If The Other Parent Babysits The Children

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

S5, D3, joint physical and legal custody. Our post-split r/s is as "cooperative colleagues."

We've recently had a major family crisis this past week, and I'll summarize that after my question, which is:

Their mom is cutting down work hours by choice. We have to scramble in the next week because the children can't go back to her mom's (grandma's) home, the person who used to watch the kids. So, my Ex has offered to watch them a couple of days per week and has asked if I would be willing to take the money I would have paid her mom (since we share childcare expenses equally according to the stipulation) and pay it to her.

Does this sound like a lever she could use to file for more custody (and child support)?

Since she would be watching the kids on some of my days, but the custody order is clear.  This is not her motivation, the story is this:

On Feb. 27th, I noticed that D3's (then D2) genitals were pretty red. She was transitioning out of diapers at this point, so this was not unreasonable if her diaper wasn't changed enough during the day. I put some diaper cream on the affected area (outside, labia, I guess) and she whined, "ow, Daddy, Uncle16 touched my butt!" She was referring to her 15/16 yo uncle, my Ex's youngest brother. She didn't elaborate. I wrote it down (and through all which happened last week, no professional could give me an affirmative on if I would have been committing a crime if I had photo-documented it, so of course I didn't!).

I started inviting U16 out with us on some of my Saturday's with the kids to go hiking. Part of it was to observe his r/s with the kids, and part of it was because I like the guy, and feel that he's a neglected child.

Ex had the kids last weekend. I got them back Monday night, no problems. Tuesday night, after bath time, I noticed that D3's genitals were red again.   I don't see why since she's been out of diapers in the daytime for a few months. I put the cream on the outside and again, she said, "U16 touched my butt!" and whined. I said, "I'm sorry Baby, it will feel better in the morning." I turned to S5, and said, "what is D3 talking about?" He replied, "U16 touched D3's butt." I asked, "where did this happen?" He said, "in the living room." I asked, "where was grandma?" He said, "at the store." Here is where I started freaking out.

After the kids had a jolly time of locking me out of my bedroom where they use the master bathroom to brush their teeth, laughing at me and mocking me from behind the door, they let me in after I walked away and stopped giving them attention.

I took them into the bathroom to make sure they finished and said, "S5, when U16 touched D3's butt, what did he touch it with?" He turned away, and put his hand out and said, "He poked her with his fingers like this," making a poking motion. My mind reeled. I put a call into the T and left a message detailing the story.

The next morning, after dropping the kids off at school, D3 wanted to go to grandma's house, where she goes normally. I thought nothing of it, waiting for the call back. I got the message when I was at work having lunch the next day. The message was shocking. My lunch buddy saw the look on my face and said, "oh, no." The T basically said that my daughter was being molested, it was a crime, a felony, and that he needed to hear back from me by that evening that I had called CPS, the cops, or both, and that it was better for a number of reasons that I do it rather than him. I knew he was a mandatory reporter, and this would relieve me of my doubts.

So after the after noon at the police station, a knot in my stomach the whole time, they sent me home. They were going to go to my Ex's house first to conduct interviews, but she had a night class, unknown to me, and all of the cops converged at her parents' home where everybody was. My ex called me, distraught. I was going to reject the call, but I thought I owed it to her since I didn't alert her of this (the cops told me not to).

I explained what I did above, and she was understandably crying. I get that. She called back 3.5 hours later, after I had just fallen asleep. She was still upset with me that I didn't come to her first, and I explained why, that her family has a history of covering up past domestic violence. My Ex gets that. She told her mom (who by my reading the DV web page by my police department, may have committed a crime in the past by letting her children witness DV and not reporting it, even if husband was the perp). Doesn't matter. She "betrayed" the family by "siding" with me. Here they are foolish as they don't realize that she may have lost temporary custody if she resisted the investigation. Instead:

"What if it's Turkish who is molesting D3?"

"He's just doing this to get back at you because you're getting married!" (to her affair partner, whom I've made it clear to both my Ex and him that he needs to be on board with knowing everything since he is moving in to her home soon and is a part of the kids' lives)

From her older brother (uncle 38), "that mother-fffing mother fffer... ."etc... .,"This is your fault, because you're always defending Turkish and saying what I great dad he is!"

My T said that things like this are like shining a flashlight into the darkness to push it back. What has been revealed by this metaphorical flashlight:

Eldest Uncle, 38 (so uBPD that everyone in the family knows it without calling it "BPD", just "anger problems" and "emotional instability", raised his hand to smack S5 last year, but didn't touch him. My Ex confronted him and made it clear that he was never to touch our children. I  found out Friday night that earlier in the day, she found out that U38 had recently spanked S5; he told their mom this and she told my Ex. I found this out because after having an anxiety attack because I took back the kids, my Ex and her fiancee came over to my home, a breach of boundaries, but I talked to them through her car window on the street, calmed her down. Poor fiancee was shell-shocked, he didn't know what to do, and sat there with a thousand-yard stare, periodically blowing out his cheeks. At the end, he said, "why do I think that you're the only one handling all of this like an adult?" I just gave him a lop-sided grin.

U38 says he hates his sister, and will sue both she and I after all this is over for what I/we did to their family. Go for it partner. You admitted to touching our son in anger, and we are forbidden by the custody stipulation from spanking them, even it it's legal under CA law.

Last year, S then 4 told his mom that U15/16 "touched my butt." She confronted her brother, who of course denied it. He's never said anything to me about it. She never told me this... .nor when she confronted her 38 year old brother about him raising his hand in anger to strike S5.

Lucky for me (and of course the kids), both kids told their mom exactly what they told me. S5 even made the poking motion. The kids, however, only told CPS in separate interviews that U16 "puts us on time outs." Interesting... .which is why they are on the verge of closing the case, but they told her they can reopen it at any time. The bottom line, however, is that the kids cannot go back to that home while the "suspect" is there. I know that that means, but not really. Erring on the side of safety? The two witnesses perjured themselves told CPS different things than they told us. Can't do anything further, and I understand that. My Ex and I need to come up with a plan to keep the kids safe.

This is all up in the air still. The inintial exam showed that D3 has two holes in her hymen, but that they weren't sure if they were natural, or induced. She has an appointment with a specialist tomorrow.

So it's a big mess right now, and sometimes I think how it would have gone if I had just gone to my Ex, and we confronted him and established boundaries at that house. Then again... .the reactions may have been similar, and we may have broken the law by not reporting it right away.

The cops, nor CPS has called me at all (which is why I was nervous for the first few days, thinking I was going to get arrested) yet. I realize that I will be under scrutiny, and that my Ex's anxieties are triggered more now. I really wonder how all this can be initiated by the "testimony" of a 3 and 5 year old, but apparently, I followed the law, even if it was implied I did something wrong by not reporting it the night I saw what I saw, and heard what I heard. The call to the T, documenting that I did something, helped alleviate the initial anger of the cop at me. How low is the bar?

[Turkish]

S5, D3, joint physical and legal custody. Our post-split r/s is as "cooperative colleagues."

We've recently had a major family crisis this past week, and I'll summarize that after my question, which is:

Their mom is cutting down work hours by choice. We have to scramble in the next week because the children can't go back to her mom's (grandma's) home, the person who used to watch the kids. So, my Ex has offered to watch them a couple of days per week and has asked if I would be willing to take the money I would have paid her mom (since we share childcare expenses equally according to the stipulation) and pay it to her.

Does this sound like a lever she could use to file for more custody (and child support)?

Since she would be watching the kids on some of my days, but the custody order is clear.  This is not her motivation, the story is this:

On Feb. 27th, I noticed that D3's (then D2) genitals were pretty red. She was transitioning out of diapers at this point, so this was not unreasonable if her diaper wasn't changed enough during the day. I put some diaper cream on the affected area (outside, labia, I guess) and she whined, "ow, Daddy, Uncle16 touched my butt!" She was referring to her 15/16 yo uncle, my Ex's youngest brother. She didn't elaborate. I wrote it down (and through all which happened last week, no professional could give me an affirmative on if I would have been committing a crime if I had photo-documented it, so of course I didn't!).

I started inviting U16 out with us on some of my Saturday's with the kids to go hiking. Part of it was to observe his r/s with the kids, and part of it was because I like the guy, and feel that he's a neglected child.

Ex had the kids last weekend. I got them back Monday night, no problems. Tuesday night, after bath time, I noticed that D3's genitals were red again.   I don't see why since she's been out of diapers in the daytime for a few months. I put the cream on the outside and again, she said, "U16 touched my butt!" and whined. I said, "I'm sorry Baby, it will feel better in the morning." I turned to S5, and said, "what is D3 talking about?" He replied, "U16 touched D3's butt." I asked, "where did this happen?" He said, "in the living room." I asked, "where was grandma?" He said, "at the store." Here is where I started freaking out.

After the kids had a jolly time of locking me out of my bedroom where they use the master bathroom to brush their teeth, laughing at me and mocking me from behind the door, they let me in after I walked away and stopped giving them attention.

I took them into the bathroom to make sure they finished and said, "S5, when U16 touched D3's butt, what did he touch it with?" He turned away, and put his hand out and said, "He poked her with his fingers like this," making a poking motion. My mind reeled. I put a call into the T and left a message detailing the story.

The next morning, after dropping the kids off at school, D3 wanted to go to grandma's house, where she goes normally. I thought nothing of it, waiting for the call back. I got the message when I was at work having lunch the next day. The message was shocking. My lunch buddy saw the look on my face and said, "oh, no." The T basically said that my daughter was being molested, it was a crime, a felony, and that he needed to hear back from me by that evening that I had called CPS, the cops, or both, and that it was better for a number of reasons that I do it rather than him. I knew he was a mandatory reporter, and this would relieve me of my doubts.

So after the after noon at the police station, a knot in my stomach the whole time, they sent me home. They were going to go to my Ex's house first to conduct interviews, but she had a night class, unknown to me, and all of the cops converged at her parents' home where everybody was. My ex called me, distraught. I was going to reject the call, but I thought I owed it to her since I didn't alert her of this (the cops told me not to).

I explained what I did above, and she was understandably crying. I get that. She called back 3.5 hours later, after I had just fallen asleep. She was still upset with me that I didn't come to her first, and I explained why, that her family has a history of covering up past domestic violence. My Ex gets that. She told her mom (who by my reading the DV web page by my police department, may have committed a crime in the past by letting her children witness DV and not reporting it, even if husband was the perp). Doesn't matter. She "betrayed" the family by "siding" with me. Here they are foolish as they don't realize that she may have lost temporary custody if she resisted the investigation. Instead:

"What if it's Turkish who is molesting D3?"

"He's just doing this to get back at you because you're getting married!" (to her affair partner, whom I've made it clear to both my Ex and him that he needs to be on board with knowing everything since he is moving in to her home soon and is a part of the kids' lives)

From her older brother (uncle 38), "that mother-fffing mother fffer... ."etc... .,"This is your fault, because you're always defending Turkish and saying what I great dad he is!"

My T said that things like this are like shining a flashlight into the darkness to push it back. What has been revealed by this metaphorical flashlight:

Eldest Uncle, 38 (so uBPD that everyone in the family knows it without calling it "BPD", just "anger problems" and "emotional instability", raised his hand to smack S5 last year, but didn't touch him. My Ex confronted him and made it clear that he was never to touch our children. I  found out Friday night that earlier in the day, she found out that U38 had recently spanked S5; he told their mom this and she told my Ex. I found this out because after having an anxiety attack because I took back the kids, my Ex and her fiancee came over to my home, a breach of boundaries, but I talked to them through her car window on the street, calmed her down. Poor fiancee was shell-shocked, he didn't know what to do, and sat there with a thousand-yard stare, periodically blowing out his cheeks. At the end, he said, "why do I think that you're the only one handling all of this like an adult?" I just gave him a lop-sided grin.

U38 says he hates his sister, and will sue both she and I after all this is over for what I/we did to their family. Go for it partner. You admitted to touching our son in anger, and we are forbidden by the custody stipulation from spanking them, even it it's legal under CA law.

Last year, S then 4 told his mom that U15/16 "touched my butt." She confronted her brother, who of course denied it. He's never said anything to me about it. She never told me this... .nor when she confronted her 38 year old brother about him raising his hand in anger to strike S5.

Lucky for me (and of course the kids), both kids told their mom exactly what they told me. S5 even made the poking motion. The kids, however, only told CPS in separate interviews that U16 "puts us on time outs." Interesting... .which is why they are on the verge of closing the case, but they told her they can reopen it at any time. The bottom line, however, is that the kids cannot go back to that home while the "suspect" is there. I know that that means, but not really. Erring on the side of safety? The two witnesses perjured themselves told CPS different things than they told us. Can't do anything further, and I understand that. My Ex and I need to come up with a plan to keep the kids safe.

This is all up in the air still. The inintial exam showed that D3 has two holes in her hymen, but that they weren't sure if they were natural, or induced. She has an appointment with a specialist tomorrow.

So it's a big mess right now, and sometimes I think how it would have gone if I had just gone to my Ex, and we confronted him and established boundaries at that house. Then again... .the reactions may have been similar, and we may have broken the law by not reporting it right away.

The cops, nor CPS has called me at all (which is why I was nervous for the first few days, thinking I was going to get arrested) yet. I realize that I will be under scrutiny, and that my Ex's anxieties are triggered more now. I really wonder how all this can be initiated by the "testimony" of a 3 and 5 year old, but apparently, I followed the law, even if it was implied I did something wrong by not reporting it the night I saw what I saw, and heard what I heard. The call to the T, documenting that I did something, helped alleviate the initial anger of the cop at me. How low is the bar?

[GaGrl]

What level of trust do you have in your ex that none of her time with he children would ever be spent at her mother's house? Or that she might attest to minimize the children's memories?

[rarsweet]

I am so sorry for your little girl. I imagine you must ibe going crazy right now. I think you are doing so well thinking before you act. Is your d going to see a child psychologist also? Is there a restraining order now in regards to younger uncle? Do you think ex would allow contact between your kiddos and that uncle secretly? If you have any doubt of that it is understandable to be against any opportunity for that to happen. Do you know if the younger uncle has been abused? Does he have any other troubled behavior? Actually your oldest might see a psychologist also if he has witnessed anything. Poor babies. Hearts breaking for you guys. As to paying your ex, if you guys share cost of babysitters, if she had kiddos instead of a sitter she is already making out better financially because she would be saving on her share. You would still be paying for(100%) childcare, she would save her half and make money, get more time with the kids, and who knows what could happen.

[Turkish]

What level of trust do you have in your ex that none of her time with he children would ever be spent at her mother's house? Or that she might attest to minimize the children's memories?

Right now, the kids aren't allowed there when her brother (U16) is there. I don't have visibility on how to proceed with this, but talking to the T and input from the social worker assigned to the case will help. As of right now, it's going to be hardly any time at all. Her whole family (except her younger sister who lives in another state, and U25, who has always been calm and stable) has painted my Ex black for not "siding" with them. Part of this is a cultural thing.

All in all, the kids aren't traumatized, which is what made this so confusing for me. If the kids' mom baby-sits, it will be time with my her at her apartment, or out and about. Grandma kept saying "I want S3 to tell me!" Part of this might be hidden guilt that it happened in her home. I don't blame her at all, though the reactions of her family are expected. Thankfully, after my Ex explained things, her out of state little sis said "I think I would have done the same thing," even if it was her littlest brother. I think right now my Ex is so triggered that she won't even let her fiancee spend time alone with the kids.

Your point is taken, though. I don't now trust grandma alone with the kids to not attempt to put things into their heads. Luckily, the kids are primarily English speaking, and grandma doesn't speak English. They are still not thinking of the children, and acting like children themselves.

rarsweet: no RO against Uncle. From what I get (and I'm still bugged no one has contacted me), it's up to my Ex and I to keep our kids safe. I have an appointment with the T on Wednesday. My Ex initially asked, "are you going to just get [emotional] support?" No, I'm going because we need professional guidance on how we proceed with this. I can think of a lot of questions and issues on how we need to deal with this, the one far in the future is if the kids ever find out that I did this and they hate me.

As for U16: my heart breaks for him. He is a neglected child, even if he didn't witness the past violence in the home, his dad, as he is to all of the kids, is emotionally unavailable, and everyone knows about the serial cheating. The last affair was a significant trigger in our breakup in 2013. My Ex admitted this is in a way a year after she moved out... .I arm-chair diagnose that U16 suffers from depression. I could see it. That's the other reason why I invited him to start going out with me and the kids. He was infantilized by his mother. I used to think it was uBPD dad, but my Ex's mom is a Hermit with severe anxieties. A lot of these got projected onto my Ex, who knows it. He wants to talk to both his sister and me to let us know that he would never hurt the kids. My Ex wanted us to go talk to him this weekend to "get it out of the way." I said no. She's to enmeshed in this even if she is doing the right thing.

I doubt the kids need to see a T (mine is qualified and experienced, and knows our story very well). That option is always open. I did notice last week that he was undressing D3's doll and trying to hide it from me. Right now I can't see what all is valid or invalid. We have, as of this weekend, stopped bathing them together.

[rarsweet]

Maybe overreacting, but is there any possibility that the behavior of grandma to uncle16 could be more than that? Maybe he is acting out the only way he can? If you have a normal teenage boy and mom doesn't let him be independent enough to explore normal sexuality, appropriate for his age,

[GaGrl]

The other way the T will be helpful is how you explain to your children that what U16 did was not right, is never to happen again, and what they should do or say if ever in a situation like that again. It's difficult to find the balance on what and how to say it with young children.

[Turkish]

Maybe overreacting, but is there any possibility that the behavior of grandma to uncle16 could be more than that? Maybe he is acting out the only way he can? If you have a normal teenage boy and mom doesn't let him be independent enough to explore normal sexuality, appropriate for his age,

Ugh. I could hijack my own thread by talking about her FOO. Didn't learn to ride a bike until 15. At 16, he still isn't allowed to ride a bike to school, though he can walk to it. No overnights at friends' homes (something might happen), etc... .and so on.

I was reading something lnl wrote in another thread:

S13's psychiatrist told me something about BPD that put this in perspective. He said that people with PDs don't see others as separate from them, they are an extension, and their own children are this to the extreme. This is the root of projections, delusions, psychosis, alienation. The BPD parent externalizes what is emotionally happening inside them, and projects it onto the child. Then, from a distance, can be the "protective" parent to the child, who is just an extension of their own broken, victimized, traumatized child.

Not that it makes it forgivable, just that it helped me understand some of the more psychotic things my ex did. S13 is not, was not a separate, real person to N/BPDx. If other people are an extension of you, then of course boundaries would make no sense, and anything that looks even remotely like a boundary must be destroyed.

I realize now that my Ex's family have not only split her, but they have split our children as well. This is so messed up. "BPD Family" indeed!

I will have to think about the babysitting issue and paying my Ex. I'll probably have to write it out to calculate the costs. If we're both equally financial responsible for childcare (even if I pay CS), then how will that work? Keep her happy, don't trigger, but don't make her angry so she comes after me for more $$, especially since I make more now than when we signed the agreement. I can work this. It's really the least of our worries at this point.

The other reason I want the kids' mom at the appointment is that I know the T well enough that he will be blunt: "It happened."

She and her fiancee dropped by my house unannounced Friday night when I had the kids. She was having an anxiety attack because the kids weren't with her. I validated, used the tools, but also was able to say, "the kids aren't responsible for your emotions. Not yours, not mine, and certainly not your family's. We need to protect them from ourselves as well." He was like a deer in the headlights. After 30-40 mins of talking to them on the street and calming her, he looked at me and said, "Why do I feel like you're the only one handling this like and adult here?"

Because I'm detached  

Saturday, I invited her to go hiking with me and the kids. It went well. S5 still wanted to invite Mommy for a sleep-over. I laughed and said, "she has her own house, buddy, even though that sounds nice." .