Just had initial consult w/ L

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Had it last night. I think this guy is good -- not his first rodeo with "challenging" parents. After DH clarified to him that DH didn't just want to go in to try to win everything, L said "I don't usually come on this strong, but you have much more power in this situation than you think." L also said that what DH was asking for was so overwhelmingly reasonable that in our county it was basically a lock.

Granted, nothing is a guarantee, but wow, that was a relief. I'm proud of DH too for taking this step. He's been (rightly) worried about what Mom will probably do after he sets boundaries & gets enforcement, but knowing that a big antidote to Mom's vitriol is the kids spending more time with him is helpful. Kind if like, ok, getting a detailed PP signed will set Mom off, but built into that PP is the extra time with DH that will hopefully help the kids cope.

So legally, according to this L, things look very positive. But the question still remains -- how do DH & I help the kids cope with the emotional storm that's coming from Mom (& Stepdad)? Do we start talking now, before DH tells mom about the PP that they're going to sign (either the easy way or the hard way)?

I know I've asked that question before... .But it's definitely looming larger this morning.

[kells76]

Had it last night. I think this guy is good -- not his first rodeo with "challenging" parents. After DH clarified to him that DH didn't just want to go in to try to win everything, L said "I don't usually come on this strong, but you have much more power in this situation than you think." L also said that what DH was asking for was so overwhelmingly reasonable that in our county it was basically a lock.

Granted, nothing is a guarantee, but wow, that was a relief. I'm proud of DH too for taking this step. He's been (rightly) worried about what Mom will probably do after he sets boundaries & gets enforcement, but knowing that a big antidote to Mom's vitriol is the kids spending more time with him is helpful. Kind if like, ok, getting a detailed PP signed will set Mom off, but built into that PP is the extra time with DH that will hopefully help the kids cope.

So legally, according to this L, things look very positive. But the question still remains -- how do DH & I help the kids cope with the emotional storm that's coming from Mom (& Stepdad)? Do we start talking now, before DH tells mom about the PP that they're going to sign (either the easy way or the hard way)?

I know I've asked that question before... .But it's definitely looming larger this morning.

[ForeverDad]

As many issues as there are with the disordered ex-spouses, a major issue with us is that were are too timid or too fair when heading to court.  DH should present himself as Empowered Dad, not Timid Dad with hat in hand and on bended knee asking for more crumbs.  His position should be that he is to have equal parenting, more or less but that she has repeatedly obstructed his parenting and therefore he has the moral obligation to step forward and advocate for his children.

As we've mentioned before, court often is reluctant to grant every item in a motion.  So he should ask for a little extra so the judge has something he can deny and yet DH will walk out still in a strong position.  At his next meeting with L he and you should throw out ideas so you develop a multi-pronged overall Strategy to get as much as possible and sooner rather than later.

Prediction:  A year from now - or sooner - DH will wonder why he didn't do this long ago.  So don't let him be too hard on himself, all of this was a process of him recovering from his relationship with her and when he reached the point in time to take action, he can feel good that he did step forward.  (And he will see that ex's obstructions with school, etc, actually turned out to be self-sabotaging for her.   She made him step forward, DH, the Shy Hero stepping up to save the day!)

[david]

Make sure you keep gathering evidence to support what you are seeking. Ask atty what kind of additional things would be helpful. You might have it and not know it until atty tells you.

Make sure all emails are written with the idea that a judge will be reading them in the future. It takes practice but it does get easier. Stay focused on the kids in the email and the single topic you are talking about. Let ex go all over the place. My ex will send an email that prints out to three pages. I reply with 3 to 5 sentences that are very specific to what ex is talking about in her email. Most of the extra is attacks towards me. I ignore them all. Let the judge see what you are dealing with.

When I started firm boundaries I was worried about the repercussions on our two boys. It did happen but not as bad as I expected. Building upon that gets better over time.

I agree with asking for more and settling for what you think is best. It makes my ex feel like she won. She has sent emails to me using what she "won" as her reason for the email. She likes to fight and win so this is her way of doing that. I don't respond to those emails unless there is something that needs to be addressed about our boys.

Most of my replies now are just about pick up or drop off times.

[kells76]

Thank you guys so, so much! And now for the questions, as usual 

David, what were you EXPECTING to happen from ex in response to your boundaries, and what ACTUALLY happened (in a nutshell)? Not that every pwBPD responds the same, but DH (& I) worry that she's really gonna turn the screws on the kids in terms of guilting them, the "Are you SURE you REALLY want to go with DH" questions, the vitriol that has a grain of truth that the kids overhear, that kind of subtle stuff. Was that your worry? And when you say that "building upon that gets better", could you please clarify that?

ForeverDad, DH wants to nail down a super basic PT schedule (EOW meaning 2 overnights, not 1   ), weeknight with kids, equal holiday split, actual vacation in summer, etc. If I'm hearing you right, you'd suggest he request more in the plan, so that when a judge goes to sign off on it, DH has space to "lose"?

Maybe that's a question in my mind because of our hope that Mom, when presented with the option of agreeing with the PP the "easy" way out of court or the "hard" way, would see some sense in signing what DH presents? But who knows -- might also send her over the edge.

I guess in my mind this still circles back to the impact on the kids... .DH is worried that the hard work he's put in to have a good relationship with SD9 especially will go back to 0 -- that Mom is with it enough to target him through SD9. Did either of you have that experience -- the kids' mom retaliating for boundaries through one kid in particular (that is to say, by sabotaging your relationship not just generally with all your kids, but through one especially)?

[david]

I currently have 50/50 during school. It's EOW, every Monday and every Thursday. That isn't the usual custody schedule around here but it worked best for the boys and school. Monday I am able to get the week on the right path. Thursday gives me time to make sure everything that needs to be done for the week is complete. This worked best when our boys were both in elementary school. One is still in elementary.

I wasn't sure what ex would do but from past experience she often tried to convince them I was trying to take them away from her, I was hurting them, I was trying to hurt her. When they were 9 and 5 it kinda of had an effect on them and they didn't trust me. As they got older they first tried questioning their mom and they felt the wrath. They slowly started questioning me. That evolved over a few years and we have a much better relationship now because of it.

What ex did mostly was to try to sabotage their school work which was the main reason I went to court. That I didn't expect but it made my case much stronger. There were times I honestly thought she wanted me to "win" in court and she could then be relieved to not have to raise kids. She could then blame the courts for everything. I think there is some part of her that realizes she has a problem but she is too afraid to be open about it and actually try to fix it. She never really checked their homework or what they were doing in school and let them pretty much do whatever they wanted when with her. That was difficult for me to overcome. At first I tried emailing her about school things but I soon realized she enjoyed the engagement and continued ignoring the kids. It seemed to me that my emailing her was what she was seeking and by ignoring the boys only gave her more engagement from me. I then stopped communicating things with her and decided that they would complete and do everything not done at her place when with me. I talked to the boys teachers, since they were still in elementary and they worked with me. There were some weekends that they finished up assignments that were due a week prior. Our oldest figured it out in 6th grade thankfully so middle school was not an issue. Our youngest is in 6th grade now and he still tries to get away with things but not that often.

My main issue with ex was school so I think that was the driving force with ex.

My ex stopped trying to guilt them years ago because it wasn't working for her. She used to tell them all the time how abusive I was but they never saw any of it. Eventually they started talking to me about it and I listened mostly. I didn't say much except when asked a question. I would usually point out what they told me their mom said about me and ask them if they ever saw that kind of behavior from me. Of course, they answered no.

One thing our youngest used to say when he was 5 or 6 was that I was evil. This went on for a few months and I had no clue on how to handle it. I was seeing a T at the time and she couldn't help either. Finally, one day, I was sitting in a chair and he said from the kitchen that I was evil. I stood up and acted like Frankenstein. I chased him around the house. He loved it and from that time onward he wanted the evil daddy monster to chase him. He never called me evil in any other way since.

Those kinds of situations really help our kids a lot. Turning the situation around by "agreeing" with them works best for me. They see the absurdity in a non confrontational manner.

I think they learned to let ex say whatever she wanted and say little to challenge her perceptions. That helped them avoid her anger. From what I can gather they have very little conversation with her when they are with her now. I get that from our conversations and what they say about things at their moms. I don't ask many questions except maybe to clarify something they say.

I was locked up for two weeks from a false allegation. Our court order back then and now is that when I pick up the boys at her residence she is to stay in her place until I drive away. That goes for me too. The first time I went to pick the boys up after getting out of jail she came out of her residence and started to walk directly towards my vehicle. I turned my video camera on (the one I bought after getting out of jail) and pointed it at ex so she could see what I was doing. She made a u turn and went back into her place. She tried the same thing the next time. She then sent an email to me and cc'd it to her atty complaining that I was recording her and that is not allowed in our state. My atty talked to me about it. I now point the camera at myself since there is no law against recording myself. This way she can't say I am recording her and it is also proof of everything I did at that particular time. My camera and my audio recorder are time stamped and I put them all on my computer when I get home. MY atty liked that idea and said to continue doing that to protect myself.

My ex tries to use our youngest now. He is 12. Our oldest is 17 and she has no "power" over him for alienation tactics anymore. Ex will try to have S12 say he wants to stay with her on my custodial time. This happens on the phone. I simply tell him that I follow the court order and that I like seeing him whenever I can. He doesn't make an issue about it but I think he needs to have his mom hear that he tried.

Building upon a boundary. I have few boundaries with ex but when I make one I stick to it. I only communicate through email. If ex calls I let it go to voicemail. Ex countered by calling me from various phone numbers. I stopped answering my phone from numbers not in my phone book. Ex continued calling. I actually have 5 numbers that she called from and left a voicemail. Not a single voicemail needed a reply from me. She has complained in court, through her atty, court ordered co parent counseling meetings, and a custody eval about me refusing to talk to her on the phone. I simply state that email removes any misconceptions about what each of us said and leave it at that. I have been following that since 2010 and I can honestly say that there was never a circumstance where that did not work. The only exception I have is for emergencies and I would call and leave a voicemail. I have never had to do that yet.

[ForeverDad]

ForeverDad, DH wants to nail down a super basic PT schedule (EOW meaning 2 overnights, not 1   ), weeknight with kids, equal holiday split, actual vacation in summer, etc. If I'm hearing you right, you'd suggest he request more in the plan, so that when a judge goes to sign off on it, DH has space to "lose"?

I had a lot of trouble with exchanges, ex was very confrontational.  So I was very fortunate to have my son from Friday after school to Monday morning before school, 3 overnights and about 66 hours.  If there was no school my weekend went from Friday 6 pm to Monday 6 pm, 3 overnights, 72 hours.

Later, when she shifted to a 2-2-5-5 schedule, that fit into the schedule perfectly, my ex got Mon 6 pm to Wed 6 pm.  I got the second half of the week from then to Fri 6 pm, good for me since I could make sure his school assignments got in for the week.  Then we alternated the 72 hours weekends.

I acknowledge that for many parents the alternate weekend schedules are shorter.  The typical reason given is so that the child can settle back in to school for the next week.  That doesn't have to apply in DH's case.

I guess in my mind this still circles back to the impact on the kids... .DH is worried that the hard work he's put in to have a good relationship with SD9 especially will go back to 0 -- that Mom is with it enough to target him through SD9.

My son was manipulated.  He was 9 when I was seeking custody due to the continuing manipulations, obstructions and confrontations.  He was always daddy's boy.  But she convinced him that "50% time" was fair, her words in his mouth.  And when I got custody the GAL recommended parenting time stay equal, in her words, so that mother could get child support and behave better.  Predictably she didn't behave better and a year later we were back in court again, but it did delay me getting majority time for nearly another 3 years.

The problem is that son was pressured and manipulated no matter what I did or didn't do.  But me being assertive rather than acquiescing meant that despite the distortions and manipulations of my son, my parenting became more secure.

Is working in the background rather than taking the bull by the horns better?  For some low-level situations that might be good.  But most of our cases that make it to the Family Law board need us to "take the bull by the horns", at least for the important issues.  With insight, strategy - and with confidence that it is the right thing to do - we can have success, probably more than we dare hope.  It is somewhat rare for a case to get worse, it happens, but not that often.  I'm sure DH will do better than he dares to hope.

[livednlearned]

the question still remains -- how do DH & I help the kids cope with the emotional storm that's coming from Mom (& Stepdad)? Do we start talking now, before DH tells mom about the PP that they're going to sign (either the easy way or the hard way)?

I know I've asked that question before... .But it's definitely looming larger this morning.

kells76, I'm glad you had a good conversation. I had a lawyer who I grew to deeply respect and admire. There are good lawyers out there, and it sounds like yours might be a keeper.  

Read everything you can about parental alienation. Read every single book, all of Childress's work, and everything you can find about validation. Treat it like it's equally if not more important than the legal strategy. Because bio mom is not going to be able to process the difficult emotions -- characterologically (according to Childress), she has to project those feelings out onto the kids so she can experience them safely. The more dysregulated she gets, the more she will escalate the alienation. Their feelings are extensions of her own emotional state, and she will not tolerate seeing the girls experience feelings that don't reflect her own distorted inner life.

The girls are going to have a hard time figuring out who they can trust. Your job is to help them learn to trust themselves. Their mom is going to poison their minds and they're going to be in terrible distress, wondering what is and what isn't the truth. It's tempting to tell them that they can trust you -- that's a totally natural reaction when we feel challenged. It doesn't work with parental alienation, though.

In situations like the one you are about to experience, it's so important to remember that the battle is happening inside the hearts and minds of the girls. It's not your battle. You have to teach them how to make sense of reality, and to validate how they feel. Their mom will force them into the middle of a battle, and you can't ignore that triangle. You have to ask the girls (with validation and other anti-PA techniques) what it's like to be in the middle so that they can develop the skills to help themselves out of that role.

[ForeverDad]

The girls are going to have a hard time figuring out who they can trust. Your job is to help them learn to trust themselves. Their mom is going to poison their minds and they're going to be in terrible distress, wondering what is and what isn't the truth. It's tempting to tell them that they can trust you -- that's a totally natural reaction when we feel challenged. It doesn't work with parental alienation, though.

In situations like the one you are about to experience, it's so important to remember that the battle is happening inside the hearts and minds of the girls. It's not your battle. You have to teach them how to make sense of reality, and to validate how they feel. Their mom will force them into the middle of a battle, and you can't ignore that triangle. You have to ask the girls (with validation and other anti-PA techniques) what it's like to be in the middle so that they can develop the skills to help themselves out of that role.

To borrow from on old saying, teach the girls how to fish (be objective, observant, reason and form their own firm, informed conclusions and core perspectives) rather than just handing them a fish (telling them what to do or think).  Obviously this is a process that you've started, just keep doing it.

My ex and her sister had an abuser uNPD stepfather and a uBPD mother who enabled and supported the SF.  They were never validated in their youth.  For example, they were told (separately, neither knew how much the other was being abused) if they spoke up then they, the children, would be the ones getting in trouble.  How invalidating!  My SIL did not trust her own observations and couldn't make her own conclusions from the facts.  Back in the days when ex and I were married and doing well at that point, we would meet SIL and she would say how bad we were.  By the end of the visit she would agree that we were okay.  Next visit she'd be right back siding with her parents' distorted propaganda.  In effect, she was a leaf blown about by the prevailing winds, not a firmly rooted trees.  She was a piece of driftwood floating in the turbulent waves, not a strong rock along the beach.