I've radically accepted him, yet...

[Ceruleanblue]

I've radically accepted him, yet he seems like he has zero appreciation of that, and he's always looking for a way out, or to control me with divorce threats. I've decided that is not something I really want long terms. Like the above poster, I want someone who really, really wants to be with me, and loves me for the kind, good person I am.

I wanted to stay, and make this marriage work, but if I'm the only one that truly wants that, I'm wasting myself in this marriage, and putting up with way too much. For now, I'm here, and trying to not make things worse, and I'm working on ME, but I've come to see that BPDh has to want the marriage, and want to work on himself too, instead of just blaming and projecting all onto me.

Split from Extreme push-pull has an unexpected ending

[Moselle]

Cerulean Blue,

It must be really tough where you are. I'm not sure of the background to your story, but I could have written a very similar story about my relationship in September last year, including the radical acceptance, and the realization that it takes two... .

Hang in there. You are showing immense courage to initiate the change, and it will get better for you!  

Why do you expect that he will appreciate your radical acceptance of him? My experience was the opposite. My SO resented it because she now had to deal with her problems herself. I had accepted that she had a serious mental illness and I stopped trying to fix her. Have you considered that the divorce threats might be a result of your radical acceptance. The pillar of dependence on you has now been withdrawn and the fabric of his reality in being exposed. Your focus on your own life will likely not be well received either. When I was going through this I had no reference in the storm and scant knowledge to navigate. These things are called "extinction bursts" as the pwBPD adjusts to a new reality by trying to manipulate/fight to return to the status quo.

Perhaps have a look at this thread https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=214578.0

[LonelyChild]

I've radically accepted him, yet he seems like he has zero appreciation of that

I do not mean to sound demeaning, but there is a contradiction here. First you say you've radically accepting hem, then you follow that up with "yet HE seems like HE has zero APPRECIATION." That is not what radical acceptance is. Radically accepting something is about you, not about someone else. If you radically accept him, than that is the end of that. You deal with that within yourself, not by expecting a result from him. That would be the opposite of acceptance. My 2 cents.

[Moselle]

I do not mean to sound demeaning, but there is a contradiction here. First you say you've radically accepting hem, then you follow that up with "yet HE seems like HE has zero APPRECIATION." That is not what radical acceptance is.

Hi Lonely. I can empathise with Cerulean blue here. Radical acceptance took me some time to do. It was a process for me more than an event, but it was the most empowering thing. I gave her problems back to her, and I set myself free from them.

[LonelyChild]

I do not mean to sound demeaning, but there is a contradiction here. First you say you've radically accepting hem, then you follow that up with "yet HE seems like HE has zero APPRECIATION." That is not what radical acceptance is.

Hi Lonely. I can empathise with Cerulean blue here. Radical acceptance took me some time to do. It was a process for me more than an event, but it was the most empowering thing. I gave her problems back to her, and I set myself free from them.

You are absolutely right. Perhaps I should have continued with my reply:

Radical acceptance hurts and takes time, focus and energy. But you need to work in that direction - work on things within yourself, there is no room for expecting results. Either you get results, and you can be happy, or you radically accept that he's not going to change, and you move on with life despite the hurt. This is not to say that there are no in-betweens, but this is the direction you want to move in, and the further you move in it, the less codependet you will become. It's going to hurt like a mf, just keep that in mind. But there's much joy and pleasure on the other side of the pain. You can be whole without this mess.

Please read my other posts for some background history - I've been to hell and came back. Life is so much better for me today.

[Ceruleanblue]

The divorce threats have been constant, they are not new. I guess I thought he'd appreciate radical acceptance because I've heard him using that term lately. Silly me.

I don't think I ever tried to "fix" BPDh, but I did try to find out what it was that could be making him act this way. I always knew I couldn't fix him, that only HE can do that. When he finally got help, was after he'd left me, and I calmly stated that whether we reconciled or not, did he really want to spend the rest of his life this way? You know, with all this anger, and the symptoms we know of BPD, NPD, or maybe even APD in his case. I didn't list all those, just left it at "don't you want to be happy, and everyone can benefit from becoming emotionally healthier". Something clicked, not sure what. He went back to his shrink, got put in DBT, stopped seeing his one T he'd been seeing for three years(he got worse while seeing her), and we also started marriage therapy. MC has been a bust, but I'm seeing it's because he's likely not in a good place. It takes two doing the work. Maybe, he has all he can do just going to DBT, although he's certainly not really working the program, as far as I can see. He crams the night before, or day of his session.

I do think the dynamics have changed, and while I still want to stay, I can't say that he does, as he changes his mind so often. He now knows I'll give him that divorce, if he really wants it, and that I'm done begging. I do not need to beg to stay married to anyone.

[Ceruleanblue]

And maybe I've gotten it all wrong, but from what I've read, and learned Radical Acceptance is about both of us. It's accepting that he is what he is, and I can't change that, that I can only work on and change ME. It's accepting that he has a disorder, or pattern of behaviors that may never change much, or might change a lot, but that is not on ME. I have to accept that he has a mental illness, and try to do the best with it, and not make it worse.

Simple as that.

I only thought he might appreciate it because it's now on his radar, and because I'd think my radically accepting him, good, bad, indifferent, would be very VALIDATING. It's certainly something I'd love, but realize he and I are nothing alike in our thinking, and I can't project what I'd like onto him. Just know him, I thought he'd actually appreciate it, because he always expressed that his ex was always trying to change him. I know there is no changing him, that if he changes, it's because he chooses to.

[LonelyChild]

I only thought he might appreciate it because it's now on his radar, and because I'd think my radically accepting him, good, bad, indifferent, would be very VALIDATING. It's certainly something I'd love, but realize he and I are nothing alike in our thinking, and I can't project what I'd like onto him. Just know him, I thought he'd actually appreciate it, because he always expressed that his ex was always trying to change him. I know there is no changing him, that if he changes, it's because he chooses to.

For how long have you been in this situation? Has it gotten much better or worse, or is it status quo?

[Ceruleanblue]

I love this link dealing about radical acceptance:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90041.0

[Ceruleanblue]

I've been in this for over four years. Like most of us, at first things were great(idealization phase), then after we married, it quickly went downhill. He revealed his true self, and I got knocked off the pedestal.

He left me last year, I'm still shocked we reconciled, and for about three or four months, things were much, much better. Things started going bad a couple months back. The negative thinking seemed to come back to him, and the blame, and it seems to me like he has let resentments pile up. I forgive him daily, but he can't or won't forgive and truly move forward.

I can't change his reality, only he can, but I sure can work on ME, which I'm always doing. I think being a good person is something we can work on daily, and we never stop being given the chances to do better or start anew.

[LonelyChild]

... .

What would it mean to you if you were to work in the direction of leaving this situation and building a new life?

[Ceruleanblue]

I want to stay married, but I am trying to prepare a future where I'll be okay financially and otherwise, if he just walks out again.

To me, that meant applying for a job, and maybe going back to school. I've also got myself back in therapy, and just having a plan, and still trying to work on the marriage, has made me feel so much better. Even after a terrible day like yesterday.

I sort of feel like I'm building a new life, right now, while still being married. I'm taking better care of me, and I'm making friends, and I'm not putting so much focus on just the relationship. All this, is good whether I stay married, or end up alone.

[OnceConfused]

I really don't understand the whole concept of RADICAL ACCEPTANCE but I don't think radical acceptance means I understand your position though different than mine, I then accept that (meaning I will not try to change you and your position). It does not implies I have to be continually or continuously  to be abused by you. 

I am who I am and you are who you are. If we can meet half way that is wonderful and we cannot then we should depart.

I am afraid that someone uses the concept of radical acceptance to say you have to succumb to my demands, you have to live under my rules and you are my door mat.

[MaybeSo]

Pain mixed in with chronic lack of acceptance (about things we cannot change) equals suffering and even stuck suffering.

Radical acceptance - remember the word radical - complete, total, all the way (about that which we have no control over)

Turning the mind over and over and over and over.  (toward the path of acceptance)

And willingness - entering life with willingness.  (being involved in and taking responsibility for your own life)

Now, I know that these are really difficult skills.  They, they've been difficult for me.  They are difficult for everybody I know.  And the facts of the matter are, every single person  I know is practicing these skills.

None of this has anything to do with accepting abuse.  

It may involve radical acceptance that another person is abusive or unable to meet our needs,  and with that radical acceptance... .to make responsible decisions for yourself  and to take charge of your own life based on your radical acceptance of reality.  

[Ceruleanblue]

Yes, I've radically accepted that BPDh has a disorder, whether it's BPD/NPD, or APD/NPD, and I know there is nothing I can do but accept it. I think I learned about radical acceptance years ago, I just didn't call it radical acceptance. I have obsessive tendencies, but don't do any of the checking associated with OCD, and I also have occasional general anxiety. I used to feel really bad about it, and even after doing therapy, and educating myself, it got some better, but it's still there, and I used to feel badly about that. At some point, I just decided to accept it, and accept that I have these issues, but they don't DEFINE me, and that I can actually channel them for good. I had radically accepted me, long before I had to do it with BPDh.

And NO, I do not radically accept abuse, and I don't feel I am suffering. I feel I have low moments sometimes, but I shake them off pretty fast now days. I won't stuff emotions, but I don't wallow either. BPDh and I had a talk yesterday regarding the physical abuse, and he knows I think it's awful, and he knows I've never put up with this from anyone else, and he knows it needs to stop. I don't think that is a boundary, per se, but I did address it.

Ideas for putting a boundary around they physical abuse issue would be appreciated.

[Moselle]

Cerulean Blue,

My heart really goes out to you because I know the emotional pain and numbness associated with physical abuse. It's not OK ... .ever

I can speak from experience because my wife used to hit me. One day I woke up and said to her "If you hit me again, you will be served with divorce papers within the week"

She never hit me again after that.

I was actually unaware that I was in an abusive relationship! Once the truth began to be revealed, mostly by participating on this website, my tolerance of abuse (physical, emotional and mental) became significantly curtailed, and my understanding of BPD/NPD grew

That lack of tolerance of abuse has ultimately led to a divorce, however I am proud of my stand. It took alot to admit that I was a victim of abuse, but once I did, the power shifted away from her because I brought it out into the open. The power is in the secret. I suggest you let people know and let him know someone knows. It will stop.

Its very clear to me, and I have told every interested party since that if they hit me, I will quietly lead them to the door and they may leave... .permanently.

For me this boundary is very rigid. And I have very little sense of humour when it comes to abusers, BPD or otherwise.

[Ceruleanblue]

Yes, I've always, always thought he was abusive, I mean, since we married, and he actually showed me the "real" him. He was pretty careful to hide it before that. It was classic bait and switch, I feel. I was put on a pedestal, I got the wonderful "fake" him, and then real life happened, and he knocked me off the pedestal, and he peeled the mask off.

What's scary is that he still is justifying the abuse. BPD/NPD or even if he's APD, that is no excuse. He's able to control it when he wants to, and the mere fact that he's blaming ME, just makes it that much more disturbing. From what I've read, lots of abusers are at least sorry after. BPDh will admit that he "shouldn't have" gotten physical, but he always follows that statement by "you triggered me", or "you were doing this or that". Never mind that I didn't mean to trigger him, and never mind that that is STILL no excuse! He doesn't want to admit he's wrong, ever. He hurts me, it's MY fault? That is some serious lack of logic, or empathy, or taking responsibility for his own actions.

I'm having to come to terms with the fact that his DBT doesn't seem to be working. Likely due to the fact that he's not really doing the work.

[Notwendy]

CB - whether he feels remorse or not - or whatever his reasons are- deal with the behavior. Either physical abuse is unacceptable to you or it is acceptable. As long as you are willing to allow it because of one reason or another - it will continue. If you wait for him to have some kind of epiphany then get ready to wait forever because what you see now is what is happening now. Radical acceptance includes seeing clearly what is happening - not a maybe or an if only or if I am nice enough than it will change . None of that thinking is accepting reality.

Although other can post that abuse is unacceptable to them, until you believe that it is unacceptable to you, then this behavior is likely to continue. Although we speak of people who are abused as victims - the other side of this is that victims are powerless. You are not powerless to do nothing. The ability to set a boundary on abuse is yours. The question is if you are willing to enforce it.

Admittedly that isn't easy to do. It is scary and emotional to rock the boat. You have to consider if it is safe for you to do so. IMHO I suggest you consult a counselor about ways to do this with an emotionally volatile spouse.

[Moselle]

Ceruleanblue, this is hard. You can do it. 

Are you comfortable to be specific about the physical abuse? What does he do?

That is some serious lack of logic, or empathy, or taking responsibility for his own actions.

Any way we spin it, this is BPD! Its a serious mental illness.

I'm having to come to terms with the fact that his DBT doesn't seem to be working. Likely due to the fact that he's not really doing the work.

You're probably right. Did he opt for the therapy or did you help him get into it?

[sweetheart]

Cerulean Blue,

My heart really goes out to you because I know the emotional pain and numbness associated with physical abuse. It's not OK ... .ever

I can speak from experience because my wife used to hit me. One day I woke up and said to her "If you hit me again, you will be served with divorce papers within a week."

For me this boundary is very rigid. And I have very little sense of humour when it comes to abusers, BPD or otherwise.

From what I can hear in your posts CB your stumbling block to setting effective boundaries is that you are scared to leave your marriage.

The boundary that Moselle put in place is where your focus needs to be, but because you are scared of the consequences of this boundary, you are unable to implement it.

I do think that boundaries around physical violence need to be black and white, because otherwise you move into the murky area of intermittent reinforcement which can escalate physically abusive behaviours exponentially.

There are of course strategies that you can put in place to prevent conflict escalation, but ultimately all the time you continue to prevaricate on this issue nothing will change.

Conflict will continue all the time the roles of victim and persecutor are fulfilled.

Can you see how your inaction perpetuates your role as victim within any conflict?

Are there times when your husband claims to be a victim to you as his persecutor, can you think of examples of this and how you might change these dynamics?

[Ceruleanblue]

Oh, no matter that I never initiate anything physical, he will say I'm being crappy(in more abusive language, even though I wasn't), and to HIM, that justifies him getting physical with me. I actually think his DBT has reinforces this to some degree. He now talks about how I "trigger" him. Well, that isn't hard, I can "trigger" him without meaning to at all. Some of this triggers I know, of course, but tons of them are just so random, and he's like a ticking time bomb. I think he's always LOOKING for things to be upset about.

He really, really like to play victim. Heck, he HAS victimized me, but I feel anything than like a victim. It's been my choice to stay, have empathy for him, and it's harder to stay than leave.

I don't stay just because I'm afraid to leave him. In fact, I'm always figuring out ways to do so in my head, and it doesn't hold the fear for me it once did. I have a sort of escape plan in mind, but it will take some time. I'm just trying to make my life better, until that time comes. I'd like to get my education, but I may not last that long.

I am willing to set boundaries around the physical abuse, and I even brought it up this week in MC. I'm sort of upset at how our therapist dealt with the issue. I feel he let BPDh off the hook way too easily, and bought into the ways BPDh justifies the physical abuse. BPDh blatantly asked me of the incidences where he attacked me unprovoked, and I think our therapist should have stopped him right there! How did I ever deserve to be attacked, no matter what I did, and I never did anything to warrant physical abuse. It just left me feeling I don't even want to go back to MC... .

Anyone who justifies abuse is just wrong. Anyone who doesn't take a hard and fast line about abuse, is just wrong. The abuse can almost always justify it, or wants to blame the other person.

[Moselle]

Hey CB,

I can empathise with you on this. I'm so sorry you aren't being taken seriously.

[sweetheart]

CB it is really important that you don't bring up the subject of physical abuse anywhere with your h, it automatically places you in a persecutory role with your h easily assuming a victim stance and attributing fault with you. From what you have said about your h he is someone who blames others and is very unlikely to accept responsibility for his actions.

What are the boundaries you plan to put in place?

MC is not a place that is used to resolve issues around domestic violence. The reason for this is also the reason why MC is not recommended for high conflict couples, and it is because it creates triggers which can lead to further episodes of violence.

The person that has to take the hard and fast line against abuse is you. The place to deal with how you feel and boundary enforcement around physical violence is within the safety of your own therapy.

Be careful CB, be safe.