of his weird quirks and his way of letting me "unring the bell". Now I do it cheerfully. Chomp-chomp then we're right back to a good place... .as long as what I said was just a foot-in-mouth slip, something he took the wrong way, or something trivial. Whatever keeps him stable... .There's only one time when I refused and it escalated quickly. I didn't care. I meant what I said and would not be told to "eat" my words. It's all about choosing our battles, I suppose... .

[tortuga]

I learned, eventually, to just stay the h--l away from that bell.

I did frequently apologize, and try to explain myself.  If for no other reason, than to model for my kids what normal adult behavior looks like.  When we're alone, I don't bother with things that have no point.

[Hmcbart]

I learned, eventually, to just stay the h--l away from that bell.

I did frequently apologize, and try to explain myself.  If for no other reason, than to model for my kids what normal adult behavior looks like.  When we're alone, I don't bother with things that have no point.

I like this approach. It isn't worth much more than a sincere apology and move on with most of the "bells". It's almost not worth it when your painted black anyway. I think I apologize if it's my fault just for my own clear conscious. I know I'll never hear it from her so at least I feel better.

But Ooohm--ditto on the key thing, or anything else I can't find. If I can't find it in my own, she's the last person I will ask for help anymore, I'm not a kid and don't need to be treated that way by someone who frequently loses her stuff and needs help finding it.

[123Phoebe]

I sort of unrang a bell this weekend... .I wouldn't advise it, but it worked this time... .

Finally I lost my patience with him and yelled "For the love of God, I have to hear every unfiltered word that flies out of your mouth all the friggin time and I forgive you. Surely you can forgive this one slip from me!"

To my surprise... .he blurted out laughing. Then said "That's true! You're right! I am an a$$hole! So... .you wanna get lunch?"

 

He was giddy and upbeat the rest of the day. If I knew how or why that worked, I'd tell you. But I'm not fluent in BPD-speak.

Hey Jessica84, fwiw I don't think having to be fluent in BPD-speak has anything at all to do with it, quite the contrary really... .  You were being your authentic self and letting it fly, facing it head-on, telling your truth, NO FEAR!

It was like enough already, let's be real here... .

Hope you enjoyed a great lunch!

[waverider]

The problem is they believe you have carried out a surgical strike into their weak spot. if you have done it once they are afraid you can, and probably will, do it again.

The rest of the reassurances are merely attempts to distract from your real thoughts. This one statement has invalidated everything else you may have said or will say.

pwBPD do not keep anything in context. Their memories are like a whole bunch of cut out quotes and snapshots, to be pulled out and reassembled as appropriate to validate the thought of the moment

[Notwendy]

Surgical strikes is a good word for it.

I wonder how these things work in a marriage without BPD? At some level they have to be hurtful. People can say things in anger, but in general, how long does the hurt last? I can see where someone with BPD might distort facts and hang on to memories/pull them out in certain situations out of context, but it could be related to how hurtful is the surgical strike.

Also in context, these "strikes" are carried out in anger and exasperation, where they may carry more punch than if said somewhere else, as their intent can be to be hurtful.

Bells that ring loud for me and my H touch on areas where we were criticized in the past. Since these are areas where we have childhood patterns and hurts, a criticism in that area feels more hurtful than perhaps it is intended, and it would have more power than a compliment.

One of our tasks of self growth is to see these hurts in context of our other issues, but that isn't easy for many people, probably including people with BPD. If you rang a bell, it is possible that that bell was rung many times over long before you did. You might not be able to unring it entirely.

Maybe it would be better to work at being more aware of this and not do them as much. Yes, we are human, - we are going to slip up-but hurtful comments in anger are something perhaps we can work on trying not to do as they aren't really going to benefit anyone in any relationship.

[waverider]

Surgical strikes is a good word for it.

I wonder how these things work in a marriage without BPD? At some level they have to be hurtful. People can say things in anger, but in general, how long does the hurt last? I can see where someone with BPD might distort facts and hang on to memories/pull them out in certain situations out of context, but it could be related to how hurtful is the surgical strike.

Also in context, these "strikes" are carried out in anger and exasperation, where they may carry more punch than if said somewhere else, as their intent can be to be hurtful.

Bells that ring loud for me and my H touch on areas where we were criticized in the past. Since these are areas where we have childhood patterns and hurts, a criticism in that area feels more hurtful than perhaps it is intended, and it would have more power than a compliment.

One of our tasks of self growth is to see these hurts in context of our other issues, but that isn't easy for many people, probably including people with BPD. If you rang a bell, it is possible that that bell was rung many times over long before you did. You might not be able to unring it entirely.

Maybe it would be better to work at being more aware of this and not do them as much. Yes, we are human, - we are going to slip up-but hurtful comments in anger are something perhaps we can work on trying not to do as they aren't really going to benefit anyone in any relationship.

Actually I think for a non they hurt more, and can build resentment. However for a pwBPD, it can blow over quick, but it is locked in there and can be pulled out for effect and reinforce subsequent issues with equal intensity. On/off switch rather than a fade slider. So when its on its as though it just happened. For a non it simmers quietly in the background until it eventually fades, unless it happens again (which is often the case when dealing with a pwBPD)

[Notwendy]

Well that's a relief because some of the things my H has said have been hurtful, and then he's the one saying that he can't unring that bell with me. However, a sincere apology with effort not to say them would unring it for me. One problem I have with hearing opposites ( Jeckyl/Hyde) is not knowing which one is true. Sadly, when an effort is made, the impact is diminished because of that.

They are also reinforced by actions. When H painted me black, he was not affectionate to me. Now, he has made some significant effort to change that, which I give him credit for, but if he does say he's attracted to me, that uncertainty remains. Then he accuses me of not letting him unring that bell.

To some extent, I think it goes both ways with ringing the bell. I am paying more attention to when he rings the mother bell though, and working through that one on my own. He's not responsible for that.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

The problem is they believe you have carried out a surgical strike into their weak spot. if you have done it once they are afraid you can, and probably will, do it again.

The rest of the reassurances are merely attempts to distract from your real thoughts. This one statement has invalidated everything else you may have said or will say.

pwBPD do not keep anything in context. Their memories are like a whole bunch of cut out quotes and snapshots, to be pulled out and reassembled as appropriate to validate the thought of the moment

Wow, love the last statement... .It's tough to keep in mind when things get stressful.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Well that's a relief because some of the things my H has said have been hurtful, and then he's the one saying that he can't unring that bell with me. However, a sincere apology with effort not to say them would unring it for me. One problem I have with hearing opposites ( Jeckyl/Hyde) is not knowing which one is true. Sadly, when an effort is made, the impact is diminished because of that.

They are also reinforced by actions. When H painted me black, he was not affectionate to me. Now, he has made some significant effort to change that, which I give him credit for, but if he does say he's attracted to me, that uncertainty remains. Then he accuses me of not letting him unring that bell.

Back when my uBPDw & I got married we showered together on our honeymoon (hopefully not TMI... .)  When we got back into the day to day grind she told me I could wake up earlier on days I wanted to shower together... .partly from habit and with a little bit of insight (although not knowing about BPD) I set my alarm earlier every day.  Now it's gotten to the point where when I wash her back I wash her butt twice and her breast once (really sorry about the details... .).  In her mind if I ever cut it short then I'm upset about something, and if I increase it then that's the new norm going forward.

So now 5+ years later any morning I'm not sufficiently excited about showering with her leads to the "you don't find me attractive" conversation.

In the BPD mind, I'm not being consistent because some mornings I'm more playful/excited/joking than others.  There's no context, no allowance for variation... .doesn't matter if we got 3 hours sleep because of an arguement.  

So her complaint is the same as yours... .my behavior is inconsistent with my finding her attractive.  If it didn't happen in the last 30 seconds then it never happened... .