Stalking but ignoring..thoughts please?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

JRT wrote--

every manner of activity in between such as her son and his girlfriend accosting me at a local mall or one of her girlfriends tirades when she contacted me via IM! She contacted me daughter on social media, her son ranted to my cousin about me without solicitation, her GF's have contacted me on dating sites, the various silent calls that I was receiving daily for several months... .etc, etc,

----- It sounds like a combination of things:

===Triangulating  (she is bringing in her relatives and trying to involve you, she is contacting a friend of yours who wasn't even friends with her,  she is contacting your daughter... .

=====What was going on with her friends contacting you on dating sites?  She must have looked u up on them or she wouldn't have found you there. Were they trying to approach you? Do you think it was a test to see if you'd take the bait and date them?

=====It sounds also like projection (she is lookiing you up all over the place and connecting with your friend, but accusing you of stalking)... .and also

projective identification (she projects out the "blame" for stalking, hoping you'll  "take on"  the feeling that she apparently may have... .instead of her feeling "Oh wow, I'm stalking and trying to connect" she hopes you'll feel "Oh wow, I'm stalking and trying to connect"  (even though you're really not)

[shatra]

JRT wrote--

every manner of activity in between such as her son and his girlfriend accosting me at a local mall or one of her girlfriends tirades when she contacted me via IM! She contacted me daughter on social media, her son ranted to my cousin about me without solicitation, her GF's have contacted me on dating sites, the various silent calls that I was receiving daily for several months... .etc, etc,

----- It sounds like a combination of things:

===Triangulating  (she is bringing in her relatives and trying to involve you, she is contacting a friend of yours who wasn't even friends with her,  she is contacting your daughter... .

=====What was going on with her friends contacting you on dating sites?  She must have looked u up on them or she wouldn't have found you there. Were they trying to approach you? Do you think it was a test to see if you'd take the bait and date them?

=====It sounds also like projection (she is lookiing you up all over the place and connecting with your friend, but accusing you of stalking)... .and also

projective identification (she projects out the "blame" for stalking, hoping you'll  "take on"  the feeling that she apparently may have... .instead of her feeling "Oh wow, I'm stalking and trying to connect" she hopes you'll feel "Oh wow, I'm stalking and trying to connect"  (even though you're really not)

[JRT]

----- It sounds like a combination of things:

===Triangulating  (she is bringing in her relatives and trying to involve you, she is contacting a friend of yours who wasn't even friends with her,  she is contacting your daughter... .

Very much so!

=====What was going on with her friends contacting you on dating sites? It didn't go to any extreme other than looking me up. The site I use tells you who visited your profile and its not a secret at all. In fact its something that is built in and prominent.   She must have looked u up on them or she wouldn't have found you there. I am thinking the same thing. Were they trying to approach you? no but I also suspect that there were same fake profile created to return to check me out again like the one with the handle 'JRT 1234" with no information populated into the profile.  Do you think it was a test to see if you'd take the bait and date them? I don't feel that this is the case especially since I am painted black to them as well. I think that it was just run of the mill stalking.

=====It sounds also like projection (she is lookiing you up all over the place and connecting with your friend, but accusing you of stalking).YES!... .and also

projective identification (she projects out the "blame" for stalking, hoping you'll  "take on"  the feeling that she apparently may have... .instead of her feeling "Oh wow, I'm stalking and trying to connect" she hopes you'll feel "Oh wow, I'm stalking and trying to connect"  (even though you're really not)[/quote]
I have not heard of projective identification... .thats interesting... .is it just a sub behavior (so to speak) of projection in general? Any links you might be able to suggest so that I can learn more about it?

[GreenEyedMonster]

My ex definitely has it set up so that he has control over whether I see or contact him.  I am not sure what would happen if I tried, because I haven't.

However, mutual friends tell me that he is still single.  There is no replacement.  And he stalks me every few days on social media.

I wonder if he really intended to break up with me at all, or just to keep me at arm's length for a while.  I guess time will tell.

It's hard to know if he's just ashamed to talk to me again, or really wants me gone.

[shatra]

Here is a link for a discussion of projection (I'm not angry, you are angry) and projective identification (I'm not angry, you are angry ---- and you actually begin to feel the anger I am projecting onto you)

www.dailykos.com/story/2013/05/13/1187645/-Psychology-Of-Hatred-Part-II-Projection-Projective-Identification#

[JRT]

My ex definitely has it set up so that he has control over whether I see or contact him.  I am not sure what would happen if I tried, because I haven't.

However, mutual friends tell me that he is still single.  There is no replacement.  And he stalks me every few days on social media.

I wonder if he really intended to break up with me at all, or just to keep me at arm's length for a while.  I guess time will tell.

It's hard to know if he's just ashamed to talk to me again, or really wants me gone.

Interesting... .I have these same questions where I am pretty sure that mine is also single, after a year! But even now, I wonder if she had intended something entirely different to transpire. Maybe it's good to know that someone out there can relate.

[GreenEyedMonster]

My ex seemed to have an incredibly naive view about how breakups have a ripple effect through a group of friends, seeing as his only other serious relationship was a LDR with a married (separated) woman in another state.

A couple hours after breaking up with me, he signed up to go to a dinner party with a group of mutual friends -- and me! -- that was to occur two weeks after the breakup.  I guess he thought we would all show up and chat like nothing happened?

He also said his final "Goodbye" to me in the message, but then mentioned that he might see me when we go out with friends.  Talk about a mixed message!  I think he was a very confused person.

He was so focused on his own anxiety and eliminating it in that moment, he completely didn't understand what breaking up really meant.  After his last breakup, his friends all went out and celebrated together.  After this one, he figured out the hard way that he may have lost a lot of friends.   

So I do wonder if this outcome was intended.  I tend to think not.  I'm sure he uses it all to paint me really black, but he's getting really isolated.  I have spent the past couple days talking to mutual friends who can still talk to him and make sure he's okay.

[JRT]

Here is a link for a discussion of projection (I'm not angry, you are angry) and projective identification (I'm not angry, you are angry ---- and you actually begin to feel the anger I am projecting onto you)

www.dailykos.com/story/2013/05/13/1187645/-Psychology-Of-Hatred-Part-II-Projection-Projective-Identification#

Thanks for this link Shatra... .I got goosebumps at the quote 'You think... .'... .upon post recycle conversations, it was the lead off statement (ALWAYS way off base) that established her rationale for running.

I have been so mindful of her boundaries and paranoid of drawing the wrath of the law over the course of this episode, that not only did I really realize that she has ZERO legal power over me towards a PPO or otherwise but that I didn't come to realize that she had become a stalker (a very crafty and stealthy one) while my mind was focused elsewhere.

Its coming upon the 12 month anniversary of the breakup... .I wonder what the next couple of weeks will bring... .

[JRT]

My ex seemed to have an incredibly naive view about how breakups have a ripple effect through a group of friends, seeing as his only other serious relationship was a LDR with a married (separated) woman in another state.

A couple hours after breaking up with me, he signed up to go to a dinner party with a group of mutual friends -- and me! -- that was to occur two weeks after the breakup.  I guess he thought we would all show up and chat like nothing happened?

He also said his final "Goodbye" to me in the message, but then mentioned that he might see me when we go out with friends.  Talk about a mixed message!  I think he was a very confused person.

He was so focused on his own anxiety and eliminating it in that moment, he completely didn't understand what breaking up really meant.  After his last breakup, his friends all went out and celebrated together.  After this one, he figured out the hard way that he may have lost a lot of friends.   

So I do wonder if this outcome was intended.  I tend to think not.  I'm sure he uses it all to paint me really black, but he's getting really isolated.  I have spent the past couple days talking to mutual friends who can still talk to him and make sure he's okay.

Another observation that resonated with me as well; they just don't seem to know the full extent of what a breakup really means.

We had recycled at one point for 2 or 3 weeks. I tried hard to get her to answer her phone and talk but she would not reply. It was early in our relationship and I just figured it was dead and moved on. At that point there was little emotional investment that prevented me form dating quickly so I reactivated my online dating sire profile (where I had met her) and started socializing.

Of course, we got back together again where she had stalked me there and was LIVID, absolutely steamed that I went back to dating. I pointed out that we had broken up and she gave me a very confused look and said nothing more. But it was clear that dating was NOT ok on some level and pointed to her not knowing exactly what a breakup normally entailed.

To this day, I wonder if it was not intended to be a permanent thing... .

[ShadowIntheNight]

Here is a link for a discussion of projection (I'm not angry, you are angry) and projective identification (I'm not angry, you are angry ---- and you actually begin to feel the anger I am projecting onto you)

www.dailykos.com/story/2013/05/13/1187645/-Psychology-Of-Hatred-Part-II-Projection-Projective-Identification#

A quote from this article:

"

Healthy anger comes and goes quickly, but many people are enraged more or less all the time.  It's a hell of drug, but they need to get their fix several times a day. As I said above, they need three forms of anger in a more or less continuous rotation:

1)  They need to be angry at someone

2) They need someone to be angry at them

3) They need an audience of people to be angry with them.  

Not everyone will be their codependent soul-mate, but they can manipulate family members, coworkers, and even complete strangers into playing these roles by using  projective identification."

My first thought was "Holy smokes! This is my uBPDexgf to a tee! And the most astonishing is #2 They need someone to be angry at them.

I am pretty sure now, just based on the info here that her actions in ending our relationship weren't only related to her being a gutless coward, but also in managing to create a situation between us where I, if I were any kind of a thinking human, would be angry at her! And amazingly, the article even answers that they do this even unbeknownst to themselves, I.e. They're in DENIAL of what their actions are creating for them!

This does put a new perspective on my relationship with my ex.

OP, so sorry to have strayed so far off course, and you are the one who is most important. But maybe have a read of this article. It might offer you some insight as well, particularly if your partner has an anger issue. Mine does. I know it hasn't miraculously disappeared because we aren't together. She was a hothead the day I met her and blamed it on being Hispanic. Right... .

[GreenEyedMonster]

My ex seemed to have an incredibly naive view about how breakups have a ripple effect through a group of friends, seeing as his only other serious relationship was a LDR with a married (separated) woman in another state.

A couple hours after breaking up with me, he signed up to go to a dinner party with a group of mutual friends -- and me! -- that was to occur two weeks after the breakup.  I guess he thought we would all show up and chat like nothing happened?

He also said his final "Goodbye" to me in the message, but then mentioned that he might see me when we go out with friends.  Talk about a mixed message!  I think he was a very confused person.

He was so focused on his own anxiety and eliminating it in that moment, he completely didn't understand what breaking up really meant.  After his last breakup, his friends all went out and celebrated together.  After this one, he figured out the hard way that he may have lost a lot of friends.  

So I do wonder if this outcome was intended.  I tend to think not.  I'm sure he uses it all to paint me really black, but he's getting really isolated.  I have spent the past couple days talking to mutual friends who can still talk to him and make sure he's okay.

Of course, we got back together again where she had stalked me there and was LIVID, absolutely steamed that I went back to dating. I pointed out that we had broken up and she gave me a very confused look and said nothing more. But it was clear that dating was NOT ok on some level and pointed to her not knowing exactly what a breakup normally entailed.

To this day, I wonder if it was not intended to be a permanent thing... .

I posted online -- in a place my ex can see it -- that I'm going to a speed dating event this week.  I wondered if he would react to that in any way.  I wonder if that made him mad at me.  I still don't think that he meant it to be permanent.

Since our breakup was based on engulfment fears, I'm making a point of very visibly moving on so that he doesn't think I'm desperate/stalking/etc.  That's what he asked me to do, and I listened.

Around the time I did it, he had all but disappeared from the only social media site that is the last one where I can see him.  The day after I posted the online dating thing, he reappeared.  Hmmm.

I also oddly wonder if he's hoping I'll look him up to talk.

Don't forget the emotional amnesia thing, too -- once a pwBPD wants you back, they forget what it felt like not to want you.  So in their minds, that gap in the relationship almost doesn't exist.

[Lou12]

Hey GEM just a thought but would you consider sending your BPD a little message just asking how he is? Kind of an olive branch thing. The reason a I ask is because their is a very good chance your BPD will talk to you based on my previous experiences. I did have to do a lot of the running with my BPD because he doesn't have the ability to. Once he gave me silent treatment for 2 months when I should of had an apology. It wasn't until I reached out that we discussed it.

This time however I am not due to the pattern of the relationship, it needs to change.

Just a thought

X

[JRT]

Since our breakup was based on engulfment fears,

I suspect that mine had something to do with engulfment as well... .I wonder if you can expound on this at all as it relates to your R/s and b/u? Don't want to hijack the thread, PM is ok if needed.



Don't forget the emotional amnesia thing, too -- once a pwBPD wants you back, they forget what it felt like not to want you.  So in their minds, that gap in the relationship almost doesn't exist.

I am hearing about this for the first time as well. Have you come across this on other threads? [/quote]

[GreenEyedMonster]

My ex is hanging out with some friends downtown in a couple days and I am technically invited.  I could go and see what happens, but I doubt it would be good.  He did tell me explicitly never to contact him again.

My ex broke up with me because I was clingy and guilt tripped him for how he was treating me.  That is why it's an engulfment breakup.

[JRT]

My ex is hanging out with some friends downtown in a couple days and I am technically invited.  I could go and see what happens, but I doubt it would be good.  He did tell me explicitly never to contact him again.

My ex broke up with me because I was clingy and guilt tripped him for how he was treating me.  That is why it's an engulfment breakup.

Maybe I am the wrong influence but if you have an interest in the social function, why not go? I wonder if your unwillingness to bend over backwards to respect his boundaries would feel empowering? I mean, its YOUR world too! I think that doing so would make me feel much more in control of my life and environment.

Were you really clingy and guilt tripped him or was that his take on things?

[Lou12]

GEM would you not have the perfect excuse to text to clear the air before you see each other? Yep mine told me he never wants to speak to me again and other obsenities but I know he didn't mean it.

You describe your BPD exactly like mine and up to now he's never had the ability to reach out and that's even after something particularly bad happened which I won't go into.

Of course if this is totally against what your boundaries then pls ignore me but 18 months in and being stubborn got me nowhere. Neither did being emotional or asking any demands.

I'm still trying to figure this one out but I honestly don't expect any direct contact. Infact the best direct contact I got was through my friend who he pretended to text by accident and that was when he was really desperate.

I wouldn't expect to much from him... x

[GreenEyedMonster]

I got clingy and guilt tripped him after he went on a vacation without me with a bunch of other women, neglected to call me when promised, and responded to my concerns with the silent treatment.  He drew first blood.  Up until that I was not clingy AT ALL.

I am not sure I am comfortable showing up where he is.  If I do that, he might simply respond by disappearing altogether so that I never know where he is, and then it's all done.  It's weird, though, because on some level, I feel like he reads it as rejection that I *don't* show up where he is.  He has really bad social anxiety and NEVER makes the first move on anything -- not with women, not even with things we had done before when we were dating.  So maybe I will have to make a first move to get him back.  I'm just not sure it's the right time yet. 

I'm also just emotionally crushed today.  I am having a hard time staying caught up at work because I'm depressed.  Not good.

I saw a pic of my ex on Facebook from two days ago.  I don't know if it was my imagination, but he looked a little gaunt and older.

Lou12, did your ex block you on social media too?  I'm blocked on everything.

[Lou12]

Yes blocked me on all social media after an awful event that he could not handle emotionally. The thing is GEM I know my BPD is obsessed with me, he also holds a lot of anger towards me and I think that's because he wants me so bad but can not bare the vulnerability it leaves him in, he feels way to unsafe dealing with these emotions.

I know he convinces himself though that he's better off without me. He blames me for his emotions but I do take partial responsibility because I was very emotional and made him feel more unsafe.

My BPD is yet to feel fully abandoned because I know he convinces himself he can have me at any time. This is due to the fact that I was very straight with how I felt about him. Obviously I didn't realise at the time how much engulfment was a bigger problem so I am planning to see how he responds now I have cut all contact.

I'm very intuitive about his moods and right now I know he is giving me signals to contact him but that's more to see if I am still available as oppose to him feeling abandoned so I'm ignoring it all. I need more results this time.

It's very hard though as during the idealisation phase they lead you into a false sense of security but when they split you they can act like they don't even know you.

I've told you this before but it quite extraordinary how alike our BPDs are, all you write could be wrote about mine.

Mine so far has never chased me, but the shear joy in his voice when I contacted him let me know he was sat waiting. Maybe it's compensatory narcissism, maybe fear of rejection, maybe it's a personal deal he made with himself but I have yet to see him chase.

I do imagine him sitting their suffering because he's an loner introvert anyway. He has friends but prefers his own company. I do believe he has different girls contacting him but I know he's constantly seeking perfection and won't settle.  I maintain to this day that until he finds someone who he deems better than me then he's going nowhere. When/if he does I'll be dropped on my head without a second glance.

Like you I wasn't clingy at all, until an event happened where it called for emotion and he couldn't handle it. Cut me off completely.

If your suffering that bad then contact him but only if you can handle the rejection. If the rejection would make you feel worse then don't chance if. I never had any of the reasons to contact my BPD as we have no mutual friends and live a distance apart but you have every excuse to say. 'Hey left clear the air, before we meet In front of everyone' x

[Lou12]

Oh and he wouldn't unblock me either until I asked. Then he'd pretend he'd totally forgot he done that to me! Yeh right he knows exactly what he's doing with every bit of social media it's all planned!

[Lou12]

I genuinely actually believes that he sits there plotting what he will do to me next. I get a lot of punishment and that I could never understand but know I realise it's because of the pain he's in.

[GreenEyedMonster]

They do sound eerily similar.

Mine has a pretty well-established 3-5 month cycle.  He can sustain an emotion for about that long and then it shifts.  I am 6 weeks out of the breakup.  So I suspect he's not at a point yet where he'd be receptive to seeing me.  Ideally, I'd like him to be pretty desperate when I contact him, however awful that sounds.  When his mother was alive, he once stayed away from her for four months straight, even though he didn't live far away.  That seems to be about how much time he needs to recover from engulfment, and then he gets lonely and wants to be loved again.

He checks up on where I'll be pretty often according to social media, but like you, I think that's more to see if I'm available yet than to actually get back with me.  He seemed to panic once when I disappeared for a while and go into stalker mode, but that seems to have passed now.

He is a perfectionist when it comes to partners, too, and is really picky about who he dates.  I doubt he will ever find someone better than me, especially with his appearance/job/money/age issues.  Even if he does, he is really lacking in the crucial social skills of dating, and rarely makes it past 2-3 weeks dating someone. 

[Lou12]

In all honesty I've never let it get that far because I've always reached out to him but not this time, I plan to hold out for a long time. Possibly by then I will be less interested in seeking him out.

Mine definitely believes I am out of his league but he does everything in his power to make himself believe he's the one that doesn't want me. When im split he thinks of me as crazy, a stalker, untrustworthy, feisty/aggressive, controlling, trying to trap him by pregnancy and last time we spoke he even said that I would probably murder him (praying that's not projection) but these are all the things he thinks I am to protect himself from dealing with how he really feels.

It's so so sad especially when two people actually want each other but hey ho I've been down this route before of feeling frustrated about BPD and I'm hopefully over it. I accept his condition now and know I am not able to change it

X

[GreenEyedMonster]

Mine definitely believes I am out of his league but he does everything in his power to make himself believe he's the one that doesn't want me. When im split he thinks of me as crazy, a stalker, untrustworthy, feisty/aggressive, controlling, trying to trap him by pregnancy and last time we spoke he even said that I would probably murder him (praying that's not projection) but these are all the things he thinks I am to protect himself from dealing with how he really feels.

With the exception of the pregnancy and murder bits, this sounds exactly like my situation.   Though he did say his ex was going to murder him, so who knows.  You sure this isn't the same guy? 

My ex is not exactly what you call a "catch" and a woman needs to show really overt interest in him for him to reciprocate.  I invited myself on my first date with him, and only after that did he *tentatively* ask me out on a second date, but he even masked that by asking another friend of mine along too.  Basically a woman needs to throw herself at him or he's not confident enough to pursue her.  To be blunt, he is a 40-year-old man with financial problems, an unusual/rough appearance, no job, and he's also basically a hoarder.  So how many women will throw themselves at him?  I'm not worried about him finding a replacement.  (Why do I want him?  His intellect is what attracted me.  We have great chemistry and can talk for hours.)

The problem with my ex, though, is that he absolutely thrives off the drama of a breakup.  He loves the task of outsmarting the woman, making sure she can't find him, blocking her, and generally playing a giant mind game.  This gets him almost as "high" as the relationship did.  I need to wait for the fun to wear off outsmarting me, because if I don't, everything that I do as far as contact will feed the perceived conflict and he will see it as a challenge.  I am convinced that this is one of the main reasons he enjoys watching me online -- it feeds his need to outsmart and outrun me.  With his last girlfriend, as soon as she was good and gone and the mind game lost its fun, he started to miss her like crazy.  But she was *gone.*  I am assuming the same thing will happen here, in a few weeks, when the fun wears off.

You may have heard of very high dopamine people pursuing goals that they don't even want to achieve because their brain chemistry is like a runaway train.  They do things to prove they can, and shortly thereafter, they lose interest.  In this case, I think that my ex needs to "prove" that I can't and won't control him.  Once he is satisfied that he has proven that, he will realize it's not what he really wanted.

[HappyNihilist]

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