Unsustainable

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

OK- brief info to get up to speed.  Married x 10 yrs. She left, divorced. Got back together, re-married now x 11yrs.  Two kids, one from each of our periods together- 18 yo and 6 yo.  Together terribly (including divorce- which we really didn't do all that well) for almost 25 yrs.  Nearly always sexless ( < 10 x / yr) EXCEPT in the periods before marriage and before re-marriage; when sex actually seemed to come at the natural rate of my desire.  Once married, quickly dropped off to match her desire. Which, if you've read any of my other posts, really is about zero.

So, about 8 weeks ago- maybe longer now, I found myself spiraling dangerously close to suicide. I did not have a plan- nor do I now - but I realized that I needed OUT to save myself.  Way too many people count on me, for me to just check out.  Permanently check out.  I left home for about 10 days.

While I was in the "safety" of my separation, I said somethings about what I needed to change in our marriage for it to work for me.  I was no longer going to accept any form of abuse- not just the obvious rages, but also / especially the insidious stuff that really chipped away at my mental health.  BPD came up for the first time between us.  Meaning, I've known she has BPD for over 15 years.  Never once had I said anything that lead her to believe that I knew she has "her worst fear."  My "coming out" was also around the same time that her therapist of over 8 yrs suggested that she has "BPD traits."  This set up a panic in her that I really feared (still do)- for her safety and my own.  She really really really does not want to be "borderline" anything.  She needs so desperately to be "normal."  She was willing to overlook some pretty seriously terrible treatment of the person who loves her the most in this whole world (me, obviously) and some really terrible self loathing and suffering on her own, to force a belief that she is "normal."  For example, she confessed to me that she didn't believe that anything was wrong with our sex life (which, recently had become a once a year thing) until her therapist told her that, no... .it is not normal.  She had to bounce this off a close colleague / friend, who also agreed that sleeping in separate rooms and having sex once a year is not a "normal" thing for a married couple to do.  I find this so completely exasperating because of what she does for a living- a doctor of clinical psychology.

_____________________________

We started marriage therapy after I left and came back.  She has come to the realization that she is the "IP" in our couples work.  I had to ask her what "IP" means, because she was actually crying, and I needed to know what that means, so I could validate her experience in some meaningful way.  IP = Identified Patient.  When a dysfunctional family comes to a therapist- as a group or a couple- most of the time, there is a single individual ("the trouble maker" that the therapist must focus more attention on, to make any meaningful therapeutic difference in the lives of all involved.  It has been a real world shattering and shame spiral inducing journey of pain for my wife, and it really, truly breaks my heart to see her suffer so much.  I do, after all, love her SO much.  Our lives have been intertwined for 25 years now.  I guess the two relationship reasons I have not left this marriage are:

1.  I love her SO dearly

2.  I have suffered much abuse, but I have not arrived at a state of contempt about this.  I have a true compassion about the reasons for the abuse, and the reasons for her suffering.

______________________________

During the last MC session, the therapist asked me how things were going.  My reply was that things are actually going quite well.  We don't seem to have as much arguing / outward conflict between us.  And, in the last 5 weeks, we've had about 3 years worth of sex.  He was surprised to hear my response to his question about how I was doing in the hopelessness and despair that was so terribly prominent when we came to our first MC session- "still hopeless."  My wife was also very upset by this because she heard it to mean that I think SHE is hopeless.

______________________________

My hopelessness goes against a lot of signs that might suggest improvement.  The most critical one (in my one track mind, anyway) is the sex.  I stood up for myself for the first time in my life, when it comes to my sex, and said I was not happy.  She has put aside quite a lot in herself to meet me part way in this.  (As I have written in a previous couple posts, she has made it clear that she has very little sexual desire to begin with, and in an email she sent to me and her therapist, instead of just her therapist, she finds my body repulsive).  Trust me- I'm like a kid in a candy store in the little sex we've had since my leaving. 

But even more, she has changed her whole level of irritability and volatile reactivity.  She does seem to be considerably more thoughtful of me, and my feelings with the things she says out loud.  She is way more thoughtful of herself.  Instead of reacting and lashing out in anger or self defense, she seems to be making a concerted effort in stopping, thinking about her reactions to me, and either self soothing or using "I" statements, rather than the usual vindictive, rage-filled accusations and criticisms that I have grown used to, over the years.

Things seem to be getting better, right?

Wrong.

It is almost like this Stepford Wives transformation happening before my eyes.  She is becoming this person that is almost robotic and extremely distant.  The flight into health I am witnessing, I'm afraid, is just a last ditch effort to mirror what she believes I need to keep me in this marriage.

In other words, there aren't a lot of extinction bursts flying around (there are some) but given she was facing a real loss- not only her husband, but many of the comforts that come with me.  Comforts she had been taking for granted, seem so tenuous now. 

She is suffering considerable shame, guilt and conflict- she does, after all, have BPD.  This internal dysregulation is ongoing, and almost certainly exacerbated by recent events, like me leaving, and returning with specific and strict boundaries that she's never had to consider at any time in our past.

My ongoing concern and hopelessness stems from an observation that I have made in all of these improvements.  These improvements seem mostly to serve one God:  avoid abandonment.

__________________________________

My fear is that we are moving into a third significant period of "falling in love."  The first 2 times preceeded marriage, and then our remarriage.  Things were not just good- they were GREAT.  She is critically good at mirroring, and I am pretty good at ignoring warning signs and seriously huge red flags.

I am afraid that a couple months or years from now, I'm going to be all sexed up and feeling good about things then when I'm least expecting it, the ball is going to drop.

Is this as unsustainable as it feels?  Am I falling into the trap of mirrored complacency? 

I have done a considerable amount of work to undo my enmeshed, pathological doormat / punching bag status.  I'm not saying it would be easy to leave her right now- but it would be considerably easier to do now, than it would have been 6 or 9 months ago.  If I fall back into the web of enchantment and mirrored love, and move a thousand steps backwards.  I could easily find myself back in that terrible dark place that put me on my self-destruction, death spiral.

Cautiously concerned, ungrateful, paranoid or realistic about a true unsustainable flight into health?

Thanks-

Surg_Bear

 

[Surg_Bear]

OK- brief info to get up to speed.  Married x 10 yrs. She left, divorced. Got back together, re-married now x 11yrs.  Two kids, one from each of our periods together- 18 yo and 6 yo.  Together terribly (including divorce- which we really didn't do all that well) for almost 25 yrs.  Nearly always sexless ( < 10 x / yr) EXCEPT in the periods before marriage and before re-marriage; when sex actually seemed to come at the natural rate of my desire.  Once married, quickly dropped off to match her desire. Which, if you've read any of my other posts, really is about zero.

So, about 8 weeks ago- maybe longer now, I found myself spiraling dangerously close to suicide. I did not have a plan- nor do I now - but I realized that I needed OUT to save myself.  Way too many people count on me, for me to just check out.  Permanently check out.  I left home for about 10 days.

While I was in the "safety" of my separation, I said somethings about what I needed to change in our marriage for it to work for me.  I was no longer going to accept any form of abuse- not just the obvious rages, but also / especially the insidious stuff that really chipped away at my mental health.  BPD came up for the first time between us.  Meaning, I've known she has BPD for over 15 years.  Never once had I said anything that lead her to believe that I knew she has "her worst fear."  My "coming out" was also around the same time that her therapist of over 8 yrs suggested that she has "BPD traits."  This set up a panic in her that I really feared (still do)- for her safety and my own.  She really really really does not want to be "borderline" anything.  She needs so desperately to be "normal."  She was willing to overlook some pretty seriously terrible treatment of the person who loves her the most in this whole world (me, obviously) and some really terrible self loathing and suffering on her own, to force a belief that she is "normal."  For example, she confessed to me that she didn't believe that anything was wrong with our sex life (which, recently had become a once a year thing) until her therapist told her that, no... .it is not normal.  She had to bounce this off a close colleague / friend, who also agreed that sleeping in separate rooms and having sex once a year is not a "normal" thing for a married couple to do.  I find this so completely exasperating because of what she does for a living- a doctor of clinical psychology.

_____________________________

We started marriage therapy after I left and came back.  She has come to the realization that she is the "IP" in our couples work.  I had to ask her what "IP" means, because she was actually crying, and I needed to know what that means, so I could validate her experience in some meaningful way.  IP = Identified Patient.  When a dysfunctional family comes to a therapist- as a group or a couple- most of the time, there is a single individual ("the trouble maker" that the therapist must focus more attention on, to make any meaningful therapeutic difference in the lives of all involved.  It has been a real world shattering and shame spiral inducing journey of pain for my wife, and it really, truly breaks my heart to see her suffer so much.  I do, after all, love her SO much.  Our lives have been intertwined for 25 years now.  I guess the two relationship reasons I have not left this marriage are:

1.  I love her SO dearly

2.  I have suffered much abuse, but I have not arrived at a state of contempt about this.  I have a true compassion about the reasons for the abuse, and the reasons for her suffering.

______________________________

During the last MC session, the therapist asked me how things were going.  My reply was that things are actually going quite well.  We don't seem to have as much arguing / outward conflict between us.  And, in the last 5 weeks, we've had about 3 years worth of sex.  He was surprised to hear my response to his question about how I was doing in the hopelessness and despair that was so terribly prominent when we came to our first MC session- "still hopeless."  My wife was also very upset by this because she heard it to mean that I think SHE is hopeless.

______________________________

My hopelessness goes against a lot of signs that might suggest improvement.  The most critical one (in my one track mind, anyway) is the sex.  I stood up for myself for the first time in my life, when it comes to my sex, and said I was not happy.  She has put aside quite a lot in herself to meet me part way in this.  (As I have written in a previous couple posts, she has made it clear that she has very little sexual desire to begin with, and in an email she sent to me and her therapist, instead of just her therapist, she finds my body repulsive).  Trust me- I'm like a kid in a candy store in the little sex we've had since my leaving. 

But even more, she has changed her whole level of irritability and volatile reactivity.  She does seem to be considerably more thoughtful of me, and my feelings with the things she says out loud.  She is way more thoughtful of herself.  Instead of reacting and lashing out in anger or self defense, she seems to be making a concerted effort in stopping, thinking about her reactions to me, and either self soothing or using "I" statements, rather than the usual vindictive, rage-filled accusations and criticisms that I have grown used to, over the years.

Things seem to be getting better, right?

Wrong.

It is almost like this Stepford Wives transformation happening before my eyes.  She is becoming this person that is almost robotic and extremely distant.  The flight into health I am witnessing, I'm afraid, is just a last ditch effort to mirror what she believes I need to keep me in this marriage.

In other words, there aren't a lot of extinction bursts flying around (there are some) but given she was facing a real loss- not only her husband, but many of the comforts that come with me.  Comforts she had been taking for granted, seem so tenuous now. 

She is suffering considerable shame, guilt and conflict- she does, after all, have BPD.  This internal dysregulation is ongoing, and almost certainly exacerbated by recent events, like me leaving, and returning with specific and strict boundaries that she's never had to consider at any time in our past.

My ongoing concern and hopelessness stems from an observation that I have made in all of these improvements.  These improvements seem mostly to serve one God:  avoid abandonment.

__________________________________

My fear is that we are moving into a third significant period of "falling in love."  The first 2 times preceeded marriage, and then our remarriage.  Things were not just good- they were GREAT.  She is critically good at mirroring, and I am pretty good at ignoring warning signs and seriously huge red flags.

I am afraid that a couple months or years from now, I'm going to be all sexed up and feeling good about things then when I'm least expecting it, the ball is going to drop.

Is this as unsustainable as it feels?  Am I falling into the trap of mirrored complacency? 

I have done a considerable amount of work to undo my enmeshed, pathological doormat / punching bag status.  I'm not saying it would be easy to leave her right now- but it would be considerably easier to do now, than it would have been 6 or 9 months ago.  If I fall back into the web of enchantment and mirrored love, and move a thousand steps backwards.  I could easily find myself back in that terrible dark place that put me on my self-destruction, death spiral.

Cautiously concerned, ungrateful, paranoid or realistic about a true unsustainable flight into health?

Thanks-

Surg_Bear

 

[vortex of confusion]

Is this as unsustainable as it feels?  Am I falling into the trap of mirrored complacency?

I don't think it is completely unsustainable IF you keep working on getting out of the FOG. Keep readig and posting. I know all about that place of complacency. I have a history of buying into his changes only to relax and have things go right back to the way they were. Keep working on raising your awareness.  

I have done a considerable amount of work to undo my enmeshed, pathological doormat / punching bag status.  I'm not saying it would be easy to leave her right now- but it would be considerably easier to do now, than it would have been 6 or 9 months ago.  If I fall back into the web of enchantment and mirrored love, and move a thousand steps backwards.  I could easily find myself back in that terrible dark place that put me on my self-destruction, death spiral.

Cautiously concerned, ungrateful, paranoid or realistic about a true unsustainable flight into health?

If you want to stay with her, keep working at it. I suspect that there is still some enmeshment. It takes a long time to untangle all of that enmeshment.

That web of enchantment is soo appealing and it is soo easy to get snared by it. All I can say is work on keeping your feet on the ground. Who or what helps you stay grounded in reality?

Keep plugging along and don't forget. Do not, for one second, forget about the pain. I know that a lot of people say that you have to let go of the pain and forgive because resentment will get you no where. That is true to an extent. If I let go of the pain, then I know I will slip right back into old patterns. Until I am certain that I am not going to slip back into that place of complacency, I have to hold on to something to keep me from slipping.

[Surg_Bear]

Is this as unsustainable as it feels?  Am I falling into the trap of mirrored complacency?

I have done a considerable amount of work to undo my enmeshed, pathological doormat / punching bag status.  I'm not saying it would be easy to leave her right now- but it would be considerably easier to do now, than it would have been 6 or 9 months ago.  If I fall back into the web of enchantment and mirrored love, and move a thousand steps backwards.  I could easily find myself back in that terrible dark place that put me on my self-destruction, death spiral.

Cautiously concerned, ungrateful, paranoid or realistic about a true unsustainable flight into health?

If you want to stay with her, keep working at it. I suspect that there is still some enmeshment. It takes a long time to untangle all of that enmeshment.

That web of enchantment is soo appealing and it is soo easy to get snared by it. All I can say is work on keeping your feet on the ground. Who or what helps you stay grounded in reality?

Thank you (AGAIN) VOC for your thoughtful reply- spot on, as is your usual (as far as I have seen).

Couple things to clarify... .

Yes, I agree there is still quite a bit of enmeshment still present. I did not mean to imply that I was "cured." But more meant to say that I have withdrawn enough to avoid being the constant target- always there for her to use and abuse at will, no more.  Still not "free" to be or speak my mind as honestly and purely as I need, at this stage of my life.

There is one GLARING omission from my post above... .

The two times previously that I have fallen into the dangerous web of enchantment were considerably different than the current situation in one significant way. 

Therapy.  We shell out $3,000 a month, or more, for therapy.  For her and me.

She is now in a therapeutic relationship that continuously challenges her to address why she is thinking / reacting in certain ways.  Insight has been extremely difficult but extremely valuable to some of the core "defects" that lead to her BPD.  She is gaining strengths to look at herself and her behavior like never before- she is committed to this work for a variety of reasons- good reasons.  Her work demands it.  Her need for personal growth demands it.  She is not just going through the motions here.  She IS becoming more grounded, and improvements have been striking.  Not striking if you look at moment to moment, but when I look back to how she was 10, 5 or even 3 years ago, she is dramatically better.  Her therapist is using an Object Relations and Psychodynamic method / model which relies HEAVILY on the transference.  He has allowed her to focus projections and BPD ways of relating onto him, so he can "see" what goes on in her life outside the therapy relationship, and make real, palpable changes.  He keeps her crazy in check in many ways. (When he goes on vacation and her therapy is interrupted, I feel it... .projections and dysregulation that he has been managing flip over to my projection receiving screen, and there is all kinds of hell to pay.  I HATE it when he goes on vacation- way worse than she does).

Her work with her therapist DEFINITELY keeps me grounded to a significant degree.

My work caring for patients with a variety or surgical problems keeps me grounded and sane- in a crazy, hugely demanding way.  I love my patients, and I love my work.  I would do surgery for free, if I was independently wealthy.  I am a surgeon.  I do not do surgery for a living.  I do not consider this work a job, or even a career.  I am a TRUE surgeon.

My primary grounding method, however, is the work I do with my Psychiatrist.  He keeps all my crap in check, like my wife's therapist does for her.  He forces me to redirect my attention to the work I have to do- on myself, about myself, and for myself.  I would be swimming a much deeper pool of despair, if I wasn't doing this work with him. 

No... .I take that back.  I am CERTAIN that I would be dead right now, if I weren't under his care and direction.  I have to emphasize that my individual psychotherapy prevented me from becoming a statistic- another physician lost in the devastation of suicide.  This is a growing and significant public health concern.  Doctors are killing themselves at an alarming rate, and I was almost one of them. 

A couple months ago, I did not attempt, but I flew dangerously close.  I have the means, and certainly the knowledge.  There is no person more trained to take a life than a surgeon who deals with penetrating and blunt trauma, and vascular injuries and reconstruction on a regular basis.  I could easily rattle off 25 ways to painlessly, quickly and dramatically end my life- no guns or rope needed.

My work keeps me grounded, but as stated in a forthright way above, my work could also be my ticket out.

Things I'm working on re-claiming from the loss of enmeshed living, things that also used to define me- things I did not just for health, but for the revery of the sport- tennis, swimming, surfing, etc.  I stopped all of these activities a few years ago, when I seemed to accept, as my mission, focusing my efforts on helping and satisfying the impossible demands of my wife.  As I have stated in other posts, I really grieved the loss of (probably more accurate to say "absence of" regular, soul enriching, physical and sexual intimacy.  I gave up nearly everything (except my work) to try and establish a closeness in my marriage that was withdrawn, chewed up, and destroyed by BPD unchecked.

I am also grounded by music.  Sometimes, I just need to rock my socks off with rage music, like TOOL, and Rage Against The Machine- other times, more sublime, and heady jazz (love Miles, Wayne Shorter, the list is long) or classical.  I am a drummer- and focusing my attention on time and rhythm helps keep me centered.

Speaking of time- I am LATE. Gotta go.

Have a great day.

Surg_Bear

[vortex of confusion]

It sounds like you have a lot going for you at the moment.

I know this probably sounds a bit trite. I am not sure how else to say it. If your ultimate goal is to stay, then it helps to focus on the positives. That isn't to say that you forget the negative stuff. I sometimes review it to keep me moving forward.

Like you, I can look at where things were a couple of years ago and see that a lot of progress has been made. Progress doesn't take away my loneliness or frustrations though. Those are my things to work on and deal with even though I would love nothing more than to be able to reach out to my spouse about those things.

Since this is on the undecided forum, I gather that you haven't made a really firm decision either way and are trying to realistically figure out if this is something that you can sustain. I think it is possible to sustain if you keep working at it and start doing the things that you used to do such as surfing, etc.

Since you love playing the drums, do you have an outlet to play them regularly such as a band or something? There are a lot of musicians out there with busy schedules that want to get together and play occasionally without the commitment of being in a full on band.

Let her therapist work with her and you focus on you.

Have you grieved the loss of the relationship that you want to have? I know I spent a lot of time grieving over the fact that it is quite likely that I will never have the marriage that I envisioned all of those years ago. I have had to do a lot of thinking about whether or not my vision of marriage was even realistic. I think society tends to try to sell this notion that relationships are all roses and sunshine, blah, blah, blah. I had to step away from that and grieve the fact that what I have isn't what I wanted.

It takes time and you will likely experience all sorts of emotions. I know that I have and I know that there are days when I feel flakier than a box of corn flakes. It is okay to feel confused and hopeless and all sorts of other things. One of the problems that I ran into as I have been working through stuff is the fact that I had shoved all of my feelings aside to help my husband. Now that I am not shoving them aside and am letting myself feel stuff, I am all over the map and I have stuff coming up that I didn't even realize was there and am not even sure how to identify it.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Surge_Bear, You've been through the wringer twice already -- so to speak -- so this is not your first rodeo (mixing metaphors, I know!).  What makes you think the outcome will be any different this time?  Or, to use a cliche, is this a triumph of hope over history?  Only you know for sure.  You do know for sure, right?  LuckyJim

[Surg_Bear]

Hey Surge_Bear, You've been through the wringer twice already -- so to speak -- so this is not your first rodeo (mixing metaphors, I know!).  What makes you think the outcome will be any different this time?  Or, to use a cliche, is this a triumph of hope over history?  Only you know for sure.  You do know for sure, right?  LuckyJim

LuckyJim-

I don't know for sure, which was the reason for my post.  I am very guarded at the moment.  Things are really good right now- better than they have been in the past 10 years. I'm kind of startled to see how hopeful and genuinely happy and loving my wife appears to be. I'm not making this up, projecting wishes, or in denial.

I put my foot down, left and came back on the condition that there be no more abuse. It was absolutely terrible, because of the fight she put up. I was convinced it would not work or last- especially since I never really received any clear agreement to my terms, or (as if this could ever happen) an apology for just how terribly she treated me for a whole decade.

Her behavior in the last month, or so, has been really quite lovely. She's been open about her tendency to rely on black / white thinking. She has told me about how she relates to her shame- she has confessed real insights into her disordered thinking.

Now, there may be some festering resentment on my part- I am, after all, just an ordinary Joe- but I'm still hurting from her last two rages that laid me bare.  These rages were less than six weeks ago, and totally relationship destroying. I lost my trust in the moment, and it has taken this long for me to get that back.

It's like this spiral into forced separation, and the preceding inhuman treatment she so easily, thoughtlessly, and vindictively snapped at me - they don't exist in her memory at all. She is scurrying around the house like a happy housewife, doting mother, and thoughtful and considerate spouse as if nothing happened.

I came back to her with the promise out loud to her, after hours of agonizing about it at my best friend's house during the separation, that if the abuse stopped, I would come back and try with my best efforts, and a heart full of love, to make this marriage work.

I think I'm living up to my promise, and she is definitely doing her part.

So, why do I feel so absolutely crappy?

Because I know about RECYCLING. I know she is facing considerable loss, if I leave her for good. I know she is desperate to keep me in her life- she has even told me so.  She is changing like a chameleon right before my eyes. I want to fall for it.

This, believe it or not, is my biggest red flag.  I want so much to believe this could work.  I want to stop feeling my hurt, put it aside, and focus on the good that could be.  This is my own "crazy" kicking in, and telling me to follow my heart (and my erection) and jump head first back into the fray.

Nothing bad could happen, right? After all, she loves me and I love her.

I am being recycled and there is a very, very powerful pull to put hope over history.

I need to be guarded right now. I haven't completely disengaged from enmeshed yet, and it would be irresponsible to my self, to deny my suspicions.

Stay tuned-

Surg_Bear

[Notwendy]

I understand your fears but this may also be an opportunity for real personal growth and growth in your marriage. Being vulnerable in a relationship is always a risk, and it is understandable that you are not ready to be vulnerable. However, the outcome is more in your hands than you may realize.

Many years ago my H did something similar and it felt too good to be true. Eventually he did rage and I went into despair over the fact that the good times were not real. This is before I had any real understanding of the relationship dynamics, that my mother has BPD and how this all played into my role in the marital dysfunction.

However, I became committed to my own personal growth, and that created a slow shift in the marriage. It was not a steady climb but a series of standing up and then falling down again. Our MC explained that we needed to learn new ways to relate to each other, but all we have are the ways we know and until we practice using new relationship tools, we will fall back to doing what is familiar to us.

One way I knew I had changed was when the rages didn't affect me like they used to, and I didn't react to them. This made a significant change in the relationship. I would come to my T asking how to prevent the rages. She said I can't- they are his rages, but my response to them was fueling them.

What is significant to me is that you both are doing some work in therapy that seems to be effective. You can take your responses to your T- asking him to help you process them differently. Right now what your wife is doing doesn't feel real to you, but it is all she knows how to do. Yet somewhere her motive includes that she wants to be in this marriage, and it seems you do too. Change doesn't happen overnight. There will likely be a rage, but if you can see this as something you can learn from- something that you can be different in- can you stay calm in the midst of her rages and not react like you do- then, I think this can give you hope.

You are a surgeon. You know that surgery has risks, but to get the results of surgery, one has to also accept the risks. Looking to see where this is heading in your marriage has risks. You know that doing what you have been doing is getting you the same results, but a change in you can lead to different results.

[Joel2:25]

Her behavior in the last month, or so, has been really quite lovely. She's been open about her tendency to rely on black / white thinking. She has told me about how she relates to her shame- she has confessed real insights into her disordered thinking.

I came back to her with the promise out loud to her, after hours of agonizing about it at my best friend's house during the separation, that if the abuse stopped, I would come back and try with my best efforts, and a heart full of love, to make this marriage work.

I think I'm living up to my promise, and she is definitely doing her part.

I am being recycled and there is a very, very powerful pull to put hope over history.

I need to be guarded right now. I haven't completely disengaged from enmeshed yet, and it would be irresponsible to my self, to deny my suspicions.

Stay tuned-

Surg_Bear

Wow... .this is the first time I've heard "our patterns" termed as such and clearly I'm being recycled as well. ABSOLUTELY my life/marriage experience goes through these same patterns as yours. A little spooky and oh so affirming to hear someone else who also lives in this crazy, can't quite explain what the hey it is marriage drama. We too have spent so much $$$-and we do NOT have the income to support it-on counseling. I too have had that delightful honeymoon period following each of the "change or divorce scenarios". Lately he REFUSES!-screaming- about any further counseling as he's "doing it himself."  (Physical affection is out of the question at this point because(-----fill in the blank with his excuse du jour- work, tired, not interested, I'm not making him feel anything, no one cares, everyone hates him, I'm too busy, I don't affirm, he's mad about something I said( 8 months ago, 5 yrs ago, 17 yrs ago!,) he's too fat, He feels like crap etc etc etc,... .) really? Freaking Mess you've got a beautiful wife coming on to you... .Really? Come on man... .(If I push-extinction burst so I have stopped. Which he then says PROVES I don't really love him, want him, etc. sheesh.) (I laugh at myself here... .If this doesn't paint ME as crazy, what possibly could?)

I'm learning so much here in this forum and this morning I THANK YOU all for the factual reality. I'm going to enjoy the calm before the next storm and I already have a counseling appt set up for ME. I am going to finish this journey-alone if need be. I can deal with many things, but the reality of not having sexual/emotional/affectionate expression Surg Bear (refers to in previous post) in my life is becoming the deal breaker. He's self-sabotaging in this area and I'm getting fed up. Counselor says I'll know when to walk away... .super sad thing is I do love the Good Guy- it's Mr Nasty I could walk away from in a heartbeat and NEVER blink an eye

[Joel2:25]

One way I knew I had changed was when the rages didn't affect me like they used to, and I didn't react to them. This made a significant change in the relationship. I would come to my T asking how to prevent the rages. She said I can't- they are his rages, but my response to them was fueling them.

Thank you for this insightful post as well. After watching/reading and going back over key posts, I can easily see where I have been a major part of the problem. I had learned in therapy not to "react to his reactions" but I hadn't learned how to not "fuel" them as you refer to here. From the resources here I've really come to a better understanding of BPD and the lack of logical processing under stress. I'm very analytical and "helpful"-argh!- which pretty much pissed off my H when he was in the beginnings of his reactivity patterns. Already I diffused several days of what would have been major drama and icy ignoring simply by being acutely aware and not "helping" (my term). I see his "crazy" and hurt for him in all his unsatisfying relationships, but I'm not "helping" anymore (he's still pissed off lion spoiling for a fight, but I'm laying low 

I'm also not taking the bait or defending myself from his picks, jabs and pokes. It's making home much more peaceful (still lonely) place. Reaching out to kind, positive people to help with that aspect of living with sullen man

[Surg_Bear]

I am resurrecting this thread to discuss answers to my question:

After being left for 10 days, starting MT, and hearing my new boundaries about abuse, my wife fell into a weird, not-herself way of being with me that seemed almost robotic and definitely guarded.  We started having sex again, and I had wondered if my wife's transformation, and this willingness to do anything to hold the relationship together was unsustainable.

5 weeks later:

It WAS unsustainable.

Haven't had sex since a week or so prior to starting this thread- though in her mind, and what she says in therapy, we are "still having sex."

She has lost the robotic, Stepford wives wish to mirror and recycle.

There is still the desperation to keep us together on her part, but some of her most recent rages have been the worst there ever were- the WORST rage she ever inflicted on me was leveled onto me after this recycle was in full bloom.

We have discussed in MT that perhaps her last 2 (and the worst 2, ever) rages might have been back-lash in reaction to having sex when she has no desire.  She does not want sex - with me or anyone else.  Being "forced" to have sex because of my ultimatum has made her SO resentful, that every moment is anxiety-provoking (in my experience) and mostly feels like a rage about to happen.

Sex has stopped completely, and I have no hope of it ever starting up again.

She has declared that she is "asexual" and has no desire.  This means that I must choose to be celibate and remain married to her.  She does not see that there is the possibility that the resentment she had for me "making" her have sex with me by threatening to leave, is the same resentment that would grow in me because of this forced celibacy.

I have decided to leave her.

I told her in the safety of our most recent MT session, 4 days ago.  We are still living together.  I told her that I want to leave with grace and love, and that I want to prove to her that I am not going to leave her penniless and with nothing.  She has expressed that she is afraid I will use her diagnosis to take our children away from her and never let her have contact with them.  She is afraid that I will take my income, my cars, my health insurance, everything and leave her homeless.  I have no idea why she would think I am the kind of man who would do this to her.  I am trying to do just the opposite- I am trying to leave and not change a damn thing- except who we have sex with.  We already sleep in separate rooms.  We don't have sex, and on an intimate level, we never have.  She depersonalizes and wants it to be over the moment it starts.  She wants me to be celibate, and I am saying no F-ing way.  I want to continue to be involved in my children's lives, and that means being involved in her life.  She cannot be the awesome mother she is without my financial help and she resents that, and wants to refuse my fiscal assistance.

I am certain that her refusal to accept my financial, and emotional (for that matter) assistance to try and maintain our childrens' lifestyle is a reflection of her wanting to show me how much my leaving is destroying her.  It is not my responsibility to stop her from being destroyed in this- it is hers.  She needs to step up to the plate, accept the car she considers hers anyway, take the house and financial assistance and somehow get a grip for her sake, and for the sake of the children.  She wants to spiral out of control into a spin toward homeless and helpless to punish me for leaving.  And also to set up a condition where she needs to be rescued (by me, or the next guy).

I'm sorry, but if she wants to go to that degree of drama to prove her point that my leaving is going to annihilate her to the point of no return, I WILL go for full custody and leave her there- to stew in her bad choices.  I cannot let her inability to cope to harm my children.

This terrible relationship of mine is fixin' to get worse.  I am trying my best to keep it sane and keep the "_Bear" ship afloat.  I have requested that she keep coming to weekly MT, but we are going to call it Couples Therapy not Marriage Therapy.  I want to consider this marriage over, but MUST continue to have a partnership with her in our children. 

We may just find that we were terrible at being married, and even worse at being divorced the first time, and that what we are best at can continue:  Being best friends and raising beautiful, well adjusted children together.

I want to thank everyone here who have been following my saga, and offering advice along the way.

My saga is not anywhere near complete, but I may just start posting exclusively in the "Leaving" sub-forum of bpdfamily.

Love,

Surg_Bear

   

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Surg_Bear, I'm sorry to hear about recent developments.  A BPD storm cloud, in my experience, can appear out of a clear blue sky, without warning, when you think you are in a good place.  For whatever reason, the ceasefire doesn't last for long and the rage cycle starts up again.  It's relentless and so frustrating.  Suggest you try to focus on yourself and what is right for you, as you enter this new phase.  Needless to say, there is rough sledding ahead.  I've been there, my friend, and understand the challenges.  If it helps, I think you are making the right decision under the circumstances.

LuckyJim

[ugghh]

Surge,  thank you for sharing your journey in such great detail.  I am sorry for the loss you are going through, but glad you are here to share and hope you find some comfort and hope in the shared experience.   These boards were a lifeline for me a couple years ago.

Clearly you are both an educated man as well as a deeply compassionate person who has given everything to try and make it work.   Your last post caused me to take pause.  While I certainly am not telling you to kick out your wife, I would suggest that emotionally you are perhaps not in the best place to advocate for yourself in a divorce.  Your idea that you want to keep going to therapy suggests that somehow you think your wife is going to be responsive in a positive manner.   It took 18 months for my counselor to get it through my head that BPD is not something that a person has, it is literally who they are.   

Sadly for all of us it seems that the results of the mental health community in diagnosing and treating pwBPD have been shaky at best.  I was married for 26 years and am now divorced for 1 year and I still struggle with re-prioritizing my life.  During the marriage it seemed to be couple, kids, then me.   What I have come to realize is that the priority of my ex was Her, Her and her.   You are the glue that holds the family together and like me you need to focus first on self, then on kids and then on ex. 

Please be careful in this transitional time and watch out for the extinction bursts - they usually end with the sheriff escorting you out of your house.

[OnceConfused]

Hi Surge:

I like your post and your lucid writing. I want to throw in my 2cents here .

I was somewhat unhappy in my first marriage, the sex at the end was about 1 every 2 or 3 months. Of course, I was frustrated and consequently we got in fights every so often. Then my wife died from a car accident, a year after which I met this xbpgf and experienced the craziness. I left BPD and met my now wife  of 7 years and we are very happy together. Here is how I get to the stage of happiness today.

First of all, after my first wife death I happened to read this wonderful book called , THE FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES by Dr. Gary Chapman. He puts forth a model of how to sustain the love in a r.s once the falling in love fades. One of the five love languages is PHYSICAL TOUCH (touching and/or sex), for men the sex is just a natural demand as the body is filled up w sperms, but for the woman their sex is more of a hormone and feeling. Nevertheless, if a woman understands the man's language then she will engage in sex with him, even when she is not - just because she needs to fill his love engine.

The book costs 10$ and about 4 hours to read. A worthwhile investment.

The magic of the book is that you must share the model with your partner and if the partner does not engage in that with you, then you will not NEVER be happy and fulfilled.

Is that then the time to move on? Perhaps it is, because by then you just co-exist and not live. Wayne Dyer said it thoughtfully " Don't die with the music still in you". Talking about Dr wayne Dyer, I read his books during the time I wanted to disengage from the xBPDgf. His books really helped me see my core principles and how to live fully and mindfully and they helped me see through my weaknesses and my attachment to xbpgf. 

The lesson I learned from Dr Dyer's book "Staying the path", is that I have to find my path, get on it, stay on it and LET NO ONE pull me off that path. Emphasis on letting no one pull us off that path.