Havent logged in in awhile

[GaGrl]

That being said, I'm surprised MC is spendthrift Nguyen time on hobbies so soon after a suicide attempt... .seems like there are more substantial topics lined up.

"spendthrift Nguyen"m ?  Where did auto-check get THAT?

... ."spending time"

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Wrongturn1]

Yes; I was on the boards when Max began seeing her and I know what she is capable of at her worst. But I also know that Max married her knowing that she wanted a baby and that he wants one too. They don't have much time, and the more he makes her wait, the worse she will get.

I respectfully and strongly disagree with SweetCharlotte's recent posts on this thread.  

Max: your wife just attacked you physically, attempted to murder herself, completed a mandatory hospital stay, and she seems to have learned nothing from any of this.  She seems to be incapable of taking care of herself and is incapable of being a wife to you... .how anyone could advocate for bringing a child into that situation is beyond my comprehension.  

[Sunfl0wer]

Regarding baby - MC actually suggested last week that we start trying soon?  And this after she KNOWS that two weeks prior W attempted suicide?   I can't believe the irresponsibility of the MC.

Backing plates - HA!  The ones on my old ford wore grooves in them, and then would not adjust evenly.  I welded up the grooves, ground then flush, then a new hardware kit, and all is fine.  The trailer sounds like a fun project.  Arc or MIG welding is actually a lot easier than most people realize.  My biggest limitation is that I only have a 20 amp circuit to use, so I can only use a small welder.  Fine for most of what I want to do, but when one guy wanted me to fix his ditch witch, it was something that I couldn't do.

In my MC... .

If you asked SO and myself what we discussed... .  You would think we both attended different sessions with different partners, as what we experienced was completely contradictory!  I don't think this is unique to BPD or PD, but all pple.  Just like that parable of the blind pple touching the elephant, they are asked to describe an elephant... .each describes a completely different thing.

Is it possible that W was making having a baby seem top priority, therefore, unwilling to shift focus until validated on this... .

Then when MC attempted to validate... .  Maybe said, "hey, let's address this having a baby concern now and dealt with this now, we need to explore this trying to have a baby topic"

Maybe MC was trying to resolve it vs encourage her own belief on the situation? (not necessarily support a specific decision)

Have you asked the MC directly if she is supportive of the two of you having a baby?  Has she explicitly expressed this opinion as being her own?  (If she hasn't... .I would not assume.  If she has... .I would question her qualification as a therapist, this would concern me greatly)

[Cat Familiar]

She is not going to get better while you make her wait to get pregnant.

You married her, so don't make her "audition" to have your child.

The audition is over; she won the part.

Now it's time for you to play your part.

As someone who experienced a fair amount of instability before becoming a mother, I can say that having children was the best thing that ever happened to my mental health.

I became much more responsible; I never lost another job and indeed have had one promotion after another.

There is so much in these few sentences that is unsettling to me. A baby should not be used to "treat" a woman's mental illness. A baby is a human being not an RX.

[Sunfl0wer]

There is so much in these few sentences that is unsettling to me. A baby should not be used to "treat" a woman's mental illness. A baby is a human being not an RX.

I can certainly attest that having me did not help my mom's mental illness.  (She had her first psychotic episode following my birth, this lead to her first hospitalization ever.  The first in a series of many to follow.)

The idea of this does unsettle me much.

I sometimes go over to the family board... .

Express this same idea there... .see how many have had parents that are mentally ill... .see how many feel that their existence was a gift to their parent's illness... .or how they feel about this.

That is a BIG responsibility to put on a baby!

Having structure, purpose, meaning... .  are all things that can help a person to lead an improved life.

There are other paths to get this!

[Notwendy]

I'm with Cat on the statement that a child's high academic achievement is not evidence that there is no issues. In fact, for us kids, it was used as that, and so nobody would believe us if we told them anything was wrong. People would say " it can't be that bad, look how well you turned out" and ignore our emotional needs.

For me too, achieving was a way to get approval from my family, especially my mother who boosted her poor self image with our achievements. Many of my FOO have degrees from some of the top schools in the nation.

I once called social services on behalf of a kid when I heard someone talk about him making suicide threats. I was not the only one who did this as several people had heard this and called social services too. I didn't know much about the reasons or circumstances, or if he was serious, or joking, but I will not ignore this. I know there were many issues at home but I don't know the details. I don't think the kids got any meals outside of school lunches. The kids were at the top of their class. Dad would say " I can't be all that bad, look at how well they are doing".

Some kids will act out in school and underachieve, but others can make school the place where they compensate for what is going on at home. School is a place to get affirmation and validation and support from peers. It is absolutely a good thing when this happens, for the child now and if it gets them to college later. It is indicative that the child is very bright, but it is not always evidence that home is OK.

[Notwendy]

"I wonder if you remember back to your beginnings here when your wife was continuously dysregulating because you were waiting for her to be emotionally stable before committing to marrying her.

I see the same pattern repeating itself within your marriage at the moment - I wrote a reply to you about keeping your w in a double-bind situation then, do you think perhaps this is happening again ?"

I will also call out this amazing statement from Sweetheart. You marry someone as they are, not who they might be if only they ... .get therapy, straighten out, do this do that. These "if only's" imply that you do not accept the person as they are, or the "if only's " may not be achievable. One can not marry someone expecting them to change for the better. Marriage does not do that. Neither do babies.


Max, asking your wife to be emotionally healthy and off all medications in order to have a baby may not be possible. Mental illness is a lifelong issue. She may need the medication to be at her best.

To have or not have children is one of those big issues when considering marriage. If one spouse marries assuming that they will have kids, and then the other spouse says no, then this is devastating to the spouse who wants kids and assumed that they would have kids. However you marry your spouse- and you hope, but can not guarantee that kids will be in picture. Two wrongs don't make a right. If for some reason, having kids would not be good for the kids, or a parent is not able to be a parent, then that is a decision the parents must consider carefully.

[maxsterling]

Max, asking your wife to be emotionally healthy and off all medications in order to have a baby may not be possible. Mental illness is a lifelong issue. She may need the medication to be at her best.

Thanks everyone for their input.  The thing is, prior to the marriage, I feel like I had learned to deal with the deregulations from time to time, she was on NO meds of any kind at that time, complained of pain, but not chronic debilitating pain, and did not consider herself incapable of working or contributing to the household.  At that time, raising healthy children seemed doable, and a goal that could be worked towards.  I felt I understood BPD enough to work with her on her issues. 

We got married earlier than we wanted to mainly for insurance reasons.  Fine.  But soon were the multiple-weekly doctor visits, the pain killers, the Xanax, and the suicide attempt.  To me, that changed something in my brain, and voided the contract.  Last summer, I would have said that she may have bad moods often, but at least the drug use and the suicide attempts were in her past.  Now they aren't.  So, if someone like SweetCharlotte said having a baby then was a good idea, I could see her viewpoint.  But right now? 

[Notwendy]

Max - two wrongs don't make a right.

You can marry with intentions, and then things can change.

Then you have to make the best decision you can with the changes at hand.

Spouses sometimes have to make different decisions. In some cases the marriage lasts and in some it doesn't. A person who gets married to someone who treats them well,  and then finds that their spouse is beating them isn't obligated to stay. This is only one example of changes that can happen.

You can only make the best decision you can with what you know now. But if that decision is no, but your wife wants yes, then unless you stick to that no with all the strength you can muster, then that no may become a yes. I also say this because the sex drive is strong and particularly hard to resist, and you could not use protection in a moment of weakness. In general, I think couples agree together to use, or not use, contraception, but when one wants to use it, and the other doesn't, this seems to me to be more risky for the one who does not wish to conceive.

[KateCat]

Wow, there is so much terrific input on this thread. And the issues are so profound.

"Right now?" Maybe I'm getting mixed up, but some of the recent events in your relationship have been so striking, that I think I remember, in the last six months, the following things:

Highway police chase, with police helicopter in pursuit of Mrs. Sterling

Near-success of suicide attempt

Involuntary hospital stay

Physical battery of maxsterling

Opinion of a mental health professional that Mrs. Sterling would be a good candidate for electroconvulsive therapy

I guess I'm wondering who is in the very best position to help you make decisions from this point. And hoping that that person can have all the information in one place in order to provide guidance.

I'm sorry that you now have this additionally painful task of facing up to the baby issue.  :'(

[formflier]

 

There seems to be an assumption (I could be wrong) that there are two answers to the... .let's have a baby question.

In Max's r/s... .and in general.

Yes... .or no... .

I think max is saying the third answer... .which is a great answer... .I believe.  "Not right now"

So... .I've got 8 kids... .there have been lots of baby discussion over the years... .I've never been totally against one.  But there have been times when I took steps... .BC... .and so did my wife... .to prevent it.  Because the answer was "not right now"

There have been other times where we actively tried... .and other times when we were up for the surprise... .whenever that came.

Surprises are best... .IMO.  Assuming you are in a place where you are ok with getting a surprise.

I'm going to post this... .but not sure if I just went off on a rabbit trail or not.

Hope this makes sense or adds something to the discussion.

Hmmm

Last thought.  If both max and his wife get to the point where they both believe that having a baby is a good idea... .then it's a good idea for them.

I have no sense of Max's wife... .other than what I've gotten through Max.  I do get  good sense of who Max is... .and I think the chances of him changing his mind on this... .without a good reason... .are about zero.

Trying to say that I think Max has good judgement in this area.

FF

[maxsterling]

Well I know she is at T right now.  A good thing.  She's having dinner with AA sponsor this evening - a good thing.  Me going to men's alanon meeting tonight - a good thing.

But today is another - "it's all my fault" day. 

[maxsterling]

Oh, last night in MC, she expressed tons of frustration that she "waits around" for me to notice her and make plans with her.  My feeling is I try, and get unexcited responses, "whatever" or "I guess so".  So I quit trying.  Too many complaints of pain, headaches, etc, and I have learned here to try, and then just do my own thing because I can't fix her. 

But she said last night "maybe that is why I took the OD, to get him to notice me... ."  About the single hardest thing I have ever had to hear.   

And this morning - my fault because she asked me whether she should buy or make a birthday card for her sister.  I mentioned that I like the ones she makes.  An hour later I got the "WHY DID YOU TELL ME TO DO SOMETHING THAT I ALREADY TOLD YOU I DIDN'T WANT TO DO?" response.

[Cat Familiar]

Max,

You say you love your wife, but I wonder what specifically do you love about her?

Your posts let me know that you're an honorable man who bends over backwards trying to make things better for her, but what about your needs to be loved, respected and treated kindly?

Is what you're currently experiencing on a day to day basis with her something that you plan on living with the rest of your life?

If not, what do you imagine changing?

I made the marriage commitment to my first husband and the life I led with him turned into a living hell as the years went on. I saw the "potential" in him and believed that if I just loved him with all my heart, I could turn things around and bring out the "good" side in him, the one that wasn't financially irresponsible, drug-dependent, unfaithful.

The way it played out was that I grew to despise him; I could not forget nor forgive all the past betrayals. Ultimately I felt like I was "waiting to die." Thankfully, after many years and betrayals, I drew a boundary about behaviors I would no longer tolerate: violence and infidelity. And when he smashed through my boundaries, I had to ask myself if I was going to be true to myself or if I was going to go to my grave tolerating those things. I made the correct choice.

My new husband is aggravating and self-absorbed at times, but he is generally kind and well-intentioned. If I hadn't had mental illness in my FOO, I would have been more likely to pick healthy marriage partners, but this one is pretty good, all things considered.

Max, you're not quite forty yet. There's still time for you to meet an emotionally healthy woman and have children if that's what you want. Otherwise, it's a fantasy to believe your wife can make all the changes you wish she could make in a very limited time frame.

Like others have said, you married her the way she is. It's not fair to expect her to be a different person.

[KateCat]

Max,

Like others have said, you married her the way she is. It's not fair to expect her to be a different person.

You tried. She tried. I can't see any way that "not right now" remains a humane approach for you to maintain going forward.

[maxsterling]

Good comments everyone. 

I just spent 45 minutes on the phone with a DV advocate.  She set me up with an appointment Monday afternoon, and that will get me into a group therapy for male victims of domestic violence.

She was very helpful, and gave me resources and phone numbers, and urged my safety is #1.  She said DV situations almost always get worse, and after being hit one time, there will almost always be a next time and it will be worse.  She REALLY stressed my safety, having a safety plan, safe houses, and considering filing an order of protection.   I know we have been discussing baby stuff and r/s stuff, but I think this woman is right - I need to focus on my safety and my health.  There's no reason to even entertain even the question of a baby question right now. 

She said their services could also help with legal separation questions.  Mostly I just want to talk to other men who have faced similar.   Group therapy could be good for me.

[KateCat]

Excellent, excellent news. 

[maxsterling]

The more I think about it, the more I am glad I called that place.  Interestingly, it was the same place my W went to for trauma therapy before we got married. 

I was sure to let the woman know my wife is mentally ill. And she was very firm and saying that she understands, she knows I care for her, and the work I have put in, but none of that matters if I am not safe.

I was hit on the back of the head.  That's on the 911 tape.  Had it been a glass or something harder than an I-phone, and I could be DEAD right now.  I was punched in the chest - heart area, enough to leave about the biggest deepest bruise I have ever had.  Much harder, and I could be dealing with broken ribs or worse. 

The woman was right - my safety is #1, and this is serious.  Yes, W has apologized, but is she remorseful?  In MC two weeks ago she said she needed to move forward from it and not talk about it in MC.  Ok.  Last night in MC was her complaining about me and her perception that I don't like to spend time with her.  Considering she punched me in the chest, hit me in the back of the head, ODd, and was in the hospital for a few days, I'm a pretty darned nice forgiving guy for taking her on a camping trip the week later.   

The sidebar on this site says SAFETY FIRST.  I need to remember that.  It seems like I have forgotten that, and have been just going around trying to learn to validate her needs, communication skills, dealing with suicide threats, etc, and forgotten to put ME first.  Yeah, she tried to kill herself.  But her life was not the only one at risk that night.

[Cat Familiar]

Yay Max!

Contacting the DV center is a very important first step. Speaking from my experience as a battered wife, I know how easy it is to minimize physical attacks when there's nothing broken or bloodied. However, each attack leaves a deep psychological wound.

What I realized is that even though my husband may have not intended to severely injure me, it could very well have happened. When hit, people can fall, hit their heads on the corner of the bathtub or a kitchen counter and that can be lights out forever.

When I finally wrapped my head around the thought that he could inadvertently have killed me, I realized I was never again going to tolerate being hit. And when he went into that final rage and chased me down the driveway the last time, I finally yelled for help, as humiliating as that was. Though probably no one heard me since it's a rural area, it definitely changed the dynamic and I realized I was done with the marriage. He couldn't believe that I wouldn't just let it go and forgive him once again, but in my mind, it was totally over.

Yes, you need to hear from other men in your situation. Without consequences, domestic violence gets worse. Probably even with consequences it gets worse. The biggest question to ask yourself is "Why would I live like this?"

I'm very glad you're finding the resources you need to support you.

[Verbena]

Max, if you do not want a child with your wife, then at some point you are going to have to say those words directly to her.   

When/if you are ready to do that, for your own safety please have witnesses present--a therapist, doctor, etc.  Telling her when you are alone with her at home could result in violence against you. 

[Haye]

Another 'YAY' Max! It's really good you called the DV center and you understood the need to make sure of your safety and making that a priority. And she's right - domestic violence usually starts quite small and escalates so slowly that the abused once do not even realize it's getting worse and start to believe it's because of his/her bad behaviour the abuser has no other choice, but to beat them.

I remember thinking previously (before yer marriage) that your wife was aware of her issues, at least on occasion, and trying to take responsibilyt. From your text now it sounds like your wife doesn't take responsibility for her actions, but sees it like you forced her to do something drastic (to get your attention). I have studied DV patterns and reasons a bit clinically when i was at university and it is the way of thinking I find alarming. There are cases of DV where the abuser is so shocked of his/her behaviour that will work on his/her actions and behaviour and make sure it will never happen again. the "i had to do it, because you something something" is usually a very bad sign.

I second the others here - saying NO firmly, but without rage is important. Saying "no, we are not going to have a baby NOW" is good too.

It is possible to say NO to domestic violence, or the abuse, without divorce. In my opinion it would require a consequence, too. Like you leaving for three days every time you feel threatened, and sticking to that plan.

Your situation sounds so draining that, in your shoes, i would take a small time out. Like a weekend or maybe a week somewhere else. Spend it with friends or others in similar situation.

[Grey Kitty]

   Safety first.

And Max, one thought about having a baby NOW. (As opposed to later)

I know of a few people (mostly women) who were being abused, who had children. And while they (at the time) weren't willing to leave an abusive relationship for themselves, or at least weren't ready yet... .they hit a point where they knew that they had to get their child out for the child's safety and wellbeing. That they weren't going to let a child grow up seeing one parent abuse the other one emotionally.

If you aren't sure for YOUR safety with your wife, what about a future child's safety? Think about that before you allow yourself to produce a baby.

I'm really glad you are getting help, not just here.

 GK

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .