It's Been A Long Time

[raytamtay3]

Hello.   I know I’ve been MIA for quite a long time….  To make a long story short, DD has been in two different RTCs and was due to discharge today (it's been 18 months).  However discharge is now frozen due to this past home pass and a pass two weeks ago where she ended up going to a ghetto town in PA with her friends which resulted in my having to leave work to pick her up at the hospital as they were found on the street puking from taking K2.  :)D denies taking K2 even though she had vomited all over herself (her drug of choice is weed), and while they didn’t test her, I do not believe her.  She acted like the whole ordeal was no big deal.  This past weekend pass, she didn’t come home until 5:00 am each day! Again saying it was no big deal because she wanted to have some fun before she had to go back to school!  So I decided she will not be discharging and it is KILLING me! The first 3 for 4 home passes were great! I am now pushing for her to go to a group home because clearly, she cannot be home.  I am heartbroken because she WAS doing so well. Well enough to discharge. But once again she shot herself in the foot.  I am devastated and pretty much done.  :'(

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Rapt Reader]

Thanks for keeping us in the loop, raytamtay3 

I'm sorry to hear about the setbacks with your daughter, but very glad to see that you have a plan in place for her continued recovery program. Sometimes it takes longer for our children to mature to a place where they can get a good handle on their troubles, and the self-awareness of their need for change... .

You are doing all you can for her, and I just want to tell you to hang in there; you are doing a very good job! We are all pulling for you with this, raytamtay3 

[lbjnltx]

Sorry to hear this raytamtay3... .what kind of accountability will be in place at the RTC for violating rules during her home visit?


Hang in there momma 

[mggt]

Hang in there   

[raytamtay3]

Thanks everyone.  She is what's called "on lodge" for what they consider an awal when she was home.  So she cannot leave her unit for two weeks.

I received a call last night that DD was in the hospital.  She had a panick attack.  The very first one she's ever had.  And I just called over there to talk to her again just now, and she's at the medical center at the facility with the same symptoms.  I feel horrible!  :'(  Is this her way of trying to still get out? That's always the question in the back of my mind. 

[raytamtay3]

Someone from a different boad posted about what the defining moment was for them in realizing the BPD person in their life was not only putting themselves in harms way, but that the non was being put in harms way and that that was their defining moment when they knew it was time to get out.

A few weeks ago three 15 and 16 year old boys made a robbery attempt at one of their "friends" houses in our neighborhood in an effort to steal the "stash" of said friend.  In the struggle, the father of the friend's house they were robbing was stabbed, and had to undergo hours of surgery for a lacerated liver.  The kid who stabbed the father is now in jail for 20 year for attempted murder, among other charges.  My DD had those kids in our home without our knowledge and consent before!  Those same kids she alledgeldly sold my mother's (who lives with us) Xanax too! My mother who is at home alone at our house on hospice! It could have easily been us in other words.  Her 8 year old brother, my husband, my mom, me... . And what's my DD have to say about this? Oh that was back then mom. I haven't hung with those kids in 18 months.  Well yea T, because you've been away! ugh!

I have to keep reminding myself of this to help me not allow her back in our home until I am certain she can maintain a safe existance not only for herself, but for our family as well! But why is even that so hard? And how will I know that will ever happen when ever effort has been foiled?

[kelti1972]

Hi raytamtay3:  We are all with you and good luck.  My son is back home after being kicked out for using hard drugs.  His drug of choice is also weed.  He said he made up the whole story about hard drugs because he was in a panic attack and paranoid and thought we were in danger.  Well after he got out of half-way house and came home under the conditions to stay in therapy and take dbt, he has reconnected with those friends.  He said they are harmless and not only did I let them in my home, I loved them as friends.  Now I am very, very causious, I do not know what to believe or when the next setback or crises will come.

I just try to be very aware and I know that if he slips back too far he is out of our house for good.  We do have to take care of ourselves and our physical and mental health.  Kelti

[infiniteeyes]

Raytamtay3

this must be so hard on you, but know she is in the best place.

My DD also used the panic attack button to get out of school or any other places she didnt want to be, but almost immediately snapped out of it when she got what she wants.

Im not saying this is the case with your DD. And if she is still showing those symptoms this morning then it probably is genuine?

The K2 sounds dodgy. Sometimes an underlying anxiety condition could be triggered by using drugs, be it weed or K2 or any illegal drug, even alcohol.

I hope things settle down for you and your DD soon ...

[raytamtay3]

I'm really struggling with what to do with respect to DD.  While my head is telling me she isn't ready to come home yet because of the past couple of passes, my heart wants to believe she has seen the error or her ways and will make a concertive(sp) effort to go to school and do what she needs to do for the next two years until she could legally leave home (which she cannot wait for).  I am trying to find out how hard or easy it would be for me to have her go to a group home should I in fact allow her to discharge before school starts and if she continues to not follow the house rules.  I know it took a lot to get her in to a program to begin with.  It came down to her having to break the law and be arrested before the state stepped in (I have full rights still) to have her go in to a program.  I just wish someone would just tell me point blank what I should do because I keep flip flopping because I'm mom and my kids are my heart.  I need an objective point of view - other than DH (who is step dad) because he thinks she should be sent away until she's 18.  But this is coming from someone who doesn't have children of his own.  Not that that necessarily means anything, but how can one truly know what it feels like when they never experienced such a strong child-parent bond?

[mamamonkey5]

I think as mom's we always want to hope for the best, because we want the best for our kids. This is some thing I am struggling with, I always go back for more. I am just learning now that I am likely dealing with mental illness which is helping me to have hope that I can at least learn to be more effective, as I don't feel very effective.

I am just posting to say that I understand the pull to hope for and almost feel desperate for the best, to want to believe now it's going to work and be okay, and the devastation that comes with the reality that it's not. From the outside looking in, it doesn't seem like your DD is ready to be successful at home, no matter how badly you wish for that to be the case.

[lbjnltx]

ray,

I understand your desire to have another person come in and make this decision for you, being unsure about what is the right thing to do is painful and scary.  I'd like to think I could do that and be right... .I know that I can't.

It is of the utmost importance for you, your daughter, and both of your futures that you believe in the choices you make, that you know with every fiber of your being that you are making the best possible choices for her.  Why?  Because you will both have to live with the outcomes. 

Stepping out of your fears and stepping into wisemind will help.  Putting the responsibility onto her (within her limitations) to do the work will also help.  Remember, we can only present opportunities... .we cannot orchestrate the outcome.

Looking at all options and likely results (best and worse case), deciding what you are willing to sacrifice, having realistic expectations, strong boundaries you are willing to enforce, and having the skills to support your daughter's efforts without enabling her are some of the points to consider when making these very important decisions.

 I know it is tough and because you love her you will do it.

lbj

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[raytamtay3]

Thank you.  I just reached out to one of the counselors over at the facility also hoping he'd tell me what to do! .  But he said he feels that not making a decision is the best decision right now.  That the decision ultimately lies with DD.  He said he does see the tremendous strides she has made since first being there and that we cannot lose sight of that.  I try not to.  :)H does... .I feel torn again which is making things more difficult for me.  The counselor said that these panic attacks she's having, he feels, are her battling (or fighting) within herself.  I believe this too. When she first started at the program, she fought every single girl that came up against her.  :)id not follow any of the rules there; the ones she could not that is.  But even after this traumatic event of her discharge date being frozen, she has not relapsed in that respect.  However, she's now taken to turning it inwards by having these attacks.  The counselor said he finds that very interesting.  He's her drug counselor btw.

We have family meeting set up for next week.  :)H, DD's dad, the therapist and me.  The counselor reminded me that no decision really needs to be made yet about DD's future other than perhaps having her extend her stay a few weeks until a final decision is made.  Sounds like a decent plan.  But lucky me... .that just means I get to torment myself even more too. .  Ugh.  Thanks again everyone.

[raytamtay3]

Welp - she's back to physically fighting again.  And has all the other girls going at it again now too.

I am going to visit her Sunday and am having anxiety about it.  I cannot bring myself to tell her I am going to recommend she go to a group home when she tells me that the therapist told her it's me she needs to convince she's ready to come home, not the therapist, and when she will be able to.  I've been dodging this question pending our family session secheduled for next Friday.  She told me today that her father said if I don't let her come home to my house, he will.  This from a man who keeps using the excuse that if he keeps getting calls from school that she's suspended, how he wouldn't be able to leave because he'd get fired. And how if he got fired, he wouldn't be able to collect unemployment.  Yet when I turn it around on him and say well I face the same risk says, well at least you could collect. Well um, no I wouldn't be able to as everyone knows, if you get fired from a job, you cannot collect. Ugh. I'm surrounded... .

[js friend]

Hi Raytamtay,


This must be so difficult for you.

I didnt send my dd to RTC but did think about it at the time because nothing else seemed to be working at the time and I looked into it. What happens when there is little to no improvement to show for their time there? I dont know... .this is such a tough one... .

I real feel it  for you.

[raytamtay3]

Hi Raytamtay,


What happens when there is little to no improvement to show for their time there? I dont know... .this is such a tough one... .

Hi.  Then it becomes a matter of just keeping her safe until I'm legally unable to.

[raytamtay3]

I am most definitely in FOG right now.  Everyone around me is telling me, with the exception of DD’s father, that she isn’t ready to come home yet.  I still am looking through rose colored glasses, whereas they are not. 

She is right back to where she was before going away.  I recognize this.  She is back to throwing fits when she doesn’t get her way which includes cursing, throwing things and has broken her door yet again by slamming it so hard.  Leaving lights on and when I ask her to please turn them off, screaming at me that she isn’t finished in that room yet.  Having a friend pose as me to speak to my mom to ok her giving DD money.  Staying out until the morning hours.  Ending up in ghetto towns within both my and my ex’s state.  Testing positive for not only weed now, but cocaine as well that she claims must have been in the weed…

 

It seems for every step forward she takes three steps back.  She had one week left before discharge and she decided to throw caution to the wind and sabotage herself with all of the aforementioned incidences.  Now she’s back to crying about wanting to start school; waning to live a normal teenage life, when she cannot even follow “normal” teenage rules. That I am ruining her life by making her stay.

But once again this is killing me.  It’s consuming my every waking hour.  The guilt I feel of making her stay there or suggesting she go to a group home is torture.  I want to believe she can come home and lead a productive life.  But in my gut I just don’t see that happening because if she could, why on earth would she pull all the crap when she had one week left until discharge? A “normal” person would wait until after discharge…

It took so many hoops to jump through to get her in to a program where at least I’ve felt I can protect her from herself.  She talks such a good talk. Her actions speak otherwise.

Her father is telling me that I need to give her a chance, yet comes up with every excuse in the book when I say that I have tried everything and that if he feels she deserves yet another chance, he can have a go at it.  So the burden is on me.  The guilt falls on me AGAIN. He’s feeding in to her that it’s my DH who doesn’t want her home and that HE is the one brain washing me.

Yes she has made tremendous strides at the facility, but that’s because she has structure and is on lock down. At home no matter what consequence I throw her way, she pushes through them and does what she wants to do again. DS is suffering again as a result.  How can I try and teach him to follow rules when he sees her getting away with cursing at me, throwing things and doing what she wants to do with no regard to consequences? What example is that for him?

I wish the magic 8 ball would tell me what to do. I feel so torn between what my head is saying needs to happen and what my heart is feeling. I simply don’t know what the best solution is.  What I do know is her being with me is not working. I continue to give in in an effort to protect my son from witnessing more of the insanity that arises when she doesn’t get her way. I take ownership of my transgressions through this process. I know I didn’t cause her illness, but I know my actions don’t help matters. But I also know I cannot take the stress anymore.   Thanks for letting me vent.

[lbjnltx]

Dear raytamtay3,

You can't wish her into wellness, you can't love her into healing, you can't protect her from herself in the outside world.

Is placement into a different program an option?

You can make another sacrifice out of love... .don't bring her home.  When we discipline, make choices in their best interest, and endure heartache for their well being it is the act of a loving parent.  That does not mean she will understand it that way.  Nevertheless it changes nothing regarding your responsibility to make the best choice for her.  She is still a child, she is not mentally or emotionally well and this is when she needs you to be strong and do what is best for her.

These are difficult decisions and need to be made for all the right reasons, in wisemind, and future thinking mindframe.



lbj

[raytamtay3]

Dear raytamtay3,

You can't wish her into wellness, you can't love her into healing, you can't protect her from herself in the outside world.

Is placement into a different program an option?

You can make another sacrifice out of love... .don't bring her home.  When we discipline, make choices in their best interest, and endure heartache for their well being it is the act of a loving parent.  That does not mean she will understand it that way.  Nevertheless it changes nothing regarding your responsibility to make the best choice for her.  She is still a child, she is not mentally or emotionally well and this is when she needs you to be strong and do what is best for her.

These are difficult decisions and need to be made for all the right reasons, in wisemind, and future thinking mindframe.



lbj

Thanks lb.  Exactly what I'm needing to hear (read)/ 

[raytamtay3]

I cut and pasted your message as a reminder to me when I need it. 

[lbjnltx]

You are most welcome dear.

I know how difficult this is... .I made the decision to send my daughter back to her RTC for 6 weeks when she began slipping into old thinking patterns and dysfunctional behaviors again.

lbj

[raytamtay3]

Tomorrow is our family session.  :)H is coming as back up/support for me, as I envision DD16 and EXH ganging up on me as is evident by the recent calls with both.

I have the sense that EXH is going to say he will take her.  And I am thinking of giving him full custody to do so, against my better judgement and pay child support (I had to when we shared 50/50 custody as my income is significantly more than his).  He relinquished 50% of custody to me 3 years ago as he could not handle her and thought where I lived would be better for her. As we know, it made no difference.

I know that it isn’t a good idea for her to live with him because he constantly puts her down when she does something remotely wrong (I believe he is a narcisst and has BD traits and also is definetly OCD), but at the same time, I know she cannot come back to my house and in my opinion, should remain in an RTC or go to a group home. But I’m also to the point where I think it’s time he should be reminded of the hell it is living with DD so that he stops making me feel like a horrible mother for sending her away and saying I need to give her yet another chance.  What that would mean is all state help will go away as well because he lives in PA and I live in NJ. Thoughts?

She had her bf from PA text me yesterday (I’m guessing to bait me) saying what a wonderful conversation they had.  How they talked about going to school together, football games, joining soccer together and college dreams. I did not respond.  I know it was probably a means to see what my plans were as I basically have only told DD that I don’t feel she’s ready to come home yet.  Which resulted in her throwing a fit and my having to end the call.  That was a week ago…

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

Tomorrow is our family session.  DH is coming as back up/support for me, as I envision DD16 and EXH ganging up on me as is evident by the recent calls with both.

I have the sense that EXH is going to say he will take her.  And I am thinking of giving him full custody to do so, against my better judgement.  He relinquished 50% of custody to me 3 years ago as he could not handle her and thought where I lived would be better for her. As we know, it made no difference.

I know that it isn’t a good idea for her to live with him, but at the same time, I know she cannot come back to my house and in my opinion, should remain in an RTC or go to a group home. But I’m also to the point where I think it’s time he should be reminded of the hell it is living with DD so that he stops making me feel like a horrible mother for sending her away.  Thoughts?

Make the best choice for your daughter.  Set aside what you would like your ex to realize.  You know your truth and don't need him to validate the hell you have been through (it would be nice and won't help your daughter... .it can be harmful to her).

She had her bf text me yesterday (I’m guessing) saying what a wonderful conversation they had.  How they talked about going to school together, football games, joining soccer together and college dreams. I did not respond.  I know it was probably a means to see what my plans were as I basically have only told DD that I don’t feel she’s ready to come home yet.  Which resulted in her throwing a fit and my having to end the call.  That was a week ago…

Yes... .it seems manipulative.  My question is... .What kind of treatment facility allows her to text her boyfriend?  Especially after being in fights and breaking all the rules during a recent home visit

Are there other treatment facility options available?

[raytamtay3]

Tomorrow is our family session.  DH is coming as back up/support for me, as I envision DD16 and EXH ganging up on me as is evident by the recent calls with both.

I have the sense that EXH is going to say he will take her.  And I am thinking of giving him full custody to do so, against my better judgement.  He relinquished 50% of custody to me 3 years ago as he could not handle her and thought where I lived would be better for her. As we know, it made no difference.

I know that it isn’t a good idea for her to live with him, but at the same time, I know she cannot come back to my house and in my opinion, should remain in an RTC or go to a group home. But I’m also to the point where I think it’s time he should be reminded of the hell it is living with DD so that he stops making me feel like a horrible mother for sending her away.  Thoughts?

Make the best choice for your daughter.  Set aside what you would like your ex to realize.  You know your truth and don't need him to validate the hell you have been through (it would be nice and won't help your daughter... .it can be harmful to her).

She had her bf text me yesterday (I’m guessing) saying what a wonderful conversation they had.  How they talked about going to school together, football games, joining soccer together and college dreams. I did not respond.  I know it was probably a means to see what my plans were as I basically have only told DD that I don’t feel she’s ready to come home yet.  Which resulted in her throwing a fit and my having to end the call.  That was a week ago…

Yes... .it seems manipulative.  My question is... .What kind of treatment facility allows her to text her boyfriend?  Especially after being in fights and breaking all the rules during a recent home visit

Are there other treatment facility options available?

It was a phone call with her bestfriend just to clarify. She is on the call list as she is the only friend I feel is a good influence.

[raytamtay3]

That's one of the things I would like to explore.  Other RTCs or group homes.  However, I truly do feel that DD would run away from a group home as it isn't secure.

[lbjnltx]

That's one of the things I would like to explore.  Other RTCs or group homes.  However, I truly do feel that DD would run away from a group home as it isn't secure.

Yeah... .she isn't ready for that kind of freedom.  She showed what she would do with it in her home visit. 

[raytamtay3]

Well, i caved. Decided to give DD another chance by having her come home and do intensive outpatient care where a bus will pick her up and take her to a facility to work on drug amd alchol and emotiona issues after school. Then we woll transition into in home services again.  DH is pissed and hasnt spoken to me in days. Feels we shoud have tried group home for at least six months to c how she did first. Its been over two years since shes been home. I cant do it. Hopefully witj the structure of going to school, things will improve. We shall see. Not sure if DH will stick around this time, The game plan is if things go south again, she understands she will go back. We will be drawing up a contract.

[raytamtay3]

I have a meeting set up with DD's IEP team this week.  They are suggesting she begin in a smaller class with a shortened day to help her transition back in to school.  I am still waiting on her CMO to get back to me to see, like I said earlier, if things don't go well at home again, if more intensive treatment will be easily assessed again.  I am nervous. Very very nervous. But hopeful.

[raytamtay3]

I feel like I am the "crazy" one here. And I'm sure others on here would agree with me.    But I was informed that there aren't any intensive outpatient programs in my area so have decided, with a very heavy heart, to have DD transition to a group home first before coming home.  I just spoke to her case manager about this who said he didn't think she was ready to come home yet nor did his supervisor.  Pretty much everyone around me has said this, but I wanted to believe that she would do what she said and go to school and get  a job. But she needs to prove this by going to a group home first which will afford her this opportunity. I did tell DD that if everything worked out with respect to the intensive outpatient, then we would do that. So technically it didn't so at least I don't look like a complete a$$ for now going back to her and her therapist and saying group home it is right? It's just so very hard because DD was so excited about starting school in our town, etc. Now to have to tell her sorry, that's not happening is killing me all over again. But I do know in my heart of hearts this is the best option right now. She needs to prove she can come home. :'(  And, her sweet 16 is this Monday.   :'( :'(

[Rapt Reader]

I can see how you would maybe feel like you are letting your daughter down, raytamtay3, after telling her she could come home... .But your offer was based on the condition that she would be attending a strictly-enforced Out-Patient program, and since that is not available, you can hold your head up high when you tell her.

Use S.E.T. when you tell her:

Support: "I know how much you wanted to come home and start school with your friends, and how happy that made you... ."

Empathy: "I wanted to see you flourish in such an environment, and was very amendable to affording you this opportunity to do well... ."

Truth: "To accomplish those ends, you would need to go to an Out-Patient program to support you in that endeavor, and I've found out that such a program just isn't available in our area... .I'm really sorry for this circumstance; there's nothing I can do about it, though... ."

It's not your fault, raytamtay3, and you aren't the reason for her being disappointed, or even unmanageably enraged by this development. You can hold your head up high, hug her and commiserate with her, but be firm that she has to go to a Group Home for the next step in her rehabilitation. You can even cry with her if you'd like to, but be firm and blameless in this situation. Loving, but firm, in the knowledge that you did all you could to try to give her what she wanted, within the limits recommended to you by professionals.

Does this new development make things easier with your Husband now?

This may be the way the Universe is setting your daughter up for success and recovery, and the way to help you in your familial relationships... .Good luck 

[raytamtay3]

Thank you Rapt.  Your words mean so much to me at this very difficult time.

My DH and I spoke the other day (after he gave me the silent treatment to process the fact I kind of betrayed him when we both agreed she wasn't ready to come home and even had him come with me to the RTC only to change my mind when face to face with DD in her hysteria), and he said he didn’t agree with my decision for her to come home, but that he wasn’t going anywhere.

 

In her mind she feels she messed up once out of the 8 months she’s been there when in reality, she’s only been on home passes since July. And since that time she ended up in three extremely dangerous and drug filled cities, ended up in the hospital for ingesting K2, which she denies even though she had vomited all over herself (“it was because I saw others throwing up which made me throw up”) and came home at 5:00 am three days in a row.  But there is no talking to her about this stuff. She always comes back to it wasn’t that big of a deal or that even her therapist said she’s gonna mess up and that the therapist says it's not her she needs to convince she's ready to come home, that it's me.  I tell her but the severity of the “mess ups” are terrifying.

Thank you again RR. Lord knows I need to hear that I’m doing the right thing from everyone in my life right now. So far not one person has said she should come home.