Tips for what to include in a divorce settlement?

[Moselle]

Hello all,

I'm drafting a response to my ridiculous BPD/NPD wife's settlement proposal where I pay for everything and have restricted parenting rights

From anybody's experience, are there any key points to include in a settlement agreement with a BPD/NPD ex spouse?

[livednlearned]

Hi Moselle,

The most important thing I learned (60+ filings in 4 years) is to close all loop holes. Lawyers, even good ones, think that it's enough to say, ":)o this, don't do that" in the orders. I learned the hard way that you have to have contingencies and consequences for everything. Otherwise, when your BPD ex defies the court order, and you end up in court to enforce it, you want to be sure that the judge rules favorably and doesn't allow your ex to have three and four bites at the apple. It's not only expensive and time-consuming to let the court give three and four chances, it prolongs the grief of whatever it is you're fighting to uphold. And chances are, if you're in court, it's because something serious is happening and you don't want to wait.

An example might be consequences for a parent who denies visitation is xyz. (You might also want to start a thread about "rights of first refusal" to get a feel for how tricky this can be.

The Lessons at the top of the board have a lot of useful information for thinking through the different points you might want to consider (Lesson 3, Anatomy of a Divorce, if I remember correctly).

Everyone has different situations and the laws vary by state, so things vary -- it's hard to recommend key points. Also, the degree of BPD severity, which is often in full effect during the volatility of early divorce can cause things to vary. Bill Eddy describes three kinds of high-conflict personality -- your wife sounds like she would fall under "not cooperative, dangerous" because she is willing to make false allegations and file ROs. For that reason, you'll want to consider different points in your settlement.

Good material to help you think through the counter proposal:

A Theory of the Pattern of Blame and High-Conflict Family Law Matters and Personality Disorders. These will help you determine the level of risk you face divorcing your spouse and plan accordingly.

[Moselle]

Thanks L&L. She's being so nice at the moment. Perhaps she has healed her PD, or perhaps she's just manipulating to get a better settlement ☺

She also managed to crash my SUV which she appropriated, into a tree stump over the weekend. Oh the joy

[ForeverDad]

I haven't heard of anyone recovering virtually overnight.  Recovery is not a sudden insight, it's a long arduous process to change a mindset, a way of thinking, yes with some relapses along the way, but overall Progress toward a more normal perspective.

It is much more likely to be your second mention, "perhaps she's just manipulating to get a better settlement".  Better to be safe with cautious and firm boundaries at this point.  Your parenting should be at the top of your list.  Also, limit the financial drain and exposure as much as possible, preserve your long term prospects as much as possible.

[livednlearned]

To your original question, I would also add that it's important to think about the long game when you enter negotiations with someone who has BPD. Unless you have amazing leverage, there is a good chance that you will be building a long term relationship with your lawyer.

Whatever counter offer you make, be sure to leave yourself some room to negotiate so that she feels like she won. Her lawyer, if he or she is assertive and not aggressive, will most likely support whatever demands she makes at first, and then that support will begin to wane. Over time, most lawyers will want their client to settle, and will begin to say that the deal is the best they'll get, etc. You need to keep offering small things so that it doesn't become full-out adversarial -- that's where you lose buckets of money and everyone ends up miserable.

For example, make a demand that you actually don't care about -- like picking up and dropping off the kids (so she doesn't come to your house). Or the exact time/place of the exchange and who can be present (like police station). And then give it up when she insists on doing things her way.

So counter with an equally ideal and non-reasonable settlement. They just want to know where you stand, so tell them you got their message, that the first offer is going to be dream come true or something close.

That gives you room to get down to the nuts and bolts as you enter negotiations.

And don't let your lawyer negotiate with the other L without your consent. There needs to be some bluffing in this, and you can't have your L saying, "My client is just asking for this because he wants your client to feel like she won."

[Moselle]

Thanks so much!

I have a bit of leverage in terms of debt which I am settling, but the idea of putting concessions in up front is very smart. I will put lots in.

I'm exhausted by this nonsense. I'm so glad you guys are here with these ideas. Thanks all for your useful comments.

My lawyer who is very good has already tried to settle. I stuck firm to my numbers and didn't fold.

[livednlearned]

One other thing... .

There's an article on the site that says it can take 4-8 years to recover emotionally and psychologically from a divorce. I wish I had read that. It would've helped me pace myself, instead of thinking that the settlement, or the official divorce, or any of the hearings meant that things were over. We all want things to end, but the definition of high-conflict means that they don't. They do get easier to manage, and I remember so clearly the first day when I realized I actually felt really good  it's just that these divorces tend to drag on in one way or another.

I also wish I understand that so that I stood firm during the initial negotiation. I didn't have this place back then! And ended up giving my ex the house, which took multiple hearings and a lot of money to finalize. It literally cost me money to get rid of the house   and in large part because I didn't have any contingencies or consequences listed in the order. It just said N/BPDx had a year to refinance. So when a year, then two passed and he was stalling, when we went back to court the judge just gave him an extension. I wish I had written in the order that if N/BPDx failed to refinance the house by date/year, then he was responsible for any legal fees I had to accrue for compliance. Or he had to give me a lump sum in equity. Something to motivate him to do what he agreed to do.

Sorry to keep rambling on like this. It's painful to learn the hard way, and I probably try to resolve the agony of those last 4 years by hoping someone else avoids the same fate. 

[Moselle]

You're so kind L&L.

I'm so exhausted I can't think any more.

Does it really that that long to heal? I'm adamant that we not see eachother or speak for the first two years.

[livednlearned]

You're so kind L&L.

I'm so exhausted I can't think any more.

Does it really that that long to heal? I'm adamant that we not see eachother or speak for the first two years.

I don't think it takes 4 years, or 8 years to heal enough. A lot depends on us. At the 2 year mark, I felt good. I was also in big legal debt, barely hanging on in my degree program, juggling the struggles of solo parenting, you know -- the grind. Even so, I felt really good. I wanted to feel good, and I treated that goal like my life depended on it. I had a really good therapist and did whatever she recommended, even if it felt risky, scary, etc.

That's the good-bad news. You're in charge of how long it takes.

My ex was very high-conflict from a legal standpoint, and my healing was largely independent of how badly he behaved.

I'm approaching the 4 year mark in November this year. I probably won't clear my debt for a while (I work full time, but am also still in school), so financial recovery is still a few years out. Emotionally and psychologically, I feel better than I ever have in my life, dating a great guy for the last 2.5 years, the best relationship I've ever had.

So no, it doesn't have to take 4 years, it's really how motivated you are, how much you want to set this bag down.

I highly recommend mindfulness-based stress reduction classes  That really accelerated my healing, in addition to a good therapist.

[ugghh]

Moselle,

If you care to share it would be helpful a bit to know a country / state and the ages of the children involved.

LivedNLearned has given you some good pointers already to which I would add the following thoughts that I used in negotiating with my ex.

1) Always focus on the long game.

2) Work toward minimizing financial entanglements with your stbx.  You want to eliminate anything with the word joint - joint property, joint bank accounts, joint debt, etc.

3) As you negotiate, focus on keeping the process moving.  For example, when I moved out, my uBPDxw filed a motion for temporary support.  I agreed to pay the mortgage payment in total, but in return I got her to agree to be responsible for the utilities.  Before I moved out I was paying for both the mortgage and utilities.  I could have went for 50/50 on both but instead I presented it as me being generous to pay the whole mortgage and more importantly I got the ex to take some responsibility for the bills she alone was generating and accustomed to paying utility bills which she would have to do once the divorce was complete.

4) Remember that pwBPD are typically completely out of touch with the reality of daily life.  The best way to fight fiction is with facts.  For example as part of the process we were each asked to lay out our projected expenses after the divorce.  Not only did my ex overinflate almost every expense, she threw in items that we never had (i.e. she declared that since we were divorcing she would now need $300/month for maid service -  ).  I compiled the prior six months of household expenses, grouped them by major category (utilities, insurance, groceries, fuel for cars, etc.) and then allocated them to either her column, my column or both.  I then jotted my allocation logic to the right.

5) When it gets down to wire, lawyers often start tossing numbers around quite easily.  It is incumbent on you to know your finances best and know where you can give and not give.  For example my ex valued our residence at the amount on the tax assessors rolls.  This would have been an okay number except that she was a hoarder and had a somewhat stylized decor.  I knew it was unsellable at that price in the current state.   We agreed that she would get all of the anticipated equity from the house in return for me keeping all of my retirement.  She eventually sold the house for $30,000 under the assessment to a neighbor who put in $20,000 more and flipped it for a tidy profit.

6) Avoid situations where you become financially or otherwise responsible for decisions in which you do not have control.  For example, say you and the stbx agree that college education is important and you both want to support the children in college.  Instead of agreeing to a 50/50 split, you agree to pay an amount equal to 50% of the tuition, double occupancy room and board at state university X.  Now substitute day care, music lessons, club soccer, child's car insurance, etc. for college tuition.  The idea is that you never give a BPD a blank check - beyond any court calculated child support, everything must have a limit.

Hang in there, sometimes the sheer ludicrousness of their demands can be exhausting.  Work on your side when you can.  Some days you need to put it down and have a break. 

[formflier]

There's an article on the site that says it can take 4-8 years to recover emotionally and psychologically from a divorce. 

Moselle,

Hang in there man... .haven't chatted with you in a while.  I read over here every so often... don't post here much.

My sister in law (many of the same... .wonderful BPDish traits as my wife) is at the 8-10 year mark in their divorce... .and they are just not starting to be reasonable and parent jointly.  Last few years kids have really acted out... .and I think some counselors got to them and convinced them to focus on kids... .vice "the war" between them.

First couple years of divorce were just as bad as last few of marriage.  I'm still close with my ex bro in law.  His advice... ."if you are not willing to go to the mat on an issue (take it back to court)... .don't put it in the divorce decree"

They tried the right of first refusal thing... .but it turned into more of a game of keep away... .and "proving" it was hard.

That being said... my ex bro in law is a bit more passive that I am... .not a fighter.

He let a lot of stuff "wash over him" that I thought he should have fought.  But... .he seems to be happy and relaxed now... .and has a good life.

Think about what matters to you... .and honestly ask if it is part of "the war"... .or if it really matters.

Hang in there man!

FF

[Moselle]

Thanks Form.

Mine will learn that if she sends a mortar, she gets some "shock and awe" tomahawk missiles in return.

I want her conditioned to the fact that she cannot win. Ever! I will not compromise. I don't pick fights, but when someone crosses the line with me, they get cold immovable steel.

That night in Jan when she was trying to kick me out of the bed, which ultimately led to a massive break up and the divorce, was a seminal moment. She realised that night that I will not bend to her horrible notions, and I'm sticking to my decision that night. I have conceded nothing since. Not a thing, and she will get used to that. An immovable ex-husband.

First up she will get an impossibly onerous settlement agreement, and a two year NC (verbal and F2F) agreement with me.

Every infraction on her part will be met with full legal recourse without exception, until she realises that there is no point resisting.

I have my records of all her behaviour including recordings or her rages. She panicked the other day when she realised it was all going to come out in court, and withdrew her bogus DV charge. It's all ready and she knows it. I'm happy for it to be there as a deterrant, but she now knows I'll use it if pushed.

I don't expect her to get better, I don't expect her to ever co-operate as a parent, but comply she will, even if it takes her 10 or 15 years to learn. Her family and friends who want to support the nonsense become sniper targets. Those who choose to be complicit with her will get picked off one by one. Two fat targets in my sights right now will find out just what it means to support an abuser.

Form, I tried to avoid this fight with all my heart, and I don't wish it on anyone, but it is here now and I'll fight to win.

 

[formflier]

Form, I tried to avoid this fight with all my heart, and I don't wish it on anyone, but it is here now and I'll fight to win.

 

I know you did... .

People think (tell me) that because I am a military guy... .I like fighting... .etc etc.  I don't... but... .just like in war... .if you are going to pick a fight... .win it.

One thing I would encourage you to ask... .and seriously consider from the veterans of the family law board (I'm not one of them... )... .is to help you see the difference in a battle and the war.

In battles... .you need to be smart... .make sure you are expending energy to win the war.

You can't afford to loose the war.

You don't have to win every battle.

What is her "center of gravity"?

I'll hush... .hopefully some board veterans can translate what I said into something practical.

FF

[Moselle]

If you care to share it would be helpful a bit to know a country / state and the ages of the children involved.

Ugghh thanks for the tips. Just got off the phone with my lawyer. I'm so grateful that she gets it.

I'm in South Africa, the children are 14, 11 and 6, and all three are girls.

[Moselle]

One thing I would encourage you to ask... .and seriously consider from the veterans of the family law board (I'm not one of them... )... .is to help you see the difference in a battle and the war.

In battles... .you need to be smart... .make sure you are expending energy to win the war.

You can't afford to loose the war.

You don't have to win every battle.

What is her "center of gravity"?

Very wise - thank you. I have retreated on one battle which I couldn't win when she moved without my knowledge. I could have had a high court order to have her brought back, but with me on the road for business so much, it would have been a failure.

OK, I've regrouped, and managed keep the same job and move to a city closeby, with my company paying the removal costs :-). 5 hours drive as opposed to 22 hrs, where I can get to the children for weekends.

Defeated the DV, now its a pitch battle for the settlement agreement. But I have a few aces to play when I push for final settlement, which I'll not share here.

Her centre of gravilty is the people around her her who she emotionally recruits to fight her battles for her. Her family and previously 'our' friends. That's why I'm going to teach two of them how uncomfortable that complicity is with two sniper bullets. They will hurt, but but it will hopefully make others think carefully before getting involved.

[ForeverDad]

If she doesn't earn as much as you then it may be hard for you to get her to pay her half of the exchange travel costs, but do try to get something.  For example, exchanges at her residence may be confrontational or triggering for her so meeting halfway or at a neutral location somewhat in your direction could be advantageous for you.  Or take advantage of bus service if available.

And due to the distance try to get more than half of the longer school vacations such as Winter Break, Spring Break and long holidays.  When school is out during the summer get additional time above and beyond the standard 2 or 3 weeks total for vacations typically allowed.

[formflier]

 

Go on offense... .since she is obviously fine with moving on short notice... .you will pay her moving expenses to the city where you live... .

Or... .she can pay half of the travel expenses...

Present choices where you "win" with whatever she chooses... .

FF

[Moselle]

Haha, I want the children, but I do not want to see her for 2 years, let alone relocate her and set her up where I am.

Really, I will only sign a settlement that includes this 2 year parallel parenting clause. We have to reduce the conflict the children experience. 

[formflier]

Haha, I want the children, but I do not want to see her for 2 years, let alone relocate her and set her up where I am.

Really, I will only sign a settlement that includes this 2 year parallel parenting clause. We have to reduce the conflict the children experience. 

Do you think there is a chance she would take you up on the offer?  To move her? 

FF

[GaGrl]

Form, I tried to avoid this fight with all my heart, and I don't wish it on anyone, but it is here now and I'll fight to win.

 

I know you did... .

People think (tell me) that because I am a military guy... .I like fighting... .etc etc.  I don't... but... .just like in war... .if you are going to pick a fight... .win it.

One thing I would encourage you to ask... .and seriously consider from the veterans of the family law board (I'm not one of them... )... .is to help you see the difference in a battle and the war.

In battles... .you need to be smart... .make sure you are expending energy to win the war.

You can't afford to loose the war.

You don't have to win every battle.

What is her "center of gravity"?

I'll hush... .hopefully some board veterans can translate what I said into something practical.

FF

My DH, a retired Army Infantry officer, will repeat the military wisdom that the LAST group to desire a war is the military -yes, be trained and ready, but don't go to war if there is an alternative.

The question becomes... .what is the alternative to full-scale war?

DH found in his divorce with The Dark PRincess that it required finding what he named the "hot button" ( the equivalent of the POTUS's "football)... .the absolute, bottom line issue that she did not want publicized in court and that became the point of backing down or nuclear war.

[ForeverDad]

... .We have to reduce the conflict the children experience.

Frankly, you can't make her take her hand off the Conflict dial.  Yes, you can maneuver things and phrase things to avoid some of her triggers and overreactions but... .she will still find ways to act out, obstruct, sabotage, turn up the heat, beat the drums of war, whatever phrase you want to use.  What you need to do is have strategies to limit the impact and keep things more or less on the right path.

I recall that our lawyers, court and the other professionals expected the conflict to subside once we had our final decree as it does in most cases.  It didn't happen for us.  I was fortunate because I, a Father, managed to gain custody and, eventually, majority parenting time (during the school year only).  As her sense of entitlement grew weaker in the face of my increasing parenting, her claims, guiltings and allegations became more and more toothless.  I recall that one of the paragraphs stating I had a Change of Circumstances, basis to seek custody, included mention that she had made a new allegation that I had choked her years before.  False of course, but not one person asked me about it.  By then she had lost a lot of credibility.

[Moselle]

Haha, I want the children, but I do not want to see her for 2 years, let alone relocate her and set her up where I am.

Really, I will only sign a settlement that includes this 2 year parallel parenting clause. We have to reduce the conflict the children experience. 

Do you think there is a chance she would take you up on the offer?  To move her? 

FF

Form, not a chance.

[Moselle]

DH found in his divorce with The Dark PRincess that it required finding what he named the "hot button" ( the equivalent of the POTUS's "football)... .the absolute, bottom line issue that she did not want publicized in court and that became the point of backing down or nuclear war.

I have a few of these in my pocket. I recognise they are only powerful when they haven't been played. If she pushes me too far, I may have to play one or two. I'd prefer not to. Its very tempting to try an put the record straight after the divorce, by playing them. Any advice on that. There's part of me that wants to put the record straight after all the facebook innuendo, and downright lying.

[formflier]

Moselle,

Save the ammo for court... .the best ammo is the stuff you never shoot... .but scares your "enemy" that you have it.

Ok... enough for the military perspective...

General life lessons:  (According to formflier)  Weird accusations fly in a divorce... .I notice the people that tend to be quieter... .that don't take part in the drama.  People that like the drama... .I generally don't like... .so I don't care if they "know" the truth or not. 

People that believe her stuff... .you don't want to be around... .

FF

[ForeverDad]

Are these incidents or factoids something actionable by court or just what she doesn't want revealed since it would weaken her Mask of Seeming Normalcy?

Be aware that documented incidents have the most weight and 'actionable' power when they are recent.  Bringing something up years later won't get a response from the court, except perhaps as establishing a History of poor behaviors.

I recall my first introduction to family court years ago, the magistrate stopped my testimony about her abusive actions when I worked my way back to incidents that ventured past the 6 month mark.  My court saw events older than 6 months as 'stale', 'not actionable' and didn't even want me to recount them.

I've used this example before to demonstrate the timing aspect of being 'actionable'.  If you called 911 and stated "my spouse attacked me last month" then likely they'd tell you to (1) think about making a police report instead and (2) call back when it is an emergency.

[livednlearned]

Hi moselle,

Not sure how things work in SA, so this may be something more reflective of American courts.

The war analogies, if they help you move the needle from passive to assertive, are ok. If they move you from assertive to aggressive, things could go very very badly and backfire.

Court is not about justice, therefore it can't be about vengeance. It's more procedural and technical than many of us expect. The reason there are bailiffs in family court is because they're needed. A fight between two divorcing parents broke out in my court room once and I was shocked -- my lawyer told me it happens about once a week.    A friend of mine is a magistrate and she speaks with contempt about people who use the courts to make their decisions. That's how she sees 90% of the people who come before her  -- she sees them like children.

Eddy wrote that only 20% of custody battles go to court, and of those, he estimates that most of them involve one party with a PD if not two PDs. These are the people that judges see -- people with PDs. What stands out is when someone comes to court and behaves like a grown up, which can be difficult for a dysregulated person with a PD. In my court, if people sighed too loudly or rolled their eyes, the judge could slap them with contempt of court. I used to visualize before court being at a dinner where the judge was seated next to me, imagining us as peers.

A lot of people walk into court expecting the judge to take sides and make a decision about who is winning. My experience is that the judge respects the person who thinks like a judge. What judges want is for parents to figure out a solution, especially one that is likely to keep the two of you out of court, and always with a focus on what's best for the kids.

That's why coming in with a reasonable, fair solution that includes contingencies/consequences goes a long way. It tells the court that you and the judge share the same goals.

Use leverage -- that's strategically important. Don't use court as a way to get even. You'll lose.

Also, winning, if there is such a thing, feels empty in court. I won custody and had visitation terminated, which I guess could be considered winning. You finally get what you have been working for, and then the gavel comes down and there is just you and your life, and the wreckage that has to be cleaned up.

It felt like... .nothing. My lawyer was grinning from ear and to ear, and all I could think of was my son and how devastating all of this has been to him.  :'(

[Moselle]

L&L, that's great advice. Thank you. I assure it's from passive to assertive. Sometimes I just get so frustrated. If there's two choices and one of them is destructive, she takes the destructive one each time.

I will work on being above it all. I have good days and I have bad ones.

My lawyer was in court on a different matter, and saw her standing there earlier in the week, and she refused to say why. I have to guess what she's up to now, but I don't think it will be constructive