experiences with staying or going with spouse, raising kids

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hello, spouse of 23 years, he's one year into recovery from Alcoholism and benzo abuse and it's becoming more and more clear that he's also BPD.  Three years of doctors and he still has no "insight."  I'm assuming now that will never change.  I have seriously been considering divorce for a year and I think what stops me is the fear of coparenting with him after divorce and through the divorce process.  Very concerned for my kids who are 4th and 6th grades next year and of course are already vulnerable from having lived through rages directed at me and one of them in particular (he's been diagnosed with anxiety), and overt manipulation (parental alienation) that started at the height of his breakdown.  I have sought counseling, spouse is in schema therapy though I doubt he's been told he's BPD, and I also have my kid's counselor for help--and the gist seems to be not to expect much change, and that there is no predicting whether staying with him or leaving is better for me and the kids.  I'd love to hear some advice from those who have lived it.

[seethelight123]

Hello, spouse of 23 years, he's one year into recovery from Alcoholism and benzo abuse and it's becoming more and more clear that he's also BPD.  Three years of doctors and he still has no "insight."  I'm assuming now that will never change.  I have seriously been considering divorce for a year and I think what stops me is the fear of coparenting with him after divorce and through the divorce process.  Very concerned for my kids who are 4th and 6th grades next year and of course are already vulnerable from having lived through rages directed at me and one of them in particular (he's been diagnosed with anxiety), and overt manipulation (parental alienation) that started at the height of his breakdown.  I have sought counseling, spouse is in schema therapy though I doubt he's been told he's BPD, and I also have my kid's counselor for help--and the gist seems to be not to expect much change, and that there is no predicting whether staying with him or leaving is better for me and the kids.  I'd love to hear some advice from those who have lived it.

[Lifewriter16]

Hello and welcome, see the light 123.

I'm glad you've found this website and I'm sure you'll benefit from posting on the boards and reading the articles.

My experience is unlike yours, so I can not give you advice based upon experience. I simply wanted to invite you to reflect upon a couple of questions:

Is your BPD spouse a fit parent?

Is co-parenting with him a good idea at this stage in his recovery?

Lifewriter

[livednlearned]

Hi seethelight123,

Welcome and hello  

Staying or leaving is a tough decision (as you know). My ex is/was an alcoholic, too, and very fond of all kinds of prescription medications. It was when he "quit" that it became clear something else was going on too -- similar to what you describe with your H. It's great that you and the kids are in counseling. Do the kids know their dad is in treatment for alcoholism and addiction? What kind of relationships do they have with their dad, and with you?

Do the kids seem susceptible to the alienation?

There's a thread on the board about staying vs leaving that might be helpful:

PERSPECTIVES: Is it better for the kids if I stay or leave?

There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together. Would having a BPD/NPD parent (or other abusive parent) change this outlook? If you leave, do you think your kids have been harmed by the friction between you and the ex? Would things be better for your kids living in a two-parent home situation? If you are the father, do you believe that leaving your marriage means leaving your kids? Read more.

I wish there was more research on BPD in men/fathers. It does seem that things play out in slightly different ways compared to the BPD mothers described here. For example, my ex was more interested in control and less interested in having time with my son. He also has strong narcissistic traits, although is not classic NPD.

You mention that you have been thinking seriously about divorce for a year. Have you talked to any lawyers yet? Or read Bill Eddy's book, Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a NPD/BPD Spouse. It's a must read for us.

Leaving my ex was the best thing I've done other than have my son. But, oof, was it gut wrenching there for a while. It's good to gather as much support and advice, and learn what others have experienced so you can apply this to your own situation.

You're not alone. People here understand and really do care.



LnL

[seethelight123]

Thanks livednlearned.  Sounds like your situation is similar to mine.  Strong NPD traits with my spouse as well.  I have read Splitting which scares me to death.  Already saw signs of him trying parental alienation when he was at his worst so I know he's capable of it.  Probably the most disgusting thing I know he's done.  Have talked to one attorney but it was before I had a clear picture of what was going on. At that point she thought he'd get maybe 20% time with them.  But, now that he's attending AA, not drinking, but still clearly has these BPD issues (not raging like he used to) and is seeing a counselor (I think very, very insincerely--resents the hell out of it and the counselor says he's pretty unreachable), I worry that a judge would award him more parenting time.  I'm in a state that presumes 50/50 unless there's reason not to.  The kids know my spouse is an alcoholic, they know he's in treatment, they know his rages he engaged in for years were wrong, but they don't understand that he's still capable of it even without the alcohol or that he lacks empathy, though the older one is sharp and is starting to catch on.  Spouse spent several years rejecting the kids coldly, brutally and vocally. But since being sober(1 year) has wised up enough to play it smarter or maybe it him being calculating since he now knows the jig is up and I no longer think of him as a nice but confused or maybe anxious, depressed or bipolar, inward, selfish guy.  Do I think he really wants the kids? No. Only in a prop his ego up, use them, narcissistic feed, or look like a good guy kind of way. I doubt his interest would last.  But, it scared me that it might because he is such a needy, perfectionist person with little else going on in his personal life (no friends, weak family ties).  I worry about him making their lives hell, being at worst raging and manipulative, at best disorganized, irresponsible, selfish.  On the other hand, maybe better for kids if I can be assured of getting them for more that 50% time. Also, from time to time I feel this is all so so bad for me that there is only one clear answer.

[livednlearned]

The parental alienation is truly insidious. It's like fighting an invisible foe, something you can't see but nevertheless leaves a trail of destruction.

Have you read any of the materials here on parental alienation? Lesson 5 (Raising Resilient Kids When One Parent Has BPD) and Lesson 6 (Dealing with Parental Alienation) on the Coparenting boards have a lot of good materials and discussions.

The books that helped me the most are Bill Eddy's ":)on't Alienate the Kids" and Richard Warshak's ":)ivorce Poison." I like Eddy's book because it really made me aware of what I was modeling to my son. I was kind of in a perpetual state of paralysis and fear, and realized I needed to role model how I deal with  difficult people.

Divorce Poison is good because it provides very explicit tools you can use. I think Warshak talks about teaching the kids the difference between withholding information, lying, keeping secrets, and privacy. That was really really really helpful for me. I would come up with scenarios, and we would talk about whether it was an example of someone lying, someone keeping secrets, or someone protecting his/her privacy. Parental alienation really distorts all of those concepts and suddenly you start losing this morality war because you are seen as "lying" when what you are trying to protect is your "privacy." Or, your child accuses you of keeping secrets, instead of recognizing that BPD parent inappropriately shared some detail with the kids. With PA, being defensive is not a good place to be. I think Warshak also recommends age-appropriate movies on his website, so you can watch them with the kids and talk about what the characters are doing, and get the kids to think about right/wrong for themselves. That's the tricky thing about countering PA -- you have to help your kids think about what's happening without ever naming it directly.

Also, read everything you can about validation. "Power of Validation" is excellent, and so is "You Don't Have to Make Everything All Better." If you're tight on funds, we have some of that info here (Lesson 5). Your H cannot validate the kids, so you will be doing double-duty. Validation helps confirm for them that what they feel and perceive is real -- a BPD parent does the opposite. When we say that a person with BPD lacks empathy, it's a lot like saying that they cannot see others as separate from themselves. This is particularly toxic for kids.

Dr. Craig Childress also explains PA very well -- I think his website is www.drcachildress.org (?). He says that having majority time with your kids is important if PA is your biggest concern.

Most of us on this board made the decision to divorce, so our advice will be skewed that way. There is an Undecided board that might help as you work your way through this difficult decision. Keep posting here so you can ask questions about how others have dealt with family law courts -- it's a good idea to gather as much info as you can in case you do decide to leave.

We're here for you   

LnL

[seethelight123]

Thank you. I am grateful as I was not aware of those materials on parental alienation.  I am so glad to have found you all. Thanks.