Extinction burst?

[Ceruleanblue]

I'm wondering if what happened last night might be an extinction burst?  I'm not sure I really understand exactly what that is. I've recently started calling BPDh on his divorce threats. At first, he didn't know how to deal with it, he was shocked that I agreed, and no longer seem scared. He started saying he'd work harder on the marriage, and on his DBT.

Well, last night things got ugly, and I now have a bruised/scraped up hand. Immediately after he got physical, he yells at me that HE wants a divorce, I need to move out tomorrow, and he's done. HE attacks me, he's mad, yet he's the victim. Same old story. Well, instead of crying and being scared I told him that healthy people don't hurt others, and that even though I always forgive him, he needs to accept responsibility, and that I don't want to continue to be abused. I told him that I excuse it to some degree DUE TO his mental issue, and knowing he's in DBT, and working on self control. He HATES mention of having a mental health issue, but I'm not going to keep denying it, and saying his rages and attacks are normal. THEY ARE NOT, and it just allows him to normalize it in his mind, and blame me.

Well, I called his bluff again, and said I'll give him a divorce if he wants, but that he could be thankful that I've radically accepted him(he's started using that term since being in DBT), and that healthy people work on themselves and their marriages! Like last time, he backed down, and changed his mind.

So, is this most recent threat an extinction burst? Is he just seeing if I'll still react the way I used to to threats of divorce? I'd thought maybe he'd stop doing it since he saw it no longer worked. Is he likely to always do this, or is he just testing(is this what an extinction burst is?), to see if I'm sticking with my new feelings and attitude?

I'm really baffled, and am hoping that he'll catch on that I'm no longer rising to that bait.

[Notwendy]

Well, last night things got ugly, and I now have a bruised/scraped up hand.


What exactly happened here and how did you hurt your hand. More specifically- did he do it? If so, how?

While you seem to have been seeking to be accommodating and save your relationship, one boundary is your physical well being. I wonder how this is being addressed in your marriage.

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm wondering if what happened last night might be an extinction burst?  I'm not sure I really understand exactly what that is. I've recently started calling BPDh on his divorce threats. At first, he didn't know how to deal with it, he was shocked that I agreed, and no longer seem scared. He started saying he'd work harder on the marriage, and on his DBT.

This doesn't surprise me.  My wife did the same thing.  I told her, "That is not what I want, but she is free to go through with it if that is what SHE chooses.  I also said I wouldn't be a part of it.

Well, last night things got ugly, and I now have a bruised/scraped up hand. Immediately after he got physical, he yells at me that HE wants a divorce, I need to move out tomorrow, and he's done. HE attacks me, he's mad, yet he's the victim. Same old story. Well, instead of crying and being scared I told him that healthy people don't hurt others, and that even though I always forgive him, he needs to accept responsibility, and that I don't want to continue to be abused. I told him that I excuse it to some degree DUE TO his mental issue, and knowing he's in DBT, and working on self control. He HATES mention of having a mental health issue, but I'm not going to keep denying it, and saying his rages and attacks are normal. THEY ARE NOT, and it just allows him to normalize it in his mind, and blame me.

Yes, they hate when they are told they have mental issues.  I told my wife this the first few months of our separation and it made her worse.  It didn't help and realized I was compounding the issue.  How did he lose control?

The sounds to me like he is seeing if he can "bait" you into losing control and continue his victim status.  My wife did this a couple of times when I stopped "playing her game" several months back and losing control myself.  It was almost like she was testing me to see if the way I was "acting" was an act.  She realizes now it isn't.  I do think it is a form of an extinction burst because he is seeing if he can get you to revert to your old ways.  My wife hasn't dysregulated in several months and it started to get much better when I quit playing into her patterns.  That was about 5 months ago now.  Since then, she has had only one major dysregulation about 3 months ago.  Since then, things have been very calm, even in disagreements.  She has gotten upset that I have "stuck to my guns" on certain issues, but that subsides when she realizes I'm not backing down.  I look at where things are this year as compared to the same time last year.  This time last year, we were not seeing each other for weeks (sometimes 6) at a time and I was told to not come to the kids events.  Now, we spend a lot more time together and I am attending their events again.  It is almost a 180 from where we were a year ago (2 months into our separation).  We haven't told each other we love each other in several weeks and I'm comfortable not.  I don't want to be the one to always say it.  The other night we held hands, laid next to each other and talked about some very hard things in her family.  I validated and listened intently.  It isn't perfect, but SOO MUCH better than it used to be.  This is probably the hardest time when they start testing you... .You have to get through it.  Also, I think my wife filing was part of an extinction burst to get me to revert back to what she could control as she realized she was losing control.  I think what has calmed her is that she is seeing that she can lose "control" of situations, but not lose me... .Thoughts?

[Lou12]

Yes I think your new attitude is spot on and I also believe that if you keep having this attitude then you might just actually believe it yourself, that this abuse is not acceptable at all. X

[Ceruleanblue]

Lol., I'm not sure why this got moved to the "undecided board"? I'm definitely staying, and want this to work, I am just  making plans for years down the road for if I have to get out. Maybe I'm on the wrong board? I usually post on the staying board because I want to stay, and I'm still in it, and working on the marriage, but I'm recently making a fall back plan, just in case. Due mostly to his threats, and having left me once.

Anyway, either board is okay, and if they want to move my posts, I'm fine with that. I like both boards

The hurt hand came about because he wrestled something away from me. He's had a habit of doing that. One time it was a hammer I was using to hang a picture. He got mad that I was hanging it, and decided to take the hammer away by force. I got knocked to the ground, and ended up with a hurt hand that time too. Rages come over him, and watch out. I don't fear he'll ever hurt me badly, or I'd leave. It's never escalated beyond this point. Now, I know in lots of cases it CAN. I more than get that, but I trust my instincts, and I think he has too much fear of really getting in trouble, and he's way too narcissistic to want his image damaged. When he went to anger management, he was very scathing of the guys who were court ordered to go. He knows one call from me, and he could be that guy, and he does not want that.

I too realized last night that maybe BPDh is coming to see that he, like your wife, can lose control, but he doesn't lose me. I clearly think he is testing me to see if my new "go ahead and divorce me" is just an act, and it isn't. I really, really want to stay married, and for this to work out, but I've come to realize, I can't be the ONLY one with that attitude or the actions to make it happen.

Any thoughts on how best to continue? Just keep doing what I'm doing, even though he keeps testing me? I really can't even fake another attitude, because I have to be true to ME. This is how I feel. I want our marriage to work, and am currently working on it, and working on ME, but I'm done reacting to his threats in a scared, pleading manner. I now get very matter of fact, calm, and am more detached. It's more like detaching with love.

I guess I'm just checking in to see if that's a healthy way to deal with this... .

[MaroonLiquid]

I too realized last night that maybe BPDh is coming to see that he, like your wife, can lose control, but he doesn't lose me. I clearly think he is testing me to see if my new "go ahead and divorce me" is just an act, and it isn't. I really, really want to stay married, and for this to work out, but I've come to realize, I can't be the ONLY one with that attitude or the actions to make it happen.

Very true.  I think they always expect us to beg them to stay.  When we get to the point where we are at that we don't want it but OK either way, then you start to see positive change.  My wife has always thought I, like her ex who is a complete deadbeat and wouldn't work, couldn't live without her.  Her ex moved back in with his mom when they split up and is now $40,000 a year behind in child support.  I think she thought my life would implode without her also.  Now, she has seen me live on my own for over a year, don't need her to survive and never have, and continue to be there for her, it has let her view me in a new light.  I just talked to my wife and she told me where our daughter's softball game was.  I told her I would meet her there.  At the end of the conversation I could tell she wanted to say something (maybe an I love you) but stayed sort of silent.  After a few small seconds of silence I said, "I will see you tonight, have a great rest of your day."  She said, "Ok, you too."  One thing I am really working on is keeping the upper hand.  Not in a manipulative way, but ending all of our conversations and interactions on a good note and leave her "wanting more".

[TheRealJongoBong]

Hi CeruleanBlue,

Your experiences with your husband's possible extinction bursts are fairly close to mine.  As I started to set more boundaries and refused to buy into the stories it seemed she would try to "up the ante" in order to get the responses she was used to. I found it very similar to a child when they want something from their parents - first asking, then demanding, then having a small temper tantrum, then a large one... .

Just keep doing what you're doing. Don't buy into his escalation because he is just trying provoke a response. He'll probably keep trying until he starts to realize it's wasted effort, just like a child when you don't give in.

[EaglesJuju]

I'm wondering if what happened last night might be an extinction burst?  I'm not sure I really understand exactly what that is. I've recently started calling BPDh on his divorce threats. At first, he didn't know how to deal with it, he was shocked that I agreed, and no longer seem scared. He started saying he'd work harder on the marriage, and on his DBT.

An extinction burst happens when a behavior has been reinforced, and then the reinforcement has stopped.  The behavior will initially increase. This tends to happen when you first establish boundaries and reinforce them.  If someone does not stick to reinforcement and gives in, this is called intermittent reinforcement.

Well, last night things got ugly, and I now have a bruised/scraped up hand. Immediately after he got physical, he yells at me that HE wants a divorce, I need to move out tomorrow, and he's done. HE attacks me, he's mad, yet he's the victim. Same old story. Well, instead of crying and being scared I told him that healthy people don't hurt others, and that even though I always forgive him, he needs to accept responsibility, and that I don't want to continue to be abused. I told him that I excuse it to some degree DUE TO his mental issue, and knowing he's in DBT, and working on self control. He HATES mention of having a mental health issue, but I'm not going to keep denying it, and saying his rages and attacks are normal. THEY ARE NOT, and it just allows him to normalize it in his mind, and blame me.

If you are always excusing him for being violent and raging, in a sense you are reinforcing that it is okay to do these behaviors. In a sense, you are normalizing his behaviors based off of mental illness. Take out the mental illness out of this situation, would it still be all right for him to get physical with you?

Boundaries are important. Do you think establishing a boundary of not being physically attacked would be a good idea?

Your safety is of utmost importance. Do you feel safe or have a safety plan if this happens again? 

[GaGrl]

You seem to be minimizing the violence, i.e., he wrested something from you and you fell, etc.

In fact, he is putting his hands on you in anger, to the point you are hurt.

Do not minimize his behavior.

[Ceruleanblue]

I probably am excusing the abuse due to his mental disorder, when I wouldn't for anyone else(ie someone emotionally healthy). I absolutely don't think it's okay on any level, and I do need to set a boundary around it. I just hate to bring it up to him. Maybe it could be a boundary where I don't state the boundary? I just act after the boundary has been crossed?

I want less conflict, not more, and stating a boundary will surely set him off. I'm open to ideas. Keep in mind that I'm unable to talk to him, because nine times out of ten, he'll get angry if there is even a hint of relationship/marriage talk.

I don't want to be abused, obviously, but I do want my marriage to survive, and for him to keep doing his DBT. I'm actually working a lot on myself too, and just got back in therapy.

Anyway, I'm open to ideas.

[EaglesJuju]

I probably am excusing the abuse due to his mental disorder, when I wouldn't for anyone else(ie someone emotionally healthy). I absolutely don't think it's okay on any level, and I do need to set a boundary around it. I just hate to bring it up to him. Maybe it could be a boundary where I don't state the boundary? I just act after the boundary has been crossed?

If you do not state the boundary, how will he know that you do not accept abusive behavior?  Being proactive is better than being reactive in this instance.  Asserting your boundaries ahead of time prevents situations from escalating. Furthermore, if the situation escalates, it is best to remove yourself before things become too heated.

I want less conflict, not more, and stating a boundary will surely set him off. I'm open to ideas. Keep in mind that I'm unable to talk to him, because nine times out of ten, he'll get angry if there is even a hint of relationship/marriage talk.

This is something that you will have to decide what is better for you: short or long term. Short term, you say nothing he does not get angry at the current time. Do you think that this will thwart future rages?  Long term, you assert your boundaries using a communication technique such as SET, and he may be angry in the present time due to extinction burst or whatnot. Boundaries in the present time can prevent situations from happening in the future.

Improving your relationship comes from making changes. If you are constantly appeasing or walking on eggshells, how is anything going to improve? You are the one in the relationship that is mentally healthier and change is primarily reliant on you.