Attorney and forensic psychologist

[momtara]

That's so hurtful. I'm sorry. Asking her for custody wasn't a bad move. At least you know you tried your best. You never know how they'll react. Can your lawyer do the same? If she has no lawyer, you can also file for it. It doesn't sound like she'd represent herself well in court.

Make sure you talk to your L about how to leave the door open so you can get some custody when your daughter is a little older. I'd hate for you to have to go through a long drawn out fight just to see her once a month or some nonsense.

I'm sorry you've never held her, but I think what you are doing, in a way, is very caring. You're not exposing her to disordered battles all the time. If you are comfortable walking away for now, then do that. But please leave the door open - you may feel differently in a year.

I don't want you to have any major regrets. Your L may try to convince her to give up custody.

[stoic83]

My lawyer says that she will not give up legal custody to me.

My T (forensic psych/custody evaluatior) says that the BPD ex won't ever give up custody, because of the money. I make 5 times more than she does. With child support and child care she can get close to 2k/month, which is more than what she takes home from her job.

T describes her behavior as sociopathic... .beyond BPD. Dangerous. He said that a custody evaluator would be able to find something bad to make a recommendation in my favor, if the suspected psychopathy... .etc.

But he said regardless of the recommendation, the court is extremely reluctant to remove a child from it's mother, especially when I have no relationship wit her.

My L says the facts as they are present a very low probability of winning. And he said that her and I can not have joint custody. She alternates between acting rational and crazy, and sometimes the paper trail makes me look bad, due to my reaction to her behavior (vitriol, not good). I can not help but be triggered by our every interaction. She is manipulative, duplicitous, and a pathological liar. Her behavior infuriates me to the point, where I no longer desire to be civil with her, no matter what the cost.

This woman violated me in the worst way I have ever imagined. I should not have to be cooperative with a person that has violated me in the way that she has

The laws are so biased. I definitely feel a hole in my soul. It feels like a death. My hope for my daughter has disappeared. These people will surely destroy her mind during the early developmental stages. Supposedly trauma during infancy can cause brain damage, and lead to disorders such as BPD.

I am certain my daughter is in danger, and there is nothing I can do. I contacted CPS, they can't do anything either. Man, this really sucks. There is a problem with a system that prevents the male parent from protecting the child from the female parent.

Oh well. Just heartbroken. It's so sad

[momtara]

"T describes her behavior as sociopathic... .beyond BPD. Dangerous. He said that a custody evaluator would be able to find something bad to make a recommendation in my favor, if the suspected psychopathy... .etc.

But he said regardless of the recommendation, the court is extremely reluctant to remove a child from it's mother, especially when I have no relationship wit her."

I'm glad you found someone who can give a good assessment. Don't feel that all is lost. You can still keep watching from afar to see what is going on. If you feel she's in serious danger, you can call CPS.

And some kids do have tough early childhoods and grow up healthy.

If there was a way to coparent, you could do that and ultimately fight for more and more custody as time goes on, but it does sound like that could destroy you. And your ex sounds awful.

Do remember that if she does something really bad or is in a bad state, your chances of custody may dramatically improve. Keep tape recording, among other things. She may call you one day with a threat to harm herself or someone else. If that happens and you can prove it, the tables may turn.

Do keep the door open.

One random thought: A custody evaluation, even if you ultimately don't want custody, might protect you or your daughter in the long run because her issues will be on record. Maybe something to discuss with your L? Or a forensic eval? It is odd to ask for that if you're not seeking custody, but just a thought.

I can see why you'd want to walk away and keep things less turbulent, including for your daughter. These are all tough choices. I think whatever choice you make will be right.

[DreamGirl]

So, I think a lot of fathers have felt all the feelings you have felt. Hopelessness. Loss. Fear. Injustice.

You're at a fork we've all been at.

Fight the good fight or walk away.

There are several of us here who have been in this exact place and came out on the other side with a custody order and a way to function in the confines of coparenting with a pwBPD. Some of these men have been put in jail on false allegations. Some have been through the supervised visitation process. Some have had to fight for every single minute they are allowed to see their kiddo.

My husband's least proud moment involved a particularly low moment where he thought he couldn't do it anymore. It doesn't have to be all or nothing though. It doesn't have to be sole custody or no custody.  Slowly, after proving himself again and again --- he found success. He was an every other weekend dad at first. Then a 50/50 dad after two years. Then a full time dad to the oldest. And he co-parents with her with very minimal conflict. The girls have a BPD mother and are turning out perfectly fine. They have residual issues, but heck - who doesn't?

It's a marathon not a sprint. You're in the first couple miles here.

It's OK to pack up and go home. You just need to make sure you're OK with that and you have a lot of valid reasons as to why you should do that. If I was tricked/manipulated/forced into having a kid that'd be pretty tough to deal with. It's not about convincing anyone else though, it's about making peace with the decision. Writing her off forever involves writing off your daughter as well. In my personal experience, it won't just go away. My own son's father walked away and showed back up when he was 10. Those child support payments tend to give you a pretty constant reminder.

It's also OK to do the best you can in a custody evaluation, hope for the best, and try and figure out how to make it all work. We have a lot of experience on these boards to help you in staying grounded and allowing her to show herself in her own way. It's also the most stressful and mind boggling experiences of your time on Earth. A person who struggles with BPD traits usually does not keep the gloves up in this kind of situation. I can honestly say it was by far one of the hardest situations I've dealt with in my life (supporting my husband through his custody dispute with his ex-wife).

It's hard when neither choice sounds like a whole lot of fun.

[ImaFita]

My lawyer says that she will not give up legal custody to me.

My T (forensic psych/custody evaluatior) says that the BPD ex won't ever give up custody, because of the money. I make 5 times more than she does. With child support and child care she can get close to 2k/month, which is more than what she takes home from her job.

T describes her behavior as sociopathic... .beyond BPD. Dangerous. He said that a custody evaluator would be able to find something bad to make a recommendation in my favor, if the suspected psychopathy... .etc.

But he said regardless of the recommendation, the court is extremely reluctant to remove a child from it's mother, especially when I have no relationship wit her.

My L says the facts as they are present a very low probability of winning. And he said that her and I can not have joint custody. She alternates between acting rational and crazy, and sometimes the paper trail makes me look bad, due to my reaction to her behavior (vitriol, not good). I can not help but be triggered by our every interaction. She is manipulative, duplicitous, and a pathological liar. Her behavior infuriates me to the point, where I no longer desire to be civil with her, no matter what the cost.

This woman violated me in the worst way I have ever imagined. I should not have to be cooperative with a person that has violated me in the way that she has

The laws are so biased. I definitely feel a hole in my soul. It feels like a death. My hope for my daughter has disappeared. These people will surely destroy her mind during the early developmental stages. Supposedly trauma during infancy can cause brain damage, and lead to disorders such as BPD.

I am certain my daughter is in danger, and there is nothing I can do. I contacted CPS, they can't do anything either. Man, this really sucks. There is a problem with a system that prevents the male parent from protecting the child from the female parent.

Oh well. Just heartbroken. It's so sad

There is a problem with the system, but the system isn't going away, you need to best find a way to deal with your situation. You can't change the system, but you can change the way you view - and live - your life. I understand this female is nuts, and I understand you feel slighted and frustrated, etc. It is annoying to have to fork out so much coin when you cannot even see or have any input. But I think you should just concentrate on yourself, worry about the money you actually get - not the money she gets. Worry about the life you have, try and make the best of it, and try and think about your dreams, ambitions. If you want kids in the future, think of them, think of building towards that - and don't get trapped thinking about the past, and the negative feelings that come with it. Push on, don't worry about what people around you think, try build a new life, good luck and god bless.

[stoic83]

Thanks guys. I think she has been lying to the DA about some things, and so they will not enforce the support order without a judge. I will probably still send money, unless the L tells me not to.

She harassases me and baits me in to saying terrible things on the phone. She does really act like a sociopath. It seems pretty calculating and I realize that from a third party listening to the call, or moment in the call, I would certainly seem like the one that is crazy. It makes me self-sabotage even more, because I want out of this situation. It's like I'm being stuck in a bear trap and I see the bear coming to finish me off. I would have to bite my leg off to get away.

I've been thinking about this a lot and my conclusion is that this child is not my daughter. It really depends on whether your definition of "father" is the biological/legal one, or if it's the actual/social one. Millions of biological parents agree to have two people adopt their children. They do not pay child support and are not forced to be involved. This may be the attitude I need to take. It's really the mother's responsibility as to how she frames this to the child. I honestly do not see that much difference between myself and a sperm donor, because she chose to use my sperm to have a child, knowing that I did not want her to use the sperm for that purpose when she took it from me against my will.

I didn't have a child with this woman (or children with this woman) and then decide I didn't want to be with her after all because she was crazy after being a "father" to the child. I met with a counselor and this woman after she was 3 months pregnant and we signed a sperm donor agreement... .later we signed an "open adoption" agreement, where I essentially adopted the child to her and said I would be known to the child, but not her father. The counselor was the one who told me to not be involved at all, and that it was impossible.

This is the attitude I held throughout the pregnancy. I think if I had a better support network, I could do it. (Like a girlfriend, wife, or closer friends then I have right now). There's strength in numbers, and her and her family are the cruelest people I have ever encountered in my life, and I may be one of the more sensitive men I know.

I have said some bad things on the phone. I have talked about suicide, because I felt like "I" am my only leverage... .I moved out of state to get away from her brand of craziness because I couldn't take it anymore. When you move to another state to get away from someone and they can continue to abuse you legally, financially, and spirtually... .life really starts to look pretty dismal. Especially when you feel this person should be making ammends for the damage they have caused to your life. and instead they are continually aggressive and using every tool at their disposal to make your life as bad as possible.

I did go spend time with friends and family and it really helped, even though the woman with BPD (wouldnt consider her an ex, because technically she was my landlord), was relentlessly harassing both my attorney and I while I was there.

It's to the point where any contact from her triggers Trauma symptoms. I just don't have enough positive social input at the moment to counterbalance the cruelty.

[ForeverDad]

Thanks guys. I think she has been lying to the DA about some things, and so they will not enforce the support order without a judge. I will probably still send money, unless the L tells me not to.

My lawyer told me that any money gifted outside of a court's order or court's arrangement will be viewed as just that - a GIFT.  And that's what my court did.  When I filed for divorce and two months later finally had my temporary order hearing, I wasn't asked how much money I had given her, court calculated amounts to start RETROACTIVE back to the date of the court filing.  So I immediately had 2 months due.  Within two weeks a new month started and CSEA sent me a letter that I was "IN DEFAULT" since I hadn't paid CS in full and would be reported to credit agencies in 30 days.  No pro-rating for me to catch up.

Yes, it is proper to show good faith and pay some basic support even if none is ordered, but don't pay overmuch or generously because it is very likely such voluntary payments will be ignored by the court and not allowed to offset or credit a court ordered amount.

She harasses me and baits me in to saying terrible things on the phone.

Well, frankly this is about you.  A few times to be framed into poor responses, understandable.  If you still not able to handle it better, then there's some things you haven't learned to get straight yet.

This has been said many times so I don't know if there is an original quote to cite, but I remember from the original Star Trek series the starship Enterprise's engineer Scotty finally exclaimed to those on the Bridge, speaking of the Klingons trying to keep luring the Enterprise away from Captain Kirk and the landing party with a second false distress signal, "Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me!"

Yes, she makes it so difficult, but you can still make progress in how you respond (calmly with thought and not overreacting impulse) and how you are impacted (huge emotional distancing umbrella as shield).

[momtara]

That makes it very hard when there aren't enough "normal" people consistently in your life to remind you of what it's like to be grounded and normal and consistently loved. I think you have the right attitude now. You can always try to see your daughter later if it's easier. This all sounds pretty triggery. Definitely listen to your lawyer. Maybe there's a way to keep the door open so you can see her one day if you want, if it's not traumatic.