Ex intimidated PC into quitting and wants to take kids on trip

[momtara]

So my ex is bipolar (according to last parent coordinator) and can be very intimidating, but is high functioning and doesn't make threats. It's just that he gets so angry when he feels out of control on decisions with the kids, it scares me and I tiptoe around him (like when married). Our kids are 3 and 4 and adorable. So far he hasn't done anything terrible to them, but he is constantly asking me to get back together with him or take a trip with him, and when I say that's not appropriate to talk about, he gets angry again. When we were married and the kids were babies, he used to use them to scare or control me and I always think he could use them for revenge against me. Last year our pc said he was off his meds and should be on supervised visitation, so he was, and then I dropped it in exchange for us to use a PC for a year, which I'd pay for (dumb, right?)

So this summer he has been asking for us to get together a lot. I've said it's inappropriate to discuss. He recently failed to show up for visitation on time with no explanation or response to texts, then showed up 3 hours late and texted me to "hand over the children." That's the kind of stuff that scares me, his whole demeanor.

He sent our PC an email this week saying he wouldn't meet with her anymore and claiming she said things she didn't. In response, her advice to me was to reopen the case and choose a new PC and have him pay 50 percent. She didn't say anything about his mental status or anything else. Our old PC at least was more concerned, but she doesn't seem to be.

He has just sent me an email claiming he is going to take the kids on a vacation 5 hours away, by himself. His itinerary starts and ends on days that aren't his parenting time. He gets one overnight and says his trip will take 2. This is 2 weeks away.

Wondering how to handle all of this. If I go back to court to get a new PC, he may ask for like a weekday dinner or two with the kids, which he recently asked for privately. Considering his erratic behavior that just will mess with the kids' and my continuity. Right now he sees them every other weekend for one overnight.

What I'd really like are:

-To have my atty prepare a motion for a new PC (or get back the old one), the PC is able to talk with his mental health professionals (this one could not) and ex has to provide proof of ongoing threrapy. Of course, this will be expensive and he may get some weekly dinners out of it. (I would ask for that to be determined by PC so probably couldn't get them right away if he tried).

It scares me that he takes them at all, and that he could take them on a trip 5 hours away, but I don't know if he's bluffing. Could really use any thoughts and advice. Part of me is tempted to do an emergency motion to stop parenting time til we get a new PC, because that was a condition of his coming off supervised visitation last time. It's possible we could get it, BUT since he hasn't "done anything" in the last year I don't know if we'd get that or if it would just rachet up the situation.

Am I opening a can of worms if I react to any of this? Should I let it go with the PC and let sleeping dogs lie? I know livedandlearned (and my T) have said my anxiety about him is pretty high, implying that he's largely bark and no bite. I think I am tired of his constant harassment though, and he is a bit unstable and the kids are young. When he takes them to his place, his parents are there to help, but that won't be the case if he takes them on a trip or something else.

[momtara]

OH, where I said "old PC" I mean the first one we had, not the second one. But don't know if she'd work with us at this point.

I'd feel more comfortable with supervised visitation, but pretty soon he'd be back off it (sooner than later) and just angrier than ever (and more broke). Don't know what else to do though, except get a new pc to help monitor the situation. This one was not very good at it.

Really need to know how this looks to someone else; I'm too deep in the situation to know what to do.

[momtara]

Saw my T. He said that ex is harassing me and I should at least go to court to get a new PC and have him pay 50 percent and court costs. He doesn't believe ex would hurt the kids but thinks he should be on supervised visitation anyway to keep him in line because he harasses me via the kids. Hmmm. Could use any other thoughts/impressions/advice... .

[david]

If the pc is court ordered than he is in violation of the court order. I would not make any changes until the court order is being followed. I learned that pointing out the court order tends to shift the blame on the court and ex's emails are less hostile towards me.

Also, by having him pay 50 percent when he was not paying anything gives him a consequence. You don't need to point that out. Let him figure that out in court if that is the direction you go.

I would be certain not to give info to my ex and let her just learn learn the consequences of her behavior. I am not her parent and she is an adult.

If you go to court figure out consequences that the court would deem reasonable. Of course, you don't call them consequences out loud since that would trigger him. Your atty might have an idea about that. Just make sure you have a plan in place for the judge. I have found that when I have a problem and also a solution things go much better in court. Judges have always followed my solutions pretty much as they were presented in court. My ex never has solutions so that makes things easier for the judge since he/she doesn't have to decide.

[GaGrl]

Also, your ex has now established a pattern -- no PC is acceptable to him.

[david]

That is a good point if you go to court. Make sure your atty makes that crystal clear. Have it all written down. First PC and how ex didn't like that one, Second one, etc... .and have that piece of paper introduced as a piece of evidence. It takes longer and some judges and lawyers don't like doing that. However, judges are required to make their decisions based on the evidence presented. That piece of paper holds more weight than verbal testimony. It took me a while to understand that but once I did I started accomplishing much more in court to help our two boys.

[whirlpoollife]

Do you have a court order concerning vacations in summer?

MHO I would not give in the guilt pressure to have dinner with him , and kids.  A simple "no" would do. No explanation is needed.

[momtara]

Thanks Whirlpool, David and Gagrl! Yes, he does have a pattern now.

Our parenting schedule in summer is same as all year, he gets them 1 overnight every other weekend.

I said no last night to his email claiming he's taking them 5 hours away on a trip, because he's starting it Friday and his parenting time starts Saturday. That would be an extra overnight. Of course, he's been calling and emailing me in response this morning. I don't think firing our PC and then demanding an extra overnight for a trip is reasonable... .um, is it? It's unprecedented and there will be no other adults on the trip. I am not going to get into it with him. He's not going to see relatives or anything.

He has the kids this weekend and hopefully it will go ok.

[david]

My ex used to send me additional emails when I said no. If I replied I would simply repeat what I already said adding nothing to the reply. I make sure my original "no" email is short and clear. If I reply I only do it one time.

You may want to send an email asking about how "we" can follow the court order and get a pc. Make sure you have a few in mind that you know are good. Having only one will probably get a no from him.

We had to sell our house during the divorce. In court my ex insisted that my friend in real estate was not allowed to sell the house. She was afraid I would trick her somehow. My friend was willing to sell the house and waive his commission and put that in an account for our two boys. Everyone thought that was a good idea except ex. I turned around and said we could pick one from the for sale signs in the neighborhood. She said that was fine. I suggested a sign that was on the way to her residence. I even said she could make the call. She immediately said I was to make the call. I agreed. So... .I called my friends mother-in-law   and told her to list the house. Nothing unethical was done but I felt it was the safest course of action.

[momtara]

That's pretty comforting and helpful, 'cause now he's Tweeting that he's going to take me to court.

Part of me wonders if I just have to stand up to him and not keep using parent coordinators. I just get scared; he's mentally ill and I think it's at least good to have someone in place. Gonna write something up for my lawyer.

[david]

So he takes you to court because he can't get what he wants but he refuses to follow the court order. Sounds like you could have a good day in court if you prepare properly.

[ForeverDad]

So right now, with a PC stepped out, YOU are the one "in place".  Just follow the order and don't second guess yourself and don't talk yourself out of reasonable boundaries.  Pondering your history, you've always been worried to have your parenting decisions tested and so you've appeared weak to ex and probably PC and court too.  You've been in charge for 1 or 2 years thus far and it's gone reasonably well, can you start to reflect that success in raising your Confidence about yourself?  You can rightly feel empowered - just not entitled.

It is apparent this is your personality, to be somewhat passive and meek.  Okay, we agree that you're not a Born Leader and probably boldness is hard for you.  But you can still step up and take charge with confidence in yourself, confidence in your parenting and confidence in your decisions.

[momtara]

Yup.

I'm not always weak. Just around him. (Gosh, that probably applies to a lot of us married or divorced from disordered people)... .he can use my kids as leverage and that makes me nervous.

Well, time to get strong.

I am starting to get less worried as the kids are a bit older, but I always worry about them.

[maxen]

He's tweeting this?

[momtara]

I don't have phone conversations anymore. Everything my ex says is tweeted or emailed. He tries to yell at me thru the phone when he calls the kids but I have to tell him to stop and hang up pretty quickly.

[maxen]

Tweeting is public tho', isn't it?

[momtara]

Not sure what you mean. Can it be used in court? Yes, it can.

[Thunderstruck]

Well you can't worry about what he's going to do, just prepare. I've found that 90% of the threats that uBPDbm makes are just "blowing smoke" and the 10% when she follows through end up actually working out in our favor (although it's stressful to deal with at the time).

If he follows through with his threat of taking the kids (not on his parenting time) 5 hours away, then slap a contempt of court on him and move to go back to supervised visits. It sounds like you have more than enough reasons to justify it (not complying with T/meds, not following order for PC, etc).

Is there wording in the PP about not being able to leave the jurisdiction/state without approval?

Has the PC been helping? Are there still issues in your PP that you need coordinated? It sounds like it's another way for him to engage in drama. If you cut the PC out and just follow the PP to the letter then it could reduce him engaging you in conflict. I think PCs are supposed to be temporary anyway, right?

[momtara]

Yeah, they're supposed to be temporary and should be. My fear is, I'm dealing with a mentally ill person alone, and if an issue arises, I have no one to ask. My lawyer is busy and not very good at hand holding. And ex gives approval for things and then changes his mind, cancels appointments, says I didn't consult him, etc. At least I have witnesses this way. The downside is, the PC's do appear to trigger him. (Then again, what doesn't?)

I don't want him to stop seeing a therapist, and without enforcing all this, and having a PC who checks in, he could do that someday. I think at least a PC for longer will help make coparenting better in the long run. 

There's no language about taking the kids out of the state, we just have to give each other 2 weeks notice for trips longer than 2 hours. But this one is half on my parenting time and he didn't ask, just told me. Plus, who takes kids that far alone, not even to see relatives, for no reason? My T feels I need to enforce this boundary.

I'm feeling daunted today because finding a new PC is kind of ridiculous. I liked our first one but not sure she'll work with us again (she became uncommunicative at the end of last year), and new one seems intimidated too. I need an aggressive one but in my area they start at a $3K retainer. Even if he pays, we'll go through that just giving them all the background.

Oh well, gotta step up to the plate.

[livednlearned]

When a disordered ex acts erratic and we're worried about our kids, it's natural to feel anxious.

Anxiety makes it hard to think clearly and if it's a familiar state, it can actually feel comforting. It feels like we're doing something (worrying).

PCs don't seem to work too well in your situation. If they're good (and even when they aren't), your ex gets rid of them. You pay for the whole thing. The PCs can't talk to his doctors, etc.

Strategically, it has worked out, though, because now you have a pattern based in evidence that you can present to the judge. "Ex fires all the PCs. momtara is trying her hardest to work with these professionals, even agreeing to pay 100%. That isn't working your honor, we need something more."

Emotionally and psychologically, you're afraid that if you pursue a court order that limits supervision, he will retaliate and hurt the kids.

So... .

You have two choices (with many variations).

One, you learn to manage your own anxiety and boundaries, and let him jack you up periodically as he deals with his issues.

Two, you go to court and ask for xyz.

When my ex wanted to yank my chain, he would imply something very vague, knowing full well it would crank up my anxiety. My hunch is that your ex does the same. He gets a feeling (momtara is controlling), then he asks for something he knows will bug you (take the kids on momtara's time), and then he sits back and creates a disordered version of what he wants -- come up with a way to be emotionally engaged, and even though it's negative engagement, it's better than no engagement at all.

You have to decide what you have the stomach for -- to set a firm boundary (court), or do this for the next 10+ years. There is no right or wrong answer. It's about your values.

[momtara]

Very good point-by-point summary.

I don't know that I want to do this for 10+ years.

Tonight he called the kids and hung on the phone without saying anything for several minutes. They said, "Why isn't daddy saying anything?" They are toddlers and confused. I hung up.

Not sure how things like that can be addressed in court.

I guess my question becomes, do I file an order and wait while they stall for months, or threaten with supervised visitation. Will have to ask atty.

[livednlearned]

Tonight he called the kids and hung on the phone without saying anything for several minutes. They said, "Why isn't daddy saying anything?" They are toddlers and confused. I hung up.

This is weird behavior. It isn't actionable on its own in court -- that's why you have to document a pattern of behavior. You might toss this in as one data point among ten others. Also, it's public knowledge that your ex has a mental illness. You probably don't need to underline every single thing he does that is odd.

It's also weird behavior made much worse by the anxiety you feel. Once kids turn 3, they aren't toddlers anymore. They're vulnerable, yes. They're also able to handle a clear response from you, "I don't know why daddy calls and doesn't say anything. When I call someone on the phone, I always talk. Time for bed."

If someone doesn't say anything on the phone, is it normal to hang up? Yes. You could also ask them, "What do you think it means when someone calls and doesn't say anything?" Help them develop healthy behaviors and boundaries when someone acts peculiar."Maybe it's best to wait until daddy feels like talking."

I found that asking my son validating questions reduced my anxiety, validated his feelings, and taught him to trust his ability to problem solve.

Whether you go to court or not, these are good tools for your toolkit.

[david]

I became a much better parent when I stopped worrying about what ex would do or not do. I view my ex as someone that the courts ordered to have custody of the boys.

Parallel parenting was the only thing that worked for me. It took a while for me to get parallel parenting and I am still learning. Validating our boys made our relationship (between the kids and me) much stronger than when ex and I were still together. Ex always stepped in and took over when we were together.

[momtara]

Thanks, livedandlearned and David.

My T suggested I didn't have to rush at all of this. Maybe just set boundaries and try not to worry and see how it goes. Part of me wants to do that, and certainly saving money would be a good thing. But another part is that he IS mentally ill, could get worse someday, and at least having a PC in place is someone I could go to if he really gets wacky. Especially if she/he can contact ex's doctors.

I was calling PC's today. I want one with a mental health background, not just a lawyer. There aren't many in my part of the state, and with $2K and $3K retainers, choices are limited. But I will pick someone.

My big question is how to handle - have lawyer send ex's lawyer a letter saying, here's what we want; just file a motion, or go big guns and say he has to be on supervised visitation until he complies. Waiting to hear back from PC on what her recommendations are (she is often slow to respond) and talk to lawyer.

Yes, I am learning parallel parenting and every day I get a little stronger. Advice and support from people like David, Livedandlearned, etc. is invaluable too, at least in giving me great examples and kind of summarizing what I am trying and hoping to do.

Since I am not fighting for more parenting time, really, I have to ask for other things in court, certain boundaries.

[david]

Depending on what you are trying to accomplish you don't necessarily need to go to court.

Example, I got a call from our S16's school last year. He was sick and in the nurses office. I told the nurse I would pick him up. It was mom's custodial time and the had already called her three times with no answer. I was there in about 15 minutes after I got the call since I was nearby already. I was almost home when ex called my phone. I don't answer when she calls and I didn't think this was an emergency. S16 vomited in school but it didn't appear he needed a doc appointment. The nurse agreed with my assessment. When I arrived home I sent an email to ex giving her all the info about what happened. It took more than five sentences but less than ten. I kept it as brief as possible. My last two sentences were that S16 was in bed and I would take him to school the next day or the doc depending on what happened through the night and the next morning. Ex replied that it was her custodial time and she "WANTED ME TO RETURN S16 TO HER RESIDENCE". Yes. she capitalized. I repeated the last two sentences of my email and left it at that. I received several more emails but they were all angry rages. I ignored them. Later that evening I received a call from the police. I explained what I did. The officer was understanding and acknowledged he thought I did the right thing. He asked me to reach out to ex. I told him I would send an email and did just that. It was basically the same email that I originally sent. I added that I received a call from officer x and that he asked me to let you know what I was doing. S16 went to school the next day and everything was fine with him. Ex sent several more emails which angry so I ignored them too. I refuse to feed the anger and that has helped me a lot. I no longer try to explain myself.

Ex had a choice to let it go or take me to court for contempt since I didn't follow the court order exactly as written. I felt confidant that I did the right thing for our son. If ex took me to court I am sure I would not have lost anything since it was all in emails. Ex did nothing.

About six weeks later ex sent an email saying S12 was ill and she wasn't going to let me pick him up since it was my custodial time. I emailed back asking for him to call. I didn't get a call so I called her residence twice and no one answered and the answering machine was turned off. I drove to ex's to pick S12 up since I thought ex was lying. Her car was in the driveway. The court order says I am to call her phone and when her voicemail turns on I am to hang up and wait for no more than 5 minutes. Nothing happened and I called again. Nothing again. I then called the police and they came to the residence. They said there was nothing the could do and it was a civil matter. I would have to go to court. I then said that I was concerned for everyone's safety in the residence since I had no contact from anyone. They reluctantly started walking towards her residence to do a safety check. They were at least 20 yards away when my cell range. It was my S12 telling me her would be out in a minute. I called out to the police since I remained in my car. They turned back and S12 came out. Total time in front of ex's residence was about 40 minutes. S12 was not sick and knew nothing about being ill. We drove home and he was with me for the next four days. No signs of illness at all.

I set several boundaries and they all stuck. I don't get upset by her behaviors anymore because I expect her to do this kind of nonsense all the time. When she behaves "normally" things are fine. When she acts out I make sure my boundaries are in place and I stick to them if I believe they are reasonable.

One of my SS's got married in May. He is ex's son from her first marriage. Ex did a lot of bs at the wedding. None of it was directly aimed at me except one thing which I simply ignored since it wasn't important. I found out days later aboput al the other things. Suffice it to say that she will not be invited to any of the new family functions. She pissed off everyone on the brides side of the family and several on our side. It's not the way I would like things to be but it is what it is.

[livednlearned]

My big question is how to handle - have lawyer send ex's lawyer a letter saying, here's what we want; just file a motion, or go big guns and say he has to be on supervised visitation until he complies. Waiting to hear back from PC on what her recommendations are (she is often slow to respond) and talk to lawyer.

I think people are going to want you to make the decision. You have to keep in mind that through all of this -- all of your posts, your fears are based on what could happen. Your anxiety is based on what has happened. You are expecting the PC and the lawyer to share your anxiety. They don't. What the lawyer is looking for is a) what does momtara want, and b) is there enough evidence to win.

The PC you have (if this is the same one I'm thinking of, from previous posts) does not want to be triangulated by you and is trying to take a neutral position. Unless things have changed and this PC is now aligning with you?

[momtara]

This PC is aligning a tiny bit by suggesting in her final letter to me that I go back to court and get a new pc and ex pays 50 percent. Don't know if she'll suggest anything else. At times when i have been scared of him, all she has said is that I should call 911 if he comes to get the kids and is really acting irrational.

I think (as usual) you hit the nail on the head, Livedandlearned - I really have to figure out what *I* want before i talk to my attorney. At the very least I have concluded I want a PC at least for another year. I don't want to be left hanging if he gets really out of control. Beyond that, not positive how to handle. I just know something has to change while I have a chance, and the PC quitting may be a chance.

David, that is a good example - option C, which is learn to ignore a lot of his bluster and put up with the harassment and sometime lies. I guess I *am* too worried that his mental state could get worse while he has the kids, I am tired of telling doctors' offices that he can't cancel appointments I make, etc. I don't know if going to court will solve the problems or just make him angrier. There is no way to know.

I've thought about a letter to him, saying he responds to any decision I make with harassment and intimidation, and it has to stop or we'll go to court. I would remind him that I'm not trying to take away parenting time (a fear of his) but that coparenting is getting difficult. Maybe I should have discussed this in front of the PC all those times instead of just bringing up decisions and having her decide in front of us so he wouldn't be angry at me. However, if I write this letter outlining all his issues that need to stop, I likely do lose the chance to go to court to suspend parenting time until he does these things. And I'm not sure (yet) how much of an ability he has to control his anger. My T thinks he *can* control it and is just harassing me and wouldn't really hurt the kids. But he's hurting them emotionally with his stupid calls where he hands on and says nothing while they talk to him, and yelling at me in front of them. It all seems like poor judgment.

I also really would like to tighten the annual notification letter about his therapy so it says he's in the same level he has been before, rather than just saying he's listening to his doctors' recommendations. It's not good for the kids if he just decides to stop going one day. I should have accomplished all this last year and I didn't, but everyone makes mistakes.

Not sure also if I should ask for a psych eval at this point. He has doctors already, but I guess it could be another thing to get him in line, at least legally.

[livednlearned]

How does he find out about the appointments?

I don't understand the letter -- it sounds like a threat ("I'll take you to court". And then what? He cancels an appointment. Are you prepared to follow through?

You have a lot of fear about triggering him. Won't the letter have that effect?

[momtara]

I kind of feel that everything will trigger him. I don't know. Trying to figure out which way to best assert boundaries. I know that I can't be under constant harassment anymore.

I thought maybe a letter would make the boundaries clear.

I'm sort of coming to the conclusion that I at least have to submit a motion asking for a new PC and to tighten his notifcation of therapy.

L and L, you may not want to tell me , but what would you do in this situation?

[livednlearned]

I thought maybe a letter would make the boundaries clear.

Boundaries are something that we assert for ourselves. They are not something we do as a way to control another person (which doesn't work). It sounds like you intend the letter as a way to get him to fall in line. It's a veiled threat. BPD or not, this isn't something that tends to minimize conflict. Also, what else can he do but test your boundary? And when he does, what will you do? You would have to be ready to pull the trigger. Are you?

L and L, you may not want to tell me , but what would you do in this situation?

I can't answer this for you, momtara. I wish it were that easy. It's really about what you are willing and able to tolerate.