Estranged Grandmother Seeking Visitation for Child of BPD Daughter

[EvolvingMom]

Hello Everyone,

My daughter cut me out of her life 2 years ago.  She never told me why but does tell others that "she knows" the reason.  Since her estrangement, I've learned that she has arbitrarily assigned my grandparent rights to a woman she met in Tennessee who helped her when she was pregnant.  She plans on raising her little girl to believe that this woman is her grandmother.  She also plans to raise her daughter to believe that I was abusive to her mother and that for this reason, she will never know her grandmother.  Needless to say, all of this came as quite a shock.  First the estrangement 2 years ago and then to learn that she plans to create a false picture of who her child's grandmother is comes as a shock.

After questioning and doing research, I have a strong suspicion that my daughter is a high functioning individual with BPD.  Her father was diagnosed with schizophrenia.  His mother had been committed to a psychiatric hospital by her parents in the 1960's and her aunt on her father's side has a history of poor choices and drama.

I could take forever to discuss my daughter's issues, my history with her, and the events that led us to this situation.  Suffice it to say that for the first time in my life, I set a boundary with her and she didn't like it, so she cut me out of her life.  However, the main focus is twofold:  To get advice on creating a case for grandparent visitation rights and to open a dialogue with my daughter for purposes of guiding her toward therapy.

Right now my daughter is in hate mode and has been for over 2 years.  She and her husband moved to Hawaii from Tennessee and believe that I don't know where they are.  My daughter has cut off all means of communication and, although I sent a letter of apology right after the initial incident before she moved, she does not acknowledge it and refuses to open the door for any type of communication.

Hawaii grants grandparents rights on the basis of "Best interests of the child" and this is the best state to obtain grandparent rights from. Does anyone have any thoughts as to how to approach this situation?  All I can think as this time is ":)o no harm, Do no harm".  Also, I need a referral to a family law attorney or firm in Hawaii.  This is really a jumbled mess.  I'm good at puzzles, but this one is going to take a lifetime to work through.

I look forward to your responses.

[ForeverDad]

This is a difficult situation.  Parents of course have primary parenting by default in the legal sense, unless a court rules otherwise.  However, that default leaves things a bit fuzzy.  My experience was that my separated spouse at the time refused to let me have any contact with our preschooler.  Without an order stating otherwise, both parents have parental rights but unspecified, that is what a court order is to resolve.  Police refused to assist me, telling me that (1) they would not help me unless I had a court order in hand and (2) if I went anyway and my stbEx called 911 then they would come rushing.  Not wanting to get arrested, I waited 3 months for the court to finally issue a temp order.

Your situation as grandparent is a little different.  As you found out, each state has different flavors of grandparent rights, some have a little, some have none.  I'm guessing you would have to document the history, lack of any substantiated allegations against you and your real concerns to the court, agency or professional handling the matter in their state.

I wonder, if you had no connection you could perhaps file an Amicus Curiae brief with them as Friend of the Court?  Since you do have an interest in the outcome as grandparent, you may be able to file and be included in the matter?

[EvolvingMom]

Thank you.  Hadn't thought of an Amicus Brief.  I'll look into it.  There's a lot to figure out.  There are thousands of miles between us and this will be costly.  However I have time.  I would like to have a dialogue with my daughter but she is so toxic right now that very few can get close to her.  First priority is to get the rights through the courts.  I appreciate your comments.

[livednlearned]

Hi EvolvingMom,

You could be describing my ex husband -- he cut his family out of his life shortly after we married and said almost the exact same phrase, "She knows what she did." (About his mother.) My son, who is now 13, has never met his paternal grandparents.  :'(

Your situation has an extra layer of complexity than a typical custody battle (if there is such a thing for us) and I feel for you. It's not easy to be split black by a loved one with BPD. The interpretation of "best interests of the child" can be very broad in family court. Get as much counsel as you can before you retain a lawyer. You want to be sure that you're getting an attorney who genuinely believes you have a case, and isn't just trying to rope you along. It's a good idea to talk to 2 or 3 before making a decision who you want to represent you.  

There is a book we often recommend here for parents -- Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse by Bill Eddy. There is nothing specific to grandparents in the book, however you'll get a sense of how family law court works, and doesn't work, when there is a custody battle with someone who suffers from BPD. It's the eighth circle of hell, EvolvingMom. You will need a good deal of emotional strength.

One of the things you touch on in your note is similar to parental alienation -- this may actually be your biggest obstacle, bigger than filing a court action so far away. Your D probably believes what she says about you and in her illness is driven to protect her D from you at all costs. She will go to any lengths to keep you out. A court action will confirm for her that you are a threat, and she'll likely dig in her heels and make sure she instills fear in her daughter about spending any time with you. She will fabricate stories about you and you'll likely end up on the defensive. For your GD, being a young child, she will believe her mother. Even those of us who are the biological parents experience this. Even if the court rules in your favor, your GD may be alienated against you by her mother and refuse to see you. Every time you want to assert your rights, your D will make it difficult.

There are other grandparents on the Parenting a Child with BPD board who are going through the same thing. Sadly, your predicament is common. There may be people there who have tried different approaches or learned different ways to communicate that are less triggering for people with BPD.

Big hug to you, EvolvingMom. This is not easy pain to endure.  

LnL

[ForeverDad]

There are some good links here on this topic:

Parents with Adult Kids with BPD: Grandparents Rights

[Thunderstruck]

Getting her into therapy would be very difficult since she is an adult. Plus the frustrating thing about this disorder is that they don't believe that anything is wrong with them and would likely project her disorder onto you (making you to be the unwell one and she's the victim).

You could try to have her involuntarily committed in order to get a diagnosis and a treatment plan, but I think you would have to provide evidence that she is mentally unstable and a harm to herself or others.

What is your situation with her husband? Do you know him well?

[qcarolr]

EvolvingMom  

You are on the right track seeking legal assistance to establish that you are grandmother and desire contact with your granddaughter. How old is your gd? Have you ever had contact with her and at what age? What kinds of contact was this?  It is really important that you find a legal firm that has experience with non-parent rights with children. Ask for how many cases with grandparents they have represented and the succes/pitfalls they have experienced. Do they have anyone in the firm that specializes in this area? This is hard when you are so far away. I have not visited the links Forever Dad referred to for a while. AARP has a very up-to-date grandparents area.

My dh and I have had custody of our gd10 since she was a year old. Our situation is reversed - DD29 thinks of herself as the mom yet is not able to be here for her child. Life would be more peaceful for us if DD did not depend on us so much. She has a complex array of issues in addition to the BPD. We are currently seeking to adopt gd to get child benefits under our social security as we approach retirement. I live near a major metro area and have found only two independent lawyers, one local firm and one national firm willing to even talk with me about our situation. At least I got some consistent referrals from the family law firms that could not help us.

Managing my distress over all this is a major obstacle. I have put a lot of energy in building a personal support network over the past couple of years. This has been so valuable to me. I also suggest you buy the book "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder", Shari Y. Manning, PhD. (link: https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/loving-someone-borderline-personality-disorder) This will help you better understand the dynamics in your relationship with your DD and has concrete ways to improve things the best you can. Looking through it today, I think a review will be helpful for me. The other book I suggest is "Overcoming BPD", Valarie Porr. (link: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=128777.0) It has a really good sample letter using validation skills that has worked for many of us to reconnect with our estranged BPD adult kids.

I really really urge you to post an intro on the "Parenting a Son or Daughter Suffering from BPD" board. There are several grandparents here struggling with connecting with grandkids. There is a lot of support for YOU on this board. I have gained so much from participating there. I look forward to seeing you there.  Here is the link:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=4.0  You can copy your initial post here and use similar subject line.

qcr

[EvolvingMom]

Thanks to ForeverDad, livednlearned, and Thunderstruck.  I'm still new on the board and haven't figured out to reply to individual posts.  I will address each post individually here.

livednlearned:  Hawaii is the most supportive state in the country with respect to grandparents rights due to the large number of families in an adverse and concentrated society.  I appreciate your resources and will begin doing my homework.

Thunderstruck:  I cannot force my daughter into therapy.  I'm realistic about that.  However, I can introduce enough evidence to show the similarities of her behaviors the predictors shown on the DSM.  Just about every checkmark is there, including PTSD from an attempted kidnapping when she was a child and a near fatal accident.  I tried to get her into therapy after both incidents, but she refused to participate. My daughter is both narcissitic and a hypochondriac. Introducing the evidence will make her furious, but it will also plant the seed and hopefully allow her to question and thus become open to the possibility of being BPD.  Introducing the suggestion of BPD will allow the door to open and let the court know how children of BPD parents suffer.  Hopefully the court will recommend my daughter be evaluated.  This strategy isn't guaranteed, but it is what I hope to be able to do.

The first time I met my future son-in-law, he rolled his eyes at just about everything I said.  I dressed him down for being rude and reminded him that as a member of the military, he should hold himself to a higher standard.  Truthfully, I don't know much about him except that his mother died of Lewey Body Demention in her late 50's.  He had a genetic test and has a 52% probability of having it as well.  My daughter and son-in-law lived together for almost a year but decided to get married so she could get medical benefits.  A year after that they came to me and asked me (actually demanded) that I help pay for their wedding in upper NY.  I took a huge loan from my retirement to help them out.  It was a bizarre situation because no one else at the wedding knew they were already married except me and her brother.  My SIL is a pretty quiet guy and keeps to himself, including his emotions.  One never knows where they stand with him until he lets them know.  I do know that he went to my son at one time and complained about my daughter's behaviors and wanted advice on how to make her stop going after his siblings and drawing them into conflicts.  My son told me he resolved that situation by telling my daughter that whatever she did with her family was none of his business but that it was "hands off" on his.  He has always held a "my family" "your family" position with her and communicated that to us as well. 

After my daughter got pregnant (she was high risk due to an inherited blood disorder) he closed ranks in order to keep her calm and told me not to contact them. I discontinued contact and haven't heard from them since. I only learned of their where they lived through "slips" that my daughter makes on the internet. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I think he believes that if he helps her to get physically healthy (she's overweight and has knee issues) that she will become mentally healthy as well.  That other perspective is that he may be sequestering her away from her family intentionally since he does have an arrogance about his family vs. her family.  As I said, he clearly showed disregard/disrespect to me the first time we met.  Reviewing this, I realize that I know absolutely nothing about my SIL.

He is in the Army and stationed in Hawaii.  I'm considering having each of them served individually and for him, through his Command, who will direct him to resolve this matter.  The benefit of this is that we could stipulate to visitation.  The downside of this is that there would be no directive from a court for evaluation.

My granddaughter is 14 months old.  I learned of her anticipated birthdate through a BabysRUs registry.  I later confirmed her birthdate through state birth records.  We have had no contact and at her age, she wouldn't be cognizant of me or our relationship.  i believe I have a little less than 2 years to pull this together.  Not only do I have a lot of studying ahead of me, I have to find financial resources.  I have a job and a small retirement, but can't risk what I have for attorneys and travel/lodging costs.  I see a GoFundme or a YouCaring page in my future.

Thank you for the resource referrals.  I will not let them sit idle.

In the meantime, I will take the advice of all and share my situation with the boards recommended by both you and ForeverDad.

Thanks again to all of you. I hope to converse with you again.

[ForeverDad]

Hopefully the court will recommend my daughter be evaluated.  This strategy isn't guaranteed, but it is what I hope to be able to do.

Perhaps she has already presented claims that you are a terrible or even dangerous grandparent.  (Typically 'actionable' behaviors are substantive child abuse, child neglect or child endangerment.  Note that vague or non-specifc or unsubstantiated allegations ought to be set aside.)  If not already then when you get involved and try to make your case she will counter with claims and allegations.

That is your excellent opening to respond strategically.  You may want to say "No I didn't" and "Yes you did".  That alone is essentially unhelpful.  It becomes "he-said, she-said" and the will be inclined to view it as hearsay.

First, have documentation to support your reasons for concern about her behaviors.  Link that to her blocking access and isolating you from your granddaughter.

Second, when you get the opening, probably when she makes allegations against you or wants you to be evaluated, then ask that you BOTH be evaluated, probably husband too.  Don't let you be the only one scrutinized, otherwise the professionals will continue ignoring the real "elephant in the room".

After my daughter got pregnant (she was high risk due to an inherited blood disorder) he closed ranks in order to keep her calm and told me not to contact them.

Isolation, while perhaps begun with good intentions, is very sabotaging in a dysfunctional relationship.  People with BPD (and other acting-out PDs) use Isolation as a Control Tactic.  Now SIL doesn't get healthy support from family and friends.

By the way, if she is seeking to have a friend legally recognized with grandparent status, is she obligated to notify you of the proceedings?

[livednlearned]

Are you seeking visitation only? Or are you planning to seek custody?

EDITED to ADD: I am putting myself in the shoes of the other parent. If your D has maligned you to SIL, there is a very good chance he may see you as a justified threat. It's common for people with high-conflict personalities to recruit negative advocates. Your D may claim that you were abusive, as FD mentions above.

My ex did this with me. He claimed his parents were abusive and after meeting them once, he split them back and I never interacted with them after that. Having no reason to doubt him, I believed him.

It's great that HI is very pro-grandparent. The problem is the way people with BPD manipulate the legal system to their advantage. I hope you find a good lawyer who has experienced a similar case to this, and understands how to put together a strategy.

[ForeverDad]

In a less imperfect world and with less unbalanced persons, you would share information with your daughter and son-in-law.  Sadly, it's not and she's not.

If there is any hope you can reach out to them and use communication skills outlined here - SET, DEARMAN, BIFF, etc - then that should be attempted first and whenever the opportunity arises.  Charging in would naturally get their defenses up, reactions and overreactions.  The legal format is by historical nature adversarial, often it is win or lose.  A person with BPD will see it as "all or nothing" and the biased perception would be "all for me and nothing for you".  So if there's any hope the current blocked status can be handled in a less confrontational, less triggering way, then that is the optimal approach.

Facing the facts, you are already blocked and the danger of the nicey-nice approach is that you may keep trying it for too long and you could lose your window of opportunity if meanwhile the court action proceeds and moves past you.  So here's another word of advice in your struggle to be an involved grandparent... .

As hard as it is to resist charging forward and telling her, her SIL or the professionals with the court that she has BPD, you must not do so, for various reasons.  As an example, my court calendar extends from 2005 to 2014.  She started out as temporary custodial parent with majority time, then shared parenting with equal time, then non-custodial parent with equal time, then non-custodial parent with minority time.  All these years she has perceived her ever-reduced as my fault.  Yet it was her behaviors that I used in court to get those baby-step improvements.  And court studiously avoided any mention of a diagnostic label.  That has been the experience of most members here.  Sometimes we get a diagnosis but generally not.  And getting a diagnosis is likely to result in a more vehement Denial and increased Obstruction.

First, courts and most professionals generally avoid talking of PDs or making mental health diagnoses.  If she's already been diagnosed then that Label might be considered, but generally they stick with the behaviors and behavior patterns.  You would be wise to do the same.

Second, courts and most professionals will not see you as someone qualified to talk about mental illness.  They don't want you to "play doctor".  (Even if you were a mental health expert and 'qualified' before the court, you'd be seen as an interested party and not impartial.  That's why doctors don't have themselves or their families as patients.)  However, you are able to document the poor behaviors and behavior patterns. Focus on that angle.

Third, she is not listening to you, anything you (try to) tell her would be perceived in a very distorted way due to the intense emotional baggage of the past history between you.  BPD is a an acting-out personality disorder most evident with close relationships.   The common attacks are by blaming, blame-shifting, projection, black-listing, denial, isolation, etc.

Have you also read Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison?

[Thunderstruck]

Here's what I think... .

You are going to the court to ask for something. You can ask for visitation. You will propose a schedule, and your reasoning for why you are asking. Your D has a chance to respond/counter.

If you put in your initial filing that the reason why you are seeking visitation is that you have tried to work it out without court intervention and that your D falsely accuses you of abuse to keep you away, then if she countered with abuse claims it kind of negates her response.

You can provide to the court evidence of Ds BPD. Maybe the court believes you and maybe they don't. They might not believe you (or care very much), especially if your D is countering that you are the one with the PD. She is very likely to do that, BPDs tend to project a lot. The judge won't like the "he said/she said" and will probably just either ignore it or order everyone to be evaluated. A psych eval is costly and lengthy. The judge will most likely just want you and D to work out an agreement without having to go that far.

Reading through the responses again, I think ForeverDad said kind of the same thing.  

As for getting D evaluated or in therapy... .The courts don't handle mental illness well. At all. Without a diagnosis, it would be very difficult to get her in therapy. And getting the diagnosis is very very difficult to do. BPDs can manipulate courts and therapists for short times. Then they usually quit just before being "discovered". As a parent you have some pull in getting her evaluated or into T which is a plus (versus the rest of us who are usually dealing with an ex-spouse). You'll have to look more into strategies on how to have adult children evaluated (that's where those parents of children with BPD boards would come in handy).  

[qcarolr]

It is extremely difficult or impossible to get an adult child committed by the court to therapy. That is the only forced option when you are dealing with an adult. This path often damages the parent/child relationship further .Benefiting from treatment ultimately is the the choice of the individual.

When my daughter has been court ordered to do treatment she does not participate and gets nothing from it except increased hate toward the legal system. She has received these orders under probation for DUI and domestic violence related charges like harassment. If she chooses to show up it has never lasted more than 6-8 weeks. She has always ended up serving out her sentence with jail time with her probation revoked.

qcr

[EvolvingMom]

ForeverDad:  Really good points regarding trying communication first.  I don't know her specific address but can get that through a PI.  It will cost a few dollars, but doable.  I suspect that the communication will be ignored, but if tracked for delivery, can be used in court that attempts have been made.  I mention court again, because I know my daughter and know that this is where it will end up eventually.  Although, if a petition is served on SIL's command, he could be ordered to resolve the matter and set a visitation schedule since the Army is family-oriented.  I also like the baby-steps approach.  Perhaps instead of asking for evaluation, which would be costly to me only because she gets VA benefits and has TriCare, I should let her seek that and then counter with asking the same for her.  Evidence is available through her brothers and also people she went to school with who can testify about the things she's said/done.  I can document reckless behaviors and poor choices over the years that have cost me a lot of money.  And, by admitting this, I am also admitting that I was a Rescuer.  So, that makes me not the best parent, but it was a learned parenting structure.  My mother was a Rescuer. 

My daughter is asserting that I was an abusive mother.  It never happened and her brothers will substantiate that.  In fact they're inclined to let people know that she was the aggressor and abuser.  However, I don't want to get into a he said/she said.  I simply want to assert that it would be in the best interests of the child.  I know my D will assert a lot of things to the court that are unsubstantiated and ridiculous. One good example of that is when she cut me out of her life, telling me she "had been thinking about it for a long time".  No real reason.  I gave her a cooling off period for a few months and then for her birthday I sent her a cook book by Ann Romney.  It was an autographed book and even more special because Mitt Romney happened to show up to the signing and so I got both their signatures.  I bought several copies for the women I was close to in my life, including one of my DILs.  All appreciated it except my daughter who went onto FB and told all of her friends that I had sent her a "religious" book and that I had been trying to force her into a religion she wanted no part of. Not knowing the truth, her "friends" encouraged her to destroy the book.  I reached out to one of her friends who is also a FB  friend of mine and told him the truth.  He laughed his head off.  I didn't find it funny.  This is indicative of the delusional and hateful world she lives in.  When we were communicating, I would get a phone call at least once a week telling me how she wanted to beat the *!(%# out of someone in the Walmart parking lot because they parked too close to her car and either scratched it or she couldn't get into the car.  Yes, there are experiences where she has gone back into the store and had people paged over the intercom to seek them out so she could scream at them.  After she cut me out of her life, I told my son that I missed my daughter, but I didn't miss her behaviors and, for some time, I was conflicted about wanting her back in my life.

Livednlearned:  I am seeking visitation only.  I want my gdau to know that I am not evil person her mother will try to make me out to be.  Also, when she gets older, she will need someone to look toward for mental refuge.  I know she will migrate toward my SIL for that support but may find that he has "motives" for keeping me away from her. After all, isolating me away from them could work in his favor if he ever decides to leave my daughter and may already be planning to rely on mental illness as an argument for custody.  This is another reason I want to pursue visitation. 

Thunderstruck:  Both you and FD have given me much food for thought.  I am going to print this post out and do some self-assessment and re-evaluate my approach.  I am a paralegal and am not stymied by the court system.  Although, I am not familiar with the court system in Hawaii and that could be a little daunting.  I supported (rescued) my D in her first marriage and wrote all of her legal motions and arguments for her divorce.  It resulted in a nice monetary award for my D before it went to trial and then failed there because I wasn't allowed to participate and she couldn't carry it off by herself.  She re-petitioned for some outstanding issues and was well on the way to getting what she wanted and then one day just walked away from it all because she met her current husband.  That had to have been the roughest 4 years of my life. 

Thanks to each of you for your input.  I have a wealth of research and investigation to do before I charge forward on this.  I may have questions and seek further advice as I delve into this and get back to you at a later time.  Each of you have been extremely helpful. 

[ForeverDad]

Remember too to be very careful not to 'apologize' incorrectly, you may be trying to avoid triggering her but could open yourself up to claims you admitted doing wrong.  Shift what you say or write from your actions to her perceptions.  And try to shift the focus from her perceptions and feelings to what is positive for granddaughter.

Very risky:  I am sorry for doing anything that hurt you... .

Probably okay:  I am sorry you feel that I did anything wrong or hurtful... .

So with the package are you thinking of sending normal grandma gifts for your granddaughter, clothing and/or toys?

[GaGrl]

Check on how the military situation could affect a court filing. A member of the military retains his/her state of residency no matter where they are posted, I.e. votes in state of residence by absentee ballot, maintains drivers license in state of residence.  Same with military spouse/dependents.

Your SIL and daughter may not be legal residents of Hawaii; therefore, a grandparent visitation order might be dismissed as not applying to a non-Hawaii resident.

(My DH is a former Army officer.)

[ForeverDad]

Check on how the military situation could affect a court filing. A member of the military retains his/her state of residency no matter where they are posted, I.e. votes in state of residence by absentee ballot, maintains drivers license in state of residence.  Same with military spouse/dependents.

Your SIL and daughter may not be legal residents of Hawaii; therefore, a grandparent visitation order might be dismissed as not applying to a non-Hawaii resident.

THIS is the value of peer support.  We've been there, done that.  With so many active members, there's a multitude of responses, and some may be total surprises to us and yet spot on.

In your case, you could try to find out if SIL changed his residency (driver's license, voter registration, house, etc) and whether D's legal residency is linked to his or not, and if not then what 'residency' she has currently.

Clearly, your D is trying to replace you and/or block you, it's not like her friend can't visit or be a sitter, no one has contested that up to this point.

[EvolvingMom]

My D lists her home city/state as SILs on FB.  I'm sure she has not changed her resident state (Utah) with the military.  If that were the case and state residency were in effect, then I would have problems as Utah (her home state) does not recognize GP rights at all.  However, that is not the situation.  Hawaii's GP rights laws simply state that if the child resided in the state for more than 6 months, then a petition could be filed in that state.  My SIL is not deployed and therefore is not protected under Federal law from a lawsuit.  I believe the main reason Hawaii's law is written this way is because of the large number of military personnel stationed in Hawaii by all branches of the military.