About to start divorce process - need advice

[lizzie458]

Hi there, this will be a long post because I'm new to this board and need to provide a context... .and I need help!

Despite my fighting desperately for our marriage and family for three years, it's over. Sad, because 2013 was actually a great year. On the heels of our first separation, stbexH was dx'd BPD and relief washed over me. I finally had some answers as to why our marriage was so high conflict and why he wouldn't comply with counselor's recommendations (we'd been in counseling for 3 years at that point; basically since we got married), why I felt so crazy. I devoured information on BPD and used the tools on this site - was active on the Staying board for a while and it helped tremendously. We even decided to try for a second child (an endeavor in which we were successful). However, taking a very difficult college course in addition to working full time and being a father to our first kiddo was just too much for him because despite working on himself in 2013 (or so it seemed), he'd still never developed any coping skills. I'd become complacent too, and the tools went by the wayside. It wasn't until about May of 2014 that I realized we were back in dysregulation, full bore. Shortly after that, I endured a HUGE health crisis (which I am now disabled due to - severe chronic pain, difficulty walking, and a whole host of other issues) and he turned all of his rage fully onto me (it all became about him and "this isn't what I signed up for" yadda yadda, as I'm in the hospital  ). Fast forward almost a year, and after our second separation, a failed attempt at DBT, and an AWESOME T working with us the last few months... .I've decided enough is enough. I'm filing for divorce in about a week or so. I've been getting my ducks in a row for the last month and a half or so - applying for SSDI, exploring which gov't programs I'll need to utilize (sheesh... .that was a hit to my ego), picking a L, strategizing, logging daily happenings, recording convo's (legal in this state), etc.  It just hit me the other day that this site is probably a wealth of information, and I need as much info as I can get! I cannot afford... .my children cannot afford... .to have this divorce proceed without special attention.

A lot of random background on stbexBPDH: he's a high functioning "invisible" BP. Never really had trouble holding down a job (he's got a graduate degree), however he's got a history of conflict at work - he used to schedule meetings with coworkers (and sometimes supervisors) he didn't like, so he could tell them what they were doing wrong. Yeah. I actually got him to knock that off when we were first married because I didn't want him to get fired. Now he mostly lays low at work - they finally promoted him to a lead position after a few years of that (he's a ridiculously high performer in his tedious, repetitive job which doesn't require a lot of thinking outside the box). He's incredibly insecure and threatened by other people living their lives, especially the successful ones. He's extremely negative and catastrophizing. His family of origin is incredibly invalidating and enmeshed - so his issues make a lot of sense. His dad is the king bee, and calls all the shots - he "knows what you want" better than you do. Everyone "reads minds" and is incredibly dramatic. There was a huge family split a few years ago over a safety issue I brought up regarding them babysitting our son (this was a legit safety concern that wasn't personal - I just asked for some babyproofing basically, it should've been no big deal). Several family members still do not speak to me/us. Both parents are PhD psychologists and pastors :-/   StbexBPDH's rage is a huge problem - it's been his main tool to shut me up (I used to cower and drop the subject). He's a very intense person with lots of energy. When he funnels that energy to you (in a good way), he makes you feel like you're the only person in the room. He LOVES to be the center of attention and socialize, but due to his depression, black and white thinking, overgeneralization, personalization (basically all of the 10 forms of twisted thinking), and other issues, he's unable to hold a relationship. Most of his life he's been alone, but yearning for connection. He's had lots of superficial connections over the years (meeting tons of people and "leading" groups in the charity his parents ran), but no core relationships, other than the ones with his family - which are extremely dysfunctional to this day. Despite being a mental health "professional" himself, BPDH has no idea how to parent. He's mostly been copying me, thank goodness. Not that I'm the perfect parent, but at least it's better than his parenting which involves all these arbitrary rules, like our preschooler can only have food when BPDH feels like it. i.e. I once heard my son crying for food, and BPDH saying "you had enough food already this morning!" (it's not like we're rationing food because we can't afford it or something). I asked BPDH why he couldn't have the food, and he reiterated - he already had breakfast, and I just gave him a snack! For some reason, food is a big issue for BPDH. He is a food addict (won't admit this) and porn addict (admits it, but won't work on it). I am worried for our kids for many reasons. They see the way he treats me (silent treatment, interrupting me, his wants come first, even in situations where I have serious, medical NEEDS; and of course the verbal abuse - declaring things like "you make me SICK" unprovoked with the kids around), and our preschooler has experienced so many times the push/pull. BPDH plays intently with him, basically making him fall in love (he goes all out), and then when he's done, he will literally drop him down and walk off without a word. When our boy runs after him, crying for him, he pushes him off, pries his hands off, etc all the while looking disgusted at him, as if to say, "get away from me, this isn't normal" - and sometimes saying things like "I have to go to WORK!" He sets our kids up by leaving his office unlocked, door open... .kids walk in and he yells at them for getting into "his stuff". BPDH has questioned whether our son is "normal" for years (meltdowns, appetite, behavior, developmental milestones, etc you name it, he's doubted it). He pretty much ignores our daughter, or complains when she needs to be held. There has been "grey area" physical abuse with at least one of our kids - I have documented and reported to T. BPDH pretty much doesn't leave the house anymore unless it's to get food. He is an extrovert, but he is depressed, and the anxiety he has over relationships and not understanding how people work, is too much. I demanded domestic violence training/anger mgt training after a recent physical abuse incident which proved progression of his illness, and he agreed, even printed out a list of programs... .and then of course never did anything with it. Our awesome T (we've gone through 6 or so, I can tell she's a good one!) says he is pushing me away and is unable to be in an intimate relationship. She agrees with the previous dx of BPD, and is helping me prepare for the divorce.

He takes everything personally, fabricates "facts" from his emotions, blames me for EVERYTHING that's wrong in his life, and after years of threatening divorce (he's been doing this since we got back from the honeymoon), he has now inched his way (and I've escalated the situation by separating twice, etc) to actually saying he is filing. He's done this several times in the last few months - we even discussed next steps for divorce at our last counseling session. However, I don't believe he will ever file, and I think he won't believe me when I announce that I'm filing (plan to do this in session with our T). I'm a little nervous to see his reaction when he is served with papers. BTW my doctors agree that the majority of my very real physical issues are due to the neuro-emotional connection with this toxic environment. At a minimum, BPDH is stalling/inhibiting my recovery, and at a maximum, he's actually making it worse.

I want my kids to know their dad. But it seems to me that unless/until he gets help, any visitation he has needs to be supervised. I do not trust him to stay with them really at all... .but realistically I'd say the chance of him inflicting big time emotional/verbal/potentially physical abuse and scars spikes after a few hours. He just gets so stressed out very quickly, I cannot imagine him having more than a few hours at a time with them... .especially if he is on his own. Many times he's told me "family time exhausts me". I want him to be able to have an increasing relationship with the kids as he gets help... .but his track record of follow-through is abysmal and realistically he may never get the help he needs. If that happens, I'd like to try to keep them mostly safe from him until they reach the age where, after years of practicing healthy behavior with me (even talking through any issues that might come up between them and him), they can mostly handle themselves. Lord, I wish that could happen... .but truth be told, I'm not sure that's a reasonable goal. Thoughts on that?

T has recommended a home study (BPDH's dad actually does these for a living, so he might be able to fake his way through that) and psychological testing (this sounds less likely for him to be able to fake his way through). What else can I ask for in the divorce to protect my kids? I need ideas, advice, recommendations, of ways to safeguard the kids. I'm definitely going to request an internet filter which emails a third party (though idk who that third party would be - our T maybe?) if illicit material is accessed while either of us is in possession of the kids (I'll put one on my computer too, to look fair). I'd like to try to get him ordered to take a domestic violence/anger mgt class that I sign off on (T said I could try to get that, so he goes to a rigorous program instead of a cheesy one that doesn't help at all), in the very least. Ideally I'd like him to have limited, supervised visitation in the beginning (our kids are still very young, so that helps my case), but idk if I have enough proof of a pattern of behavior for a judge to order that. I and my T see this as a serious problem, but idk how the courts will see it. I did read all of the suggested reading for this board and will send that first article to my L, who said he is familiar with BPD and has seen it a lot over the years in divorce cases (but what does that really mean, you know?). What else? Hit me up. I'm clearly nervous, since I won't be around anymore when he has them. I just want to keep them as safe as possible. Thanks in advance!

[still_in_shock]

Sorry I can't advice on the situation with children involved in the a RS with BPD.

I just wanted to say that I hear you, and can totally relate especially given your health condition... .My story is very similar, but without kids. And the way you've described you HB's behavior is so similar to mine...

I wish you utmost health and strength to get through this the least damaging way. I hope you have your side of the family (parents, siblings) to hold you through it. Hang in there.

[ForeverDad]

Sharing information is vital in a marriage if it is to be healthy and functional.  However, if it is dysfunctional and unhealthy and the relationship has failed then you must be very cautious with what you share as you unwind the relationship.

For example, if you state in MC that you will divorce, what will happen?  (Very good that it is done with the T present.)

• Will he (again) promise to change and beg you to try yet again?



• Will he agree that you should take the lead in parenting?



• Will he agree to short visits?



• Or will he try to make you look worse than him?
  
  (Allegations are common but less likely with a T involved.)



• Will he try to get as much parenting as he can?

Until you get a sense of how he will react or overreact, get your preparations done first.

• Copy or safeguard any important papers such as birth certificates, passports, SSN cards, tax filings, bank and credit account numbers and recent statements.  It is very common for documents to disappear or be withheld.



• Consult with a few family law attorneys.  (T may be able to provide a short list?)  Select one with proactive strategies and experience.



• Money in joint accounts belongs to both spouses and th final split will be determined near the end of the divorce when the financials are resolved.  Generally the advice is to preserve half for yourself, generally by moving your portion to a personal account.  If you are not the working spouse and he is inclined to cut off your money, then you can take more at the start, being able to state it all will be adjusted later in the divorce.  Understand that your spouse may decide to raid and drain the accounts before you have a chance to file.  Determine how you will handle that risk.



• If you can, work out a written list of teh things you two can agree on with the T present.  It may not be enforceable since it is not a court order, but it may give you leverage once you do get before a judge and it may very well be merged into the initial temporary order.



• What you see as needing supervised visitation may not be the same perspective from the professionals at court and children's services.  They often set a high bar for what poor behaviors are 'actionable'.  However, that does not mean you don't try.  Include all your concerns from the start.  You may not get all you ask for, but it documents your concerns and you can build upon that as time goes on.

[livednlearned]

Hi lizzie458,

Your H sounds very similar to my ex -- the "invisible" BPD, which (at least in my case) seems to go with strong narcissistic traits. And I recognize the behavior associated with hospitalization and illness. Anytime I was sick, it was very triggering and stressful for N/BPDx and seemed to become his worst self.

It's going to be helpful for your kids that you learned a lot of tools on the Staying board, and for you as well as you navigate divorce. SET, validation, wisemind, setting boundaries -- these will be useful tools in the divorce as well as longer term when custody is determined. Also, something important to keep in mind --> many people here on this board go through high-conflict cases. However, not everyone with BPD is considered a "high-conflict person" (HCP), although all high-conflict people have a personality disorder. What makes people with PDs high conflict is that they recruit negative advocates, are persuasive blamers, and have a target of blame (you). Do you think your H would be considered a high-conflict person? A good book to read is Splitting:Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD spouse, written by Bill Eddy (co-author is Randi Kreger). He also has a useful website: www.highconflictinstitute.com. Eddy likes to say that people with PDs are not just difficult people, the are the most difficult people. However, there is a perform storm that can make people with PDs become HCPs in the court system. Lucky us  

For most people here, custody orders are more like a marathon than a sprint. Often, right after divorce papers are served, the courts will want to see parents mediate and get a temporary custody order in place. The word "temporary" is misleading as these temp orders tend to get rubber-stamped into permanent orders. Judges figure that anything you agree to must be good enough, and they want kids to have the status quo. So even if it's called a temporary consent or custody order, treat it like the real thing. If you don't get a favorable ruling right away, you'll have to go back and file a motion for modification of custody. In most states, this requires something "substantive" to occur (open to interpretation). It's good that you're getting in the habit of documentation and can record. This will help you show the court what's going on, to avoid the "he said, she said" problem.

I did a webinar with Bill Eddy a while back and he described people with PDs as belonging to 3 types of high-conflict:

*generally cooperative

*not cooperative, not dangerous

*not cooperative, dangerous

How would you describe your H?

From reading your description of context, the positives in your case are:

*your kids are young (tender years bias will probably weigh things in your favor, unless you live in a 50/50 default state like Washington)

*your H is diagnosed BPD (you can bring in expert testimony about the impacts of BPD on children)

*you have learned Staying tools that will be helpful, especially for the kids

*he probably does not want the kids that much (although he may fight you for more time with them)

*you have been documenting

* you have us  

The challenges are:

* in-laws sound high-conflict (they could be recruited as negative advocates)

* in-laws have knowledge of forensic psychology, and will know how the system works, and could meddle in ways that become costly

* BPD's history of seeking treatment could (oddly enough) be a challenge. Courts like to reward parents for trying to get better

* your health (he could say you are not physically strong enough to take care of the kids)

* not enough abuse for the courts to award supervised visitation (sadly, the threshold tends to be high for what is considered tolerable)

In my situation, I left my ex 4.5 years ago. Our initial custody order was 60/40, I had primary physical, and we had joint legal. I contested the joint legal. It took 3 years, but eventually I was awarded full custody and the judge terminated visitation. However, I would describe N/BPDx as "not cooperative, dangerous" and he is a former trial lawyer who represented himself, both helpful and harmful to my case. Helpful because he represented himself and the judge got to see him without a proxy to filter his thinking/behavior. Harmful because N/BPDx filed many, many frivolous filings which became costly.

In some of the cases here, even when the court sets the visitation schedule, the BPD parent continually finds reasons why he/she can't have the kids, so in practice the visitation is much more favorable than what the court awards. This happened in my case. One of the trickiest parts is the legal custody -- in the most high-conflict cases, cooperative parenting is just not possible.

It sounds like that your ex may have an extinction burst if you genuinely plan to file for divorce. If you have threatened divorce before and then reconciled, expect the same behavior (i.e. negotiating more treatment for himself, making promises) and then some. There is something very triggering about having the most personal and intimate issues of your relationship moved to legal language and big envelopes with law firms on the outside. This sunlight can shine good light on the problem and also create some new problems for pwBPD.

Also -- about psychological evaluations. Your ex has already been diagnosed. Do you need a psych eval? They can be expensive.

[lizzie458]

First of all, I apologize for the formatting of my posts-I mostly have to do this on my phone, as he is always in the house and I can't get to my computer.

He will not beg me to take him back. He will try to minimize his issues and potentially make me look bad. If I am able to push with evidence, he will back off. But, he will be passive aggressive in other ways. I might be able to take the lead and parenting, but it will definitely cost me in one way or another. I think he will try to get as much parenting as he can, despite the fact that he cannot handle it. He mostly tries to spend time with our son, not our daughter.

I just found out I cannot freeze our savings account. I really don't want to move half of the money, as that would almost certainly escalate things. He tends to follow my lead with escalation. Several months ago, I had mentioned some parental rights I was aware of because I had asked the lawyer, shortly after that he informed me he had met with "his lawyer."  I doubt he will take any action on his own. That said... .I'm still trying to decide whether it might be a solid choice to move half the $.

He definitely has N traits. I have Splitting on order from my library (should arrive in a few days!). I think he's a HCP: not cooperative, not dangerous. His history of "negotiation" is nil. He puts his foot down and demands his way or the highway. He's a master of projection and deflection. He also knows just what to say and how to act to make himself look good. Our counselor thinks that based on our history of negotiation, mediation will not be effective, and I agree. That's great advice about the temporary custody agreement. I don't know if the counselor ever officially diagnosed him BPD, because he was terrified of having that in his record, as a mental health professional himself. She also seemed to compromise down to "BPD traits" in order to get him on board with therapy. He is smart enough to play the "I'm trying to get help" card; he has done that in the past, despite the fact that the only reason he's in therapy is because I basically forced him to go... .And he refuses to do with the counselors say. These are all reasons why I believe psychological testing could be a win for me. It's covered under insurance without any kind of pre-authorization or anything, so we would only have to pay 20% at the most of the cost. I could be wrong, but I anticipate a huge custody battle. I really hope you're right about how the BP finds reasons to not take the kids. That would be best case scenario. However, I think in this case that has a low probability of happening because when our first was very little, I insisted he be involved because I was working full-time. So he is pretty comfortable taking care of the kids.

I'm nervous. It has now been two days since he threatened to file again, and surprise surprise, nothing has happened. It would be great if he filed, but I don't see that happening. Please keep the advice coming! This is good stuff.

[livednlearned]

Hi lizzie458,

One of the things I realize looking back is that my ex had almost no follow-through. I let myself lose a lot of sleep -- expecting n/BPDx to do what he said he was going to do. But he was largely ineffective at pulling off whatever threat he was on about it at any given time. And he was very high functioning, and plenty bright enough to think about what he was doing and how to get it done properly. Held down a very good job, went to work on time every day, was very punctual, head of his nationwide professional organization, all that.

But in terms of family life and intimate relations, he was all bluster. By bluster, I mean that he would do what he threatened to do, but do it so poorly that it had no impact. Sometimes he would testify in court (representing himself) and his out-loud thinking and cognitive distortions and bad impulses were so bizarre (especially as a lawyer himself) that the judge probably wondered how this seemingly intelligent guy could seem so articulate and yet be so delusional.

Don't hesitate to move half the money in your account. You need that money to support yourself until there is a date to discuss child support and spousal support. It took me 3 months until we had a date on the calendar, and I'm grateful my L told me to withdraw that money in advance so I could pay rent and other bills. It's considered sort of an "advance" on the equitable distribution (or whatever they call it where you live). It's also very common -- in fact, some aggressive lawyers will counsel their clients to drain all the accounts. My L told me that she's had clients who come home to a bare home with nothing, not even the door knobs in the doors. There are no consequences for this, everyone just looks the other way. In fact, I think some judges wonder why people don't take matters into their own hands since there are no ramifications.

There is no way to file for divorce without rattling your ex. And because he is mentally ill, it's not a good idea to tell him in advance. Have a really watertight plan in place for how you will handle things. Like whether he will move out, or you. Have a safety plan just in case, and definitely have some T appointments on your calendar to help you ride the first big set of waves. It can be very tempting to try and put the genie back in the bottle like you've been doing all these years, and that will just make it even worse next time you try to do this again. Read about extinction bursts so you understand what's happening.  

The other thing is to try and get your kids into counseling before you file for divorce. BPD spouses like to either prevent this from happening, or get so involved they push you aside. I made up a lame excuse (putting blame on me) for why S13 needed to see someone. He had some nervous tics and that was the official reason I told N/BPDx he should see someone.

If you do get a psych eval, get the MMPI-2. Anything else will probably not result in a diagnosis. My ex had a psych eval that was dozens of pages long and it amounted to "a PD cannot be ruled out." However, it did provide a very detailed account of the issues that N/BPDx struggles with. Forensic psychologists are well aware when dealing with PDs that they could get sued when called to testify in court. It's a high-risk business and they are understandably risk averse. That's why the MMPI-2 is better. However, your in-laws may know what the short-comings are (all diagnostic tools have shortcomings) and try to minimize the efficacy.

That's why the psych eval should only be one data point in your strategy. Record conversations, keep a journal (somewhere safe) and if you can, get third-party professionals like therapists involved with the kids. And make sure you are involved in selecting these people -- they need to be held in high regard in the court system and understand personality disorders.

You will probably have a high-conflict custody battle -- it might not be as difficult initially. It's enforcing the court order that can keep things going for years. Or modifying custody if you don't get a good settlement.

Since he has not filed, take your time to read Splitting and read about the psychological and emotional stages of divorce here.

You may want to also read A Theory of the Pattern of Blame and High-Conflict Family Law Matters and Personality Disorders to determine the level of risk you face divorcing your spouse and plan accordingly.

[lizzie458]

That's great advice about the testing and getting the kids into counseling. I will def read those articles you linked too!

Devil's advocate here - certain family members and even the past T have been quick to NOT label stbexH BPD, and only say "traits of BPD". When we have separated before and I presented a list of terms for the separation just as a starting point for discussion, stbex balked and was extremely hurt by my "doing everything without him, and just laying it out for him". Of course, he completely blew that out of proportion. But because of that, for example, I'm seriously considering coming into session with a (surface-level) attitude of "I want to do this, but gee let's figure this out together" in the hopes that maybe it will not send him into the stratosphere like it did last time. I can't remember if I've mentioned this, but just a few days ago he said he was filing this week - and even today he told another set of people that we are starting divorce proceedings. I certainly don't want to walk on eggshells, but do you think it's not necessary to try to avoid escalation if possible (even if others think he's "not that bad" - ugh I know how ridiculous that sounds)?  Another example - I think he's planning to refuse to move out. My L says I could get a court order to move him out, but that would for sure embarrass him and bump us up about 10 levels. Another family member says I need him to stay as sane as possible for the kids. Idk. I kind of think that for the most part, he will never be sane. But another part of me thinks I could maybe err on the side of conservative dealings with him, until he really shows his behind and I'm forced to take it up a notch.

He's still paying for us, which is one major reason why I haven't moved the savings yet. But I think if he were to move out, that would likely change. I suppose I have a strong case (not that I need one for anyone, but to present to stbex) that he's saying he will do whatever he needs to on the house with my approval or not (I've already told him I disagree with any expenditures like that). Although on the other hand, my L says home improvements are seen as benefiting both parties (hello, not if they don't monetize - which these ridiculous ones won't) and therefore allowed. He wants to sell the house on the open market ASAP, I want to buy it. Only thing is, I'm going to need time to work out financing.

A note on his follow through. He sounds a lot like your ex, livednlearned! He doesn't seem to understand how things work. He's a career professional, and yet he seemed to think he can list the house without my consent (I'm on the deed); and also thought he'd be forfeiting rights to the property by signing a will and trust (which we'd set up a long time ago and hadn't signed due to his disorganization). And then he seemed to think he had a leg up on me by having his name only on the deed (except he signed a quit claim to add me on the deed - it's complicated because we bought the house while I was in another state in the hospital)... .even though we're married and the money for the down payment came solely from my family. The guy just has no common sense, and zero ability to think critically or logically.

One last thing. In trying to work through the divorce and specifically mediation, the biggest problem I see is that when I present solutions that make sense, he shoots them down because 1) he didn't think of it, and 2) I'm not sure he can even follow logic. I think when I lay things out, "see? 2+2=4" he thinks I'm lying to him or something. I'm trying to get our T on board with presenting some logical solutions so it's not coming from me. Any other way around that that you've found?

[livednlearned]

Devil's advocate here - certain family members and even the past T have been quick to NOT label stbexH BPD, and only say "traits of BPD".

I would estimate only a minority of people here have spouses who are officially diagnosed BPD. There are some who, through the custody evaluation and psychiatric testing (MMPI-2) will get a diagnosis. Courts do not necessarily care about the diagnoses, though -- there are plenty of people who have a mental illness who are good parents, whether it's because they are medicated, seeking treatment, or know their limitations. It's the pattern of behavior that matters, that's why documentation is so important. You have to tell a compelling story about why you want primary physical custody (which you will quite likely get as the mother) or whatever it is you feel is best for the kids.

My ex is an alcoholic, and even with documentation, I still ended up with 60/40 visitation schedule (every other weekend with dad, plus one mid-week overnight) and joint legal custody. My ex at the time had a lawyer who told him to get into therapy and agree to work on his issues. He also agreed in the custody order that he would not drink before or during visitation. This got worked out in mediation -- if it had gone to court, the judge would've liked what N/BPDx was doing. Judges like to believe that divorce is a reset for people, and that everyone should have an opportunity to show they want to be a better parent.  

Ideally, you will get a good agreement the first time around. Eddy writes that only 20% of divorces are high-conflict. He estimates that most of those cases have someone with a PD. High-conflict means that we tend to find ourselves in court before a judge -- courts want to avoid this. They want grown-ups to resolve their own conflicts and do what's best for the kids. If you don't get a good order the first time around, it's not the end of the world, there are protocols in place to modify the order if necessary. The problem is that this can be stressful, expensive, and everything is in the hands of the judge, who might not be effective. Things move incredibly quickly in court -- it's really stunning how such important decisions get made so quickly.

When we have separated before and I presented a list of terms for the separation just as a starting point for discussion, stbex balked and was extremely hurt by my "doing everything without him, and just laying it out for him"... .I'm seriously considering coming into session with a (surface-level) attitude of "I want to do this, but gee let's figure this out together" in the hopes that maybe it will not send him into the stratosphere like it did last tim

You have good instincts! I found some useful tips on Eddy's website about techniques you can use with people who have BPD. I didn't know about BPD when I filed for divorce, but have used some of this on tricky coworkers and also my son (who is highly sensitive). www.highconflictinstitute.com/individuals. Check out the videos halfway down the page if you want to learn more about the techniques -- they're similar to what you're describing.

I think he's planning to refuse to move out. My L says I could get a court order to move him out, but that would for sure embarrass him and bump us up about 10 levels. Another family member says I need him to stay as sane as possible for the kids. Idk. I kind of think that for the most part, he will never be sane. But another part of me thinks I could maybe err on the side of conservative dealings with him, until he really shows his behind and I'm forced to take it up a notch.

One option some members have done here is to take turns living in the house. That wasn't an option in my case, so I'm not sure how it works with kids, or whether it minimizes conflict. I think it's a bit like band-aids -- you can pull it off fast or take a long, slow time. Both are going to be painful  :'(

Keep in mind that if he is talking to a lawyer, most lawyers are ethically bound to represent their clients, and typically give very pro-active advice. It's always possible that your H is planning on taking everything in the savings account. Sometimes, we worry about triggering our ex, and meanwhile they are putting together a plan that can really throw our worlds into chaos.

He wants to sell the house on the open market ASAP, I want to buy it. Only thing is, I'm going to need time to work out financing.

My hunch is that he will focus a lot of his stonewalling here. If he (deep down) does not want majority time with the kids, he may put up a fuss about custody but not too much. This seems to be more typical of BPD dads if past members are any indication. However, your H definitely won't want you to have the house, and the more you show interest, the more he will try to sabotage you. Doesn't mean it's impossible to refi the house in your name, only that there are many many points in a refi where he can stonewall and obstruct you.

One last thing. In trying to work through the divorce and specifically mediation, the biggest problem I see is that when I present solutions that make sense, he shoots them down because 1) he didn't think of it, and 2) I'm not sure he can even follow logic. I think when I lay things out, "see? 2+2=4" he thinks I'm lying to him or something. I'm trying to get our T on board with presenting some logical solutions so it's not coming from me. Any other way around that that you've found?

He is operating from a very fearful place with almost no skills for processing difficult feelings. "No" is a much safer word to him than, "ok" because it makes him feel he has some control. If he's dysregulated, the lack of stable self will feel acute, and on top of it, he recognizes that these conversations are about real (versus perceived) abandonment, with you being the person doing the abandonment. So having a third-party present solutions is more likely to work in your favor. So yes -- trust your instincts. H wants to know what you care about because then he can engage with you emotionally. You can't hide everything you care about, but you can mask it and have someone else present the solution.

[ForeverDad]

Devil's advocate here - certain family members and even the past T have been quick to NOT label stbexH BPD, and only say "traits of BPD".

I would estimate only a minority of people here have spouses who are officially diagnosed BPD. There are some who, through the custody evaluation and psychiatric testing (MMPI-2) will get a diagnosis. Courts do not necessarily care about the diagnoses, though -- there are plenty of people who have a mental illness who are good parents, whether it's because they are medicated, seeking treatment, or know their limitations. It's the pattern of behavior that matters, that's why documentation is so important. You have to tell a compelling story about why you want primary physical custody (which you will quite likely get as the mother) or whatever it is you feel is best for the kids.

Ideally, you will get a good agreement the first time around. The problem is that this can be stressful, expensive, and everything is in the hands of the judge, who might not be effective. Things move incredibly quickly in court -- it's really stunning how such important decisions get made so quickly.

Beware of being an appeaser or giving in too easily.  It's not right for you to give in 90% and your ex give in 10%.  Sadly, court, lawyers and mediators are not that concerned about what is fair.  For them it's a job and they go home to their families at the end of the day.  For you, it's your life and your children's future.  Just as the court would not look badly on your ex for trying to get what ex wants, it wouldn't look badly on you for trying to get what you want either.

If you can't agree on some things, that's okay, don't let him guilt or intimidate you, say those are the things the court will have to decide.  For nearly all of us mediation early in the process (1) was required and (2) so we made a sincere effort but(3) it failed because the ex was still too entitled and controlling at that early stage.

My story... .  I had a 2 year divorce.  We tried mediation right after the temp order was issued but it failed as I expected.  It wasn't until the very end, minutes before the scheduled day-long trial was to begin, that my ex finally agreed to settle.  By then I was ready for trial.  So I felt secure to say, "I the father will be Residential Parent for school purposes or we go in and start the trial and let the judge decide it all."  If I had not set that as one of my boundaries I would never have become RP in Shared Parenting.  Within a couple months I was given one day to register son in my own district due to mother's scenes at school.  If I hadn't become RP then son's school would have been stuck with her.

When we have separated before and I presented a list of terms for the separation just as a starting point for discussion, stbex balked and was extremely hurt by my "doing everything without him, and just laying it out for him"... .I'm seriously considering coming into session with a (surface-level) attitude of "I want to do this, but gee let's figure this out together" in the hopes that maybe it will not send him into the stratosphere like it did last tim

You have good instincts! I found some useful tips on Eddy's website about techniques you can use with people who have BPD. I didn't know about BPD when I filed for divorce, but have used some of this on tricky coworkers and also my son (who is highly sensitive). www.highconflictinstitute.com/individuals. Check out the videos halfway down the page if you want to learn more about the techniques -- they're similar to what you're describing.

Look for ways for him to 'feel' like he won.  Negotiation is an art.  One way to to ask for more (or hold extra in reserve) then give back some of the excess.  Another way is to make it appear you want lots of things then if you trade away some of it (that you don't really care about) then he will feel he won.

I think he's planning to refuse to move out. My L says I could get a court order to move him out, but that would for sure embarrass him and bump us up about 10 levels. Another family member says I need him to stay as sane as possible for the kids. Idk. I kind of think that for the most part, he will never be sane. But another part of me thinks I could maybe err on the side of conservative dealings with him, until he really shows his behind and I'm forced to take it up a notch.

One option some members have done here is to take turns living in the house... .I think it's a bit like band-aids -- you can pull it off fast or take a long, slow time. Both are going to be painful  :'(

Keep in mind that if he is talking to a lawyer, most lawyers are ethically bound to represent their clients, and typically give very pro-active advice. It's always possible that your H is planning on taking everything in the savings account. Sometimes, we worry about triggering our ex, and meanwhile they are putting together a plan that can really throw our worlds into chaos.

Yes, while you're trying to be fair and do all the right things, a disordered spouse is likely to do a lot of wrong moves and not get in trouble with the court.  Sad but true.

As for taking turns in the house, I believe that is called helicopter parenting?  I view this as a very short term or stop-gap solution.  First, it means there would be 3 homes to maintain, yours, your ex's and the one with the children.  That's probably not good for the kids and surely not good for the finances, well, not unless the family is wealthy.

He wants to sell the house on the open market ASAP, I want to buy it. Only thing is, I'm going to need time to work out financing.

My hunch is that he will focus a lot of his stonewalling here. If he (deep down) does not want majority time with the kids, he may put up a fuss about custody but not too much. This seems to be more typical of BPD dads if past members are any indication. However, your H definitely won't want you to have the house, and the more you show interest, the more he will try to sabotage you. Doesn't mean it's impossible to refi the house in your name, only that there are many many points in a refi where he can stonewall and obstruct you.

A disordered parent can easily obstruct the sale of the home or the refinancing of the mortgage.  Believe me, if he wants to sell quickly and you need more time, there's no way the court wouldn't give you more time and if that wasn't enough, then get more time.  Repeat, he cannot force you to sell quickly, not unless you sign something obligating yourself to too little time to finance or something.  Around here our problems are that the disordered spouse is the one who stalls and obstructs.  And court could give a hoot.

Now is the time to shift yourself into Proactive Mode.  It's okay to be a protective Mama Bear.  You don't have to be overly timid of his shadow anymore.  After all, his cage will get rattled anyhow, so pick and choose carefully what you think is worth rattling his cage.  Make it worth it.

One last thing. In trying to work through the divorce and specifically mediation, the biggest problem I see is that when I present solutions that make sense, he shoots them down because 1) he didn't think of it, and 2) I'm not sure he can even follow logic. I think when I lay things out, "see? 2+2=4" he thinks I'm lying to him or something. I'm trying to get our T on board with presenting some logical solutions so it's not coming from me. Any other way around that that you've found?

He is operating from a very fearful place with almost no skills for processing difficult feelings. "No" is a much safer word to him than, "ok" because it makes him feel he has some control. If he's dysregulated, the lack of stable self will feel acute, and on top of it, he recognizes that these conversations are about real (versus perceived) abandonment, with you being the person doing the abandonment. So having a third-party present solutions is more likely to work in your favor. So yes -- trust your instincts. H wants to know what you care about because then he can engage with you emotionally. You can't hide everything you care about, but you can mask it and have someone else present the solution.

Trust your gut.  If it feels wrong to give in on something, then don't. Or at least give yourself some time to ponder it away from the pressure of the moment.  Otherwise you may regret it in later years.  After all, it's okay for you to stand up for yourself and your children.  It's okay to say 'No' too.

[lizzie458]

Thank you guys so much! This is really helping me prepare, and boosting my confidence   

Stbex filed today! I'll admit I'm a little surprised he actually did it - this is the first thing he's followed through on in 5 years    But seriously. He is actually using the free lawyer service through his company... .and my high powered L has never heard of his L (this is a fairly small town, so I believe there could be a network of "the usuals" that this guy is not a part of). H is happy as punch, and it seems as though he actually thinks we can resolve this quietly in mediation. He is SO blind to his own dysfunction, it's really something. He asked me later today where the $3k went from our savings acct. Um... .my L... .? Several weeks ago, he "offered" to ask if I could use the same "free" L as him so we could save $. I mean, he's a penny pincher to the extreme, but it's just laughable how out of touch with reality this man is.

That's great advice to try to conceal what is important to me. Really, everything is important... .but meh. I guess I'll figure something out. I'm currently playing the part of the surprised wife, who's scared of litigation, so lawyered up because she doesn't want to be taken advantage of. I don't think he has a clue at the level of preparation and strategization (is that a word?) that's been going on. I will play that card when I remove half of the money in the acct - I just have to find the right time to do it. I'm thinking right after the session with our T next Monday... .we need to discuss housing during that session, and if I can get him to agree to leave the house (yeah, right) I can pull it out because "I didn't know what's changing and what's not - I'm just on lockdown mode, that's all. I'll gladly return anything that's ruled not mine if we decide on it." - something like that.

I did a great thing by traveling out of state to see his family a few weeks ago. It was hell for me, but I knew he wanted the kids there and there's no way I was letting them go alone with him... .and I didn't think I could get away with not going and keeping the kids in state... .so I told him I knew it was important to him that his family see the kids, sucked it up, and went. I think he bought it and saw it as a sign of good faith.

Though I'd like him to stay smug, self-righteous, etc like he is right now, I just realized that if he does begin to unravel and dysregulate, it could work to my advantage. Like livednlearned's exH, he could very well show his behind (hopefully in court).

My dad and brother are considering buying the house from him as soon as they can, since it will take time for me to finance (the mortgage is actually completely on him because I was in the hospital out of state when we bought it). I'm open to leaving, it's just me being disabled with two very small kids and broke as a joke is not an ideal moving situation. My son is very emotionally high needs, so this is going to be hard enough on him as it is. That was also great advice to get him into T ASAP.

I sent the article from Eddy to my L and asked him to read it because, though I'm sure he has extensive experience in high conflict divorces, it describes stbexH to a tee, especially the lying, projection, and blaming.  We'll see where we go from here! There's no way H will agree to my visitation; M, W, Fri 8am-12pm SUPERVISED visitation; Sat 3pm-7pm SUPERVISED visitation. What do y'all think about the visitation? I have photos of "grey area" abuse of our son (he pinched him so hard he broke the skin) from Jan of this year, and I have him on record (recorded several convos, legal in my state) admitting to escalating physical abuse of our son (again, grey area - stuff like dropping the baby down on the bed a little too hard) since his birth, as well as animal abuse. I also have him admitting to bizarre stuff like telling me to "get the f*** out" with our toddler son and go to my family's house 9 hours away through icy mountain passes in the dead of winter while I was 38 weeks pregnant and still severely disabled (severe chronic pain, affected gait, high level of narcotics, etc). The only arguments he has are: I've had to leave the kids with him for up to 2-3 hrs at a time while I go to medical appointments because we're new in town and I couldn't find reliable care; and my disability/medications (which I was told he can't use against me - I'm not worried about this anyway because I'm the primary caregiver as it is. Although my mom did move in about two months ago and is helping now). Any thoughts on any of that?

[livednlearned]

You have the tender years bias working in your favor, and you're the primary caregiver by status quo. If you're in a small town, chances are the judges are more or less conventional and believe it's best for young kids to be with mom. So that will probably get you majority time.

With supervised visitation, it seems like it is so open to interpretation. In the county where I filed, there is a lot of poverty, and with that comes a lot of really sad custody stories. I got the feeling that it takes a lot to get supervised visitation here. However, in a court where neglect or abuse is less common, the judge may be more inclined to order supervision based on your documentation.

You may want to seriously consider a custody evaluation -- that gives you more time to put your concerns in front of  a third-party professional. More time than you will get in court. There are always risks to having third parties involved, for exactly the reasons you mentioned above. Your ex could snow the evaluator and charm the pants off them. It gives you a chance, though, to talk to someone who will testify after shining light on the issues you're concerned about. A custody evaluation will also present an opportunity to have the MMPI-2 done (on both of you). This can be expensive. I never had a CE -- some have reported it can cost up to 5K to have one done. It's expensive, but going broke seems to be common among many of us here.   

It's important to get the message across that you want your kids to have a relationship with dad, but safety is of the utmost concern. Without the first part, you'll look like a an alienating parent, and that will go over like a lead balloon in court. You'll end up looking like the problem parent.

[ForeverDad]

There's no way H will agree to my visitation; M, W, Fri 8am-12pm SUPERVISED visitation; Sat 3pm-7pm SUPERVISED visitation. What do y'all think about the visitation?

Are you talking about every M, W, F?  Why not Tu, Th?  Don't start with an offer that is too fair.  You have to give yourself room to negotiate, or in our cases, appease.

Are you talking about every Sat?  I am a firm believer in visitation utilizing some aspect of alternate weekends.  Why?  If you're obligated to providing visitation every weekend, then how would you be able to travel away for the weekend to relative's weddings, family gatherings or other events?  If he got only half the weekends then you'd always have half of them free for your activities with the children.  If something was on his visitation weekend then you could have the order written so two weekends would be swapped.

And why mornings?  Does he work 2nd or 3rd shift?  You probably shouldn't cut into his work schedule.  That may give him an 'excuse' to work less, earn less and try to pay less child support.

[ForeverDad]

You may want to seriously consider a custody evaluation -- that gives you more time to put your concerns in front of  a third-party professional. More time than you will get in court. There are always risks to having third parties involved, for exactly the reasons you mentioned above. Your ex could snow the evaluator and charm the pants off them. It gives you a chance, though, to talk to someone who will testify after shining light on the issues you're concerned about. A custody evaluation will also present an opportunity to have the MMPI-2 done (on both of you). This can be expensive. I never had a CE -- some have reported it can cost up to 5K to have one done. It's expensive, but going broke seems to be common among many of us here. 

It's important to get the message across that you want your kids to have a relationship with dad, but safety is of the utmost concern. Without the first part, you'll look like a an alienating parent, and that will go over like a lead balloon in court. You'll end up looking like the problem parent.

LnL, like most here, has Been There, Done That.  We can look back on our divorce experiences and see where we did well and where we could have done better.  So much of the time we're up against the default policies and procedures of court.

As an example, my ex was facing a trial in county court for Threats of DV.  My calling and involving the police was what triggered our separation.  Well, as soon as she got out on Monday she rushed over to family court and tried to make me look worse than her by seeking an ex parte (emergency) for protection, including herself and our preschooler.  A couple weeks later I was able to appear in the follow-up hearing to hear both sides.  Since she had made allegations against me, CPS stood up and stated their conclusions, the investigator said, We have 'No Concerns'.  So our son was excluded from the order and a temp parenting schedule set.  Though her case was listed on her case form, the magistrate asked one question, What are your work schedules?  I said I had a regular 5 day work schedule.  She said she 'worked from home'.  (She earned about $100 or so per month and my protection in the other court gave me possession of the house.  )  So the magistrate looked at only the surface, our schedules, and made a default/standard ruling... .she got temp custody and temp majority time and moved into a battered women's shelter for the next couple months until she could get subsidized housing.  In an ironic twist of fate its name was House of Peace but I was the one who finally had peace.

For most of us the courts don't want to dig into the details.  They assume both parents are normal and okay parents.  Their goal is to pooh-pooh the heightened emotions and conflict, expecting that once the divorce is over it will all calm down.  That works for 80-90% of the cases, but ours are the exceptions.  So who will lookat and report the in-depth issues?  A Custody Evaluator.  So typically getting a good, experienced, perceptive Custody Evaluator known for making solid evaluations and not being gullible, fooled or biased.  Be aware, there are good CE's and lousy CE's.  If you end up using one, choose well.

[lizzie458]

What is the actual procedure for a CE?  What's it like? How do I go about finding a good Evaluator? Pretty sure this is exactly what H's dad dies for a living as a forensic psychologist.  Because of that and the fact that he can probably  fake his way through it, I am leaning more toward the MMPI-2.

How much contact did you have with your L? I just got served with papers where stbex is trying to get by with stuff right out the gate, my ex refuses to get out of the house... .and now my L says a meeting will have to wait til the week after next. I'm trying to hammer out temp orders (custody, spousal support, house) and terms for divorce. I wonder if he won't have time for this. He's very familiar with BPD... .he's the perfect atty in every other way.  But if this will require lots of work and emergency phone calls/meetings, maybe I'm better off with a more available L? Thoughts on that?

[livednlearned]

What is the actual procedure for a CE?  What's it like? How do I go about finding a good Evaluator? Pretty sure this is exactly what H's dad dies for a living as a forensic psychologist.  Because of that and the fact that he can probably  fake his way through it, I am leaning more toward the MMPI-2.

Usually the MMPI-2 or some kind of psych eval is part of a custody evaluation. You need a forensic psychologist who is trained to do the MMPI-2 -- not all forensic psychologists do them. Some do these reports that don't result in a diagnosis. Do you live in an area where there will be a pool of psychologists to choose from? Ugh. And how to find one who is not a colleague, who could be swayed one way or the other. You may want to make the argument that for reasons of conflict of interest, a special process for selecting the CE is put in place. If you just want the psych eval, that may be a bit trickier to do, especially if you only want it for him. You might need to make a case for why it's necessary, and bring up some of his history. Otherwise it might look like you're trying to get even, instead of having legitimate concerns about his mental stability. I was able to get one after my ex had a psychotic episode. It was pretty obvious to everyone he needed to have one done (he blamed it on prescription pills and alcohol).

About the CE procedure -- in my case, everything was either a standalone motion or a bunch of things were piled into one motion. You might live somewhere where they have a Motion for Custody Evaluation. That might be something you do during mediation. It might also be something you can start now -- good to talk to your L about it. When I was trying to figure out how it all worked, I actually looked up training manuals for CEs in my state to see how the system worked. They had the manuals online.

How much contact did you have with your L? I just got served with papers where stbex is trying to get by with stuff right out the gate, my ex refuses to get out of the house... .and now my L says a meeting will have to wait til the week after next. I'm trying to hammer out temp orders (custody, spousal support, house) and terms for divorce. I wonder if he won't have time for this. He's very familiar with BPD... .he's the perfect atty in every other way.  But if this will require lots of work and emergency phone calls/meetings, maybe I'm better off with a more available L? Thoughts on that?

It depends on how serious the stuff is he's trying to get away with. Try to stay centered right now -- I know it's hard. It's going to feel like he's making a grab for things, but everything will get negotiated at the first mediation. He may not move out, and that can require an emergency order. In which case, your L needs to respond promptly.

For everything else, as long as your L responds promptly, it's reasonable that things will take some time, including getting a meeting on the calendar. The first couple of weeks/months are really nuts with lots of high emotion. You start to feel the instability of what is going to be a big transition. I wish it were otherwise -- it never seems to go that way when there is mental illness like BPD involved. Keep in mind that even low-conflict divorces can be emotional.

Where I live, the person who files says a bunch of things. And then the other person files a counter claim and says things too. These are typically technical pieces that struck me more like a formality. N/BPDx, being a lawyer, wrote some really crazy and emotionally upsetting things. My L told me the judge doesn't read this stuff and everyone in family law court expects that the couple will be a bit wacky (like FD said). Except we know that the wackiness is more than that -- its abuse and negligence and is permanent. You might want to ask your L if you need to draft a response that she will then use in the counter claim.

I can't say that I was very grounded during this time, but looking back, I wish I had paced myself and had some better skills for taking care of myself. This will be a hard year for you, so no better time than the present to learn some wisemind if you can. The kids are also going to feel the tension and anxiety, and it helps if you can be centered and present when you're with them. Of course, this is all hard to do. 

And you have us    so that will help in terms of peer support.

[lizzie458]

Do you live in an area where there will be a pool of psychologists to choose from? Ugh. And how to find one who is not a colleague, who could be swayed one way or the other. You may want to make the argument that for reasons of conflict of interest, a special process for selecting the CE is put in place. If you just want the psych eval, that may be a bit trickier to do, especially if you only want it for him. You might need to make a case for why it's necessary, and bring up some of his history. Otherwise it might look like you're trying to get even, instead of having legitimate concerns about his mental stability. I was able to get one after my ex had a psychotic episode. It was pretty obvious to everyone he needed to have one done (he blamed it on prescription pills and alcohol).

About the CE procedure -- in my case, everything was either a standalone motion or a bunch of things were piled into one motion. You might live somewhere where they have a Motion for Custody Evaluation. That might be something you do during mediation. It might also be something you can start now -- good to talk to your L about it. When I was trying to figure out how it all worked, I actually looked up training manuals for CEs in my state to see how the system worked. They had the manuals online.

This is good stuff. Yes, I think there will be a pool to choose from. Though it's not big and has a small town feel where everybody knows everyone else, it's still a metro area. Thankfully his family does not live around here; we moved away from them. If my L recommends it, I'm fine with doing a psych eval as well, our T even said that could help because they'll be able to compare and see that one of us is stable and consistent, and the other is not. Of course, I'm a little paranoid still that they could uncover some sort of crazy I thought was normal in myself! Haha 

Thankfully, my L has been on top of everything. I've got the first chunk of paperwork kind of under control, but am struggling a little with the motion for temporary orders (housing, custody, finances). I'm having to fill out a statement of why H needs to be removed from the home. L said to give him everything, so it's a bit nervewracking trying to be exhaustive with this paperwork, while still keeping a daily log of everything, staying on top of my and the kids' daily activities, and everything else. I don't want to sound nit picky, but as a non, I sometimes forget that "normal" things in our house... .well, they're not normal. I don't know if it will be enough to tell them about his rages and paranoia, going through my personal belongings and mail after I've asked him repeatedly to stop, valuation/devaluing of the kids is causing them emotional turmoil, DS3 in particular is prone to meltdowns when he doesn't see H on a super regular basis anymore (because we're not together and we're kind of following an informal visitation sort of schedule right now) and yet H is still in the house. I'm sure I'm forgetting some of the "normal" stuff in our house... .I'm also struggling with whether or not to include things as old and dark as him soliciting a prostitute before our marriage (relating to his pornography addiction, which I suppose could be categorized with sex addiction). That is sure to set him off.

This whole thing started off all ho-hum when stbex filed for divorce one day (after another self-righteous speech, of course)... .and then was totally happy, came home trying to "work with me"... ."we really don't want to go to trial, that won't be useful or good for anyone" (almost a hint of 'you better not, if you know what's good for you, because I have dirt on you' - which I have no idea what that would be... .but anyway), trying to use counseling to prep for mediation so it's faster, etc. He has begun to escalate, however. About 12 hours after our first "mediation prep" counseling session, stbex changed his mind about mediation. He approached me and said it's not wise for us to do anything without someone in the room who knows the law, because T and I were totally wrong about this one visitation piece he really wanted and we'd both said we didn't think it was the way he thought it was (he wanted weeks for summer vacation, in addition to regular visitation - we'd both heard our state has gotten away from that and now tries to keep it even all year long (except holidays)... .anyway). I told him Ok, he kept talking about how wrong I was, so I got annoyed and told him that was his perception, immediately said we don't have to talk about this anymore, and I won't, you want to go to mediation, let's go. Well, I'd made an appt to get our son in to see T for the first time (we'd discussed this in session a few weeks or months ago, it might've even been a few times), and of course forgot to tell him about until the day of. I immediately told him when I saw it on the calendar and he flipped out. First words out of him were basically "you are not sharing information, I will notify my L of this." I said, whoa whoa whoa we had talked about this before, but if you want me to cancel I will. He said, "I was not involved, cancel it." I ask him when he'd like to discuss this, since I still would like T for our son, he of course tells me to email him why and he will think about it.   Now, I know that was a mistake and I won't make it again - from here on out everything regarding the kids has to be run by him from scratch (and, ostensibly the same from his side). I just love how he pounced the minute he could. Not surprising at all. He then took the liberty of emailing me about it with his L on copy. Yeah. Of course in the email he states that he has no objection at all to T for DS (while we were texting I'd asked why anyone would not want something that is beneficial to their child (which they previously agreed to), but that when we talked about it in T this week for one minute (it was several weeks ago, and not one minute) it was a nebulous thing (not that nebulous, we'd said "once divorce is filed for, we will want to get our son in for T" implying we'd bring him to our T (since she works with kids)) and he wants to know why I want to put him in now vs. any other time. He's trying to CYA. I sent the whole thing to my L in an email, even though I feel extremely dumb about the whole thing, and asked him how I should respond. So while that is pending, stbex barges in while I'm putting the kids down (they're almost asleep) "kissing them goodnight". I asked him to please not interrupt actual bedtime in the future, he starts talking about his "rights" to kiss them goodnight. I said it was disruptive, he tried to talk over me, I shut the convo down.

Questions here.

1) When he pulls moves like the goodnight thing, what should I do? I am reluctant to say anything to him at all anymore without L's approval, but I don't see how that's feasible when you've got stbex wildin' out like this.

2) Would you "lay the smack down" by submitting this motion for protective order with all the nasty little details like I mentioned earlier? My gut reaction is to do it and disclose everything and let the court (L's, whatever) sort it out. I'm not responsible for his behavior. I know he will dysregulate and freak no matter what... .but if it was you (or has been you), did you try to spare your kids (and yourself?) his worst dysregulation by just sucking it up and letting him stay in the house with you until the divorce is finalized? If he gets kicked out, he will flip. I have a family member who freaked when I mentioned the protective order, thinks it is not appropriate in our situation because he's not physically abusive (he has done escalating physical abuse on our son which so far has still remained on the blackish side of the gray area, but she thinks that falls under "normal everybody-has-a-bad-day-type parenting stuff". She knows the intimate details of our situation, but I think she is having a hard time realizing she's not the one in my shoes... .she has her own issues in recognizing what's healthy and what's not. She thinks I'm escalating things unnecessarily and it will bite me in the end. Thoughts on that one?

3) Would you give one last chance for stbex to agree to whatever in mediation, before you pull out the big guns? Why/why not?

4) What are the chances he could get on here with a fake profile and read my posts? I doubt he would, but it's worth asking.


My copy of "Splitting" which should've arrived a WEEK ago from another library came up MISSING! Can you believe that? Ugh that's annoying to say the least.

[lizzie458]

There's no way H will agree to my visitation; M, W, Fri 8am-12pm SUPERVISED visitation; Sat 3pm-7pm SUPERVISED visitation. What do y'all think about the visitation?

Are you talking about every M, W, F?  Why not Tu, Th?  Don't start with an offer that is too fair.  You have to give yourself room to negotiate, or in our cases, appease.

Are you talking about every Sat?  I am a firm believer in visitation utilizing some aspect of alternate weekends.  Why?  If you're obligated to providing visitation every weekend, then how would you be able to travel away for the weekend to relative's weddings, family gatherings or other events?  If he got only half the weekends then you'd always have half of them free for your activities with the children.  If something was on his visitation weekend then you could have the order written so two weekends would be swapped.

And why mornings?  Does he work 2nd or 3rd shift?  You probably shouldn't cut into his work schedule.  That may give him an 'excuse' to work less, earn less and try to pay less child support.

So he actually told me in counseling he wanted 3-5 days per week of visitation, 8-12 (it was like he read my mind   ) and Saturday overnights. Plus several weeks in the summer to "vacation, you know... .visit... .um... .family or whatever". He knows I have issues with his family of origin (he does too) because of their enmeshment, crazy dynamics, and things like "no" is not respected in that house. MIL is prone to angry outbursts where she breaks dishes, BIL (not their son; he married in like I did) flipped out on the whole extended family a few years ago with infants in the room, cursing out stbex for something he actually didn't happen to do... .it was all a simple misunderstanding, but he never apologized... .SIL still doesn't talk to me because I asked for FIL and MIL to implement a pretty standard safety measure in their house if they were going to watch our then toddler on a regular basis... .all things that I know no court will give a hoot about. And you know what, if they want to visit here for a few weekends a year or whatever that's fine. But a few weeks in that toxic environment... .that is something I will fight against because I really don't think it's good for the kids at such a young age where their values are still so malleable.

Anyway, you're right, in the end alternate weekends would be a good idea, and no overnights for now since they're still babies. He does work 2nd shift, so that's why we're discussing mornings. L thinks stbex's proposal is a bit too much given our kids' ages.

What say you on the summer vacation thing? Could've sworn the other L I consulted said they're getting away from that as visitation becomes more equitable and regular, and that it's more for if someone moves away. Of course, stbex insists it is absolutely legit and will be awarded by any judge 

So if, in the end, I would be ok with say 2 days a week, 8-12 and every other Sat night 3-7 (for now, since they're so young and still sleeping in bed with us... .or me, at least); what would you present that wouldn't look ridiculously stingy?

How likely is it I'll get supervised visitation ordered with a BPD who is high functioning in most areas, but has a porn addiction and some other parenting issues? I'm thinking I'll def need a CE and psych eval, but even with that... .will that work, do you think?

[livednlearned]

Hi lizzie548,

A few things came to mind --

Does validation work with your H? It can't hurt, and might make things a little easier since you're still living with him. Divorce is hard even for low-conflict couples. If he wants to kiss the kids goodnight, is taking a stand against that going to help or hurt you? Forget about lawyers on this one, it's not relevant (he said, she said on minor issues gets swept aside by the current of bigger things, in my experience). I'm pretty familiar with BPD and I wasn't following exactly what was wrong with saying goodnight to the kids. Once legal engines start revving, everyone begins to feel a little cornered, like everything is under a microscope. Everyone expects it -- your responses are right on target. It also doesn't help you, and probably is confusing for the kids.

About therapy for son. Your ex is feeling afraid that he's going to lose control. He's also a smart guy, and aware of CYA. Over time, you'll get lots of practice communicating with him so that he has less change to stonewall or obstruct. It's appropriate for him to say he felt a little blindsided by the appointment, it's not very reasonable that he canceled the appointment. If he has strong narcissistic traits, you will get more from your interactions with him if you give him an illusion he's in control, or in some way superior. I hesitated to do this at first because it felt so manipulative. Over time it seemed more like a communication style that just worked. He needed praise and a feeling he was big man on campus, and when I became detached enough, it was not hard to do. The key is to get some eyes on what you write to make sure you aren't going too far.

"You were right to want more advance notice about S's therapy appointment. Can we start fresh here? I've done some research on therapists to help us get started. Can you let me know which one you want to go with? If I don't hear from you by day/date, I'll go ahead and pick one and let you know when the first session is."

I also always started my emails using N/BPDx's name. Always. Even when I was furious. He's the father of my son, and I didn't want to lose sight of him as a person. This actually was a lifeline that helped more than I can say when S13 needed to talk. Anyway, that comes later  

His comment about not trying to mediate with the T strikes me as accurate. Therapists over reach. I have an excellent T, she is my rock. And she is not licensed to practice law. My L had to say on a few occasions, "All due respect to T, she is no more a lawyer than I am a therapist."

If you can find a fantastic mediator with excellent skills dealing with difficult people, I would go for it. Your H is difficult, he may also be more reasonable than some. My ex's narcissism worked to my advantage in mediation. He wanted something from his L and the mediator that made him relatively easy to deal with. Maybe ask your L if there is someone who is known in lawyer circles for being exceptionally good at mediation.

The question about the protective order is so hard to answer. It does seems like the 8th circle of hell for divorcing spouses to live together. My ex was too dangerous for that, so I left. In my state, I could've filed to have him removed (can't remember what it's called... .something about bed and board). At that time, I did not have the strength and instead uprooted S13. It's a deeply personal decision that has more to do with what you have the strength for, what the impact on the kids will be, what your L recommends, and if there are any safety issues. It's easy for us out here to say what's best -- ideally, we all want to detonate the bomb without it going off. It takes a lot of skill and some steely nerves, and meanwhile, you're trying to act like a normal mom who does normal mom things... .

Last -- do you have any reason to think he knows about the site?

[lizzie458]

Does validation work with your H? It can't hurt, and might make things a little easier since you're still living with him. Divorce is hard even for low-conflict couples. If he wants to kiss the kids goodnight, is taking a stand against that going to help or hurt you? Forget about lawyers on this one, it's not relevant (he said, she said on minor issues gets swept aside by the current of bigger things, in my experience). I'm pretty familiar with BPD and I wasn't following exactly what was wrong with saying goodnight to the kids. Once legal engines start revving, everyone begins to feel a little cornered, like everything is under a microscope. Everyone expects it -- your responses are right on target. It also doesn't help you, and probably is confusing for the kids.

Unfortunately validation does not work, especially not now that we're wayyyy far down the road of me being painted black. I probably wasn't clear in my word vomit last night (), but the kissing goodnight is not an issue. It only was an issue last night because he threw the door open with a light on and practically shouted "goodnight" (which is very odd and not characteristic of him), and the kids were almost asleep so it was incredibly disruptive for them (they are both very difficult to get wound down, and  this incident took an hour for them to recover from). I think what I'm noticing most is the pattern of him throwing everything under the bus in order to assert "his rights". He said that several times in the interactions concerning T for DS, and again today when there was a misunderstanding regarding who was doing what and when (plans for the day).

If he has strong narcissistic traits, you will get more from your interactions with him if you give him an illusion he's in control, or in some way superior. I hesitated to do this at first because it felt so manipulative. Over time it seemed more like a communication style that just worked. He needed praise and a feeling he was big man on campus, and when I became detached enough, it was not hard to do. The key is to get some eyes on what you write to make sure you aren't going too far.

"You were right to want more advance notice about S's therapy appointment. Can we start fresh here? I've done some research on therapists to help us get started. Can you let me know which one you want to go with? If I don't hear from you by day/date, I'll go ahead and pick one and let you know when the first session is."

I'm worried about admitting guilt or saying I'm sorry for two reasons: 1) legal (I can't imagine why admitting where you're wrong could be construed as a bad thing unless you don't set the record straight about the warped parts of the interaction... .but then again you can't do that without triggering the N/BPD and I've always heard one should be very careful about admission of guilt in legal settings) 2) Doesn't making him feel in control feed into his fantasies and make things worse with an N/BPD? Before I came to the conclusion divorce needed to happen here, I even tried radical submission (I am religious) and it definitely made things worse. It was like the power made him crazy, and did nothing for me in terms of him coming around to the idea of protecting me, and realizing the responsibility of power. I wonder whether it's the person or practice that makes things different between your experience and mine (maybe it's both?).

I also always started my emails using N/BPDx's name. Always. Even when I was furious. He's the father of my son, and I didn't want to lose sight of him as a person. This actually was a lifeline that helped more than I can say when S13 needed to talk. Anyway, that comes later 

This is interesting. While I loathe this person with every fiber of my being and have not yet come around to the whole "he deserves respect (or anything) as the father of my kids" thing, I appreciate your experience and will "try it on" myself. I'm reading more into it too, could you elaborate on what you mean with this?

His comment about not trying to mediate with the T strikes me as accurate. Therapists over reach. I have an excellent T, she is my rock. And she is not licensed to practice law. My L had to say on a few occasions, "All due respect to T, she is no more a lawyer than I am a therapist."

Yes, he's right about that - this is another thing I wasn't clear about on here last night! I totally agree. The thing that got me was how quickly he went from wanting to to counseling for mediation prep (to save money, but he was totally for it and not begrudging), to confronting me and letting me know he'd changed his mind because of the "bad advice" (T makes no claims of legal prowess, she's always reminding us she's not a lawyer and we need to talk to our atty's)... .it still isn't coming through in my post this evening, but it was quite a big shift. It's just signaling to me that there's a lot going on and he's either flailing, or he's got someone in his ear (probably both) and he is nowhere near as calm and cool as he came off the first week after filing. He tried to put forth this image that everything was hunky dory and we'd just do this thing on a wink and a handshake... .obviously I was not preparing that way. However from the get-go I have been letting him drive the entire thing without even making recommendations or having any input of my own. The purpose of that has been to try to get a bead on where he's at emotionally, mentally, and strategically. If that's even possible. I don't think it really is, he's so erratic. I think that's the only pattern there.

If you can find a fantastic mediator with excellent skills dealing with difficult people, I would go for it. Your H is difficult, he may also be more reasonable than some. My ex's narcissism worked to my advantage in mediation. He wanted something from his L and the mediator that made him relatively easy to deal with. Maybe ask your L if there is someone who is known in lawyer circles for being exceptionally good at mediation.

Yes! Mediation is on the agenda, just haven't gotten that far yet. I'm glad to hear about your experience because I'm anticipating some serious stonewalling, based on our past history with negotiations. I don't want to go into this naively and think everything will be great, but who knows. Maybe something will change.

Last -- do you have any reason to think he knows about the site?

No, but he's not a massive fool, either. He knows I have BPD-specific support.


Things are starting to get really hairy because we are both still living here. Wires got crossed this morning - I usually take the kids all day. H woke up and started making an elaborate breakfast and reading to S, which made me think he was trying to spend time with them (we never have really set schedules, he works at night and I do not work). I was leaving, S said he didn't want to go - I say, "oh, are you staying here?"  Surprisingly (not so surprisingly though), H came at me saying I was "springing this on him last-minute" blah blah blah. I tell him I'm perfectly happy taking them because that's what we always do, and said what would you like to do (I didn't realize he would escalate, S was sitting right there)? He turned to our 3 YEAR OLD and asked him what he wanted. When he said he wanted to stay, H continued his diatribe and blaming me for setting him up, yadda yadda yadda. After he was done and stormed off, S put his head down and closed the book we were reading, pulled away from me as I tried to hug him. This is why I want him out. The expectations are all screwed up (S wants us both and when he can't have it, doesn't understand and gets very upset), clearly conflict is arising, etc. As I mentioned I really wanted to work on concrete limits and physical separation, he went to call me a foul name - the kids were in earshot so I interrupted and said, "what?" as he said "you are such a... .", so instead of the name, he called me "delusional". Hm. Ok. Idk if stuff like this is legit enough to get him kicked out (I would hope so because it's really messing with the kids' minds, but my guess is no)... .and I'm wondering if I will just have to figure some way to do really iron-clad boundaries and try to gain some kind of sanity here myself. Doubtful, but worth a shot I suppose. Any ideas here? He does not respect any boundaries when he can assert "his rights" instead (like waking the kids up with a really loud, disrupting goodnight).